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6N 2016: Ireland v Italy, 12 March

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Post by George Carlin Sun 06 Mar 2016, 5:05 pm

First topic message reminder :

6N 2016: Ireland v Italy, 12 March - Page 5 Irelan116N 2016: Ireland v Italy, 12 March - Page 5 Italy11
IRELAND v ITALY
12 March 2016
KO: 13:30 GMT
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Live on RTE, DMAX, ITV, FR2 / BBC (H)

Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

16 Played 16
15 Won 1
0 Drawn 0
1 Lost 15
519 Points 209

B. Recent Form

4 October 2015: Olympic Stadium, London, England
16 – 9 to Ireland
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool D

7 February 2015: Stadio Olimpico, Rome
3 – 26 to Ireland
2015 Six Nations Championship

8 March 2014: Aviva Stadium, Dublin
46 – 7 to Ireland
2014 Six Nations Championship

16 March 2013: Stadio Olimpico, Rome
22 – 15 to Italy
2013 Six Nations Championship

25 February 2012: Aviva Stadium, Dublin
42 – 10 to Ireland
2012 Six Nations Championship

C. Teams

IRELAND
6N 2016: Ireland v Italy, 12 March - Page 5 Father10 
[tbc]

ITALY
6N 2016: Ireland v Italy, 12 March - Page 5 Pope-f10
[tbc]
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Post by marty2086 Sat 12 Mar 2016, 7:00 pm

carpet baboon wrote:And the ref today I thought was excellent.

Thought his interpretation of when the ball was out was a unclear as a few times Murray was played by the Italians at rucks

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Post by eirebilly Sat 12 Mar 2016, 7:03 pm

If Redden comes into the squad ahead of Marmion then I will really lose faith in Schmidt. Thought that Marmion played very well when he came on, so well that he may actually be pushing Murray to start.
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Post by carpet baboon Sat 12 Mar 2016, 7:23 pm

marty2086 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:And the ref today I thought was excellent.

Thought his interpretation of when the ball was out was a unclear as a few times Murray was played by the Italians at rucks

I thought the opposite, you could clearly her him telling both sides when he felt the ball was out, the Italians reacted faster a few times, but I was very impressed with his communication

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Post by SecretFly Sat 12 Mar 2016, 9:54 pm

You can only play what turns up. Did Italy turn up to give Ireland an easy game or did Ireland just decide to play some 'Real' open vision, heads-up rugby that chooses space over collision and decided to pass rather than drive headlong into contact.

Ireland took the opportunity from Italy to be Italy - by choosing not to engage in the game Italy were probably expecting to play against us. Ireland were far from slick in the execution at times still but even with the problems of sustaining a rhythm and keeping up concentration through the full 80, they scored nine honest and true tries by choosing to attack a game by creating space and exploiting it to the full.

They won't win over all the critics of course as if they had scored five more tries the howls of just how bad Italy were would be even louder. But for me, it's simply the blueprint they used that enthuses me. It Still has so much work to make it even more fluid. Letting in Italy twice was sloppy and that's where better sides would have punished us more. We still suffer so much when any team puts pace+width on a game against us. Italy are the worst team in the competition and they still managed to show how exposed we get when the ball is sent wide quickly.

But for now it's a step forward in the right direction and it will at least give players an opportunity to play now with more confidence - something every side needs to make those moves and passes actually stick.

So a good day....

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Sat 12 Mar 2016, 11:35 pm

A bit worried that Ireland all of a sudden appear to be clicking. Just in time for our visit next week... Cheers lads! thumbsup
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Post by wolfball Sun 13 Mar 2016, 4:36 am

eirebilly wrote:If Redden comes into the squad ahead of Marmion then I will really lose faith in Schmidt. Thought that Marmion played very well when he came on, so well that he may actually be pushing Murray to start.

I was disappointed with some of Marmion's decision making. He seemed very nervous for his first 10 mins in which is understandable but he took some silly options that he wouldn't have for connacht. He is still light years ahead of present day Reddan.

Also losing faith in Joe; you've been saying that since the RWC no? or is selection of our backup 9 really the final straw Rolling Eyes

Italy are poor but we played very well. We had a skip in our step and besides all the sexy passes and tries, we had actual decent rucking. VDF has been slated (on the munster boards at least) but him and Ryan were two of our best players at the breakdown and the reason we had so much quick ball for the backs. Ross locked the scrum but compared to McGrath- well it's so sad 20% of our front 5 offers nothing outside of set piece. We have ealsily the worst front 5 of tier 1 nations and until one of the THs step up and Henderson returns we will really struggle to beat big teams. Everyone goes on about backs selection but our current front 5 will be eaten alive by SA and positions 11-15 don't matter at all without quick ball.

Murray also had a rocket up his arse. Was great to see. When he plays at pace he is close to the perfect modern 9.

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Post by eirebilly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 6:59 am

wolfball wrote:
eirebilly wrote:If Redden comes into the squad ahead of Marmion then I will really lose faith in Schmidt. Thought that Marmion played very well when he came on, so well that he may actually be pushing Murray to start.



Also losing faith in Joe; you've been saying that since the RWC no? or is selection of our backup 9 really the final straw Rolling Eyes


Not sure where you get that from. I have questioned the game plan before, during and after the RWC but have not said that I am loosing faith in him until yesterday. Its not just about the selection of a back up 9, its about building a squad for the future and when younger, better players are being ignored it frustrates me.
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Post by eirebilly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 8:51 am

Zebo had a great shift in attack from 15 and certainly brought much more than Kearney has done in recent games. That said, against better opposition I feel that his defensive positioning will come more in the spotlight.

I just hope that McCloskey gets another chance at 12 with either Henshaw or Payne at 13 and Henshaw or Payne at 15 against Scotland.

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Post by The Great Aukster Sun 13 Mar 2016, 9:29 am

wolfball wrote:
eirebilly wrote:If Redden comes into the squad ahead of Marmion then I will really lose faith in Schmidt. Thought that Marmion played very well when he came on, so well that he may actually be pushing Murray to start.

I was disappointed with some of Marmion's decision making. He seemed very nervous for his first 10 mins in which is understandable but he took some silly options that he wouldn't have for connacht. He is still light years ahead of present day Reddan.

Also losing faith in Joe; you've been saying that since the RWC no? or is selection of our backup 9 really the final straw Rolling Eyes

Italy are poor but we played very well. We had a skip in our step and besides all the sexy passes and tries, we had actual decent rucking. VDF has been slated (on the munster boards at least) but him and Ryan were two of our best players at the breakdown and the reason we had so much quick ball for the backs. Ross locked the scrum but compared to McGrath- well it's so sad 20% of our front 5 offers nothing outside of set piece. We have ealsily the worst front 5 of tier 1 nations and until one of the THs step up and Henderson returns we will really struggle to beat big teams. Everyone goes on about backs selection but our current front 5 will be eaten alive by SA and positions 11-15 don't matter at all without quick ball.

Murray also had a rocket up his arse. Was great to see. When he plays at pace he is close to the perfect modern 9.

Good Post Wolfball, agree with most of that.

I've yet to see Marmion have a good game in a green shirt, and Joe has to be given credit for taking a risk with him in such a crucial game. There is no doubt he will have to be nurtured carefully, because right now he looks caught in the headlights. Five caps should be enough to have settled down, and he may not have many more chances before McGrath or Sheriden leapfrog him.

Not everyone goes on about the backs - a few of us have been highlighting the pack and specifically the front five where Ireland have a big problem. Thornley pointed out that Joe has used 67 players in his 31 games with 22 getting first caps and considering there are not many more than double that in the professional ranks to pick from, he is spreading the net very wide (although still not wide enough for some).

Someone mentioned the difference between Plumtree and Easterby earlier and forwards coaching is an area the IRFU need to reconsider. The old adage that 'you can't coach height' has allowed someone like Toner to be far more involved in Test rugby than his rugby talent probably should have warranted. Ross is carried in the team because he can scrummage while not doing anything else, Toner is the same version at the lineout. Is this really the way Ireland should go - try to match the size of opposition even if they're not great rugby players? It should be up to the forwards coach to come up with a blend of players that will provide a balanced core and creative ways of dealing with different opposition. The Japan v Boks game is a prime example that Ireland could learn from, but it doesn't seem they have that creative strategic thinking about the pack.

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Post by eirebilly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 9:52 am

The Great Aukster wrote:

Good Post Wolfball, agree with most of that.

I've yet to see Marmion have a good game in a green shirt, and Joe has to be given credit for taking a risk with him in such a crucial game. There is no doubt he will have to be nurtured carefully, because right now he looks caught in the headlights. Five caps should be enough to have settled down, and he may not have many more chances before McGrath or Sheriden leapfrog him.

Not everyone goes on about the backs - a few of us have been highlighting the pack and specifically the front five where Ireland have a big problem. Thornley pointed out that Joe has used 67 players in his 31 games with 22 getting first caps and considering there are not many more than double that in the professional ranks to pick from, he is spreading the net very wide (although still not wide enough for some).

Someone mentioned the difference between Plumtree and Easterby earlier and forwards coaching is an area the IRFU need to reconsider. The old adage that 'you can't coach height' has allowed someone like Toner to be far more involved in Test rugby than his rugby talent probably should have warranted. Ross is carried in the team because he can scrummage while not doing anything else, Toner is the same version at the lineout. Is this really the way Ireland should go - try to match the size of opposition even if they're not great rugby players? It should be up to the forwards coach to come up with a blend of players that will provide a balanced core and creative ways of dealing with different opposition. The Japan v Boks game is a prime example that Ireland could learn from, but it doesn't seem they have that creative strategic thinking about the pack.

No way would Marmion have been on the bench if Redden was available so how does Joe deserve credit for a forced selection?

Every nation experiences injury issues forcing coaches to select debutants. Ireland is going through a very bad patch of injuries over the last season and as such has been forced to pick fringe players.

Selection out of necessity does not equate to great selection policies by a coach.

Ireland clicked yesterday, its something that I have seen Schmidt doing to the team this year and I have said that I didn't mind Ireland loosing if there was a direction in place. Yesterday was exactly how I have been wanting Ireland to play for some time, it was great to see.

My criticism of Schmidt is in the building a squad for the future, he is continually overlooking the younger form players. He seems to be sacrificing long term good for short term glory and I simply do not believe in that.
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Post by englandglory4ever Sun 13 Mar 2016, 11:23 am

I said the other day on this thread that Ireland didn't need to turn up. Italy should have conceded the match and save money for the fans. Well done Ireland but they are really bad and get worse as the tournament goes on. Should Italy really be there? Please don't get too excited about this win. Italy are woeful.

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Post by The Great Aukster Sun 13 Mar 2016, 11:26 am

eirebilly wrote:Every nation experiences injury issues forcing coaches to select debutants. Ireland is going through a very bad patch of injuries over the last season and as such has been forced to pick fringe players.

So given the amount of flux in the main team do you really think it is a good idea to further unsettle the team by making unforced changes as well?

Tinkerman Lancaster was rightly criticised for changing his menu with every latest flavour of the month and never achieving units of settled substance. Successful teams need some degree of consistency.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 13 Mar 2016, 11:35 am

So  if England win next week, Wales beat Italy.

Will the winning line up be

England

Wales

France

Irleand

Scotland

Italy.

So Ireland could finnish in fourth place this 6ns. That is a huge drop from 6ns champions 2 years in a row.

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Post by eirebilly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 11:41 am

Aukster, Maybe you are not understanding me. I want Schmidt to invest in the future. Investing in the future is not having Redden or McFadden in the squad.

Yesterday was the perfect chance to give McCloskey a spot on the bench or even start at 12. McFadden (ok played well) was in there for his versatility, Henshaw has this so why not have given McCloskey the 12 and Henshaw on the bench or vice versa? Zebo, Earls, Payne and Henshaw are all capable of covering several positions so why the need for McFadden's versatility on the bench?

Jackson is another that has been overlooked for what, Madigan's supposed better place kicking? Jackson is by far the better 10 and he should be looked at more.

These are the issues I have with the selection policies from Schmidt and as I have said before, many of the players would not even have been looked at bar injuries so I disagree with statements about Schmidt spreading the net wide when necessity has forced him to do this, not good selection policies.


Last edited by eirebilly on Sun 13 Mar 2016, 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 13 Mar 2016, 11:41 am

Does any one think the Devon Toner will be cited for that punch on the Italy 15.

And if it was a puch why did the ref not go to the TMO?

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Post by wolfball Sun 13 Mar 2016, 12:16 pm

I disagree with Joe on a number of the backs selections. But i posted before the 6 nations our priorities this 6 nations were:

Win 6 nations-failure
RWC ranking points-poor
New set of leaders after so many retirements and injuries-positive with stander and McGrath showing a lot of leadership outside of the old heads we still have.
New style of play- complete overhaul and not just in the italy game. We have played completely differently to the RWC all tournament. Italy game it just clicked better.
Introduce new players- massive success with more new caps introduced than in any other 6 nations? I suspect at least, was not able to find definitive new caps per 6 nations numbers.

Things are far from perfect and the areas I feel we should have focused on (RWC ranking and attempting for a 3 in a row title) we failed at. The areas where we were most positive (new style of play and lots of new players) people are in bizarro world about as that is what defines our campaign!. Again I agree certain players could have played more, but playing those players is not the point of the 6 nations in my view and them not playing every game is not a failure for ireland. Losing is a failure for ireland. We need to stop losing. I hate to see us lose with a passion. Few things upset me in the world but I'm a grumpy bollox for 2 days after ireland lose. Is seeing player X play in a losing ireland team so much better then seeing ireland utilize a gameplan to win regardless of personel?. Ireland winning silverware (or a SA tour this year) is what really matters. We can disagree on that of course, but I really don't understand the quibbling over 2/3/4/5 choice in their position selection calls when there are way more important things. It makes me sick with envy to watch England Wales yesterday and know at game 3 we weren't even in with a chance at the tournament.

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Post by SecretFly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 12:29 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:So  if England win next week, Wales beat Italy.

Will the winning line up be

England

Wales

France

Irleand

Scotland

Italy.

So Ireland could finnish in fourth place this 6ns. That is a huge drop from 6ns champions 2 years in a row.

Ireland getting to 4th this year would be a bonus after the start they've had and the games they've conceded. I don't think any Irish fan would need to get to next week to categorize how disappointing this 6N has been.

It has been disappointing - but from even before it started you'll find that most Irish commentators, the coach himself and knowledgeable fans were quite prepared to contemplate this being a bit of a painful 6N for us with a mid table placing at best.

We have a lot of work to do to get ourselves back to a seasonally competitive side ready to take on yet another stab at yet another WC. And as I've said before, that journey has to start somewhere. Europe is seeing quite a number of new faces show up in an Irish shirt - names most casual 6N rugby observers won't have a clue about. When you think about it, it's been a long time since most casual watchers of 6N couldn't still sound off virtually an entire team of well known Irish names to them.

So I'm satisfied with this season overall - a draw against what will probably now be the runner-up team, a squeezed loss to France away, and what I reckon to be the only solid, no-excuses loss so far to favourites for the title England at Twickers. Frustrating campaign of course but when looking at where we've been coming from and where we need to get to - not bad at all.

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Post by eirebilly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 12:32 pm

I am not down beat about this campaign for Ireland, I have actually enjoyed the style of play that Ireland are attempting. I just feel that the wrong players were selected in the wrong positions for this style.

lets not kid ourselves that Italy were good yesterday, they were absolutely dire but Ireland played extremely well.

I just want Ireland to focus on long term gain over short term glory and I feel that is to be done by giving players like McCloskey and Jackson time in the team and forming familiar partnerships.

I have been immensely impressed with v/d Flier, Dillane and CJ.
CJ has provided Heaslip with some healthy competition and as such, Heaslip has played some excellent rugby.
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Post by Notch Sun 13 Mar 2016, 12:37 pm

Why I said Schmist was validated was because the players he selected may not have been the best 23 individuals but we showed a fluency and a familiarity together that makes the decision to stick with what we knew quite acceptable.

Could it have been another back three player on the bench? Could we have had a different 10? Sure, but these questions are ultimately subjective- what matters is whether or not the players who were selected delivered and they did.

I think we also saw that the alleged lack of creativity in the centres isn't down to either Henshaw or Payne not being creative players, both passed very well, threw good offloads, showed great footwork- its down to much better defences taking their options away very, very quickly. Italy didn't do what England or Wales can do in shutting down our attack and we saw that actually these players do have the class we see them demonstrate when they play at a lower level. What they don't have is the platform from the forwards to give them that space against the top teams, or the momentum you'd get from someone making that big line break... This actually makes the case for McCloskey because it is still striking to me that the reason for our bluntness isn't so much a lack of creativity but a lack of gain line busters and a lack of genuine pace out wide. Sometimes we get the ball to the wing, and they have to cut back inside as they don't have the out and out gas. We're also too often trying to play off static ball and it makes our centres look like lesser players than they actually are as the only choice is to truck it up.. In that case we may as well pick a big centre who can do that and maybe get some momentum back into our game.

Beating this Italy team doesn't make us a great team, at all. But losing pretty narrowly to England and France and drawing with Wales doesn't make us a bad team either. All our results need to be put into perspective. Watching Wales' performance at Twickenham I really believe we are currently on a par with them, as our draw at the start suggested. Only England look capable of challenging the SH. But next year I believe we have the ability to be in the mix for the title again. I'm not too disappointed with where we are. By far and away the biggest issue facing us is our tight five. Tour to South Africa will sort the men from the boys in that respect- my fear is there are more boys than men available to us.

Looking forward to next week as it's a pretty good Scotland team and will be a good indicator of where we are going.
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Post by SecretFly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 12:46 pm

McCloskey is the new buzz word it seems on these threads.... the new 'Zebo' - the hero on the sidelines that ain't been given the chance to be a contender!!!

I'll bet Zebo is disappointed that the circus and the 'Citizen's Hero' role has moved away from him and his 'secret carpark deepthroat encounter with Joe Schmidt on that dark and foggy city night some years ago'.........................................

Or is Zeebs much too busy rewatching the heroics of his fine day out in the 15 shirt????   Zeebs is too busy to the people's champion these days as Joe eases him into a role he's now probably destined for - successor to Rob Kearney.

The moral...stop being impatient for players.  Joe knows what he's doing with the players at his disposal.  As wolfball says, it is always and always has been about the brand of rugby we choose to play rather than the precise players used to play it.  It's not (or shouldn't be) about constructing a gameplan around the disparate skillsets of individual players but in forcing all players to approach the game with a common overview so that any player can slot in and execute.

A shout out too for the two 'clowns' of the continuing Irish 'Selection Gaff' commentary circus.  Mad McFad and Mad Igan!   I'll bet some folks here were coughing into their beer and growling at the TV as those two lads helped wrap up the bizz with style.....

Oh dear....and neither of them are named McCloskey..........................  long chattering week ahead for the opinion makers of 606 Wink

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Post by SecretFly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 12:50 pm

BTW... not directed at your comments Notch (was written before I saw them) - just a general comment on the hype beginning to encircle McCloskey on these threads

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Post by Notch Sun 13 Mar 2016, 12:52 pm

It is true. Now Zebo is in we have another cause celebre Smile

It is always the way with us fans. Has been amusing reading certain fans (not on here, other forums and Facebook) barely able to hide their disappointment that Madigan and McFadden actually played well.
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Post by eirebilly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 12:58 pm

SecretFly wrote:

A shout out too for the two 'clowns' of the continuing Irish 'Selection Gaff' commentary circus.  Mad McFad and Mad Igan!   I'll bet some folks here were coughing into their beer and growling at the TV as those two lads helped wrap up the bizz with style.....

Oh dear....and neither of them are named McCloskey..........................  long chattering week ahead for the opinion makers of 606 Wink

So you think that McCloskey should continue to be ignored (unless massive injury crisis) when he is obviously the future 12 with Henshaw at 13?

You are happy with Madigan being there due to his versatility when clearly Jackson is the better 10 and natural successor to Sexton when he retires?

For the record, I was happy for both Madigan and McFadden yesterday but that does not change my views on the future. These two McCloskey and Jackson (along with others) have to be a part of the side now so that they can build familiarity and partnerships for Ireland.

Cant see anything clownish about that mode of thought...
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Post by eirebilly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 1:13 pm

Got a feeling I am going to receive a 20 paragraphed response from Fly now Wink
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Post by SecretFly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 1:19 pm

eirebilly wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

A shout out too for the two 'clowns' of the continuing Irish 'Selection Gaff' commentary circus.  Mad McFad and Mad Igan!   I'll bet some folks here were coughing into their beer and growling at the TV as those two lads helped wrap up the bizz with style.....

Oh dear....and neither of them are named McCloskey..........................  long chattering week ahead for the opinion makers of 606 Wink

So you think that McCloskey should continue to be ignored (unless massive injury crisis) when he is obviously the future 12 with Henshaw at 13?

You are happy with Madigan being there due to his versatility when clearly Jackson is the better 10 and natural successor to Sexton when he retires?

For the record, I was happy for both Madigan and McFadden yesterday but that does not change my views on the future. These two McCloskey and Jackson (along with others) have to be a part of the side now so that they can build familiarity and partnerships for Ireland.

Cant see anything clownish about that mode of thought...

I don't think he's being 'ignored'.  He's being processed.  One line.....................................

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Post by eirebilly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 1:25 pm

You let me down there Fly Wink

Of course he is being ignored, just like Jackson. He only got that one game due to injuries.
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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 13 Mar 2016, 1:31 pm

Who was the replacement scrum half that came on for Ireland.

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Post by SecretFly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 1:32 pm

So with McCloskey we beat England fairly and squarely out the door, playing a rampaging centre led assault on Twickers, ..... and without him, we didn't get 15 tries against appalling Italy? Okay, billy. Noted. Wink

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Post by SecretFly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 1:33 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Who was the replacement scrum half that came on for Ireland.

Kieran Marmion - Connacht.

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Post by eirebilly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 1:35 pm

Yeah comparing playing England in Twickers (fav's for the Slam) and a woeful Italian team at home is the way to judge things Fly Wink

Maj, It was Marmion, he is a very very good 9 in the making.
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Post by SecretFly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 1:40 pm

It's a results based bizz, billy. Ain't that the new buzzword in these professional times? I still say you're being much too impatient about McCloskey. He'll probably go to SA..................... now there is a test for the big lad if he gets a shot at a game. Head down time for McCloskey and time to think about what he'll bring to the party if and when he's selected again.... which might be next week for all we know.

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Post by asoreleftshoulder Sun 13 Mar 2016, 1:41 pm

eirebilly wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

A shout out too for the two 'clowns' of the continuing Irish 'Selection Gaff' commentary circus.  Mad McFad and Mad Igan!   I'll bet some folks here were coughing into their beer and growling at the TV as those two lads helped wrap up the bizz with style.....

Oh dear....and neither of them are named McCloskey..........................  long chattering week ahead for the opinion makers of 606 Wink

So you think that McCloskey should continue to be ignored (unless massive injury crisis) when he is obviously the future 12 with Henshaw at 13?

You are happy with Madigan being there due to his versatility when clearly Jackson is the better 10 and natural successor to Sexton when he retires?

For the record, I was happy for both Madigan and McFadden yesterday but that does not change my views on the future. These two McCloskey and Jackson (along with others) have to be a part of the side now so that they can build familiarity and partnerships for Ireland.

Cant see anything clownish about that mode of thought...

McCloskey is 3rd choice centre so it won't take an injury crisis ,just one injury or knock.Personally I think we have to keep Payne at 13,our defense is so much better with him there.It's still too narrow but at least we generate linespeed,without him it's both narrow and passive.This has to be sorted by the Summer,I can give the team a pass for now as we're operating without a defense coach.

I'd like to see McCloskey - Payne tried out ,then Marshall is also in the frame as a guy who has been doing really well and already has international experience.Long term I think we are looking at Henshaw,McCloskey battling it out at 12 while Ringrose and Marshall are our 13's.There might be a few more coming through as well,Arnold looks good and should get some gametime now he's moving to Munster.

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Post by Guest Sun 13 Mar 2016, 1:43 pm

I enjoyed yesterdays game, but still think McCloskey and Jackson should have been involved, and would still like to see Payne tried at 15.
It would be a bit fickle to think that Ireland had turned a corner, or that Schmidts selection policy was vindicated, in a game against a woeful Italy. It also ignores the fact that form players are not really being given a chance, unless those chances are forced through injury.
Still, hopefully that game has given a bit of a lift, and we will face Scotland with confidence.

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Post by SecretFly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 1:49 pm

Why should Payne be tried at 15 though?

Why not simply allow Zebo to bed down now into the role for the rest of the year..(good or bad results). Allow something to settle and develop. Zebo is 25 and has shown to have enough buzz about him to offer something new at 15 over the old and predictable from Kearney.
Payne is already 30 and has played all his time as 13 with Ireland. What has Payne got that Zebo hasn't the talents to hone at 15 over the next season or so?

I think the rush to push, pull and tug names around the team to find this elusive 'balance' can become a bit of a musical chair joke, in the talking about it anyway.

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Post by Sin é Sun 13 Mar 2016, 1:52 pm

Schmidt is Maggie Thatcher Mark II. He made his mind up on who he wants playing where and when, and he is not for turning.

Some of his selections I can understand such as using Payne at 13 for his experience & maturity and not considering him at 15 because of his age which is the same as the encumbent, Rob K.

He has decided that Henshaw is 12 and that is probably the reason Henshaw is moving to Leinster. I can't see how much better Henshaw is over McCloskey - Henshaw is just lucky he got his nose in front of McCloskey.

I can't wait to see if Zebo will be dropped for Rob K next week though!



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Post by Guest Sun 13 Mar 2016, 1:53 pm

SecretFly wrote:Why should Payne be tried at 15 though?

Why not simply allow Zebo to bed down now into the role for the rest of the year..(good or bad results).  Allow something to settle and develop.  Zebo is 25 and has shown to have enough buzz about him to offer something new at 15 over the old and predictable from Kearney.
Payne is already 30 and has played all his time as 13 with Ireland.  What has Payne got that Zebo hasn't the talents to hone at 15 over the next season or so?

I think the rush to push, pull and tug names around the team to find this elusive 'balance' can become a bit of a musical chair joke, in the talking about it anyway.

Because he's the best fullback in Ireland, and Zebo is a wing all day long. Zebo did well yesterday, but I'm not allowing myself to get carried away on a performance against an understrength Italy. We absolutely destroys Scotland, last season, and then struggled against a poor Italy in the RWC.....

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Post by SecretFly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 1:59 pm

No way is Zebo only a wing. I see Zebo getting more opportunity to be 'Zebo' at 15 than on the wing. The wing is too slim a line for him waiting for others to start the creative process.
But still...the truth is he's 25 and Payne is 30. The WC is 4 years away. The WC will need once again, the pace and vigour of youth to cut anything positive from it.

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Post by SecretFly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 2:03 pm

Sin é wrote:Schmidt is Maggie Thatcher Mark II. He made his mind up on who he wants playing where and when, and he is not for turning.

That's a coach for you...seldom listens to the armchair assistants Wink  How very strange.

Meanwhile, what did I say about POC holding back the more adventurous attack patterns from Ireland, sin?  What did I say about POC being so central that the plans had to be adapted to suit his 'game' more.  And now we're seeing the tendrils of Ireland beginning now to use the flush of youth to speed it up a bit.  The oracle speaks  Cool



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Post by asoreleftshoulder Sun 13 Mar 2016, 2:08 pm

Sin é wrote:Schmidt is Maggie Thatcher Mark II. He made his mind up on who he wants playing where and when, and he is not for turning.

Some of his selections I can understand such as using Payne at 13 for his experience & maturity and not considering him at 15 because of his age which is the same as the encumbent, Rob K.

He has decided that Henshaw is 12 and that is probably the reason Henshaw is moving to Leinster. I can't see how much better Henshaw is over McCloskey - Henshaw is just lucky he got his nose in front of McCloskey.

I can't wait to see if Zebo will be dropped for Rob K next week though!




How many 6N's and HC's did Maggie Thatcher win?


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Post by Guest Sun 13 Mar 2016, 2:12 pm

SecretFly wrote:No way is Zebo only a wing.  I see Zebo getting more opportunity to be 'Zebo' at 15 than on the wing.  The wing is too slim a line for him waiting for others to start the creative process.
But still...the truth is he's 25 and Payne is 30.  The WC is 4 years away.  The WC will need once again, the pace and vigour of youth to cut anything positive from it.

Payne won't be with Ireland for the next RWC, but neither will Best, SOB, Healy, Trimble and so on. It's about trying to win games now, and bring the young blood through at the same time. It is a balance, but the argument now is that some form players, those viewed as the future for Ireland, are not being given a fair chance. Do you think we would have lost to Italy playing Payne at FB, with McCloskey at Centre? or Henshaw at FB, with Payne at centre? We wouldn't have lost.

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Post by Sin é Sun 13 Mar 2016, 2:21 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:Schmidt is Maggie Thatcher Mark II. He made his mind up on who he wants playing where and when, and he is not for turning.

That's a coach for you...seldom listens to the armchair assistants Wink  How very strange.

Meanwhile, what did I say about POC holding back the more adventurous attack patterns from Ireland, sin?  What did I say about POC being so central that the plans had to be adapted to suit his 'game' more.  And now we're seeing the tendrils of Ireland beginning now to use the flush of youth to speed it up a bit.  The oracle speaks  Cool

Thats cowpat and you know it. How well did the lineout do v. England?

This is worth a read.

http://www.andymcgeady.com/lineoutmaths/
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Post by Sin é Sun 13 Mar 2016, 2:25 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:Schmidt is Maggie Thatcher Mark II. He made his mind up on who he wants playing where and when, and he is not for turning.

Some of his selections I can understand such as using Payne at 13 for his experience & maturity and not considering him at 15 because of his age which is the same as the encumbent, Rob K.

He has decided that Henshaw is 12 and that is probably the reason Henshaw is moving to Leinster. I can't see how much better Henshaw is over McCloskey - Henshaw is just lucky he got his nose in front of McCloskey.

I can't wait to see if Zebo will be dropped for Rob K next week though!


How many 6N's and HC's did Maggie Thatcher win?


She won a load of British elections. She eventually met her end though.
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Post by SecretFly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 2:27 pm

It's bullschit with meaning Sin, and you know it. Those old knees needed protection. Wink

We've arrived at the Schmidt era!!!!!...finally Run Yahoo

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Post by SecretFly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 2:30 pm

Munchkin wrote:
SecretFly wrote:No way is Zebo only a wing.  I see Zebo getting more opportunity to be 'Zebo' at 15 than on the wing.  The wing is too slim a line for him waiting for others to start the creative process.
But still...the truth is he's 25 and Payne is 30.  The WC is 4 years away.  The WC will need once again, the pace and vigour of youth to cut anything positive from it.

Payne won't be with Ireland for the next RWC, but neither will Best, SOB, Healy, Trimble and so on. It's about trying to win games now, and bring the young blood through at the same time. It is a balance, but the argument now is that some form players, those viewed as the future for Ireland, are not being given a fair chance. Do you think we would have lost to Italy playing Payne at FB, with McCloskey at Centre? or Henshaw at FB, with Payne at centre? We wouldn't have lost.

?? Is Zebo not part of that future?  He has a few more years left in him hopefully.  Shouldn't he be let get a full time job with Ireland now after the long apprenticeship and part-time work?  Why should Zebo give room yet again so that a full timer (Payne) can let another rookie in?

How long does a rookie have to be one before he gets a full time slot?  Zebo should now be full time 15 until old Kearney pulls up his socks (not Zebo's...his own) Wink

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Post by asoreleftshoulder Sun 13 Mar 2016, 2:33 pm

Munchkin wrote:
SecretFly wrote:No way is Zebo only a wing.  I see Zebo getting more opportunity to be 'Zebo' at 15 than on the wing.  The wing is too slim a line for him waiting for others to start the creative process.
But still...the truth is he's 25 and Payne is 30.  The WC is 4 years away.  The WC will need once again, the pace and vigour of youth to cut anything positive from it.

Payne won't be with Ireland for the next RWC, but neither will Best, SOB, Healy, Trimble and so on. It's about trying to win games now, and bring the young blood through at the same time. It is a balance, but the argument now is that some form players, those viewed as the future for Ireland, are not being given a fair chance. Do you think we would have lost to Italy playing Payne at FB, with McCloskey at Centre? or Henshaw at FB, with Payne at centre? We wouldn't have lost.

Healy and SoB will be at the next WC injuries and form permitting.

Why use Payne at FB if he doesn't plan to use him there long term,same thing with Henshaw.I can see an argument for McCloskey starting ahead of Henshaw for sure.

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Post by asoreleftshoulder Sun 13 Mar 2016, 2:35 pm

Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:Schmidt is Maggie Thatcher Mark II. He made his mind up on who he wants playing where and when, and he is not for turning.

Some of his selections I can understand such as using Payne at 13 for his experience & maturity and not considering him at 15 because of his age which is the same as the encumbent, Rob K.

He has decided that Henshaw is 12 and that is probably the reason Henshaw is moving to Leinster. I can't see how much better Henshaw is over McCloskey - Henshaw is just lucky he got his nose in front of McCloskey.

I can't wait to see if Zebo will be dropped for Rob K next week though!


How many 6N's and HC's did Maggie Thatcher win?


She won a load of British elections. She eventually met her end though.

Did she ever pick a guy at 13 when the public were baying for him to be moved to FB?

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Post by Guest Sun 13 Mar 2016, 2:35 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
SecretFly wrote:No way is Zebo only a wing.  I see Zebo getting more opportunity to be 'Zebo' at 15 than on the wing.  The wing is too slim a line for him waiting for others to start the creative process.
But still...the truth is he's 25 and Payne is 30.  The WC is 4 years away.  The WC will need once again, the pace and vigour of youth to cut anything positive from it.

Payne won't be with Ireland for the next RWC, but neither will Best, SOB, Healy, Trimble and so on. It's about trying to win games now, and bring the young blood through at the same time. It is a balance, but the argument now is that some form players, those viewed as the future for Ireland, are not being given a fair chance. Do you think we would have lost to Italy playing Payne at FB, with McCloskey at Centre? or Henshaw at FB, with Payne at centre? We wouldn't have lost.

?? Is Zebo not part of that future?  He has a few more years left in him hopefully.  Shouldn't he be let get a full time job with Ireland now after the long apprenticeship and part-time work?  Why should Zebo give room yet again so that a full timer (Payne) can let another rookie in?

How long does a rookie have to be one before he gets a full time slot?  Zebo should now be full time 15 until old Kearney pulls up his socks (not Zebo's...his own) Wink

Who said Zebo wasn't part of the future?

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Post by SecretFly Sun 13 Mar 2016, 2:42 pm

Munchkin wrote:

Who said Zebo wasn't part of the future?

Well he needs a position. 15 looks like one he could handle IF finally allowed time in one position as a Regular.

He's done the apprenticeship and has much to offer in attack. Personally speaking, I don't think he'll find it on the wing but has promise at 15.

So... if he's part of the future why should he be dropped off the team one more time to push Payne back there?

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Post by Guest Sun 13 Mar 2016, 2:43 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
SecretFly wrote:No way is Zebo only a wing.  I see Zebo getting more opportunity to be 'Zebo' at 15 than on the wing.  The wing is too slim a line for him waiting for others to start the creative process.
But still...the truth is he's 25 and Payne is 30.  The WC is 4 years away.  The WC will need once again, the pace and vigour of youth to cut anything positive from it.

Payne won't be with Ireland for the next RWC, but neither will Best, SOB, Healy, Trimble and so on. It's about trying to win games now, and bring the young blood through at the same time. It is a balance, but the argument now is that some form players, those viewed as the future for Ireland, are not being given a fair chance. Do you think we would have lost to Italy playing Payne at FB, with McCloskey at Centre? or Henshaw at FB, with Payne at centre? We wouldn't have lost.

Healy and SoB will be at the next WC injuries and form permitting.

Why use Payne at FB if he doesn't plan to use him there long term,same thing with Henshaw.I can see an argument for McCloskey starting ahead of Henshaw for sure.

You're an incredible optimist if you think Healy and SOB will represent Ireland in the next world cup, although you provide the caveat of injury and form.

The reason for Payne at FB, is that Payne is the form player in Ireland, at the moment. Henshaw isn't a 12, and there's a sense that we are not getting the best of him in that position, so should either switch to 13, or 15. If Ireland were to use players in possibly the best positions, we would likely see Payne at 15, McCloskey at 12 and Hendhaw at 13. If we played our form players, we would also see Jackson ahead of Madigan.

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Post by Guest Sun 13 Mar 2016, 2:48 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Munchkin wrote:

Who said Zebo wasn't part of the future?

Well he needs a position.  15 looks like one he could handle IF finally allowed time in one position as a Regular.

He's done the apprenticeship and has much to offer in attack.  Personally speaking, I don't think he'll find it on the wing but has promise at 15.

So... if he's part of the future why should he be dropped off the team one more time to push Payne back there?

He's got a position - Wing. Why use him at 15 when Payne is the form player there? Not that Zebo won't eventually make a great 15, none of us know, but we do know if Payne moves to 15, the better option right now, that allows McCloskey and Henshaw in the centre. Zebo moving there doesn't allow for that.

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