England v Wales - let it all out thread

[yappysnap]

First topic message reminder :

To hopefully stop the usual suspects from ruining more threads, could both nations wums just throw all of their toys out of the pram on this one?

Two weeks until the game and already it's like a full moon at the crazy house.

Thanks in advance

[munkian]

I think its fair to say Wales are pretty good at bringing down bring carries on the gain line - Billy will struggle to bully us the way he did against Ireland.

We've also got more heavy carriers than Ireland who will enjoy running down Ford's channel to either make ground or make Farrell do something stupid trying to stop them.

[No 7&1/2]

It will be interesting to see how Wales get on there. Certainy Vunipola looked very good against you at the world cup and Ford has proved him a good tackler, albeit not one who will stop everyone in their tracks. Sure you'll be trying to ask those questions of the 10,12. I think it'll be interesting to see if Jones is tempted to make a change in our back row, Clifford maybe to add extra pace there. What's your thoughts on Lydiate, is he running the risk of being a penalty magnet now with his style of tackling or 2 a couple of unlucky games?

[Poorfour]

- Is there actually a significant difference in experience between these two sides? The England cap count for the Wales game will probably be just under 700. I can't easily find the Welsh stats, but I'd be quite surprised if it's that much higher given the post-RWC turnover in personnel. Gatland has been in place longer than Eddie, obviously, but Eddie's been an international coach for a very long time.

The cap counts from the last two starting teams were:

England (v Ireland): total 527 or 35.1 per man
Wales (v France): total 675 or 45 per man

Roughly 30% more 'experience' overall.  Biggest difference is in the backs (+50%) compared with forwards (+15%)

That's more of a difference than I expected, but it's probably more significant that England are now over the 30-cap average point than the gap between them.

[GavCanDance]

Billy will struggle to bully us the way he did against Ireland.  

Totally.  Was amazed at how many Irish players were trying to bring him down by tackling high above the waist at the weekend.  Tackle his bloody legs Mun!  Can't go anywhere without those!

[munkian]

Billy will struggle to bully us the way he did against Ireland.  

Totally.  Was amazed at how many Irish players were trying to bring him down by tackling high above the waist at the weekend.  Tackle his bloody legs Mun!  Can't go anywhere without those!

Just hope Lydiate is sorting out his tackling.

[nlpnlp]

On paper it seems a no brainer to me: EPCR Quarter Finals – 5 English clubs, 0 Welsh clubs.

Why should England be worried about Wales?  Would there be any doubt if any of the top 4 or 5 English club sides played any of the Welsh regional teams?  I think not.  Yet we are building up this game to be the ‘mighty’ Wales against poor little England.  The big nasty Jamie Roberts and George North versus the nice Owen Farrell and Anthony Watson.

Wales’s one dimensional strength of picking oversized backs should also be their weakness. Whilst Lancaster decided to try and take them on head to head picking the likes of Sam Burgess, I expect Eddie Jones to use his head and try and turn them around with intelligent kicking, run around them and take advantage of the fact Roberts will be rushing out of the line to try and get a cheap shot in on Farrell.

If the referee does not fall for the Welsh scrum collapsing shenanigans, nor allow Lydiate to get away with his consistent no-arms tackles, then I can only see one result.

And one final thought (just in case Wales do manage to somehow beat England), they play an incredibly boring brand of rugby that has had little success against Southern Hemisphere teams, which has resulted in them uniformly failing at the World Cup.  Winning the 6 Nations seems to be the height of their ambitions.  At least England generally try to develop a team and style of play that at least gives them a chance of getting to a World Cup final and even winning one.  For some people the 6 Nations is still the greatest tournament in the world.  In terms of the standard of rugby it is probably 4 or 5 in the rankings.  And winning a World Cup is a much greater achievement than grinding out a set of results to win the 6 Nations.  If Wales carry on playing this low risk, one dimensional rugby, do they really think they ever have a chance of consistently beating the Southern Hemisphere teams or competing in a World Cup final.
Just in case the above isn’t clear, I will be hoping/expecting an England win, not just because we are better at rugby, but because we try and play a better style of rugby.

(This is titled the "let it all out thread".)

[munkian]

Yet you are the first host nation in history not to get out of their group...

[mikey_dragon]

starting to read the usual trash comments now, like we did before the World Cup game. Let's hope for England fans' sake they won't be eating humble pie, as this time it will be an even bigger slice.

[HammerofThunor]

Yet you are the first host nation in history not to get out of their group...

What can I say? We're pioneers

[Scottrf]

Yet you are the first host nation in history not to get out of their group...

Kind of irrelevant though. First home nation to have a group that tough.

I agree with advising caution though. It wont be an easy game.

[GavCanDance]

Just hope Lydiate is sorting out his tackling.

Yeah - he's working on it. 2 weeks and he'll be fine!

Besides, a few more players got away with a LOT worse than Chopper at the weekend...

[Luckless Pedestrian]

One final thought (just in case Wales do manage to somehow beat England), they play an incredibly boring brand of rugby that has had little success against Southern Hemisphere teams, which has resulted in them uniformly failing at the World Cup... If Wales carry on playing this low risk, one dimensional rugby, do they really think they ever have a chance of consistently beating the Southern Hemisphere teams or competing in a World Cup final.

I agree with everything you've said here, and many other Welsh fans will too.

[munkian]

I do love how England will beat boring Wales but IF Wales do win England lose and Wales win the tournament then its irrelevant in comparison to beating the SH teams...

Just a different re-hash of the usual 'winning a RWC in 2003' to defend their frankly poor recent 6 Nations record

[Hoonercat]

starting to read the usual trash comments now, like we did before the World Cup game. Let's hope for England fans' sake they won't be eating humble pie, as this time it will be an even bigger slice.

By that you mean one comment, and by trash you mean any English poster who is confident of a win, while ignoring the vast majority who are unsure of the result, or tipping England based more on loyalty than belief.

[Recwatcher16]

For England, having a SH ref away from home in the 6N has traditionally become a disaster area.
However at home England haven't done too badly (Steve Walsh aside, who thankfully abruptly retired), so in theory the number of soft penalties that Wales were awarded last time should be smaller in number this time.

Wales will then actually have to try passing the ball about, which most of the backs have forgotten how to do at Test level - particularly against SH sides. That either makes then very dangerous or hopeless.
Hoping for a great game.

[munkian]

For England, having a SH ref away from home in the 6N  has traditionally become a disaster area.
However at home England haven't done too badly (Steve Walsh aside, who thankfully abruptly retired), so in theory the number of soft penalties that Wales were awarded last time should be smaller in number this time.

Wales will then actually have to try passing the ball about,  which most of the backs have forgotten how to do at Test level - particularly against SH sides. That either makes then very dangerous or hopeless.
Hoping for a great game.

Or neither ? Can you elaborate on that one ?

[GavCanDance]

Wales will then actually have to try passing the ball about,  which most of the backs have forgotten how to do at Test level - particularly against SH sides. That either makes then very dangerous or hopeless.
Hoping for a great game.

2016 6 Nations stats summarized (thanks to Thunor):

Just to clarify (remembering that Wales have yet to play Italy) England have given away more penalties, received more yellow cards, missed more tackles, lost more lineouts, lost more rucks, conceded more turnovers, made fewer passes, made fewer offloads, beaten fewer defenders.

*NOTE: Steve Walsh was not involved in the making of these stats.

[Jimpy]

starting to read the usual trash comments now, like we did before the World Cup game. Let's hope for England fans' sake they won't be eating humble pie, as this time it will be an even bigger slice.

By that you mean one comment, and by trash you mean any English poster who is confident of a win, while ignoring the vast majority who are unsure of the result, or tipping England based more on loyalty than belief.

And not to mention that all mikey seems to post are....er....trash comments....

[Hoonercat]

Wales will then actually have to try passing the ball about,  which most of the backs have forgotten how to do at Test level - particularly against SH sides. That either makes then very dangerous or hopeless.
Hoping for a great game.

2016 6 Nations stats summarized (thanks to Thunor):

Just to clarify (remembering that Wales have yet to play Italy) England have given away more penalties, received more yellow cards, missed more tackles, lost more lineouts, lost more rucks, conceded more turnovers, made fewer passes, made fewer offloads, beaten fewer defenders.

*NOTE:  Steve Walsh was not involved in the making of these stats.  

Compared to who? All teams?

[Jimpy]

Wales will then actually have to try passing the ball about,  which most of the backs have forgotten how to do at Test level - particularly against SH sides. That either makes then very dangerous or hopeless.
Hoping for a great game.

2016 6 Nations stats summarized (thanks to Thunor):

Just to clarify (remembering that Wales have yet to play Italy) England have given away more penalties, received more yellow cards, missed more tackles, lost more lineouts, lost more rucks, conceded more turnovers, made fewer passes, made fewer offloads, beaten fewer defenders.

*NOTE:  Steve Walsh was not involved in the making of these stats.  

And yet, for all this ineptitude, England are the only team in it that can still win a Grand Slam, or the only home nation that can win a Triple Crown.

Funny that.

[Recwatcher16]

The Welsh centres are not known at Test level for a passing game. Davies always kicks the ball (into space) either due to a lack of pace, can't throw a pass for a winger to run onto or tactically has been told to play territory - take your pick.
However if passing comes off and confidence in their attack grows then Wales have two wingers who despite not being the quickest can finish off from close range. Everyone will then marvel at a natural attacking game.

[Hoonercat]

Just to clarify (remembering that Wales have yet to play Italy) England have given away more penalties, received more yellow cards, missed more tackles, lost more lineouts, lost more rucks, conceded more turnovers, made fewer passes, made fewer offloads, beaten fewer defenders.

*NOTE:  Steve Walsh was not involved in the making of these stats.  

They've also won more lineouts, gained more metres, lost less scrums, had more clean breaks, had more carries, more offloads, and most importantly scored more tries and points, as well as being a more entertaining side to watch - mostly Oh, and won more games
Comparing the stats of two reams who have yet to meet is fairly meaningless, especially when those teams are so well matched.

[munkian]

The Welsh centres are not known at Test level for a passing game. Davies always kicks the ball (into space) either due to a lack of pace, can't throw a pass for a winger to run onto or tactically has been told to play territory - take your pick.
However if passing comes off and confidence in their attack grows then Wales have two wingers who despite not being the quickest can finish off from close range. Everyone will then marvel at a natural attacking game.

So we are damned if we do, damned if we don't ?

[funnyExiledScot]

Wales will then actually have to try passing the ball about,  which most of the backs have forgotten how to do at Test level - particularly against SH sides. That either makes then very dangerous or hopeless.
Hoping for a great game.

2016 6 Nations stats summarized (thanks to Thunor):

Just to clarify (remembering that Wales have yet to play Italy) England have given away more penalties, received more yellow cards, missed more tackles, lost more lineouts, lost more rucks, conceded more turnovers, made fewer passes, made fewer offloads, beaten fewer defenders.

*NOTE:  Steve Walsh was not involved in the making of these stats.  

This is the best Welsh post of the year. Wales are well ahead of the rest in this 6 Nations, morally of course.

[GavCanDance]

Just to clarify (remembering that Wales have yet to play Italy) England have given away more penalties, received more yellow cards, missed more tackles, lost more lineouts, lost more rucks, conceded more turnovers, made fewer passes, made fewer offloads, beaten fewer defenders.

*NOTE:  Steve Walsh was not involved in the making of these stats.  

They've also won more lineouts, gained more metres, lost less scrums, had more clean breaks, had more carries, more offloads, and most importantly scored more tries and points, as well as being a more entertaining side to watch - mostly Oh, and won more games
Comparing the stats of two reams who have yet to meet is fairly meaningless, especially when those teams are so well matched.

But you are forgetting the most important fact - that we still have Italy to thrash whilst you have France to struggle against.    

Agree about being evenly matched though.  I'm not sure how anyone can be confident of their side winning.  It's generally a close affair.  England are 1 match up on us with 58 wins to 57 though, so we are due a win to balance it up.

[GavCanDance]

Wales will then actually have to try passing the ball about,  which most of the backs have forgotten how to do at Test level - particularly against SH sides. That either makes then very dangerous or hopeless.
Hoping for a great game.

2016 6 Nations stats summarized (thanks to Thunor):

Just to clarify (remembering that Wales have yet to play Italy) England have given away more penalties, received more yellow cards, missed more tackles, lost more lineouts, lost more rucks, conceded more turnovers, made fewer passes, made fewer offloads, beaten fewer defenders.

*NOTE:  Steve Walsh was not involved in the making of these stats.  

This is the best Welsh post of the year. Wales are well ahead of the rest in this 6 Nations, morally of course.

It's actually copied and pasted from an England supporters post earlier in the thread, but I'll pretend to be offended if it makes you happy...

That do it for ya?

[funnyExiledScot]

Wales will then actually have to try passing the ball about,  which most of the backs have forgotten how to do at Test level - particularly against SH sides. That either makes then very dangerous or hopeless.
Hoping for a great game.

2016 6 Nations stats summarized (thanks to Thunor):

Just to clarify (remembering that Wales have yet to play Italy) England have given away more penalties, received more yellow cards, missed more tackles, lost more lineouts, lost more rucks, conceded more turnovers, made fewer passes, made fewer offloads, beaten fewer defenders.

*NOTE:  Steve Walsh was not involved in the making of these stats.  

This is the best Welsh post of the year. Wales are well ahead of the rest in this 6 Nations, morally of course.

It's actually copied and pasted from an England supporters post earlier in the thread, but I'll pretend to be offended if it makes you happy...  

That do it for ya?  

Apologies. I thought you were making a point.

[Hoonercat]

Just to clarify (remembering that Wales have yet to play Italy) England have given away more penalties, received more yellow cards, missed more tackles, lost more lineouts, lost more rucks, conceded more turnovers, made fewer passes, made fewer offloads, beaten fewer defenders.

*NOTE:  Steve Walsh was not involved in the making of these stats.  

They've also won more lineouts, gained more metres, lost less scrums, had more clean breaks, had more carries, more offloads, and most importantly scored more tries and points, as well as being a more entertaining side to watch - mostly Oh, and won more games
Comparing the stats of two reams who have yet to meet is fairly meaningless, especially when those teams are so well matched.

But you are forgetting the most important fact - that we still have Italy to thrash whilst you have France to struggle against.    

Agree about being evenly matched though.  I'm not sure how anyone can be confident of their side winning.  It's generally a close affair.  England are 1 match up on us with 58 wins to 57 though, so we are due a win to balance it up.

Which is why stats are meaningless half way through a tournament. Reading through the comments I'd say neither side are over confident with the odd exception. While I think England have played slightly better so far, all that goes out the window when they meet and I honestly haven't got a clue who will win which, being an England fan and with it being a home game, is a bit of a worry.

[yappysnap]

Who are the new players in this Welsh team to look out for?

I know theres the experienced spine that's been around for years, but there has to be a few newbies on there too right?

[lostinwales]

Off the top of my head the props and scrum half are the least experienced. The new scrum halves all seem to be more dangerous than what we have seen in the past. One prop I know nothing about and the other is Sampson Lee, who is either OK or a future legend depending upon which side of the Severn you live.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Scrums should be fine. Wales are running rookies at prop, and they might be promising players but they are still rookies and they won't have faced a scrum as good as ours yet

Is that a fact?

[lostinwales]

Scrums should be fine. Wales are running rookies at prop, and they might be promising players but they are still rookies and they won't have faced a scrum as good as ours yet

Is that a fact?

Its an opinion. Its allowed

[Luckless Pedestrian]

It's just that I don't recall England's scrum demolishing anyone else's so far this tournament.

[Scottrf]

Brookes would boost the scrum a lot. Far better than Dan Cole this season, and Cole has been a liability with regard to penalties. OK he doesn't play 80 but subbing props is normal.

[englandglory4ever]

Wales will then actually have to try passing the ball about,  which most of the backs have forgotten how to do at Test level - particularly against SH sides. That either makes then very dangerous or hopeless.
Hoping for a great game.

2016 6 Nations stats summarized (thanks to Thunor):

Just to clarify (remembering that Wales have yet to play Italy) England have given away more penalties, received more yellow cards, missed more tackles, lost more lineouts, lost more rucks, conceded more turnovers, made fewer passes, made fewer offloads, beaten fewer defenders.

*NOTE:  Steve Walsh was not involved in the making of these stats.  

You forget the bit about England scoring more tries and therefore more points. Something to do with the object of the game is to score more points than the opposition. Hope that helps you out.

[englandglory4ever]

I like this thread. England will win in some style if Eddie is right. He says it was a step up against Ireland and it will be even better against Wales. The Irish mid field was as big if not bigger than Wales and was not a problem. North never gets the ball so he's out of the game. Cuthbert is well, Cuthbert. So no real worries there. Our biggest problem is giving kickable penalties away which we are quite good at unfortunately. We should score 4 or 5 nice tries but Wales could kick 6 penalties if we don't tighten up. But on balance a clear win for England.

[Gwlad]

I like this thread. England will win in some style if Eddie is right. He says it was a step up against Ireland and it will be even better against Wales. The Irish mid field was as big if not bigger than Wales and was not a problem.  North never gets the ball so he's out of the game. Cuthbert is well, Cuthbert. So no real worries there. Our biggest problem is giving kickable penalties away which we are quite good at unfortunately. We should score 4 or 5 nice tries but Wales could kick 6 penalties if we don't tighten up. But on balance a clear win for England.

4/5 nice tries against the best defence in NH rugby?

You are the same englandgloryforever that thinks Sam Burgess was the answer for England's midfield and had potential to be a world class centre?

We'll be fine i think.

[Sgt_Pooly]

We won't score 4/5 tries against Wales.

It totally depends what kind of game it is....cagey or open? I'm going for cagey, especially in the first half. Wales & England are the best sides in the NH at the minute, I doubt many would dispute that. Wales are obviously more settled and have the mental edge imo. It really could go either way, I wouldn't be surprised if either side came away with a narrow margin win, it's that close.

[englandglory4ever]

Are you the same GLad that predicted an Ireland win 3 v 29 ? If you are then I can feel very comfortable about ignoring what you think.

[gregortree]

starting to read the usual trash comments now, like we did before the World Cup game. Let's hope for England fans' sake they won't be eating humble pie, as this time it will be an even bigger slice.

 Well, 
One of us will be eating t' pie.
 Either way ....it will be carnage on this thread whatever happens.

[gregortree]

Are you the same GLad that predicted an Ireland win 3 v 29 ? If you are then I can feel very comfortable about ignoring what you think.

Yes, he is. He must have got a brill price at the bookies, although it didn't actually pay.

[Guest]

Wales will then actually have to try passing the ball about,  which most of the backs have forgotten how to do at Test level - particularly against SH sides. That either makes then very dangerous or hopeless.
Hoping for a great game.

2016 6 Nations stats summarized (thanks to Thunor):

Just to clarify (remembering that Wales have yet to play Italy) England have given away more penalties, received more yellow cards, missed more tackles, lost more lineouts, lost more rucks, conceded more turnovers, made fewer passes, made fewer offloads, beaten fewer defenders.

*NOTE:  Steve Walsh was not involved in the making of these stats.  

This is the best Welsh post of the year. Wales are well ahead of the rest in this 6 Nations, morally of course.

It's actually copied and pasted from an England supporters post earlier in the thread, but I'll pretend to be offended if it makes you happy...  

That do it for ya?  

Just put FES on ignore like I have. He's constantly on the Welsh threads having a pop. He's up there with Mikey (sorry Mikey!) and englandgloryforever, just less aggro so he's allowed to WUM.

[gregortree]

I don't think England need show up. 
Just throw in the jockstraps, hand over the trophy to the Red Orcs and save the players from further injury and humiliation.

[GavCanDance]

You forget the bit about England scoring more tries and therefore more points. Something to do with the object of the game is to score more points than the opposition. Hope that helps you out.

Ahh, NOW I get it!  Silly me!  So if one team were to score, say 30 points...  and the other team were to score, say, ooh I dunno - just 3 points...  then the the team who scored only 3 points would have been well and truly and embarassingly ass-kicked by the other team?!  Got it! Points.  Awesome.  

Thanks for the rugby lesson, friend! 

[englandglory4ever]

That's ok Gav. I won't mention the day England put 60 points on Wales. I was there too. If you want to talk scorelines I'll be happy to do that all day with you. Or the day England scored 62 and Wales got 5. But I won't mention that.

[gregortree]

Haha, t1t, tat, and all of that.

[Gwlad]

That's ok Gav. I won't mention the day England put 60 points on Wales. I was there too. If you want to talk scorelines I'll be happy to do that all day with you. Or the day England scored 62 and Wales got 5. But I won't mention that.

One was a pre RWC warm up

the other a 6 Nations GS decider

Ouch

[stub]

Haha, t1t, tat, and all of that.

Yup, no point really..

[Rugby Fan]

Just remembered we have to do this twice this year. We've got that daft match between England and Wales at Twickenham in May too.

[majesticimperialman]

Rugby Fan

Surely out of the 2 games the one on the twelveth of march is the most important.

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