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Eddie's England squad for summer

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Post by rozakthegoon Tue 22 Mar 2016, 6:06 pm

First topic message reminder :

Hello you lovely lot.

I've very much enjoyed your posts over this six nations. Great stuff.

I don't post much as I'm a bit of a novice (well a lot of really) but I'm always intrigued by your far more experienced wisdom. So:

The summer will bring a chance for Eddie to put more of his stamp on the team; who do you think stays the same and who changes? And who, if any, so you think might be bolters? (I know it's an oxymoron asking about bolters this early, but I'm going to do it anyway)

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 31 Mar 2016, 11:48 am

Agree with that 100% Poorfour.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 31 Mar 2016, 12:29 pm

Cyril wrote:Re. Billy V, I think it's been great that he's shown he can do full 80s (has he played every minute of the last 10 6Ns games?) but it will be good to see who can challenge him at 8. We've really relied on him just recently and have been a bit lucky he's stayed the course. It'll be interesting how the back row dynamic might shift if he's not starting. It may well be a bit of a different structure if it's not a like-for-like replacement. That would be a good thing I think, but obviously it means other carriers have to step up.

RWC he got injured and.....

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Post by Cyril Thu 31 Mar 2016, 12:41 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Cyril wrote:Re. Billy V, I think it's been great that he's shown he can do full 80s (has he played every minute of the last 10 6Ns games?) but it will be good to see who can challenge him at 8. We've really relied on him just recently and have been a bit lucky he's stayed the course. It'll be interesting how the back row dynamic might shift if he's not starting. It may well be a bit of a different structure if it's not a like-for-like replacement. That would be a good thing I think, but obviously it means other carriers have to step up.

RWC he got injured and.....
Indeed. I meant to mention that. Compare and contrast 6 Nations (15 and 16) and RWC. The good thing is, I think Eddie won't have us relying on one player or system. It's be nice when Hughes is qualified though... Potentially some nice options at 6/8 to compete with the likes of SA.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 31 Mar 2016, 12:47 pm

Ewers, Hughes, Billy, Morgan - potentially 4 MASSIVE carriers to work with.

I still think on top form Ben Morgan is real force. We just need to see it consistently.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 31 Mar 2016, 12:48 pm

I'm not sure I'd stick Ewers in with that bunch GF, I think he's quite ineffectual given the size of the lad.

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Post by Cyril Thu 31 Mar 2016, 12:57 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I still think on top form Ben Morgan is real force. We just need to see it consistently.
Yep, his good moments are a bit too sporadic. I do watch that break he did against France to set up Foden in the 6Ns (2012?) quite often though! Smile

He did have some good moments off the back of the scrum in the first couple of tests agains NZ in 2014 (also defensively good) and his displays in that autumn were excellent (England player of the series?), but I do wonder whether injury and poor form will continue to dog him.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 31 Mar 2016, 1:00 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not sure I'd stick Ewers in with that bunch GF, I think he's quite ineffectual given the size of the lad.

Im not sure, I think he is a big carrier. Maybe not as explosive as the others, but they are exceptional. I think it'll be interesting to see him in Oz though.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 31 Mar 2016, 1:01 pm

Cyril wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I still think on top form Ben Morgan is real force. We just need to see it consistently.
Yep, his good moments are a bit too sporadic. I do watch that break he did against France to set up Foden in the 6Ns (2012?) quite often though! Smile

He did have some good moments off the back of the scrum in the first couple of tests agains NZ in 2014 (also defensively good) and his displays in that autumn were excellent (England player of the series?), but I do wonder whether injury and poor form will continue to dog him.

yeah that's the thing. Also he seems to have this continuous battle with his weight and just generally being fit.

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Post by Cyril Thu 31 Mar 2016, 1:11 pm

Not just Morgan (there are plenty of others) but it's really annoying when you've got a player with such good attributes who just get broken easily, have a poor metabolism/eat pies, have a poor work ethic or are just plain unlucky. I'm not saying the poor work ethic thing necessarily applies to Morgan, but Billy (and Mako) admitted to liking his food a bit too much and really worked on fitness and the right kind of weight.

That's sport though. There are some players who just sail through their careers and are really durable (McCaw didn't seem to get injured much). Of course there are obvious links between not carrying too much weight and having the right attitude and not getting injured.

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Post by TJ Thu 31 Mar 2016, 1:24 pm

Billy V is head and shoulders above the other candidates as a ball carrier IMO

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 31 Mar 2016, 1:34 pm

TJ wrote:Billy V is head and shoulders above the other candidates as a ball carrier IMO

Without question....until June 27th

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Post by lostinwales Thu 31 Mar 2016, 1:34 pm

Work rate must count against Morgan as well. He isn't just a one trick pony but tends to be quiet for big parts of a game only to explode when the chance arises. And he really does/did explode.

Billy just keeps running all day.

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Post by nlpnlp Thu 31 Mar 2016, 1:39 pm

"Billy V is head and shoulders above the other candidates as a ball carrier IMO" possibly, but there is more to the game than just carrying. Hughes for instance offers a real lineout option, which Billy and Morgan struggle to do. I am not knocking Billy, he has been immense in the World Cup and 6 Nations, but he needs to keep developing his all round game.

I think in Billy and Hughes, we do potentially have 2 world class players, plus Jack Clifford has great potential there. A nice problem to have.

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Post by Cyril Thu 31 Mar 2016, 2:47 pm

nlpnlp wrote:I am not knocking Billy, he has been immense in the World Cup and 6 Nations, but he needs to keep developing his all round game.
I agree that he needs to keeping working and developing (still very young). He's not going to be a Reid (who is, though Faletau is a very good all-rounder) but he does have some good skills. He's been asked to a do specific job recently (carry) but he does have a decent offload and often was high in the tackle stats before this 6Ns. Where we needs to improve is control at the base of the scrum. He often gets away with this through sheer power but it's nervy for the fans. I do blame Care or Youngs with this too as we're sometimes a bit naiveand faff around in this area. From Billy, this should improve over time. Hughes is excellent at this albeit at club level.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 31 Mar 2016, 3:29 pm

Jonny May is out for the season so won't be back for the summer tour unfortunately.

I agree with those on the previous page that I definitely think Jones will recall him once fit though, hopefully for the 2016 AIs.

He's just the sort of player that Jones will like given his express pace, power and good basic skills. He just needs to back himself at international level and get more involved. Given how the new staff have encouraged Nowell to play I think that should suit May though.

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Post by kingelderfield Thu 31 Mar 2016, 10:15 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
kingelderfield wrote:Players to be rested;

Marler, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Billy Vunipola, Haskell, Ben Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Angry.

Perhaps also Hartley on concussion grounds, we'll have to see how he recovers, plus there will other injuries to take into account; Tom Youngs, maybe May, maybe Morgan and others.

Now undoubtedly not selecting this many players, especially in the forwards, will leave us lacking in experience. However we do have depth to chose from and the opportunity will be fantastic for the selected players as well as for EJ to see various newbies up close. Added to this obviously the rested players will return fresh and extra keen to reprove their selections. Win, win, win!


Can you individually list who you would replace them with? And you've listed the problem, the experience you would be losing for a 3 game tour of the World Cup finalists is quite substantial just from those few players.

PS whos angry?

Of course Angry refers to the Mike Brown, our prince of fullbacks.....back in the day, oh yer way back when, fb was my position and i have to say I love the way he plays the game. I've always thought he's gives the impression of being quite a limited player but wow don't be fooled. Its as if he's playing to a different beat able to fix players and at the same time go passed them. Just wish he had the vision thing to be able to release the scoring pass.....

With regards listing alternatives, yes good question and was something I thought about....so I'll give it a go;  

Marler as stated. I'd take Mako Vunipola plus the two Wasps LH's McIntyre & Mullan

Cole; Brookes, Hill & Sinckler

Hartley; This is where we struggle as I'm unsure if George will be fit (?) and the more I read and think about it, it looks like Hartley should be rested and of course Youngs is out. This leaves the door ajar for the likes of LCD, Sale's Taylor and even Ward or the lad from saints whose name escapes me???

Launchbury & Laws; Of course all being well we'll take the incumbent newbies Itoje and Kruis, plus I'd like the 2 from Leicester to be given some daylight; Kitchener and Slater (don't think big Dom's there yet) assuming they're both fit.

Robshaw & Haskell;  Clifford & Kvesic (I don't rate Ewers) and Slater or Itoje can could play 6

Billy Vunipola; I'm really hoping Morgan will regain form and fitness (body and soul) otherwise we'll have to wangle Hughes some how or try Tuilagi from the back of the scrum.....i'm joking ok.  Seriously I would have suggested Beaumont but he's out for the season I understand which is a real shame for him as he's actually something different.

Ben Youngs; again the 2 Wasps sh's, Robson and assuming Simpson is fit as he'll be awesome on a flat track

Ford & Farrell; (real tough call on Farrell but I'm assuming Wasps will beat Sorries twice in the Champions and Premier finals so he'll be knackered by then), of course CIPRIANI and a big call here for the experience I'd take Wasps Lozowski who ironically has signed for Sarasens. Obviously I think he has the juice. And again of course Slade can play 10 but lets not forget that Burns has been showing form at Leicester.

And finally back where we began with Angry; Goode will go though he will never be my first choice and that's just out of spite! I would of course take Wade and to everyone's chagrin move Watson back to fb, or perhaps Slade could go there as could Lozowski or CIPRIANI

We do have depth and much of it is very exciting. EJ will certainly make them better players as will the fantastic experience.

Finally, I really do hope however that George regains his fitness as he deserves this chance.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 01 Apr 2016, 8:24 am

Just not sure Jones will make widespread changes to the team as it could end up being more barbarians and not really showing much. Clifford will surely get starts, a new 8, full back and maybe that Tuilagi and Slade combo.

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Post by rozakthegoon Fri 01 Apr 2016, 12:50 pm

Some names that have been mentioned and some that haven't

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/03/31/the-10-players-who-could-gatecrash-englands-australia-tour/will-addison/

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 02 Apr 2016, 7:24 pm

Does any one seriously think that Cipriani will be on the summer tour?

I mean if they are taking Farrell, Ford, and possibly Slade. will their be any room for him?

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Post by kingelderfield Sun 03 Apr 2016, 7:56 am

majesticimperialman wrote:Does any one seriously think that Cipriani will be on the summer tour?

I mean if they are taking Farrell, Ford, and possibly Slade. will their be any room for him?

If Cipriani outplays Ford in each of their games then questions will need to be answered.

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 03 Apr 2016, 9:24 am

Kvesic performance yesterday was perhaps a microcosm of his season and emphasised why he has not been looked at by Jones.

He topped the tackle count, was constantly a pest at the breakdown. However he conceded more penalties there (3) than turnovers (1). By comparison young Evans and O'connor - playing about 100 minutes combined secured a couple of turnovers each with just one breakdown penalty.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 03 Apr 2016, 9:39 am

Kvesic is a better player than O'Connor and Evans, I doubt many would argue with that.

I do agree he does lack something that is required to make that step up. I don't think he's particularly physical and his actual technique at the breakdown isn't the greatest.

You can see why Underhill is being touted as he seems to have both these attributes at the tender age of 19.

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Post by yappysnap Sun 03 Apr 2016, 9:56 am

How about that Harrison guy from Saints? He seems to have very good technique at the breakdown, is very physical and scores a few tries. Didn't he learn a lot of his rugby in NZ too?

Could be a very good option over Underhill.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 03 Apr 2016, 9:58 am

Agree Yappy, I think he has more potential than Kvesic. He's been putting some great performances in for Saints, regularly outplaying Woods. I wonder where he is on the radar?

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 03 Apr 2016, 10:19 am

I was just think in about back up to Billy V at 8. I know it is a long shot but what about Thomas the Tank Engine Waldrom? or is he like a lot of the others that once played for England, no chance now?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 03 Apr 2016, 10:36 am

majesticimperialman wrote:I was just think in about back up to Billy V at 8. I know it is a long shot but what about Thomas the Tank Engine Waldrom? or is he like a lot of  the others that once played for England, no chance now?

Beaumont, Morgan and then potentially Hughes I imagine.

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Post by lostinwales Sun 03 Apr 2016, 10:37 am

majesticimperialman wrote:I was just think in about back up to Billy V at 8. I know it is a long shot but what about Thomas the Tank Engine Waldrom? or is he like a lot of  the others that once played for England, no chance now?

Waldrom has the best try scoring rate of the lot - by some margin. But I believe that there is a feeling that he doesn't offer anything else. Billy can if needed.

I think Waldom's time is done as an international

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 03 Apr 2016, 10:51 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Kvesic is a better player than O'Connor and Evans, I doubt many would argue with that.

More would argue the case for BOC, especially Auckland fans, but really your comment proves my point. For as long as tge penalty count by Kvesic exceeds his turnovers he will struggle to impress Jones, especially when in that area he is outshone by players deemed average.

Not yet seen Underhill play so unable to comment.

As to Teimana Harrison, I feel I have seen him outmuscled too often for my liking.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 03 Apr 2016, 11:53 am

I agree on your point that Kvesic probably isn't good enough. I doubt many Auckland fans have seen or even heard of Kvesic tbh.

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 03 Apr 2016, 12:17 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I agree on your point that Kvesic probably isn't good enough. I doubt many Auckland fans have seen or even heard of Kvesic tbh.

How many Kiwi fans would ever rate an English player higher than their own.


Mind we could say the same about any fans, we are all biased towards the guys we see day in day out be we Tigers, Sarries or Falcons.

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Post by kingelderfield Sun 03 Apr 2016, 1:31 pm

I know I'm banging on about it but unless the selected players weren't a part of the WC squad or have now recovered from a period of prolonged injury, or perhaps are new to international rugby, then by and large they will be exhausted and prone to injury.

Furthermore given the fact that the jeff final is the 28th and the Wales game the next day and lets assume EJ selects a large 40/45 player squad including all available senior players, then realistically match day selections will have to be a compromise. In which case why not rest the senior guys and use the games to try out new options?

EJ is a very good coach but how best to progress the talent pool without significantly degrading its longer term playing ability is a real dilemma.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 03 Apr 2016, 1:52 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I agree on your point that Kvesic probably isn't good enough. I doubt many Auckland fans have seen or even heard of Kvesic tbh.

How many Kiwi fans would ever rate an English player higher than their own.


Mind we could say the same about any fans, we are all biased towards the guys we see day in day out be we Tigers, Sarries or Falcons.

I was with you till you said Falcons....

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Post by yappysnap Sun 03 Apr 2016, 5:43 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Kvesic is a better player than O'Connor and Evans, I doubt many would argue with that.

More would argue the case for BOC, especially Auckland fans, but really your comment proves my point. For as long as tge penalty count by Kvesic exceeds his turnovers he will struggle to impress Jones, especially when in that area he is outshone by players deemed average.

Not yet seen Underhill play so unable to comment.

As to Teimana Harrison, I feel I have seen him outmuscled too often for my liking.

Funny because I thought physicality was one of his prime assets. Interesting how views can be so different.

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Post by Gooseberry Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:05 am

lostinwales wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:I was just think in about back up to Billy V at 8. I know it is a long shot but what about Thomas the Tank Engine Waldrom? or is he like a lot of  the others that once played for England, no chance now?

Waldrom has the best try scoring rate of the lot - by some margin. But I believe that there is a feeling that he doesn't offer anything else. Billy can if needed.

I think Waldom's time is done as an international

Id probably agree. If it were the six nations por another comeptitive tournament I could see him coming in as s ticking platers were Billy/Morgan injured .. but its a waste of a spot to pick someone for the short term. He never nailed down a spot when he was in prime, and is now 32. It would be very short termist to select him unless theres a real crisis in back row avaialibility (which could happen with the pointless cash cow Wales game)

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:31 am

Waldrom must be done by now, but I thought the same about Nick Easter.

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Post by Gooseberry Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:57 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Waldrom must be done by now, but I thought the same about Nick Easter.

That was a bit different, Easter was dropped for political points scoring and to appease the media.
He was replaced with Phil f'ing Dowson whos biggest contribution to English rugby was getting kicked in the head.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Apr 2016, 10:58 am

Thought he was classed as too old.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 04 Apr 2016, 2:46 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I agree on your point that Kvesic probably isn't good enough. I doubt many Auckland fans have seen or even heard of Kvesic tbh.

How many Kiwi fans would ever rate an English player higher than their own.


Mind we could say the same about any fans, we are all biased towards the guys we see day in day out be we Tigers, Sarries or Falcons.

Nonsence, we all agree the Falcons have the best players...that's why they all keep getting poached Wink

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 04 Apr 2016, 2:48 pm

kingelderfield wrote:

Marler as stated. I'd take Mako Vunipola plus the two Wasps LH's McIntyre & Mullan


Im pretty sure he's a TH.

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Post by Rugby Fan Mon 04 Apr 2016, 2:58 pm

Anyone sense a sea change in the way Alex Goode is viewed? He's been playing out of his skin lately for Saracens. If he was ever to do that for England...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Apr 2016, 3:03 pm

Always been a quality player but never really suited the way we've played. For a while it's seemed like Watson has been marked as the next full back and having Goode and Nowell in the back 3 is worse than Brown and Nowell for speed. Is he good enough in the air, the Ireland match from a few years ago he was great, last year poor.

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Post by beshocked Mon 04 Apr 2016, 3:46 pm

Rugby fan Alex Goode has been very consistent for Saracens in the last few years now. His ability at 15 at club level surely isn't in doubt. His lack of pace has been his downfall at international level.

I just hope that Alex Goode can bring his club form to international level.


no 7 & 1/2 it's strange because Goode has generally been good in the air for Saracens.

Goode could well move to 10 still in my opinion, he's a very good goal kicker - better than Cipriani and Ford IMO, certainly at club level anyhow.

He has a much superior brain and vision compared to OF.

Sadly the last time we saw Nowell and Goode in the back three together was not a good time for England....

Road Runner would be a better fit for Goode because he has the pace, Goode lacks. Goode would of course bring the vision that Road Runner and Brown lack.

Some want Watson at 15 but surely he should stay at 14, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Apr 2016, 3:52 pm

It is strange but he's never looked as convincing for England. Maybe he'd just need a run of 3 or 4 games and get some confidence. He does look like a 10 who's been put in that utility category never to quite achieve what he should have.

Road runner?

I think Watson at 15, with May and Nowell looks well balanced, if Daly or Slade are involved in the midfield as well.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 04 Apr 2016, 4:00 pm

Watson looks like the next FB elect.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 04 Apr 2016, 4:00 pm

The new Serge Blanco Very Happy

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Post by beshocked Mon 04 Apr 2016, 4:15 pm

Goode still has a lot of convincing to do at international level. Just like Road Runner.

Well balanced? Don't think it is but then again as you know I don't rate Road Runner very highly at all.

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Post by Hoonercat Mon 04 Apr 2016, 4:58 pm

beshocked wrote:Goode could well move to 10 still in my opinion, he's a very good goal kicker - better than Cipriani and Ford IMO, certainly at club level anyhow.

He has a much superior brain and vision compared to OF.

I could see him being a very good 10 with a dominant pack in front of him, and I'm not entirely against trying him at 15.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Apr 2016, 5:00 pm

Ah you mean May! Who would you look to be developing. You wanted 3 deep in every position?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 04 Apr 2016, 5:01 pm

Goode tried and failed at 10 a few years back.

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 04 Apr 2016, 5:44 pm

Kruis in danger of missing the tour.

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