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6 Nations - Team of the Tournament

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Post by George Carlin Sat 19 Mar 2016, 7:08 am

First topic message reminder :

Time to take my life and my testicles in my hands and have a go at this.

My Gaff, My Rules:
- 23 players please.
- Players picked in the positions they played in the most.
- You can't criticise someone else's team without also stating your own.
- Emphasis should be on players who have been strongest throughout the tournament as a whole.
- Picking a player on the back of one superlative performance only will need to be justified.
- Any player sitting out one or more games will obviously be at a disadvantage.

Trying hard to be objective, I would go with something like:

01 Jack McGrath (Ireland)
02 Guilhem Guirado (France)
03 Willem Nel (Scotland)
04 Alun Wyn Jones (Wales) (captain)
05 George Kruis (England)
06 CJ Stander (Ireland)
07 John Hardie (Scotland)
08 Billy Vunipola (England)

09 Gareth Davies (Wales)
10 Dan Biggar (Wales)
11 Jack Nowell (England)
12 Jamie Roberts (Wales)
13 Jonathan Joseph (England)
14 George North (Wales)
15 Stuart Hogg (Scotland)

16 Alasdair Dickinson (Scotland)
17 Dylan Hartley (England)
18 Samson Lee (Wales)
19 Maro Itoje (England)
20 Taulupe Faletau (Wales)
21 Greig Laidlaw (Scotland)
22 Jonathan Sexton (Ireland)
23 Antony Watson (England)

Players it was particularly difficult to leave out:
Jamie Heaslip (Ireland)
Mike Brown (England)
Damien Chouly (France)
Sean Cronin (Ireland)
Connor Murray (Ireland)
Jonny Gray (Scotland)
Carlo Canna (Italy)
Virimi Vakatawa (France)

Be polite, now.


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Post by exile jack Sun 20 Mar 2016, 9:00 am

George Carlin wrote:Some good choices here - although CJ Stander is really not an openside, lads.

It is always interesting to read comments that because England won the whole jamboree the team should predominantly comprise English players. Whilst I would say that England have (just shading Wales) the highest aggregate quality of squad player, their strength is as a collective rather than a series of outstanding individuals in every single position. 7 out of my matchday 23 are English and I think that I have lassoed the outstanding men.

As has been mentioned on another thread, the lack of undeniable, nailed on test starters when considering a consolidated team represents (depending on your point of view) either an exciting opportunity for players to put their hands up for the Lions tour or kevlar proof that we're going to get absolutely horsed by the All Blacks. I fear the latter but I live in hope.

It is also clear that quite a few people here have only watched their home nations play and none of the others.

Thinking about your selection reminded me how poor this year's 6 Nations has been considering the Lions tour next year.England by far the best side.The players who appear nailed on as possible Test starters next year,injuries and first season form aside,i'd say would be:
Hogg
Sexton
Itoje
Kruis
Roberts
North
Vunipola B
Faletau
Webb
Charteris.

I like Henshaw and Gray J(he reminds me of Broon from Troon).We also need O'Brien and O'Mahony back.Everything else up for grabs.For Wales the next 6 matches against SH opposition will give a few individuals a chance to recover their best form.

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Post by nathan Sun 20 Mar 2016, 9:09 am

Nel has missed the most tackles of any player in the tournament (13)

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Post by Exiledinborders Sun 20 Mar 2016, 9:36 am

01 Jack McGrath (Ireland)
02 Guilhem Guirado (France)
03 Dan Cole (England)
04 Maro Itoje (England)
05 George Kruis (England)
06 CJ Stander (Ireland)
07 John Hardie (Scotland)
08 Billy Vunipola (England)

09 Gareth Davies (Wales)
10 Jonathan Sexton (Ireland)
11 Jack Nowell (England)
12 Jamie Roberts (Wales)
13 Jonathan Joseph (England)
14 George North (Wales)
15 Stuart Hogg (Scotland)

My bench are the players I would want to come off the bench not the second best starters.
16 Mako Vunipola (England)
17 Jamie George (England)
18 Samson Lee (Wales)
19 Alun Wyn Jones (Wales)
20 Taulupe Faletau (Wales)
21 Danny Care (Scotland)
22 Dan Biggar (Wales)
23 Antony Watson (England)

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Post by RDW Sun 20 Mar 2016, 9:44 am

exile jack wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Some good choices here - although CJ Stander is really not an openside, lads.

It is always interesting to read comments that because England won the whole jamboree the team should predominantly comprise English players. Whilst I would say that England have (just shading Wales) the highest aggregate quality of squad player, their strength is as a collective rather than a series of outstanding individuals in every single position. 7 out of my matchday 23 are English and I think that I have lassoed the outstanding men.

As has been mentioned on another thread, the lack of undeniable, nailed on test starters when considering a consolidated team represents (depending on your point of view) either an exciting opportunity for players to put their hands up for the Lions tour or kevlar proof that we're going to get absolutely horsed by the All Blacks. I fear the latter but I live in hope.

It is also clear that quite a few people here have only watched their home nations play and none of the others.

Thinking about your selection reminded me how poor this year's 6 Nations has been considering the Lions tour next year.England by far the best side.The players who appear nailed on as possible Test starters next year,injuries and first season form aside,i'd say would be:
Hogg
Sexton
Itoje
Kruis
Roberts
North
Vunipola B
Faletau
Webb
Charteris.

I like Henshaw and Gray J(he reminds me of Broon from Troon).We also need O'Brien and O'Mahony back.Everything else up for grabs.For Wales the next 6 matches against SH opposition will give a few individuals a chance to recover their best form.

Headscratch

There are a lot of good lock options in the home nations - has Charteris really elevated himself above all of them after a humping of a terrible Italy team?

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Post by kingjohn7 Sun 20 Mar 2016, 9:49 am

Dickinson- rock v strong man
Guirado- almost seemed like the only Frenchman playing.
Cole- has been playing better every game, starting to get into a bit if form after a couple of years in the wilderness.
Kruis- has been outstanding.
Itoje- even though started less games is a def starter for me given his performance.
Robshaw- eng breakdown and defence has been superb, whilst maybe being the least athletic of all the 6s has been reading the game well and finding himself in the right place
Hardie- hasn't been a "7s" tournament really but think this man been the best if average bunch.
Billy v- falatau is maybe hard done by. Both these guys gave been epic but billy just smashed the door in this tournament.
Laidlaw- all other home nation candidates been toi hit and miss. Laidlaw has been a leader.
Farrell- yes I know against the rules, but feel I can't start sexton as general with Ireland's results and Biggar has been a bit off his pace but us unlucky not to make it. Ford has been poor this tournament and Farrell has been v strong, even if in a diff position. But I think he played 10 in every game(?) At some point so im going for it!
Roberts- only nailed on Welshman IMO. Has been a tank, as always but really feel he has stepped up his game this year. Harlequins has improved him. Titan in defence.
JJ- whilst hasn't been catching headlines like before, eng defence has been great and they been scoring tried. Dare I say he been doing" unseen work". JD been average, coming bk from injury.
North and Watson- both look v dangerous with power and pace. Watson an extra fullback, north getting bk to his best.
Hogg- easiest choice alongside 2nd riws. Has been fantastic, can do everything the other guys can do but better.

Hartley
Evans
Nel
R gray
Haskell
Care
Henshaw
Williams

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Post by Comfort Sun 20 Mar 2016, 9:53 am

1. Rob evans
2. Hartley
3. WP Nel
4. Mario itoje
5. Kruis
6. Robshaw
7. Hardie
8. Faletau
9. Youngs
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Campagnaro
14. Watson
15. Hogg

16. Mcgrath
17. Guirado
18. Dan cole
19. J gray
20. Parisse
21. Gareth Davies
22. Farrell
23. Joseph

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Post by VinceWLB Sun 20 Mar 2016, 10:07 am

Cole in the team of the tournament, you have to have a laugh? Nel and Lee thoroughly outplayed him, actually even Slimani outplayed him.

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Post by nathan Sun 20 Mar 2016, 10:10 am

VinceWLB wrote:Cole in the team of the tournament, you have to have a laugh? Nel and Lee thoroughly outplayed him, actually even Slimani outplayed him.
Nel certainly didn't outplay anyone in defence with hi missing the most tackles out of any player in the tournament


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Post by VinceWLB Sun 20 Mar 2016, 10:13 am

nathan wrote:
VinceWLB wrote:Cole in the team of the tournament, you have to have a laugh? Nel and Lee thoroughly outplayed him, actually even Slimani outplayed him.
Nel certainly didn't outplay anyone in defence

His tackling is woeful that's right, but apart from the 1st scrum against Wales i haven't seen him taking a backward step at the scrum.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sun 20 Mar 2016, 10:14 am

Nel seems to be living off the reputation he had in the world cup, during the 6N's he wasn't particularly great and was a liability in defence.

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Post by VinceWLB Sun 20 Mar 2016, 10:18 am

If that helps him staying at Edinburgh i'm alright :P

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Post by Comfort Sun 20 Mar 2016, 10:22 am

Tbh I didn't particularly think any THs did that well this 6ns, all had negatives in their game.

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Post by RDW Sun 20 Mar 2016, 10:32 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Nel seems to be living off the reputation he had in the world cup, during the 6N's he wasn't particularly great and was a liability in defence.

Liability is too harsh I think - I don't remember many missed tackle from him which suggests they weren't expensive misses. Plus let's not discount his ball carrying - it is impressive to be so solid in the scrums and still be such a destructive ball carrier.

Does Dan Cole giving away so many penalties put him in the liability category too?

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Post by George Carlin Sun 20 Mar 2016, 10:43 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Nel seems to be living off the reputation he had in the world cup, during the 6N's he wasn't particularly great and was a liability in defence.
Just so that I'm absolutely clear about this - "wasn't particularly great apart from the five scrum penalties he won against France and the four against Italy"?

Nel has also scored 14 tries for Edinburgh which kind of shows that he carries well. He also scored 12 tries for the Cheetahs in Super rugby before that which made him the club's top try scorer amongst the forwards for a season. He's like Sean Cronin - carrying is also a major strength.


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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sun 20 Mar 2016, 10:45 am

No doubting that Nel is a strong scrummager but there's more to the game than that, I cannot include a player who missed more tackles than anybody else, scrum penalties are a luck of the draw anyway to be honest.

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Post by Pot Hale Sun 20 Mar 2016, 10:46 am

George Carlin wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:Nel seems to be living off the reputation he had in the world cup, during the 6N's he wasn't particularly great and was a liability in defence.
Just so that I'm absolutely clear about this - "wasn't particularly great apart from the five scrum penalties he won against France and the four against Italy"?

Yes - obviously. Wink
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Post by nathan Sun 20 Mar 2016, 10:57 am

George Carlin wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:Nel seems to be living off the reputation he had in the world cup, during the 6N's he wasn't particularly great and was a liability in defence.
Just so that I'm absolutely clear about this - "wasn't particularly great apart from the five scrum penalties he won against France and the four against Italy"?

Nel has also scored 14 tries for Edinburgh which kind of shows that he carries well. He also scored 12 tries for the Cheetahs in Super rugby before that which made him the club's top try scorer amongst the forwards for a season. He's like Sean Cronin - carrying is also a major strength.
Was Nel the only person in those scrums for Scotland then, to win those penalties.

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Post by nathan Sun 20 Mar 2016, 10:58 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:Nel seems to be living off the reputation he had in the world cup, during the 6N's he wasn't particularly great and was a liability in defence.

Liability is too harsh I think - I don't remember many missed tackle from him which suggests they weren't expensive misses. Plus let's not discount his ball carrying - it is impressive to be so solid in the scrums and still be such a destructive ball carrier.

Does Dan Cole giving away so many penalties put him in the liability category too?
I don't think Dan Cole gave a single penalty away  Whistle

I'm not saying Nel is rubbish, just saying that it was an area of weakness this year

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Post by RDW Sun 20 Mar 2016, 11:09 am

I'm not a huge fan of relying on stats as they really don't tell the whole story.

Before you raised that stat I doubt anyone would have put Nel high up the list of most missed tackles, again suggesting that the 'misses' weren't of great consequence .

Also unless you go through each one individually to assess the context and consequence then I don't think it is fair to trot out the stat as a sole source of evidence of him being a poor tackler.

Another issue with stats is they aren't easily comparable - Nel will feature high up in the list of number of minutes played. You can't compare a prop who has played 300 minutes with a prop who has played 200.

Also, you can't really compare players from different nations - Scotland had to make a lot more tackles than Ireland did, thus increasing the chances of missed tackles. I'm sure the Ireland props didn't miss tackles because they didn't have to make many!

So to summarise, it is grossly simplistic to use a single stat to condemn a player as a liability imo.

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Post by VinceWLB Sun 20 Mar 2016, 11:21 am

RDW, i'm an Edinburgh and a Nel's fan and his tackling is below par, basically he will just put his shoulder in opposition and his wrapping of the opponent around is almost non existent, and this has been since i have been watching him for Edinburgh.

That said, his scrummaging and ball carrying more than make up for it. There aren't many players who excels as he does in both facet of the game as usually a good carrier is a weak scrummager and vice versa.

This is how i would rank THs in the 6 nations this year: Nel, Lee, Cole/Slimani, Ross/Cittadini

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Post by RDW Sun 20 Mar 2016, 11:25 am

VinceWLB wrote:RDW, i'm an Edinburgh and a Nel's fan and his tackling is below par, basically he will just put his shoulder in opposition and his wrapping of the opponent around is almost non existent, and this has been since i have been watching him for Edinburgh.

That said, his scrummaging and ball carrying more than make up for it. There aren't many players who excels as he does in both facet of the game as usually a good carrier is a weak scrummager and vice versa.

This is how i would rank THs in the 6 nations this year: Nel, Lee, Cole/Slimani, Ross/Cittadini  

Don't get me wrong I'm not doubting that his tackling needs to improve, but I don't see it as being a big enough issue to negate his impressive scrummaging and carrying stats.

I just don't think it is right to use a single stat in that way!

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Post by The Great Aukster Sun 20 Mar 2016, 11:27 am

McGrath, Guirado, Nel
Itoje, Kruis
Stander, Hardie, Parisse
GDavies, Ford
North, Roberts, Payne, Watson, Hogg

MakoV, Owens, Lee
RGray, BillyV
Care, Farrell, Priestland


Didn't they say Cole gave away the most penalties in the tournament?

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Post by Fanster Sun 20 Mar 2016, 12:31 pm

There are a ton of cases for different players, as England win the slam doesn't necesarily mean they have 15 world or even NH beaters, their sum has been greater than their parts.

If you were picking a world XV it wouldn't be 100% NZ players despite them being dominant, with a little less preciousness debate would be far better.

I think there are players noone could argue with, but also contestable ones...

1. Loosey could be one of 3 (your preference)
2. Guirado has been best hooker by a mile!
3. Again choice of 2/3
4. Lots of options, Grey, AWJ, Itoje, Maestri
5. As above, Grey, Kruis etc
6. Stander, Minto, Robshaw
7. Not options here, Warburton has been himself, HAskell has been himself, Hardie lightweight, very few quality 7 performances
8. Falatau and Vunipola standout, but HEaslip has been immense also
9. Davies, Machenaud, Murray
10. Biggar/SExton realistically
11. North (Anyone disagree?)
12. Roberts (although Henshaw and Mermoz have shown plenty, Farell's contribution to England has been good, would the lions do the same?)
13. Joseph, Taylor, Campagnaro all standout
14. Watson and Seymour have played well, arguments for Vakatowa too?
15. Hogg, Brown both standout, Williams a bit off these 2 IMO

Looking at every position it's fair to see English fans make 8-10 English picks, but it's also fair for others to make 2/3 English picks, because competition is so high in certain areas and low in others, it really does depend on your preference though!

I think though we are all agreed on Guirado at 2, Stander or Minto at 6, Biggar or Sexton at 10, Roberts at 12, Hogg at 15, and North on one wing, 6 positions covered realistically, everything outside of those 6 positions are up for debate with multiple choices?

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Post by exile jack Sun 20 Mar 2016, 12:40 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
exile jack wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Some good choices here - although CJ Stander is really not an openside, lads.

It is always interesting to read comments that because England won the whole jamboree the team should predominantly comprise English players. Whilst I would say that England have (just shading Wales) the highest aggregate quality of squad player, their strength is as a collective rather than a series of outstanding individuals in every single position. 7 out of my matchday 23 are English and I think that I have lassoed the outstanding men.

As has been mentioned on another thread, the lack of undeniable, nailed on test starters when considering a consolidated team represents (depending on your point of view) either an exciting opportunity for players to put their hands up for the Lions tour or kevlar proof that we're going to get absolutely horsed by the All Blacks. I fear the latter but I live in hope.

It is also clear that quite a few people here have only watched their home nations play and none of the others.

Thinking about your selection reminded me how poor this year's 6 Nations has been considering the Lions tour next year.England by far the best side.The players who appear nailed on as possible Test starters next year,injuries and first season form aside,i'd say would be:
Hogg
Sexton
Itoje
Kruis
Roberts
North
Vunipola B
Faletau
Webb
Charteris.

I like Henshaw and Gray J(he reminds me of Broon from Troon).We also need O'Brien and O'Mahony back.Everything else up for grabs.For Wales the next 6 matches against SH opposition will give a few individuals a chance to recover their best form.

Headscratch

There are a lot of good  lock options in the home nations - has Charteris really elevated himself above all of them after a humping of a terrible Italy team?

I put him forward more on the grounds of his form for Racing92 rather than Wales but can't disagree with the general point on the locks.Ditto the backrow.Quite concerned about the Lions front row but I look forward to the NH Summer tours sorting that one out and enabling us to use George's list as a benchmark. Can I also mention Ireland's Dillane and Wales' U20 Keelan Giles as Lions wildcards.Both look hugely promising.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 20 Mar 2016, 1:29 pm

theslosty wrote:1. McGrath - best of an ok bunch
2. Guirado - magnificent throughout
3. Nel
4. Itoje - as an Ireland fan this man has me worried
5. Kruis - was really not convinced on him beforehand but his form has shut me up
6. Stander
7. Hardie - also thought van der Flier went well with his two starts
8. Vunipola - Faletau and Heaslip also impressive

9. Davies
10. Sexton - don't know why it's said he's out of form?
11. North - see Sexton
12. Henshaw - feel he is underrated outside Ireland
13. Joseph - Davies a class act as always
14. Watson - such effortless pace, fantastic winger
15. Hogg - probably the back of the tournament

Great team, but Davies is certainly not a class act as always. I thought he had an average tournament and yesterday was probably our worst back on the field. I would suggest watching him for a few games rather than read what Welsh fans write about him on here.

I also didn't think Nel was that good, it has to be Cole at 3 in spite of his penalty count.

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Post by Fanster Sun 20 Mar 2016, 2:24 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
theslosty wrote:1. McGrath - best of an ok bunch
2. Guirado - magnificent throughout
3. Nel
4. Itoje - as an Ireland fan this man has me worried
5. Kruis - was really not convinced on him beforehand but his form has shut me up
6. Stander
7. Hardie - also thought van der Flier went well with his two starts
8. Vunipola - Faletau and Heaslip also impressive

9. Davies
10. Sexton - don't know why it's said he's out of form?
11. North - see Sexton
12. Henshaw - feel he is underrated outside Ireland
13. Joseph - Davies a class act as always
14. Watson - such effortless pace, fantastic winger
15. Hogg - probably the back of the tournament

Great team, but Davies is certainly not a class act as always. I thought he had an average tournament and yesterday was probably our worst back on the field. I would suggest watching him for a few games rather than read what Welsh fans write about him on here.

I also didn't think Nel was that good, it has to be Cole at 3 in spite of his penalty count.

Have to agree with mikey, Jon Davies and Liam Williams were both poor this tournament, maybe due to being rusty after long injuries, Davies was a bit slow and laboured, and Liam Williams literally spent the whole tournament running down dark allies.

Also agree with Cole, far superior to Nel who made too many mistakes regularly.

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Post by Exiledinborders Sun 20 Mar 2016, 2:38 pm

theslosty wrote:
10. Sexton - don't know why it's said he's out of form?
I agree. He gets my nomination for next year's Oscars.

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Post by theslosty Sun 20 Mar 2016, 4:02 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
theslosty wrote:
10. Sexton - don't know why it's said he's out of form?
I agree. He gets my nomination for next year's Oscars.
Spent enough time ranting about this on the match thread but watch the incident again - Sexton takes two big knocks in quick succession and then the wave of pain hits him 4 seconds later.

If he was only nudged in the back I could understand your viewpoint but I'd like to see these critics get so violently treated and then act with such great moral virtue.
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Post by theslosty Sun 20 Mar 2016, 4:03 pm

Fanster wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
theslosty wrote:1. McGrath - best of an ok bunch
2. Guirado - magnificent throughout
3. Nel
4. Itoje - as an Ireland fan this man has me worried
5. Kruis - was really not convinced on him beforehand but his form has shut me up
6. Stander
7. Hardie - also thought van der Flier went well with his two starts
8. Vunipola - Faletau and Heaslip also impressive

9. Davies
10. Sexton - don't know why it's said he's out of form?
11. North - see Sexton
12. Henshaw - feel he is underrated outside Ireland
13. Joseph - Davies a class act as always
14. Watson - such effortless pace, fantastic winger
15. Hogg - probably the back of the tournament

Great team, but Davies is certainly not a class act as always. I thought he had an average tournament and yesterday was probably our worst back on the field. I would suggest watching him for a few games rather than read what Welsh fans write about him on here.

I also didn't think Nel was that good, it has to be Cole at 3 in spite of his penalty count.

Have to agree with mikey, Jon Davies and Liam Williams were both poor this tournament, maybe due to being rusty after long injuries, Davies was a bit slow and laboured, and Liam Williams literally spent the whole tournament running down dark allies.

Also agree with Cole, far superior to Nel who made too many mistakes regularly.
Fair enough, I've only been able to watch the highlights of some Wales games which obviously reflects better on Davies than it would if I watched the uncut 80 minutes.
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Post by George Carlin Sun 20 Mar 2016, 4:23 pm

Fanster wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
theslosty wrote:1. McGrath - best of an ok bunch
2. Guirado - magnificent throughout
3. Nel
4. Itoje - as an Ireland fan this man has me worried
5. Kruis - was really not convinced on him beforehand but his form has shut me up
6. Stander
7. Hardie - also thought van der Flier went well with his two starts
8. Vunipola - Faletau and Heaslip also impressive

9. Davies
10. Sexton - don't know why it's said he's out of form?
11. North - see Sexton
12. Henshaw - feel he is underrated outside Ireland
13. Joseph - Davies a class act as always
14. Watson - such effortless pace, fantastic winger
15. Hogg - probably the back of the tournament

Great team, but Davies is certainly not a class act as always. I thought he had an average tournament and yesterday was probably our worst back on the field. I would suggest watching him for a few games rather than read what Welsh fans write about him on here.

I also didn't think Nel was that good, it has to be Cole at 3 in spite of his penalty count.

Have to agree with mikey, Jon Davies and Liam Williams were both poor this tournament, maybe due to being rusty after long injuries, Davies was a bit slow and laboured, and Liam Williams literally spent the whole tournament running down dark allies.

Also agree with Cole, far superior to Nel who made too many mistakes regularly.
I guess that we just saw different games. Seldom, if ever, did I see Cole clearly dominate his opposite number in a test match this season and I haven't for a while. I don't think he currently comes close to matching the high standards he set 2-3 years ago. And yep, I watch his club games a lot.

Cole was the standout candidate back then but time has moved on and there are other options now if people have eyes to see them.
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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 20 Mar 2016, 4:56 pm

That might be true of Cole, but I think in this year's 6N he is hitting those levels again. He's not miles ahead, but is the best TH in the tournament, just my opinion that. I'll add that I don't think Nel was as good as he was in the World Cup. For this team of the tournament I would start Cole, with either Nel or Lee on the bench.

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Post by The Great Aukster Sun 20 Mar 2016, 6:26 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
theslosty wrote:
10. Sexton - don't know why it's said he's out of form?
I agree. He gets my nomination for next year's Oscars.

Aside from his gamesmanship, Sexton was targeted in the France game and was so poor he cost Ireland the game. If that qualifies as a performance worthy (despite the knock) to be in the team of the tournament then there must have been some disastrous ones elsewhere.

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Post by Fanster Sun 20 Mar 2016, 7:06 pm

George, I agree, theres very little between Cole and Nel, however I just think Cole is that small step up on Nel at present, who makes consistant errors. That said Cole does give away penalties, but I'd prefer that as it's the way he plays.

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Post by MacKnocked-on Sun 20 Mar 2016, 7:48 pm

Fanster wrote:George, I agree, theres very little between Cole and Nel, however I just think Cole is that small step up on Nel at present, who makes consistant errors. That said Cole does give away penalties, but I'd prefer that as it's the way he plays.

What consistent errors would those be that Nel makes in your opinion? Can't say that I agree that Cole is ahead of him, I'm not sure Cole scrummages very straight.
The Telegraph today has Nel in the 6Ns team of the tournament with no close rival and makes him the front runner for the Lions.

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Post by nathan Sun 20 Mar 2016, 8:12 pm

MacKnocked-on wrote:
Fanster wrote:George, I agree, theres very little between Cole and Nel, however I just think Cole is that small step up on Nel at present, who makes consistant errors. That said Cole does give away penalties, but I'd prefer that as it's the way he plays.

What consistent errors would those be that Nel makes in your opinion? Can't say that I agree that Cole is ahead of him, I'm not sure Cole scrummages very straight.  
The Telegraph today has Nel in the 6Ns team of the tournament with no close rival and makes him the front runner for the Lions.
Making tackles?

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Post by Fanster Sun 20 Mar 2016, 8:26 pm

nathan wrote:
MacKnocked-on wrote:
Fanster wrote:George, I agree, theres very little between Cole and Nel, however I just think Cole is that small step up on Nel at present, who makes consistant errors. That said Cole does give away penalties, but I'd prefer that as it's the way he plays.

What consistent errors would those be that Nel makes in your opinion? Can't say that I agree that Cole is ahead of him, I'm not sure Cole scrummages very straight.  
The Telegraph today has Nel in the 6Ns team of the tournament with no close rival and makes him the front runner for the Lions.
Making tackles?

Firstly any tighthead scrummaging straight is niaive.

With regards to Nel's missed tackles, I don't think its fair to say, most missed tackles are systematic rather than technical, he's a good defender, but he has a tendancy to get caught out, and he has habits of getting off the floor slowly and missing phases before re entering play. I also think he's a bit slow in the lineout, Scotlands lineout has'nt been great this year.

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Post by gog1992 Sun 20 Mar 2016, 8:54 pm

Not sure why your arguing between Cole and Nel it should be Lee and Cole. Samson outplayed Nel in Rnd3. I think Dan Cole has a higher work rate than all three but he's a penalty machine. Lee and Nel are the best scrummagers but I would personally pick Cole if we choose a good Scrum coach.

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Post by theslosty Sun 20 Mar 2016, 9:27 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
theslosty wrote:
10. Sexton - don't know why it's said he's out of form?
I agree. He gets my nomination for next year's Oscars.

Aside from his gamesmanship, Sexton was targeted in the France game and was so poor he cost Ireland the game. If that qualifies as a performance worthy (despite the knock) to be in the team of the tournament then there must have been some disastrous ones elsewhere.
Eh? Could you point out any individual mistakes Sexton made against France?
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Post by beshocked Mon 21 Mar 2016, 10:50 am

Mcgrath
Guirado
Cole
Kruis
Itoje
Stander
Haskell
Vunipola

Laidlaw
Biggar
North
Roberts
Taylor
Watson
Hogg


Evans
Hartley
Nel
Gray
Faletau
Davies
Sexton
Vakatawa

Tough in a lot of positions because I don't think there were too many outstanding picks.

Likes of Hogg,North,Itoje,Kruis,Billy,Guirado ,Stander and Taylor were easy but not the rest.

Picked Haskell and Cole because even though I don't think they were that good were better than their rivals.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 21 Mar 2016, 11:16 am

1.McGrath 2.Guirado 3.Nel 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Stander 7.Haskell 8.Vunipola 9.Laidlaw 10.Biggar 11.North 12.Roberts 13.Taylor 14.Watson 15.Hogg

16.Dickinson 17.Hartley 18.Cole 19.AWJ 20.Faletau 21.Webb 22.Sexton 23.Vakatawa

7 - English
6 - Welsh
5 - Scots
3 - Irish
2 - French

I'm probably light some Irish players taking into account the overall table. Toner, Heaslip, Henshaw and Trimble possibly all have a case.

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Post by TJ Mon 21 Mar 2016, 11:33 am

I have to say I am surprised how few folk have Jonny Gray as a cert for me simply the standout lock.  Another simply immense set of performance by him and obvious by his absence against ireland.  Huge tackle count.  Hardly ever misss one, carries well making hard yards.  Runs the lineout.  Immense engine

Apologies for not putting up my team but I don't think I could add anything

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Post by RDW Mon 21 Mar 2016, 11:35 am

TJ wrote:I have to say I am surprised how few folk have Jonny Gray as a cert for me simply the standout lock.  Another simply immense set of performance by him and obvious by his absence against ireland.  Huge tackle count.  Hardly ever misss one, carries well making hard yards.  Runs the lineout.  Immense engine

Apologies for not putting up my team but I don't think I could add anything

He has generally been excellent in the games he played but may have counted against him missing out against Ireland.

I also thought he had a quieter than normal game against France - Richie eclipsed him for the first time in a while that game I reckon.

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Post by beshocked Mon 21 Mar 2016, 11:50 am

TJ did J.Gray dismantle any opposition lineouts though?

Kruis ran through one of the Gray bros for a try vs Scotland, can't remember which and won all his lineouts vs Scotland.

England showed how important the lineout is. Stopping opposition momentum with key lineout steals.

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Post by rodders Mon 21 Mar 2016, 11:52 am

Some really tight calls - England comfortably the best side but due a lot to depth rather than standout individuals.

Not much between the other 4 teams, minus Italy, who all had their ups and downs.

01 Jack McGrath (Ireland)
02 Guilhem Guirado (France)
03 Willem Nel (Scotland)
04 Maro Itoje (England)
05 George Kruis (England)
06 CJ Stander (Ireland)
07 Josh Van Der Flier (Ireland)
08 Billy Vunipola (England)
09 Gareth Davies (Wales)
10 Jonny Sexton (Ireland)
11 Virimi Vakatawa (France)
12 Owen Farrell (England)
13 Jonathan Joseph (England)
14 George North (Wales)
15 Stuart Hogg (Scotland)
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Post by RDW Mon 21 Mar 2016, 11:55 am

Jonathan Joseph has featured quite a lot despite having a fairly quiet tournament by his explosive standards - is that a sign that there weren't many standouts at 13?

Duncan Taylor certainly had the most standout individual moments but he didn't feature in the first game and a half.

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Post by rodders Mon 21 Mar 2016, 11:58 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Jonathan Joseph has featured quite a lot despite having a fairly quiet tournament by his explosive standards - is that a sign that there weren't many standouts at 13?

I thought Jon Davies and Jared Payne both had very good tournaments. England dominated Wales and Payne missed a game so its hard to look past Joseph.

Also Spedding, Brown, Zebo and Hogg all impressed this year at 15 but Hogg was magical at times and wins out over tough competition.
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Post by TJ Mon 21 Mar 2016, 12:04 pm

Jonny Gray -
V france - 9 carries for 2 yards, 2 passes. 11 tackles, none missed
V italy - 9 carries 19 yards 1 clean break 2 passes 22 tackles none missed
V wales - 6 carries for 1 m 1 pass 10 tackles none missed
V england 11 carries for 6 m 9 passes stole a lineout 15 tackles none missed

3 penalties in the entire tournament
58 tackles in 4 games missing a big fat zero.

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Post by TJ Mon 21 Mar 2016, 12:11 pm

beshocked wrote:TJ did J.Gray dismantle any opposition lineouts though?

Kruis ran through one of the Gray bros for a try vs Scotland, can't remember which and won all his lineouts vs Scotland.

England showed how important the lineout is. Stopping opposition momentum with key lineout steals.

Jonny got at least two lineout steals. Wasn't Jonny he ran thru - Jonny didn't miss a single tackle
He wasn't as effective carrying as he is at his best but because of his allround game and huge work rate he stands out for me. Look at the stats above - bet you none of the other contenders are anywhere near his tackle count

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Post by RDW Mon 21 Mar 2016, 12:17 pm

TJ wrote: bet you none of the other contenders are anywhere near his tackle count

To be fair that is mainly because Scotland have had to do a lot more tackles than other teams!

Stats like tackling really aren't comparable with players from other teams.

Jonny made a lot of tackles because as a team we had to make a lot.

The fact that he made so many compared to other Scottish players is a big achievement however!

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Post by TJ Mon 21 Mar 2016, 12:19 pm

Kruis V Jonny - Gray 15 tackles none missed. Kruis 16 Tackles 1 missed in the head to head match. Nothing much in the attacking stats with jonny getting his hands on the ball a lot more , Kruis got a lineout steal

Food for thought?

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