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World Rugby wants Marler explanation

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Post by rainbow-warrior Fri 18 Mar 2016, 12:24 am

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35837685


Last edited by rainbow-warrior on Fri 18 Mar 2016, 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:25 am

TrailApe wrote:
Do you think he should have been given a fine or a ban?

Thanks Guns

He should be made to 'volunteer' to go and help Travellers, perhaps helping on a Site or perhaps giving them a few training sessions. Fines/Bans are negative. something positive needs to come from this episode - but for Gods sake, if he does do something like that, keep it low key, appropriate and no media circus.

He's been very stupid and he needs to put that right.

I don't think he should be made to volunteer, but I agree that this would be an intelligent and progressive thing for Marler to do. Even better if Marler and Lee agreed to do it together. That would send a great message.

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Post by bumble Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:26 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
TrailApe wrote:
Do you think he should have been given a fine or a ban?

Thanks Guns

He should be made to 'volunteer' to go and help Travellers, perhaps helping on a Site or perhaps giving them a few training sessions. Fines/Bans are negative. something positive needs to come from this episode - but for Gods sake, if he does do something like that, keep it low key, appropriate and no media circus.

He's been very stupid and he needs to put that right.

I don't think he should be made to volunteer, but I agree that this would be an intelligent and progressive thing for Marler to do. Even better if Marler and Lee agreed to do it together. That would send a great message.

Why should a player that has just been racially abused, get the same sanction as the player who racially abused him? That makes no sense whatsoever.

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Post by GunsGerms Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:27 am

He probably wouldn't see it as a sanction. Anyway, I don't think they should have to do that. A week ban would have been ideal IMO.

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Post by Cyril Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:28 am

GunsGerms wrote:
TrailApe wrote:
Do you think he should have been given a fine or a ban?

Thanks Guns

He should be made to 'volunteer' to go and help Travellers, perhaps helping on a Site or perhaps giving them a few training sessions. Fines/Bans are negative. something positive needs to come from this episode - but for Gods sake, if he does do something like that, keep it low key, appropriate and no media circus.

He's been very stupid and he needs to put that right.

I think he would prefer a fine or ban.
I'm not so sure. Marler has been stupid and ignorant, but he generally comes across as a good guy, with a decent sense of humour and quite self-deprecating. I reckon a bit of community service would be a bit of an eye-opener for him and mend a few bridges. I don't think he's been unwilling to say he was wrong (and not just to the media as mitigation, but with the original apology).

It needs to be shown that he's done wrong and that it's not acceptable but this option might be a bit more of a way of making amends than just a simple fine or ban which doesn't really benefit the aggrieved party (if that's what the traveller/gypsy community is).

It's a tricky one, though.

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Post by beshocked Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:28 am

bumble wouldn't count as "racial" abuse though would it.

As I said where draw the line? Call him a fat boy instead? Would we get people who are overweight weighing in on the topic?

What about gay boy? Then there's the whole homophobic angle....

Of course none of these are acceptable but a line has to be drawn in the sand.

The community took offence to one man calling another man a gypsy boy..... He could have said much worse.

If every potential slur was dealt with then punishments would go through the roof. Now maybe you might say let's do it. The line where is it?


Media circuses are what some rugby fans enjoy.... looking at you no 7 & 1/2 and Gunsgerms....

Why deal with something in a quick and relatively painless way when you can drag something out - keep on the circus as long as possible....

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Post by Presuming Ed Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:29 am

h

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Post by TrailApe Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:29 am

Am I sure that Samson Lee's mate of 15 years wasn't racially abusing him? Yeah I am.

So what - what about other Travellers that would have been offended (if the article had been pushed into their faces) I'm sure the Lady from the 'Nat Alliance Gyspy Traveller & Roma Women Organization' could have raised the same amount of indignation over the Welsh article if it was splattered all over the national media.

What you are implying here is that it's ok if it's a 'mate' that enters into racial comments but not ok if it's a stranger.

Sorry, but I don't think that's how it works.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:30 am

Thanks for that beshocked. Personally I see racist abuse on the field as something to stamp out and discuss.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:31 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
TrailApe wrote:
Do you think he should have been given a fine or a ban?

Thanks Guns

He should be made to 'volunteer' to go and help Travellers, perhaps helping on a Site or perhaps giving them a few training sessions. Fines/Bans are negative. something positive needs to come from this episode - but for Gods sake, if he does do something like that, keep it low key, appropriate and no media circus.

He's been very stupid and he needs to put that right.

I don't think he should be made to volunteer, but I agree that this would be an intelligent and progressive thing for Marler to do. Even better if Marler and Lee agreed to do it together. That would send a great message.

Played at tight head myself for over 13 years, am I going to have to go back and help every hooker and loosehead's mother and or sister I insulted?

The gypsy boy comment as I said earlier was a sloppy and poor angle of verbal attack especially with all the other things you could have attacked Lee about, volunteering to help out travelers is a bit extreme no?

I wonder how many disrespectful things players say to each other about everything under the sun that don't get picked up on the ref's mic?
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Post by bumble Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:32 am

beshocked wrote:bumble wouldn't count as "racial" abuse though would it.

As I said where draw the line? Call him a fat boy instead? Would we get people who are overweight weighing in on the topic?

What about gay boy? Then there's the whole homophobic angle....

Of course none of these are acceptable but a line has to be drawn in the sand.

The community took offence to one man calling another man a gypsy boy..... He could have said much worse.

If every potential slur was dealt with then punishments would go through the roof. Now maybe you might say let's do it. The line where is it?


Media circuses are what some rugby fans enjoy.... looking at you no 7 & 1/2 and Gunsgerms....

Why deal with something in a quick and relatively painless way when you can drag something out - keep on the circus as long as possible....

The line WAS drawn, when it became against the law. Why are people finding that so hard to accept?

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:33 am

bumble wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
TrailApe wrote:
Do you think he should have been given a fine or a ban?

Thanks Guns

He should be made to 'volunteer' to go and help Travellers, perhaps helping on a Site or perhaps giving them a few training sessions. Fines/Bans are negative. something positive needs to come from this episode - but for Gods sake, if he does do something like that, keep it low key, appropriate and no media circus.

He's been very stupid and he needs to put that right.

I don't think he should be made to volunteer, but I agree that this would be an intelligent and progressive thing for Marler to do. Even better if Marler and Lee agreed to do it together. That would send a great message.

Why should a player that has just been racially abused, get the same sanction as the player who racially abused him? That makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm not suggesting it as a sanction.

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Post by bumble Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:34 am

TrailApe wrote:
Am I sure that Samson Lee's mate of 15 years wasn't racially abusing him? Yeah I am.

So what - what about other Travellers that would have been offended (if the article had been pushed into their faces) I'm sure the Lady from the 'Nat Alliance Gyspy Traveller & Roma Women Organization' could have raised the same amount of indignation over the Welsh article if it was splattered all over the national media.

What you are implying here is that it's ok if it's a 'mate' that enters into racial comments but not ok if it's a stranger.

Sorry, but I don't think that's how it works.
No. As I said, Marler was trying to start a fight with him whilst racially abusing him. His team mate was telling a story.

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Post by bumble Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:35 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
bumble wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
TrailApe wrote:
Do you think he should have been given a fine or a ban?

Thanks Guns

He should be made to 'volunteer' to go and help Travellers, perhaps helping on a Site or perhaps giving them a few training sessions. Fines/Bans are negative. something positive needs to come from this episode - but for Gods sake, if he does do something like that, keep it low key, appropriate and no media circus.

He's been very stupid and he needs to put that right.

I don't think he should be made to volunteer, but I agree that this would be an intelligent and progressive thing for Marler to do. Even better if Marler and Lee agreed to do it together. That would send a great message.

Why should a player that has just been racially abused, get the same sanction as the player who racially abused him? That makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm not suggesting it as a sanction.

You're suggesting the abuser and the abusee receive the same outcome. Which is quite something.

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Post by Notch Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:35 am

GunsGerms wrote:
TrailApe wrote:
Do you think he should have been given a fine or a ban?

Thanks Guns

He should be made to 'volunteer' to go and help Travellers, perhaps helping on a Site or perhaps giving them a few training sessions. Fines/Bans are negative. something positive needs to come from this episode - but for Gods sake, if he does do something like that, keep it low key, appropriate and no media circus.

He's been very stupid and he needs to put that right.

I think he would prefer a fine or ban.

A fine or a ban wouldn't help him grow as a person. That would.

Also as a moderator,

We are having lots of people getting oversensitive and reporting lots of things that could be listened to respectfully even if you passionately disagree. We also have people on the other end of spectrum who say some incredibly nasty and judgmental things and then go into histrionics about some imaginary 'PC lefty luvvie police' because they don't like being called out on their behaviour. We don't have the time or resources to respond to every report right now, I have a busy day ahead of me at work, and if it continues we'll just have to lock and bin the thread as we don't have time to do anything else. It's up to you all collectively to make us not need to do that. Remember it's easy to take offence, it also easy to give offence and both can get in the way of a balanced, decent discussion.
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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:36 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
TrailApe wrote:
Do you think he should have been given a fine or a ban?

Thanks Guns

He should be made to 'volunteer' to go and help Travellers, perhaps helping on a Site or perhaps giving them a few training sessions. Fines/Bans are negative. something positive needs to come from this episode - but for Gods sake, if he does do something like that, keep it low key, appropriate and no media circus.

He's been very stupid and he needs to put that right.

I don't think he should be made to volunteer, but I agree that this would be an intelligent and progressive thing for Marler to do. Even better if Marler and Lee agreed to do it together. That would send a great message.

Played at tight head myself for over 13 years, am I going to have to go back and help every hooker and loosehead's mother and or sister I insulted?

To be clear I'm saying it would be a progressive and intelligent thing to do in the circumstances. I'm absolutely not suggesting that either individual should be required to do it, merely that I would praise them should they agree to do it.

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Post by HammerofThunor Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:41 am

beshocked wrote:Verbal abuse can be just as damaging if it's about your weight,sexual orientation,height etc than just race.

The IRB include sexuality, gender, etc in with race and nationality.

Some people react differently. The head of the traveller community or whatever - what's it got to do with him?

Her, you sexist Smile

First off, fair play to RDW_Scotland, clearly putting a shift in to try and keep the thread active so a reasonable discussed can be held.

My personal opinion is that it should only be an issue if an insult is thrown BECAUSE of race, gender, sexuality, etc. Not ones that include it. Otherwise it's just a descriptive term and not bias or bigotry. No different to calling someone a lanky Muppet, etc.

HOWEVER, how do you determine whether or not it happened that way or not? You can't. If Marler said to every prop he packed down opposite "[.....] boy", then it suggests its more descriptive. If he only does it to those of gypsy or traveller background then it suggests it's bigoted. But relying on that would be ludicrous. So instead we assume that if you use that term related to race you said it because of the race. Which is probably the most sensible way to fall because it is a deep and insidious problem.

My main problem with the way this has been treated in general is hypocrisy or lack of consistency. Under UK law (since we seem to be using that) there is no distinction that I have seen between abuse for race (genetic grouping) and abuse for nationality. However race is treated must more seriously. Mocking those of other nationalities is standard practice in UK media. It's common practice to call a man a girl or women as an insult (happens all the time in diving threads on here). The most commonly heard insults for me generally relate to suggesting someone is homosexual. Even if these comments aren't meant that way or the person insults they're not sexist or homophobic (after all, one of their friends is a woman) they have an nasty way of becoming the normal and marginalising more extreme behaviour.

But at the same time we should be moving to a place where it doesn't matter if some uses a racial, gender, etc descriptor in an insult. Because it doesn't matter anymore than height or hair colour. It's the dark nature of it and the fact people are treated differently because of these factors that needs to be addressed. I actually don't really know my point Erm

I probably would have banned Marler for 2 weeks for it as the absolute minimum. But if we do we need to clamp down on it all and take it seriously.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:41 am

bumble wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
bumble wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
TrailApe wrote:
Do you think he should have been given a fine or a ban?

Thanks Guns

He should be made to 'volunteer' to go and help Travellers, perhaps helping on a Site or perhaps giving them a few training sessions. Fines/Bans are negative. something positive needs to come from this episode - but for Gods sake, if he does do something like that, keep it low key, appropriate and no media circus.

He's been very stupid and he needs to put that right.

I don't think he should be made to volunteer, but I agree that this would be an intelligent and progressive thing for Marler to do. Even better if Marler and Lee agreed to do it together. That would send a great message.

Why should a player that has just been racially abused, get the same sanction as the player who racially abused him? That makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm not suggesting it as a sanction.

You're suggesting the abuser and the abusee receive the same outcome. Which is quite something.

No, you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting they "receive" anything.

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Post by GunsGerms Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:42 am

Notch wrote:
A fine or a ban wouldn't help him grow as a person. That would.

Fair enough Notch. I don't think it is necessarily world rugby's responsibility to make players grow as people. It is their responsibility to introduce deterrents for racial slurs though.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:44 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
TrailApe wrote:
Do you think he should have been given a fine or a ban?

Thanks Guns

He should be made to 'volunteer' to go and help Travellers, perhaps helping on a Site or perhaps giving them a few training sessions. Fines/Bans are negative. something positive needs to come from this episode - but for Gods sake, if he does do something like that, keep it low key, appropriate and no media circus.

He's been very stupid and he needs to put that right.

I don't think he should be made to volunteer, but I agree that this would be an intelligent and progressive thing for Marler to do. Even better if Marler and Lee agreed to do it together. That would send a great message.

Played at tight head myself for over 13 years, am I going to have to go back and help every hooker and loosehead's mother and or sister I insulted?

The gypsy boy comment as I said earlier was a sloppy and poor angle of verbal attack especially with all the other things you could have attacked Lee about, volunteering to help out travelers is a bit extreme no?

I wonder how many disrespectful things players say to each other about everything under the sun that don't get picked up on the ref's mic?

That is the crux of the issue though. If you say some exceptionally vile things to someone in a one to one situation, then generally there is no evidence to prove it. Like you said about insulting other peoples mothers/sisters, if that is a whisper in the oppositions ear as your packing down there is no evidence to use against you. Professional players are not the same as us. They are public figures, and they are also in a position where there are cameras and mics that will pick up on their indiscressions.
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Post by RDW Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:45 am

HammerofThunor wrote:
First off, fair play to RDW_Scotland, clearly putting a shift in to try and keep the thread active so a reasonable discussed can be held.

Stop, you'll make me Sad !

Hug

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:46 am

GunsGerms wrote:
Notch wrote:
A fine or a ban wouldn't help him grow as a person. That would.

Fair enough Notch. I don't think it is necessarily world rugby's responsibility to make players grow as people. It is their responsibility to introduce deterrents for racial slurs though.

I agree with that as regards the role of the 6 Nations Panel and the IRB, but not in the context of the criminal law which I believe does have a role beyond basic deterrence.

However, this is a rugby matter and as such the question is really limited to whether to ban/fine or not to ban/fine.

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Post by beshocked Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:48 am

no 7 & 1/2 I personally wouldn't call it racist. A storm in a teacup. Getting into a frenzy over this in my opinion is very silly.

We should be discussing the potential grandslam game vs France, not afoolish throaway comment.

Two words have bloated into a ridiculous discussion about supposed racism, completely overshadowing the rugby.

Marler was a fool, he apologised to Lee who accepted it and we should move on.

There are some who are offended on behalf of Lee but he's the victim, not you, not me, not the bloke from the traveller community.

To be honest I think Lee would probably prefer this media circus to stop too.

Let them focus on the rugby. Dragging this circus out doesn't help anyone.

Ruggerradge2611 well said.

If anything this is something the IRB should look at this after the tournament - they've got plenty of time to do so.

Perhaps tighten up the rules and show a bit of consistency.

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Post by bumble Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:48 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:

No, you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting they "receive" anything.

Then I have no idea what your point is.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:51 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
TrailApe wrote:
Do you think he should have been given a fine or a ban?

Thanks Guns

He should be made to 'volunteer' to go and help Travellers, perhaps helping on a Site or perhaps giving them a few training sessions. Fines/Bans are negative. something positive needs to come from this episode - but for Gods sake, if he does do something like that, keep it low key, appropriate and no media circus.

He's been very stupid and he needs to put that right.

I don't think he should be made to volunteer, but I agree that this would be an intelligent and progressive thing for Marler to do. Even better if Marler and Lee agreed to do it together. That would send a great message.

Played at tight head myself for over 13 years, am I going to have to go back and help every hooker and loosehead's mother and or sister I insulted?

The gypsy boy comment as I said earlier was a sloppy and poor angle of verbal attack especially with all the other things you could have attacked Lee about, volunteering to help out travelers is a bit extreme no?

I wonder how many disrespectful things players say to each other about everything under the sun that don't get picked up on the ref's mic?

That is the crux of the issue though.  If you say some exceptionally vile things to someone in a one to one situation, then generally there is no evidence to prove it.  Like you said about insulting other peoples mothers/sisters, if that is a whisper in the oppositions ear as your packing down there is no evidence to use against you.  Professional players are not the same as us.  They are public figures, and they are also in a position where there are cameras and mics that will pick up on their indiscressions.

True enough, but psychological warfare is one of the best weapons you can wield in a scrum. If it gives you the edge isn't it worth it? Noone is naive enough to think that this is an isolated incident, at least they shouldn't be.

It takes a lot to offend me, I've pretty much heard it all before and have had the misfortune of being subjected to Frankie Boyle a few times. I'm certainly not in the PC brigade.

My comment still stands, Marler's "banter/insulting" was pretty poor, but the only reason we are having this discussion is because it was picked up on the ref's mic. Make no mistake about it, worse will be said in the scrums with noone from world rugby or no mic there to hear it.


Last edited by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by TightHEAD Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:51 am

Is this a WRU sponsored topic?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:51 am

beshocked, it is racist. That isn't really for debate. If someone said similar to Itoje I don't think the is it isn't it would even be an issue (though I have seen people say in the past as they are black it's a simple descriptor and not racist so you never know!).

It's not a case of we either discuss this or France either.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:54 am

beshocked wrote:here are some who are offended on behalf of Lee but he's the victim, not you, not me, not the bloke from the traveller community.

But because the comments were aired on tv, they could have (and apparently did) offend others.
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Post by Knackeredknees Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:54 am

Bumble.
You are a wum and a troll!!
You are using this issue, with a brand new profile to show faux indignation on this issue.
To suggest as his friend used the term it ok as he would not have been racist shows you for what you are. A petty little person hiding behind a keyboard having a pop at the English ( which is fine as we are not legally classed as a race so it fair game)
I would never even think it would be OK to call my mate a n***** just because we've been friends for 22 years!!
To suggest it's ok is Love sacks

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Post by bumble Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:54 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
My comment still stands, Marler's "banter/insulting" was pretty poor, but the only reason we are having this discussion is because it was picked up on the ref's mic. Make no mistake about it, worse will be said in the scrums with noone from world rugby or no mic there to hear it.

Probably true unfortunately. So this is a massive chance for rugby to show some backbone then.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:55 am

GunsGerms wrote:Doctor Grey, the reference to the law was simply to demonstrate that under UK law members of the travelling community are considered a race and therefore what Marler said could be considered racist. Law was referenced because it applies to Marler and because there is no definition of race in rugby's rules.

I raised this point because in defending Marler some people seem to think that because travellers aren't a race Marler's comments cannot be racist and therefore there is nothing wrong with them. My point was a general point re racist comments and not meant as any barometer for sanction against him in a rugby context. The not a race defence is something that comes up time and time again.

However, yes you are absolutely correct in everything you said. Do you think he should have been given a fine or a ban?
Thanks for the explanation, mate - well said.  I presumed that is where you were coming from.  

For me I would give Marler a ban.  For two reasons:

The first is that I don't think anyone uses an opponent's background mid-match without looking for effect.  And if the comment simply came out unplanned, that points to a deeper problem in Marler.  

The second, is the political  point.  In today's world we need to be clear to the larger world where we stand and ensure the lesson is driven down to all layers.  We are still a sport trying to grow, and need to be perceived by others the way I believe we perceive ourselves.


Last edited by doctor_grey on Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by bumble Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:55 am

Knackeredknees wrote:Bumble.
You are a wum and a troll!!
You are using this issue, with a brand new profile to show faux indignation on this issue.
To suggest as his friend used the term it ok as he would not have been racist shows you for what you are. A petty little person hiding behind a keyboard having a pop at the English ( which is fine as we are not legally classed as a race so it fair game)
I would never even think it would be OK to call my mate a n***** just because we've been friends for 22 years!!
To suggest it's ok is Love sacks

You have a right to your opinion. This is just a topic I feel strongly about so am commenting on it. And the English ARE considered a race by law, as has been posted many times in this and other threads.

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Post by Knackeredknees Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:56 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
beshocked wrote:here are some who are offended on behalf of Lee but he's the victim, not you, not me, not the bloke from the traveller community.

But because the comments were aired on tv, they could have (and apparently did) offend others.

This bit confused me, they are happy to make money from the whole gypsie lifestyle etc on nation tv.
But then become protective over it?

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Post by bumble Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:56 am

doctor_grey wrote:

For me I would give Marler a ban.  For two reasons:

The first is that I don't think anyone uses an opponent's background mid-match without looking for effect.  And if the comment simply came out unplanned, that points to a deeper problem in Marler.  

The second, is the political  point.  In today's world we need to be clear to the larger world where we stand and ensure the lesson is driven down to all layers.  We are still a sport trying to grow, and need to be perceived by others the way I believe we perceive ourselves.

Well said.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:57 am

bumble wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:

No, you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting they "receive" anything.

Then I have no idea what your point is.

I'm suggesting that should Marler and Lee agree to do something together to help the Roma Community, it would be a positive thing. It would demonstrate with action rather than words that Marler is indeed sorry and wants to make amends to the group he has apparently offended. It would demonstrate with action rather than words that Lee has buried the hatchet with Marler, has forgiven him, and send a symbol that offenders and victims can work together in a positive manner. The publicity around such an event would also shine a light on the Roma Community, hopefully in a positive way, and encourage a greater understanding in the wider British public.

I'm saying it would be a positive thing, that's all. I wouldn't oblige either individual to do it. It was another poster who brought it up in the context of punishment, and suggested it for Marler only.

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Post by HammerofThunor Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:57 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:True enough, but psychological warfare is one of the best weapons you can wield in a scrum. If it gives you the edge isn't it worth it? Noone is naive enough to think that this is an isolated incident, at least they shouldn't be.

It takes a lot to offend me, I've pretty much heard it all before and have had the misfortune of being subjected to Frankie Boyle a few times. I'm certainly not in the PC brigade.

My comment still stands, Marler's "banter/insulting" was pretty poor, but the only reason we are having this discussion is because it was picked up on the ref's mic. Make no mistake about it, worse will be said in the scrums with noone from world rugby or no mic there to hear it.

This right here is one of the reasons I dislike some of the rugby culture. This ingrained idea that cheating is ok if you get away with it (not really related to the current point). In fact, it seems you're suggesting it's ok to racially, etc abuse players as long as you can get away with it. And we get angry because they try and take away rugby from schools as it teaches kids valuable lessons?

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Post by Knackeredknees Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:57 am

bumble wrote:
Knackeredknees wrote:Bumble.
You are a wum and a troll!!
You are using this issue, with a brand new profile to show faux indignation on this issue.
To suggest as his friend used the term it ok as he would not have been racist shows you for what you are. A petty little person hiding behind a keyboard having a pop at the English ( which is fine as we are not legally classed as a race so it fair game)
I would never even think it would be OK to call my mate a n***** just because we've been friends for 22 years!!
To suggest it's ok is Love sacks

You have a right to your opinion. This is just a topic I feel strongly about so am commenting on it. And the English ARE considered a race by law, as has been posted many times in this and other threads.

Seriously we are not.......
So is calling him gypsie offensive or not? As you can't have yes, but not if his mate called him it

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Post by bumble Fri 18 Mar 2016, 11:58 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
bumble wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:

No, you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting they "receive" anything.

Then I have no idea what your point is.

I'm suggesting that should Marler and Lee agree to do something together to help the Roma Community, it would be a positive thing. It would demonstrate with action rather than words that Marler is indeed sorry and wants to make amends to the group he has apparently offended. It would demonstrate with action rather than words that Lee has buried the hatchet with Marler, has forgiven him, and send a symbol that offenders and victims can work together in a positive manner. The publicity around such an event would also shine a light on the Roma Community, hopefully in a positive way, and encourage a greater understanding in the wider British public.

I'm saying it would be a positive thing, that's all. I wouldn't oblige either individual to do it. It was another poster who brought it up in the context of punishment, and suggested it for Marler only.

I'm sorry, I disagree. All it would demonstrate is that you can abuse someone in this manner and not have any punishment.

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Post by Knackeredknees Fri 18 Mar 2016, 12:01 pm

bumble wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
bumble wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:

No, you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting they "receive" anything.

Then I have no idea what your point is.

I'm suggesting that should Marler and Lee agree to do something together to help the Roma Community, it would be a positive thing. It would demonstrate with action rather than words that Marler is indeed sorry and wants to make amends to the group he has apparently offended. It would demonstrate with action rather than words that Lee has buried the hatchet with Marler, has forgiven him, and send a symbol that offenders and victims can work together in a positive manner. The publicity around such an event would also shine a light on the Roma Community, hopefully in a positive way, and encourage a greater understanding in the wider British public.

I'm saying it would be a positive thing, that's all. I wouldn't oblige either individual to do it. It was another poster who brought it up in the context of punishment, and suggested it for Marler only.

I'm sorry, I disagree. All it would demonstrate is that you can abuse someone in this manner and not have any punishment.

Maybe rob Evans could help as well

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Post by bumble Fri 18 Mar 2016, 12:01 pm

Knackeredknees wrote:

Seriously we are not.......
So is calling him gypsie offensive or not? As you can't have yes, but not if his mate called him it

Seriously, yes you are. Brush up on the laws of the country you live in, and you'll see why this topic is still raging.

As for the second bit, I've already explained. One was inflammatory, done in anger and trying to belittle someone. The other wasn't. Context is everything.

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Post by beshocked Fri 18 Mar 2016, 12:03 pm

no 7 & 1/2 gypsies are not a race in my opinion.

Hey Black boy! Would that be that bad? He is black. It's descriptive. It's like if I called hey you! English boy!

Depends on the individual surely whether they see it as an insult and the way it is said.

Someone might find the "boy" more offensive. Also some people get offended about almost anything. Can't please everyone.

I am not supporting Marler's comments - my primary point are that this should have been dealt with already and there are far worse things he could have done or said.

Doesn't make it right - but warrant - a week of media coverage? No definitely not.

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Post by Guest Fri 18 Mar 2016, 12:04 pm

Context is everything, as has been mentioned before. In my first post on this thread I said that I personally didn't feel that the term used by Marler was particularly offensive, and I've used worse or similar myself when describing other races, people from other countries, etc. But I'm not a role model and (hopefully) what I'm saying does not get posted on TV. So yes, in essence it's a little trivial and at the lower end but it is exacerbated and amplified by the stage on which it is said and the audience to which it reaches. So under that context perhaps it did require some small sanction.

The other context thing is the way in which it was said. If he'd tapped his team mate on the shoulder and said "That boy over there is from gypsy heritage" then that is fine. The term is descriptive and accurate and could be part of a general conversation. But it was the use of 'Come on Gypsy Boy', said in a confrontational and provocative way, and picking the ONE thing that makes Lee different to everyone else, singles him out, makes him different from the rest of the players on the pitch - that's the difference. Had he said "come on Welsh boy" then, as one of 15 Welsh players, it wouldn't have been so bad. And THAT is the way in which context, the use of the word, the timing, etc. all play a part. The word alone and in isolation is rarely if ever abuse on it's own. It's when it is targeted, aggressive, confrontational, divisive, etc. that we have problems. And that can be with ALL descriptive words for people.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Fri 18 Mar 2016, 12:05 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:True enough, but psychological warfare is one of the best weapons you can wield in a scrum. If it gives you the edge isn't it worth it? Noone is naive enough to think that this is an isolated incident, at least they shouldn't be.

It takes a lot to offend me, I've pretty much heard it all before and have had the misfortune of being subjected to Frankie Boyle a few times. I'm certainly not in the PC brigade.

My comment still stands, Marler's "banter/insulting" was pretty poor, but the only reason we are having this discussion is because it was picked up on the ref's mic. Make no mistake about it, worse will be said in the scrums with noone from world rugby or no mic there to hear it.

This right here is one of the reasons I dislike some of the rugby culture.  This ingrained idea that cheating is ok if you get away with it (not really related to the current point).  In fact, it seems you're suggesting it's ok to racially, etc abuse players as long as you can get away with it.  And we get angry because they try and take away rugby from schools as it teaches kids valuable lessons?

If I came across that way I apologize. It's never ok to racially abuse players. thumbsup

As I said I would have attacked Lee on other things if I was attempting to wind him up. Winding a player up for your own advantage is part of the game, and rugby culture.

A truly anal ref could probably find a penalty at just about every breakdown if we are being 100% honest, ranging from not releasing the ball, tackler not rolling away, no armed clear outs etc. If we add verbal insults the game is going to be sterilized beyond all recognition.
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Post by bumble Fri 18 Mar 2016, 12:05 pm

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 gypsies are not a race in my opinion.


Ok, lets try this. Do you understand that your opinion is at direct odds, with the law of this country?

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Post by TightHEAD Fri 18 Mar 2016, 12:05 pm

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 gypsies are not a race in my opinion.

Hey Black boy! Would that be that bad? He is black. It's descriptive. It's like if I called hey you! English boy!

Depends on the individual surely whether they see it as an insult and the way it is said.

Someone might find the "boy" more offensive. Also some people get offended about almost anything. Can't please everyone.

I am not supporting Marler's comments - my primary point are that this should have been dealt with already and there are far worse things he could have done or said.

Doesn't make it right - but warrant - a week of media coverage? No definitely not.

I get called Farmer boy as I have a west country accent, but I put it down to banter. thumbsup
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Post by Knackeredknees Fri 18 Mar 2016, 12:07 pm

bumble wrote:
Knackeredknees wrote:

Seriously we are not.......
So is calling him gypsie offensive or not? As you can't have yes, but not if his mate called him it

Seriously, yes you are. Brush up on the laws of the country you live in, and you'll see why this topic is still raging.

As for the second bit, I've already explained. One was inflammatory, done in anger and trying to belittle someone. The other wasn't. Context is everything.

Nope that doesn't wash at all, context does not come into it, I'm sure you already dismissed it earlier. You can't say something is racist unless a mate says it.

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Post by wrfc1980 Fri 18 Mar 2016, 12:08 pm

PC gone mad I tell you! I read a few weeks ago that a number of student unions had banned the wearing of sombrero's as it is 'appropriation'. Google 'appropriation' its scary where this will end up!

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Post by HammerofThunor Fri 18 Mar 2016, 12:08 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:True enough, but psychological warfare is one of the best weapons you can wield in a scrum. If it gives you the edge isn't it worth it? Noone is naive enough to think that this is an isolated incident, at least they shouldn't be.

It takes a lot to offend me, I've pretty much heard it all before and have had the misfortune of being subjected to Frankie Boyle a few times. I'm certainly not in the PC brigade.

My comment still stands, Marler's "banter/insulting" was pretty poor, but the only reason we are having this discussion is because it was picked up on the ref's mic. Make no mistake about it, worse will be said in the scrums with noone from world rugby or no mic there to hear it.

This right here is one of the reasons I dislike some of the rugby culture.  This ingrained idea that cheating is ok if you get away with it (not really related to the current point).  In fact, it seems you're suggesting it's ok to racially, etc abuse players as long as you can get away with it.  And we get angry because they try and take away rugby from schools as it teaches kids valuable lessons?

If I came across that way I apologize. It's never ok to racially abuse players.  thumbsup

As I said I would have attacked Lee on other things if I was attempting to wind him up. Winding a player up for your own advantage is part of the game, and rugby culture.

A truly anal ref could probably find a penalty at just about every breakdown if we are being 100% honest, ranging from not releasing the ball, tackler not rolling away, no armed clear outs etc. If we add verbal insults the game is going to be sterilized beyond all recognition.

Thanks for the clarification. Hug

But I don't agree with you raspberry I don't think there should be any insults. I see it the same as patting someone who knocked-on on the head or cheek. Or any of that Poopie. It should be a context played within the spirit of the laws.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 18 Mar 2016, 12:08 pm

bumble wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
bumble wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:

No, you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting they "receive" anything.

Then I have no idea what your point is.

I'm suggesting that should Marler and Lee agree to do something together to help the Roma Community, it would be a positive thing. It would demonstrate with action rather than words that Marler is indeed sorry and wants to make amends to the group he has apparently offended. It would demonstrate with action rather than words that Lee has buried the hatchet with Marler, has forgiven him, and send a symbol that offenders and victims can work together in a positive manner. The publicity around such an event would also shine a light on the Roma Community, hopefully in a positive way, and encourage a greater understanding in the wider British public.

I'm saying it would be a positive thing, that's all. I wouldn't oblige either individual to do it. It was another poster who brought it up in the context of punishment, and suggested it for Marler only.

I'm sorry, I disagree. All it would demonstrate is that you can abuse someone in this manner and not have any punishment.

It would clearly demonstrate more than that, and it would still be a positive thing (regardless of whether you think Marler has been appropriately punished or not).

The course of action I noted above isn't about punishment. My views as to whether the 6 Nations Panel took an appropriate position on Marler are separate, and noted on this thread above.

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Post by bumble Fri 18 Mar 2016, 12:09 pm

Knackeredknees wrote:
bumble wrote:
Knackeredknees wrote:

Seriously we are not.......
So is calling him gypsie offensive or not? As you can't have yes, but not if his mate called him it

Seriously, yes you are. Brush up on the laws of the country you live in, and you'll see why this topic is still raging.

As for the second bit, I've already explained. One was inflammatory, done in anger and trying to belittle someone. The other wasn't. Context is everything.

Nope that doesn't wash at all, context does not come into it, I'm sure you already dismissed it earlier. You can't say something is racist unless a mate says it.

Then I'm not sure it will be worth us conversing on the matter anymore.

I may now put some N.W.A. on my stereo.

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Post by wrfc1980 Fri 18 Mar 2016, 12:09 pm

Ive heard 'English ba*tard* shouted at the big screens in welsh pubs plenty of times during my Uni days in Wales. I took no offence to it.

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