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England want to poach another Welsh player

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England want to poach another Welsh player Empty England want to poach another Welsh player

Post by LordDowlais Mon 11 Apr 2016, 3:39 pm

Well. if Gatland does not want to cap him, somebody else does, Thomas Young, the son of Welsh and British Lion Dai Young is ripping up trees for Wasps apparently, and England want in, they have already made enquiries and the ball is now in Thomas's court, who do you think he will end up pledging his allegiances to ? 


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-make-audacious-bid-entice-11168337


I don't think a country as small as Wales can afford to lose out on players myself.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 11 Apr 2016, 3:41 pm

Bit of a wummy headline.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon 11 Apr 2016, 3:42 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bit of a wummy headline.


Why ?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 11 Apr 2016, 3:45 pm

Why would it be poaching. Inflammatory term in general around this subject. Hence a bit wummy.

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 11 Apr 2016, 3:48 pm

Idiotic article and headline by WoL as they admit early on that Young is tied to Wales via an U20 cap against France. Hugely inflammatory headline for this OP.

Complete and utter non-story.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 11 Apr 2016, 3:50 pm

But England’s attempt to capture him has been scuppered because Young played against France for Wales Under-20s back in 2011.

As, like Wales, the French Under-20s team is in effect the next side down from the senior set-up, that appearance tied Young to Wales for the rest of his career.

Pretty black and white to me...he cant play for England!

But England will have Underhill, im pretty sure.

And with Ewers, Nathan Hughes, etc etc...I don't think we'll be short of flankers.

One with an English accent would be nice though!!

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Post by RiscaGame Mon 11 Apr 2016, 3:51 pm

It isn't the best of headlines that you've offered.

Which backrower should Wales get rid of or not cap to fit him in? We aren't exactly short of backrow players.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 11 Apr 2016, 3:52 pm

I didn't even read WoL and given that sentence neither did LD.

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Post by RiscaGame Mon 11 Apr 2016, 3:53 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Idiotic article and headline by WoL as they admit early on that Young is tied to Wales via an U20 cap against France. Hugely inflammatory headline for this OP.

Complete and utter non-story.

Ah, thanks for saving me a read and giving them a click. I'm sure Dowlais will acknowledge his error and his poor choice of headline.

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 11 Apr 2016, 4:31 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
But England’s attempt to capture him has been scuppered because Young played against France for Wales Under-20s back in 2011.

As, like Wales, the French Under-20s team is in effect the next side down from the senior set-up, that appearance tied Young to Wales for the rest of his career.

Pretty black and white to me...he cant play for England!

But England will have Underhill, im pretty sure.

And with Ewers, Nathan Hughes, etc etc...I don't think we'll be short of flankers.

One with an English accent would be nice though!!
That'll be Underhill then, unless he has gone all "Barry Island" to try and fit in at University

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Post by fa0019 Mon 11 Apr 2016, 4:43 pm

All player registration forms in England are the same right... for pro's for amateurs.

It has a box saying are you eligible to play for England.

I wouldn't see why it was on amateur forms and not professionals? Remember but up until the 90s we had players coming from 3rd/4th division sides such as Preston Grasshoppers (Wade Dooley). Its probably a hangover from the amateur days.

If that's the case Young probably said he was available as he was on the system. That or the RFU is filled with complete numpties that they couldn't distinguish their a*** from their elbows. Probably the  latter to be fair.

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 11 Apr 2016, 4:53 pm

Yes pro teams have the same player registration form. Now Young has not been in England the requisite number of years, but if he has been registered as EQP then Wasps will be liable for the same punishment London Welsh received.

However I do not believe that there is any indication as such. Much more likely that Eddie Jones just asked the question and was told no, he will not be available.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 11 Apr 2016, 6:23 pm

I'm not being funny, but he's nowhere near good enough to play for England. He's looked decent in a good Wasps side, but so has Gopperth.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Apr 2016, 6:59 pm

This has all the markings of a LordDowlais thread. Poorly researched and designed to wind-up. I await his return to this thread to shout everyone down who disagrees with his original post.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 11 Apr 2016, 9:22 pm

Why poach?

I thought they were much better fried

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Post by RiscaGame Mon 11 Apr 2016, 10:31 pm

Delme Halfwit has clarified his position and said his article was meant to be pointing out that England have asked about Young whereas Wales haven't. Obvious from the article though, no? Wink

I'm sure Dowlais' intentions were just to aid the Wails clicks (as per usual) and not to unnecessarily provoke people.

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Post by Gooseberry Tue 12 Apr 2016, 7:45 am

RiscaGame wrote:

I'm sure Dowlais' intentions were just to aid the Wails clicks (as per usual) and not to unnecessarily provoke people.

If only Marler had used that defence Rolling Eyes

To be fair the walesonline article also uses the phrase "poaching" to describe the approaches for George North Young.

The enquiries were to ascertain his eligability, that doesnt necaserially mean that they were planning to pick him...just add him to the list of available players.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 12 Apr 2016, 11:51 am

Has LD abandoned this as a bad job?

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 12 Apr 2016, 12:12 pm

lostinwales wrote:Why poach?

I thought they were much better fried

Because they breed them tough in the Valleys

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 12 Apr 2016, 12:16 pm

Poor Wales. Why do players choose not to play for them?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 12 Apr 2016, 12:43 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Poor Wales. Why do players choose not to play for them?

He has.... Headscratch

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Post by RiscaGame Tue 12 Apr 2016, 12:44 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Has LD abandoned this as a bad job?

Probably for the best. Though he did achieve his usual goal of gaining the wail clicks, so I reckon the thread has achieved its aim.

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Post by HammerofThunor Tue 12 Apr 2016, 12:45 pm

Out of curiosity, who was the last Wales player poached?

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 12 Apr 2016, 12:46 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Out of curiosity, who was the last Wales player poached?

Not sure, but Mike Phillips was the last one pickled.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 12 Apr 2016, 12:47 pm

Dewi morris?
Didn't we just swap him for Rupert Moon though?

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Post by HammerofThunor Tue 12 Apr 2016, 12:48 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Out of curiosity, who was the last Wales player poached?

Not sure, but Mike Phillips was the last one pickled.

Wasn't that Andy Powell?

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 12 Apr 2016, 12:50 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Out of curiosity, who was the last Wales player poached?

Not sure, but Mike Phillips was the last one pickled.

Wasn't that Andy Powell?

Powell was pickled, sozzled and sauteed.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 12 Apr 2016, 12:53 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Out of curiosity, who was the last Wales player poached?

Mathew Protheroe. OK

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Post by True Raven Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:02 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Out of curiosity, who was the last Wales player poached?

Mathew Protheroe. OK

Except he hasn't been capped by England or called up to the England Saxons or first team

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:04 pm

He's playing for the U20's though. So he's been poached. He should be representing Wales U20's, but he's not, because he has been poached by England.

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Post by True Raven Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:08 pm

LordDowlais wrote:He's playing for the U20's though. So he's been poached. He should be representing Wales U20's, but he's not, because he has been poached by England.

No he chose to play for the England under 18's and 20's as its the development pathway for him. Playing for Wales under 20's would have tied him into to Wales whereas playing in the English development system hasn't affected his chances of gaining a pro contract with Gloucester.

He's still eligible for Wales and therefore not poached by England....He's in the exact same situation as Moriarty was.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:09 pm

True Raven wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:He's playing for the U20's though. So he's been poached. He should be representing Wales U20's, but he's not, because he has been poached by England.

No he chose to play for the England under 18's and 20's as its the development pathway for him.  Playing for Wales under 20's would have tied him into to Wales whereas playing in the English development system hasn't affected his chances of gaining a pro contract with Gloucester.

He's still eligible for Wales and therefore not poached by England....He's in the exact same situation as Moriarty was.

Beat me to it....

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:14 pm

He's been poached by the England U20's set-up. He should be playing for Wales U20's as he is Welsh. He did not wake up one morning and think, I know, I think I will play for England U20's. No, the English U20's approached him and made him an offer, thus he was poached.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:14 pm

So what was Moriarty doing?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:18 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:So what was Moriarty doing?


The same thing I presume. Until the senior honours came along and he saw sense.

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Post by True Raven Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:23 pm

LordDowlais wrote:He's been poached by the England U20's set-up. He should be playing for Wales U20's as he is Welsh. He did not wake up one morning and think, I know, I think I will play for England U20's. No, the English U20's approached him and made him an offer, thus he was poached.

He probably did actually as he was playing age grade rugby for England before the under 20's.

Playing for England under 20's does not cap him to England therefore he hasn't been poached.

There's numerous examples of english and welsh lads playing for each other's countries at age grade level because you tend to play for the country you go to school in hence Mako and Billy Vunipola playing for East Wales.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:24 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:So what was Moriarty doing?


The same thing I presume. Until the senior honours came along and he saw sense.

Ah right of course thumbsup

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Post by True Raven Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:24 pm

I should add that if Wales didn't make the under 20's their designated second team then he may have played for Wales under 20's, but Protheroe is thinking about his future in the game as doesn't want to be tied down with Wales yet as it may affect his chances with Gloucester

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:26 pm

True Raven wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:He's been poached by the England U20's set-up. He should be playing for Wales U20's as he is Welsh. He did not wake up one morning and think, I know, I think I will play for England U20's. No, the English U20's approached him and made him an offer, thus he was poached.

He probably did actually as he was playing age grade rugby for England before the under 20's.  

Playing for England under 20's does not cap him to England therefore he hasn't been poached.

There's numerous examples of english and welsh lads playing for each other's countries at age grade level because you tend to play for the country you go to school in hence Mako and Billy Vunipola playing for East Wales.

It might be better if that rule was changed and it might stop these little issues from occurring. Having the U20 as the deal sealer rather than the Saxons.

I would rather see players like Moriarty playing for the Wales youth teams rather than England.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:29 pm

I also think it is a travesty of justice that you cannot pledge your allegiance to the country of your birth at a young age as it might go against you when you are older. 

Why should the fact that a young Welshman pledging their allegiance to Wales should get in the way of him getting a pro contract at an English club ?

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Post by True Raven Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:31 pm

Problem is Geordie Falcon is that Wales never asked Moriarty to be part of their age grade level and England did.

Personally, id scrap the second designated team. If for example there is a dual qualified tight head player in the saxons and cant get a call up to the senior squad then i dont see any harm in him playing for his 'second' country. E.g i'd have no problem Steve Shingler playing for Scotland as senior level as he's not good enough for Wales at flyhalf despite being capped at under 20's

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Post by True Raven Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:33 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I also think it is a travesty of justice that you cannot pledge your allegiance to the country of your birth at a young age as it might go against you when you are older. 

Why should the fact that a young Welshman pledging their allegiance to Wales should get in the way of him getting a pro contract at an English club ?

Why should playing for an age grade team tie you in forever to that country when it's not a capped international.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:39 pm

True Raven wrote:Why should playing for an age grade team tie you in forever to that country when it's not a capped international.

It should make no difference either way. OK

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Post by majesticimperialman Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:42 pm

I did not realise that if you play for the under 20s for one country. Then you cannot play senior rugby for another country.


I thought the idea was that if you get just ( A cap ) at senior level than you cannot play for any other country.

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Post by Sin é Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:43 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I also think it is a travesty of justice that you cannot pledge your allegiance to the country of your birth at a young age as it might go against you when you are older. 

Why should the fact that a young Welshman pledging their allegiance to Wales should get in the way of him getting a pro contract at an English club ?

Its also wrong to force a kid to choose at that age just on circumstances of where they were born when they grew up in another country. All of those lads would probably be equally honored to play for either country.
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Post by Sin é Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:45 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:I did not realise that if you play for the under 20s for one country. Then you cannot play senior rugby for another country.


I thought the idea was that if you get just ( A  cap ) at senior level than you cannot play for any other country.

It only occurs for countries (like Wales) who designate their U20s as their 2nd team. Most other countries designate their 'A' team as their 2nd team which ties you to a country. Australia & New Zealand use their 7s team I think

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Post by True Raven Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:48 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:I did not realise that if you play for the under 20s for one country. Then you cannot play senior rugby for another country.


I thought the idea was that if you get just ( A  cap ) at senior level than you cannot play for any other country.

Only if you're part of under 20's set up and play agaiinst another under 20's where both teams are their countries second designated team i.e have no A team. In the six nations under 20's, both Wales and France have their under 20's as the second designated team so any player who plays in that match is tied to that country.

It's why last year Callum Sheedy and Rory Bartle who both were in English academies pulled out of the Welsh squad as the didn't want to jeopardise their careers with Bristol and Gloucester respectively.

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Post by True Raven Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:50 pm

Sin é wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:I did not realise that if you play for the under 20s for one country. Then you cannot play senior rugby for another country.


I thought the idea was that if you get just ( A  cap ) at senior level than you cannot play for any other country.

It only occurs for countries (like Wales) who designate their U20s as their 2nd team. Most other countries designate their 'A' team as their 2nd team which ties you to a country. Australia & New Zealand use their 7s team I think


I think Sin e that if you play for a 7s team, you are tied to that country regardless as I know Wales use that method to tie in players too....I could be wrong though

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:51 pm

Sin é wrote:Its also wrong to force a kid to choose at that age just on circumstances of where they were born when they grew up in another country. All of those lads would probably be equally honored to play for either country

Who said anything about forcing anyone ?

A young Welsh kid born and raised in Swansea cannot represent his country at age grade level as it might affect him getting a pro contract with Gloucester.

Do you think that scenario is fair ?

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Post by lostinwales Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:01 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Sin é wrote:Its also wrong to force a kid to choose at that age just on circumstances of where they were born when they grew up in another country. All of those lads would probably be equally honored to play for either country

Who said anything about forcing anyone ?

A young Welsh kid born and raised in Swansea cannot represent his country at age grade level as it might affect him getting a pro contract with Gloucester.

Do you think that scenario is fair ?

Why should AP teams fill their squads with non EQ players and hinder the development of EQ players? Of course they do - but then there are incentives for them not to which leads to a balance - and which means if they have to choose between 2 players of similar ability and one is EQ and the other not then they will keep the EQ one.

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