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6N 2016 : Super Saturday Game 2 Ireland vs Scotland Dublin 17h00 KO

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Mon 14 Mar 2016, 7:59 pm

First topic message reminder :

6N 2016 : Super Saturday Game 2 Ireland vs Scotland Dublin 17h00 KO - Page 8 Irelan10    6N 2016 : Super Saturday Game 2 Ireland vs Scotland Dublin 17h00 KO - Page 8 Scot_f10
IRELAND v SCOTLAND
19 March 2016
KO: 17:00 local
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Referee: Pascal Gauzere
Assistant Referees: Craig Joubert (South Africa) & Alexandre Ruiz (France)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

130 Played 130
59 Won 66
5 Drawn 5
66 Lost 59
1,416 Points 1,420

B. Recent Form

21 March 2015
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
10 – 40 to Ireland

2 February 2014
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
28 – 6 to Ireland

24 February 2013
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
12 – 8 to Scotland

10 March 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
32 – 14 to Ireland

6 August 2011
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
10 – 6 to Scotland

27 February 2011
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
18 – 21 to Ireland

20 March 2010
Croke Park, Dublin
20 – 23 to Scotland

C. Teams

IRELAND
6N 2016 : Super Saturday Game 2 Ireland vs Scotland Dublin 17h00 KO - Page 8 Laura-lacole-all-people-photo-u2
FB 15 Simon Zebo
RW 14 Andrew Trimble
OC 13 Jared Payne
IC 12 Robbie Henshaw
LW 11 Keith Earls
FH 10 Jonathan Sexton
SH 9 Conor Murray

N8 8 Jamie Heaslip
OF 7 Tommy O'Donnell
BF 6 CJ Stander
RL 5 Devin Toner
LL 4 Donnacha Ryan
TP 3 Mike Ross
HK 2 Rory Best (c)
LP 1 Jack McGrath

Replacements:
HK 16 Richardt Strauss
PR 17 Cian Healy
PR 18 Nathan White
LK 19 Ultan Dillane
FL 20 Rhys Ruddock
SH 21 Eoin Reddan
FH 22 Ian Madigan
WG 23 Fergus McFadden

SCOTLAND
6N 2016 : Super Saturday Game 2 Ireland vs Scotland Dublin 17h00 KO - Page 8 2AowKnX
FB 15 Stuart Hogg
RW 14 Tommy Seymour
OC 13 Duncan Taylor
IC 12 Alex Dunbar
LW 11 Tim Visser
FH 10 Duncan Weir
SH 9 Greig Laidlaw (c)

N8 8 Ryan Wilson
OF 7 John Hardie
BF 6 John Barclay
RL 5 Tim Swinson
LL 4 Richie Gray
TP 3 WP Nel
HK 2 Ross Ford
LP 1 Alasdair Dickinson

Replacements:
HK 16 Stuart McInally
PR 17 Rory Sutherland
PR 18 Moray Low
FL 19 Rob Harley
FL 20 Josh Strauss
SH 21 Henry Pyrgos
CE 22 Peter Horne
WG 23 Sean Lamont

Could be a cracker guys!  guinness
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Post by Pot Hale Sun 20 Mar 2016, 12:02 am

SecretFly wrote:
clivemcl wrote:I just can't like Sexton! Never could. He's not become more likeable with age. Even as an Irish fan, when he scores, I applaude a little less vigorously than I normally would.

Yeah, that makes senses okay..as Sexton defends for his life and gets the massive hits all through the Championship, and helps the team a lot of times to their tries.

Yep, it's nice to be an Irish fan and applaud less when one of its central cogs scores.   Is this a Paddy Jackson alias?

This. +100.
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Post by theslosty Sun 20 Mar 2016, 4:31 am

Just viewed the Sexton incident - quite frankly the criticism is ridiculous.

People are expecting the highest moral standards from someone who's just been thrown head into the ground WWE style! Of course the "heat of the moment" excuse doesn't always fly but you've got to give some leeway there.

I doubt many of those criticising him have played competitive rugby or indeed any sport.
When something like that happens rational behaviour goes out the window - even Jesus/Ghandi type figure would have had the red mist descend.

P.S. Joe Schmidt has pretty much implied he will be leaving after the SA tour - hardly breaking news but haven't seen it discussed yet, maybe I missed something
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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Sun 20 Mar 2016, 5:38 am

That sort of behaviour should be beneath a guy like Sexton. However it was a clear yellow without any of Sexton's "acting".

Furthermore Peter Stringer that is one of the most vulgar, and blatantly provocative posts I have ever seen on this forum shame on you. mad

P.S. I know his views are not representative of Irish views on here Hug

One thing I will say, yesterday's match was a cracker. Ireland thoroughly deserved their win and Scotland played their part in the match. I can't help but think the match would have been so much better for both teams if we had a referee who was just a bit less whistle happy at the breakdown.
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Post by George Carlin Sun 20 Mar 2016, 5:50 am

Seen a bit more of the game now.

From a jock perspective:

1. We were bad. Really. In comparison to the control and discipline we had against the French and Italians, that was just really, really bad. There isn't another word. Bad. We were bad. And we cannot blame Irish pressure for a lot of these. The foot of the nation must be like Swiss cheese this morning with the number of self inflicted bullet holes in it. I would be a bit upset if some people watched this game and then concluded that's where this Scotland side is. It's not. We're much, much better than that.

2. Ireland still have to get at least a quarter of their starters back. Imagine Sean O'Brien had been playing against Wilson? It could have been worse and we need to be aware of that.

3. It was as we thought. Jonny Gray and Finn Russell are two irreplaceable players and if you watched the game in detail we missed them desperately. Nel clearly missed the extra weight and leverage in the scrum and the backline almost visibly winced when Weir got the ball. We need Gilchrist back and we need Cotter to realise that Weir should be put out to pasture and Jackson is the vice president.

4. I don't think that "tactics" had anything to do with the Irish win whatsoever. Neither side magically manufactured a new game plan for the opposition in this match.

5. Cotter has a history of giving players a run in tournaments and then making a decision about them. Let's hope to hell that Cotter now sees what we all do and that Ryan Wilson is left in the kebab shop in future.

6. I met Jonny Sexton twice. The second time didn't do much to change to change my initial view that whilst he was something of a little gobsh!te, it's difficult to remain normal if you've won 2 Heineken Cups and been a test Lion before your 30th birthday. Don't really have much to say about the card. When it went to the TMO and was pasted on the big screen for the home crowd to scream at, it was curtains. And so the world turns.

Well done Ireland, mind.
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Post by RDW Sun 20 Mar 2016, 8:15 am

Your 1st point is key GC - against France we made something like 3 errors. Against Ireland it must have been at least 30.

We kicked straight into touch from a restart twice at key moments, hogg and Seymour clattering into each other, any time Weir touched the ball etc.

There was a 3 minute spell in the first half where we just imploded like we did against the Welsh, and the game was lost.

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Post by Exiledinborders Sun 20 Mar 2016, 8:25 am

theslosty wrote:Just viewed the Sexton incident - quite frankly the criticism is ridiculous.

People are expecting the highest moral standards from someone who's just been thrown head into the ground WWE style! Of course the "heat of the moment" excuse doesn't always fly but you've got to give some leeway there.
Had he been thrown headfirst into the ground there would have been a good reason for holding his head. As it was he landed on his back and the play acting was pure Wendyball.

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Post by eirebilly Sun 20 Mar 2016, 8:42 am

I really enjoyed that match although I thought the ref handled the breakdown very poorly. I cant remember who the Scottish player was but he made an excellent turnover and was penalised for the first Irish penalty, that was the point when I thought Scotland's main strength would be negated by the ref.

I cant see how people are defending Sexton's play acting, it was simply poor and did not require that reaction.

As an Irish fan, I am very happy with the result and the progress made. If I was a Scottish fan I would be very disappointed with that performance.

Heaslip had a very good game but I fail to see how he beat CJ Stander to the MoTM award...
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Post by Pot Hale Sun 20 Mar 2016, 10:44 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
theslosty wrote:Just viewed the Sexton incident - quite frankly the criticism is ridiculous.

People are expecting the highest moral standards from someone who's just been thrown head into the ground WWE style! Of course the "heat of the moment" excuse doesn't always fly but you've got to give some leeway there.
Had he been thrown headfirst into the ground there would have been a good reason for holding his head. As it was he landed on his back and the play acting was pure Wendyball.

You're right, Sexton didn't land on his head. He was injured by Dunbar kneeing him forcefully in the head (by accident) before he threw Sexton out of the ruck.

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Post by Engine#4 Sun 20 Mar 2016, 12:16 pm

Sexton may have made contact with the turf arm first but his head quite clearly bounced off it as well. Not sure how anyone can claim to know whether his head hurt as much as he made out.

Either way I don't really care, the man has been subject to late hits in every game this tournament. It's gotten to the point where it looks systematic and he's right to draw attention to it. Dunbar's judo throw was ridiculous.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Sun 20 Mar 2016, 12:18 pm

Let's not get hung up on this. It was a great game and this shouldn't be the talking point.

Dunbar was rightly yellow carded but Sexton had a wee bit of a play act. Case closed.

How for the Irish lads feel they are placed for their summer tour?
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Post by 123456789 Sun 20 Mar 2016, 12:39 pm

If I had to put it down to a few points:

1. Our strength in depth was exposed, as well as I thought Swinson played yesterday he simply is not anywhere near Jonny Gray's level and I think the potential of the scrum as a weapon was severely diminished by the loss of Gray's bulk. Weir was poor, if you're a "kicking" fly half you simply should not be putting kick offs straight into touch and clearances out on the full. Furthermore, if we'd started with Jackson or with Horne we could have repeated a similar game plan that had been so successful by playing Weir it changes the entire dynamic. Wilson looked very small and very underpowered as well, in an era of supertight kits you want your number 8 to at least fill it out.

2. Scotland's naivety was breathtaking, for what it's worth I think the Irish probably highlighted something to the referee about Scotland's work at the break down and the referee cracked down as a result, I do think he was very poor in that department, there were two occasions where the referee was not even looking at the ruck but gave penalties presumably because the ball didn't come out as fast as it should have on Ireland's side and he assumed Scotland were doing it illegally. Nonetheless to continue doing what the ref has penalised is just plain stupid.

3. The second yellow card was infuriating, how he thought he could ever flip a player like that and get away with it I don't know. But Sexton's play acting was an absolute joke, given his history of concussions to pretend is absolutely pathetic. He is a brilliant player but not a likeable one in the same way as O'Driscoll or O'Connell, when Sexton has the ball I always want someone to absolutely smash him, legally of course the French targeting of him was not something you want to see particularly.

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Post by Guest Sun 20 Mar 2016, 12:55 pm

Watched some of the replay and I'm even more annoyed at the ref now in the first half (but also Scotland for not adapting.)

Can someone have a look at Barclay's yellow card for me and tell me I'm not crazy? In my view it's clearly a penalty to Scotland here and not Ireland. He says Barclay "came in at the side and deliberately slows it down". What I see is the man is tackled, Barclay comes in to snaffle the ball with no ruck formed (there's no other Irish player and Murray gets there after this movement) and so is within his rights to do it from wherever the hell he wants. And Irish player is basically holding on.

I'm just asking because I'm now doubting my own understanding of the rules ?!?!

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Post by RDW Sun 20 Mar 2016, 12:57 pm

Ineffable wrote:Watched some of the replay and I'm even more annoyed at the ref now in the first half (but also Scotland for not adapting.)

Can someone have a look at Barclay's yellow card for me and tell me I'm not crazy? In my view it's clearly a penalty to Scotland here and not Ireland. He says Barclay "came in at the side and deliberately slows it down". What I see is the man is tackled, Barclay comes in to snaffle the ball with no ruck formed (there's no other Irish player and Murray gets there after this movement) and so is within his rights to do it from wherever the hell he wants. And Irish player is basically holding on.

I'm just asking because I'm now doubting my own understanding of the rules ?!?!

I would agree with you - Barclay was the only Scotland player there so it wasn't a ruck IMO

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Post by BigGee Sun 20 Mar 2016, 1:00 pm

In amongst all the contentions about the ref and the play acting, one issue that has not had any discussion from the Scottish fans is how well McInally played when he came on.

He really does bring something different to Ross Ford and must now be pushing very hard for the starting spot. Frazer Brown also played very well for Glasgow on Friday, so the future at hooker looks reasonably bright for Scotland. I expect Ford to be rested for the summer tour and these two to travel, maybe with Malcolm as the back up.

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Post by SecretFly Sun 20 Mar 2016, 1:00 pm

Heaslip has been much of the sellotape holding this motley Irish crew together through much of this Six Nations.  I can't see how most observers can't see that.  It's almost like a second coming from the now aging number 8.  He deserved his MoTM award because I think it's overdue for the workload and effort he puts in through a campaign.  As others come and go both on and off the team and on and off the bench, old Heaslip plays virtually all games for the full 80.  For me, a hero of a very IFFY team campaign.

Overall though.  You have to be honest about what your eyes see and what you think.  Overall, I though that was an awful performance from Ireland yesterday.  Joe Schmidt often says the team are usually self driven and that he and his coaches only facilitate that.  Well, on yesterday's evidence, and on some of the other performances this season, I tend to fully believe the team do it for themselves and work it all out on the hoof.  It's sometimes dreadful stuff to look at - narrow naïve defence; narrow naïve attack - crossed purposes, crossed lines of communication, always coming onto an attack ball from a perfect stand-still, no genuine cutting edge plans....oh I could go on and on.

The miracle is that we're winning some games despite all our naivety.  And that makes me intrigued.  Had we a little of the actual organisation of an England or Wales, how good might we be?  It'll be a question we again ask ourselves right up until the next WC, where we'll again feel we've turned a corner and are ready to do the real biz against the best in the World..... but will it again be a delusion of grandeur?

Only two sides in this Six Nations would currently not be slaughtered by the best of the SH sides.  England and Wales.  England have a cohesion and fitness level that keeps them prodding and probing, and looking strategically and with cool heads for weak points, for a full 80.  Wales have a skillset and desire to go beyond the collision tactics of GatlandBall - and when the chips are down they have the ability to attack in smooth waves, at pace, dragging tired sides to the right and left in violent swings that inevitably create openings.  Scotland too, for all their downed heads post yesterday's game, have a much more incisive and tempo based attack strategy to call on when they play at their best.  Ireland really are 2nd class in terms of anything that could be classed as 'Attack'.

Maybe Joe is being seriously distracted from his role now as his private trials seem to increase year upon year.  We can only imagine the stresses of family life with the issues he faces.  Hopefully Farrell now coming in will add another solid persona to the coaching team and take some pressure off, because Ireland do seriously now need to look at how they attack and the mechanisms that aren't in place to allow it.  

So much work to do before South Africa.  I'm delighted we managed to crawl into 3rd.  It's a victory of sorts when you realise how bad the start was.  But the intriguing thing is that we were so close to winning both against Wales and France, and yet so very far off the pace of what's needed for International in today's world.  We could be oh-so-good if we fixed that blunt attack of ours - and addressed the causes seriously.

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Post by catchweight Sun 20 Mar 2016, 1:06 pm

Maybe Sexton feels after being the victim of some serious targetting that went unpunished, he has to go the mile to draw attention to it. Did think he received a knee to the head but also protested first before holding his head.

I thought there was a similar incident in the Ireland v Wales game where Williams I think it was seemed to jump into Keith Earls and piroutte onto the ground before grabbing his neck. Replays showed he didnt land near his neck at all. Earls got a yellow card. Witht the extensive use of the TMO its probably inneviteable players (and coaches) are going to start emplying gamesmanship.

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Post by SecretFly Sun 20 Mar 2016, 1:30 pm

Sorry to bring this up.... but adrenaline can disguise much after an incident.

So...it's not too difficult to imagine Sexton fighting through the pain in the instant after the event because of a rush of fury and adrenaline..... getting his ten cents worth of bile out at the ref and then realising how sore the hit was.

The world is full of events where people step out of car accidents like they're fully okay...only to die seconds later when the surge of adrenalin dies off to leave the reality of the injury to take effect.

Sexton had a right to be totally peed off... it seems he's become 'legitimate' target for an Above-And-Beyond-The-Call-Of-Duty campaign against him on the field of play.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sun 20 Mar 2016, 1:32 pm

SecretFly wrote:Heaslip has been much of the sellotape holding this motley Irish crew together through much of this Six Nations.  I can't see how most observers can't see that.  It's almost like a second coming from the now aging number 8.  He deserved his MoTM award because I think it's overdue for the workload and effort he puts in through a campaign.  As others come and go both on and off the team and on and off the bench, old Heaslip plays virtually all games for the full 80.  For me, a hero of a very IFFY team campaign.

Overall though.  You have to be honest about what your eyes see and what you think.  Overall, I though that was an awful performance from Ireland yesterday.  Joe Schmidt often says the team are usually self driven and that he and his coaches only facilitate that.  Well, on yesterday's evidence, and on some of the other performances this season, I tend to fully believe the team do it for themselves and work it all out on the hoof.  It's sometimes dreadful stuff to look at - narrow naïve defence; narrow naïve attack - crossed purposes, crossed lines of communication, always coming onto an attack ball from a perfect stand-still, no genuine cutting edge plans....oh I could go on and on.

The miracle is that we're winning some games despite all our naivety.  And that makes me intrigued.  Had we a little of the actual organisation of an England or Wales, how good might we be?  It'll be a question we again ask ourselves right up until the next WC, where we'll again feel we've turned a corner and are ready to do the real biz against the best in the World..... but will it again be a delusion of grandeur?

Only two sides in this Six Nations would currently not be slaughtered by the best of the SH sides.  England and Wales.  England have a cohesion and fitness level that keeps them prodding and probing, and looking strategically and with cool heads for weak points, for a full 80.  Wales have a skillset and desire to go beyond the collision tactics of GatlandBall - and when the chips are down they have the ability to attack in smooth waves, at pace, dragging tired sides to the right and left in violent swings that inevitably create openings.  Scotland too, for all their downed heads post yesterday's game, have a much more incisive and tempo based attack strategy to call on when they play at their best.  Ireland really are 2nd class in terms of anything that could be classed as 'Attack'.

Maybe Joe is being seriously distracted from his role now as his private trials seem to increase year upon year.  We can only imagine the stresses of family life with the issues he faces.  Hopefully Farrell now coming in will add another solid persona to the coaching team and take some pressure off, because Ireland do seriously now need to look at how they attack and the mechanisms that aren't in place to allow it.  

So much work to do before South Africa.  I'm delighted we managed to crawl into 3rd.  It's a victory of sorts when you realise how bad the start was.  But the intriguing thing is that we were so close to winning both against Wales and France, and yet so very far off the pace of what's needed for International in today's world.  We could be oh-so-good if we fixed that blunt attack of ours - and addressed the causes seriously.

Heaslip has been excellent and I think his back row colleagues have helped contribute to this. However, he is 32. Will he still be as effective at 35 (no, my maths isn't wrong) at the next World Cup? Of course that doesn't mean we throw him in the bin but we do need to have an eye on the future. POM, JvdF and Stander should all feature prominently over the next few years. Hopefully they will get a few opportunities together.

Heaslip is finally under threat for his position and I believe we have seen a better player this year because of it. Stander is at least on par with him and Conan will be seriously pushing him hard at Leinster. Close to 10 years younger with more pace and power which is what we desperately need in the pack. JOD will be considered there also in the next few years.

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Post by RDW Sun 20 Mar 2016, 1:42 pm

BigGee wrote:In amongst all the contentions about the ref and the play acting, one issue that has not had any discussion from the Scottish fans is how well McInally played when he came on.

He really does bring something different to Ross Ford and must now be pushing very hard for the starting spot. Frazer Brown also played very well for Glasgow on Friday, so the future at hooker looks reasonably bright for Scotland. I expect Ford to be rested for the summer tour and these two to travel, maybe with Malcolm as the back up.

I agree - he's benefited from regular inclusion and he put in his best display for Scotland.

Thought Sutherland threw himself about well too!

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Post by SecretFly Sun 20 Mar 2016, 1:44 pm

PLUS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

!!!!!

We must finally (again!!) talk about the Elephant in the Room that nobody seems to want to speak about.

Sexton's kicking for points.  

It's gone beyond a joke now.  The 10 does not have to be natural 'kicker'.  There is no law that says the 10 must kick everything!  Ireland should get over itself in this grovelling to the supposed 'duties' of the numbers.  We MUST find ourselves a Better points Kicker in this Irish side - find him, test him out behind the scenes and use him
Sexton is not good enough or consistent enough as points kicker and those points we're losing every game will be our downfall against most top ranked sides.  Those 3, 6, 9 or 12 points that he can sometimes leave there in a game are simple motivation for the opposition to keep their spirits up.... and a pretty good dampener for Irish players that have used up so much energy getting the right to kick for points.

It needs solving..... now.  I'm sick of the same things happening over and over again in Irish camp and nobody seemingly seeing it and/or wanting to change it.

Sexton is good at 10.  He doesn't need to be dropped to get a more 'natural' points scorer in.  But he doesn't need to be points scorer if by chance there is already maybe a better one already a regular on the team.

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Post by BigGee Sun 20 Mar 2016, 2:00 pm

Discussions around the aged 30 plus players in both the Irish and Scottish teams are interesting. Players like Ford, Best and Heaslip, Laidlaw as well, are not, in all probability going to make it through another full world cup cycle and if not, then when do you start to think about moving them on to bring the younger guys, who will need to be schooled in international rugby through.

In Scotland's case, Lamont now needs to be put out to pasture, as he will never go voluntarily. I really think that will be his last cap.

Laidlaw has had no real competition this year, with Pygros injured and S H-C completely losing his form. He brings a lot to the team, but is still a ponderously slow SH at times. We need Henry to step up, along with some of the young pretenders like Ali Price at Glasgow. This is a transition that will have to be managed skilfully.

McInally looked on Saturday that he was ready to step up now and I have my doubts whether Ford has another full cycle left in him. He also has limitations to his game. McInally is a ball playing, skilful player who brings his backrow skills and vision to the party. You don't really lose much physically with him either. Expect him to be the No. 1 choice sooner rather than later.

The promising thing for Scotland is that probably around 12-13 of that starting 15 should be in contention for WC places next time around and most of them really should be hardened international players by then.

We should continue to improve now over the next few years and for once, I think I can say that with a little bit of confidence!


Last edited by BigGee on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)

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Post by catchweight Sun 20 Mar 2016, 2:19 pm

I dont think Ireland or Scotland think in terms of World Cup cycles. The 6 Nations is their bread and butter and their coaches dont have the luxury to build for something 4 years away at the expense of short term performances and results.

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Post by Pot Hale Sun 20 Mar 2016, 2:21 pm

SecretFly wrote:Sorry to bring this up.... but adrenaline can disguise much after an incident.

So...it's not too difficult to imagine Sexton fighting through the pain in the instant after the event because of a rush of fury and adrenaline..... getting his ten cents worth of bile out at the ref and then realising how sore the hit was.

The world is full of events where people step out of car accidents like they're fully okay...only to die seconds later when the surge of adrenalin dies off to leave the reality of the injury to take effect.

Sexton had a right to be totally peed off... it seems he's become 'legitimate' target for an Above-And-Beyond-The-Call-Of-Duty campaign against him on the field of play.

Couldn't agree  more, Fly.

If I recall correctly, when you get hit, the blood flows away from the point of contact/impact, it's when it returns that the person feels the pain.  There are more blood vessels in the head than there are in other parts of your body.

Dunbar went into the ruck at speed aiming to get Sexton out of it and accidentally/recklessly his knee slams into the back of Sexton's head whilst he's facing downwards.  Dunbar picks him up and throws him backwards - onto Sexton's arm/shoulder (Edit: I think his head does make contact with the ground). Sexton sits upright and protests with arms in air (internally more blood flows back to point of impact) and causes pain - he reacts to pain by putting hands to back of head.

I see that I'm not the only one that thinks so. http://www.balls.ie/rugby/the-its-not-soccer-crew-have-come-out-in-force-to-admonish-johnny-sexton-for-feigning-injury/327965


Last edited by Pot Hale on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 2:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by SecretFly Sun 20 Mar 2016, 2:26 pm

catchweight wrote:I dont think Ireland or Scotland think in terms of World Cup cycles. The 6 Nations is their bread and butter and their coaches dont have the luxury to build for something 4 years away at the expense of short term performances and results.

Don't agree at all.  Ireland have in the last few cycles entered into the WC final run-in gossip columns as a true 'contender' - this time was no different.  It's when actually in the damn thing that the foundations crumble and we're left exposed as the limited side we tend to be....or should I say 'good side held back by certain repeating limitations'

But no - we do 'Build' towards a WC.  That very game yesterday was one of the first cogs - trying to ensure we stay as high as possible in the rankings in time for the Pool choices.  The IRFU are not a short term view outfit.  They have long schedules and undoubtedly they think of WCs four years out from the next one.  Schmidt got his job to improve our WC performances (that was his priority given to him by his IRFU overlords)  It didn't work out.  If he stays, he'll be given more long ranger targets.

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Post by catchweight Sun 20 Mar 2016, 2:35 pm

Nah. Ireland pick the best team have available for the next match unless its a experimantation tour. They will never use the 6 Nations as an experimentation tournament thinking 4 years down the line. They are a conservative thinking side, and why wouldnt they be? Sacrificing the 6 Nations for a World Cup that they have next to no chance of winning doesnt make sense.

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Post by SecretFly Sun 20 Mar 2016, 2:41 pm

Yeah... I'll leave you with that thought, catchweight - and won't agree with it. I see plenty new faces in Ireland showing up to 'try-out'.... we've seen them in this very contest.

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Post by BigGee Sun 20 Mar 2016, 2:42 pm

I think that the WC is now the tournament that all the home nations look at as their yard stick. The competition this time on home soil has now taken it to a new level. It was never like that the last two times it was over here. If they were not thinking in terms of WC cycles before, they certainly will be now.

The only thing that might change that for the weaker nations in the 6N (and I do still put Scotland in that category) would be if they introduced relegation into the mix, which is not something that should be rejected out of hand, Georgia v Romania attracted a crowd of 50,000 the other day. These are potentially very serious rugby countries.

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Post by catchweight Sun 20 Mar 2016, 2:45 pm

The only changes made were forced by injury. If Ireland were basing schedules around World Cups then why have none of their coaches been axed after a WC despite never getting past a quarter final?

O' Sullivan and Kidney were gone after a poor Six Nations, not a poor World Cup. Schmidt is still there, despite failure to get to a semi final. Picking more or less from the same squad unless literally forced to bring in changes through injury.

The 6 Nations is and always will be the priority for Ireland. Nothing wrong with that, it makes sense.

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Post by SecretFly Sun 20 Mar 2016, 3:09 pm

catchweight wrote:The only changes made were forced by injury. If Ireland were basing schedules around World Cups then why have none of their coaches been axed after a WC despite never getting past a quarter final?

O' Sullivan and Kidney were gone after a poor Six Nations, not a poor World Cup. Schmidt is still there, despite failure to get to a semi final. Picking more or less from the same squad unless literally forced to bring in changes through injury.

The 6 Nations is and always will be the priority for Ireland. Nothing wrong with that, it makes sense.

It makes sense if you think and hope that Ireland has no grander ambitions.  It might be neat for people to claim that and make themselves believe that is true.

O'Sullivan and Kidney went because of the word 'cumulative'.  Their performances as coaches became cumulatively bad.... bad performance after bad performances over the term of their contracts.  O'Sullivan and Kidney walked because the emotion amongst fans and administrators was 'Enough is enough'.

O'Sullivan's reputation began instantly to suffer after his disastrous World Cup - he might have hung in there for a while longer - but the knives were out for him because of the WC.  Kidney was dropped because the fans and admin people no longer believed he'd have the team prepared to fight in a WC.  That's why he went, because it was felt a new coach would need time to get something sorted for a WC, a new coach must be given the respect of being given time to get the machine working more smoothly again in advance of a WC.

The WC features prominently in IRFU thinking.... AND in the thinking of the pressure police (the fans).  IF we are falling well off the pace two years out from the next one - and IF Schmidt is still with us - he'll come under severe pressure from fans and the IRFU will be forced to think about change.  And the thinking will be directly and bluntly related to the approaching WC.

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Post by catchweight Sun 20 Mar 2016, 3:17 pm

What grander ambitions do Ireland have? A world cup every four years is not given priority over the 6 Nations championship in between. A 6 Nations championship or a grand slam means far more to Ireland than a world cup semi final. Do I think Ireland look at a World Cup in four years time and think - lets build towards winning that? No not a chance. The 6 Nations is their priority. This is reflected in the firings or coaches and the selections across the board.

England do look at a World Cup in 4 years time and target winning in it or at least being up there with a chance. If they dont, the coach is gone. Lancaster bad word cup - gone. Johnson bad world cup - gone.

Did O'Sullivan, Kidney or Schmidt suffer that fate? No, because they had delivered up to that point in the 6 Nations. Ireland would realistically look for a semi final in a world Cup as a good performance but they will never sacrifice the 6 Nations in any shape or form to build on that.

If an Ireland coach delivers in the 6 Nations, they wont be fired regardless of how badly they do in a world cup - of that I am very confident. Because its winning the 6 nations rather than the World Cup that is the target.

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Post by SecretFly Sun 20 Mar 2016, 3:42 pm

You seem to have this niggling irriation when trying to join the ambitions to do well in a WC with 'false' assumptions that we're ever going to win the thing.

It's as if me saying we think of it is an insult to those 'Great' teams that wait and plot every four years to win it.

How has England, with it's massive playing numbers and limitless budgets being doing recently in that project of planning and thinking and seriously plotting for the WC?  They're getting great results recently in thinking solely about the WC and giving the Six Nations to their 'experimental sides' (NOT Wink )  Indeed, England's most experimental sides over the last four years all happened in the WC itself!   So much for serious planning of a serious World Cup potential side.

Another thing you don't seem willing to link up is the connection between doing well in the 6N and how that is seen as a developing tool for the WC.  IE - do well in 6N and at least you're setting up a reasonable platform for having a crack at doing well in the World Cup.  
As you've alluded to - doing well does not require a win and a cup - doing well is reaching a semi-final perhaps.  Doing really well, doing amazingly well is winning it - having ambition to get to a semi-final, and then perhaps one step better, is a WC ambition and a legitimate one.

England and Jones will be delighted they got a Slam (with a non-experimental side) They'll be delighted they're finally on a winning platform in that competition as they'll justly call it a sounding board on their progression towards the next WC.  Don't pretend they weren't frustrated as f**k with their myriad of runner-up spots. And so it proved to be true that runner-up performances in the 6N aren't really good enough for a serious stab at a WC.

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Post by catchweight Sun 20 Mar 2016, 3:52 pm

I dont have any niggling ambitions. Simply put:

Ireland (and Wales/Scotland/Italy) - 6 Nations is greater prioty than World Cup
England (and France) - World Cup is greater priority than 6 Nations.

I think this has been glaringly obvious over the last twenty years in terms of targets set and the hiring and firing of coaches over the period.

If England and France have bad world cups, their coaches will pay the price. that has not been the case for Ireland.

England quite clearly target the final of the World Cup as a priority. Whether they are successful is a completely different matter. If they dont get there, the coach can expect to be out of a job as Johnson and Lancaster found. This just is not the case for Ireland where its 6 Nations first and foremost.

I dont think the IRFU target a 4 year world cup cycle for a tournamnet that realistically they dont think they will win. A semi is the challenge for them. This means a lot less than winning a 6 nations championship or targetting a grand slam.

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Post by theslosty Sun 20 Mar 2016, 3:56 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Sorry to bring this up.... but adrenaline can disguise much after an incident.

So...it's not too difficult to imagine Sexton fighting through the pain in the instant after the event because of a rush of fury and adrenaline..... getting his ten cents worth of bile out at the ref and then realising how sore the hit was.

The world is full of events where people step out of car accidents like they're fully okay...only to die seconds later when the surge of adrenalin dies off to leave the reality of the injury to take effect.

Sexton had a right to be totally peed off... it seems he's become 'legitimate' target for an Above-And-Beyond-The-Call-Of-Duty campaign against him on the field of play.

Couldn't agree  more, Fly.

If I recall correctly, when you get hit, the blood flows away from the point of contact/impact, it's when it returns that the person feels the pain.  There are more blood vessels in the head than there are in other parts of your body.

Dunbar went into the ruck at speed aiming to get Sexton out of it and accidentally/recklessly his knee slams into the back of Sexton's head whilst he's facing downwards.  Dunbar picks him up and throws him backwards - onto Sexton's arm/shoulder (Edit: I think his head does make contact with the ground). Sexton sits upright and protests with arms in air (internally more blood flows back to point of impact) and causes pain - he reacts to pain by putting hands to back of head.

I see that I'm not the only one that thinks so.  http://www.balls.ie/rugby/the-its-not-soccer-crew-have-come-out-in-force-to-admonish-johnny-sexton-for-feigning-injury/327965
Each time I view it I agree more and more with everything said here.

The other sad thing that this brings out is rugby's awfully snobbish attitude towards football, both are great games and both have flaws, some rugby fans need to realise this.
For example Jonny Sexton and other 10s need an entire minute to put a very straightforward kick between the posts - Lionel Messi can have his legs taken out from under him and within 20 seconds he's placed the free kick in the top corner with just a dartboard-sized space to aim for.
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Post by SecretFly Sun 20 Mar 2016, 4:02 pm

catchweight wrote:I dont have any niggling ambitions. Simply put:

Ireland (and Wales/Scotland/Italy) - 6 Nations is greater prioty than World Cup
England (and France) - World Cup is greater priority than 6 Nations.
......


Well it's a difference of opinion that we're not going to agree on any time soon, catch. You'll say many people would support your opinion...and of course I believe I'm not remotely alone in mine. We'll leave it there so.

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Post by Notch Mon 21 Mar 2016, 2:47 pm

It might be too soon, but... this picture really made me laugh.

6N 2016 : Super Saturday Game 2 Ireland vs Scotland Dublin 17h00 KO - Page 8 Laidla10
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Post by RDW Mon 21 Mar 2016, 2:49 pm

Notch wrote:It might be too soon, but... this picture really made me laugh.

6N 2016 : Super Saturday Game 2 Ireland vs Scotland Dublin 17h00 KO - Page 8 Laidla10

Laugh

Any idea what caused all the rammies?

The worst one was after Toner's try - was that really because of the slight tip tackle when Horne tried to tackle him? He was giving away around 3ft to Toner of course it is awkward to tackle him!

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Post by GunsGerms Mon 21 Mar 2016, 2:54 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Let's not get hung up on this. It was a great game and this shouldn't be  the talking point.

Dunbar was rightly yellow carded but Sexton had a wee bit of a play act.  Case closed.

How for the Irish lads feel they are placed for their summer tour?

Yes Sexton was being stupid. It was annoying to watch. However, he has been targeted by in every game of this tournament and IMO has not been protected by the referees sufficiently in this tournament. It seems that this year referees were quite lenient re cheap shots compared to previous years.

I think Sexton's acting performance is symptomatic of other players getting away with a lot on Sexton and he wanted to make sure it didn't happen again.

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Post by Notch Mon 21 Mar 2016, 2:57 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Notch wrote:It might be too soon, but... this picture really made me laugh.

6N 2016 : Super Saturday Game 2 Ireland vs Scotland Dublin 17h00 KO - Page 8 Laidla10

Laugh

Any idea what caused all the rammies?

The worst one was after Toner's try - was that really because of the slight tip tackle when Horne tried to tackle him? He was giving away around 3ft to Toner of course it is awkward to tackle him!

That picture is right after Toners try. All the lads running into celebrate with him and Laidlaw kicking off! No idea why...
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Post by SecretFly Mon 21 Mar 2016, 3:06 pm

Laidlaw makes me laugh. That face of his and all the expressions it's liable to show in any given half second. Always reminds me of Dustin Hoffman.... so I laugh. Those little dancing eyes..... "Right, right so you want a f**kin' Interview, RTE? ...okay... but careful, I'm not in a great mood. None of the smarmy lines or it'll be a walk-off..... careful does it. Don't rub me up the wrong way here.... ask your f**kin' question now"

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Post by Engine#4 Mon 21 Mar 2016, 6:56 pm

Notch wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
Notch wrote:It might be too soon, but... this picture really made me laugh.

6N 2016 : Super Saturday Game 2 Ireland vs Scotland Dublin 17h00 KO - Page 8 Laidla10

Laugh

Any idea what caused all the rammies?

The worst one was after Toner's try - was that really because of the slight tip tackle when Horne tried to tackle him? He was giving away around 3ft to Toner of course it is awkward to tackle him!

That picture is right after Toners try. All the lads running into celebrate with him and Laidlaw kicking off! No idea why...

Couldn't figure it out either? Headscratch It was hard to see and looked like Laidlaw just kicked off but I assumed at the time that one of the Irish players might have accidentally trodden on the Scot on the ground during the celebrations

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Post by Guest Mon 21 Mar 2016, 8:01 pm

Think Laidlaw was reacting to Horne getting pushed to the ground during the celebration.

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