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Scotland's Summer Tests, 18 & 25 June

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Total Votes : 35
 

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Post by Nematode Mon 18 Apr 2016, 1:20 pm

First topic message reminder :



SCOTLAND'S SUMMER TESTS

Scotland's Summer Tests, 18 & 25 June - Page 6 Japan10 Scotland's Summer Tests, 18 & 25 June - Page 6 Scot_f10    
JAPAN SCOTLAND 
Sat 18 June 2016 
Venue: Toyota Stadium, Toyota City, Aichi
Coverage: Live on BBC
KO: 7.20pm local/11.20am GMT

Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zealand)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

5 Played 5
0 Won 5
0 Drawn 0
5 Lost 0
55 Points 266 

B. Recent Form

23 September 2015
Scotland 45-10 Japan
Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester

09 Nov 2013
Scotland 42 - 17 Japan
Murrayfield, Edinburgh

13 Nov 2004
Scotland 100 - 8 Japan
McDiarmid Park, Perth

12 Oct 2003
Scotland 32 - 11 Japan
Dairy Farmers Stadium, Townsville

05 Oct 1991
Scotland 47 - 9 Japan
Murrayfield, Edinburgh

C. Teams

JAPAN 
[*]

SCOTLAND 
[*]

Scotland's Summer Tests, 18 & 25 June - Page 6 Nagoya_Grampus_game_in_Toyota_Stadium_100814

Scotland's Summer Tests, 18 & 25 June - Page 6 Japan10 Scotland's Summer Tests, 18 & 25 June - Page 6 Scot_f10    
JAPAN SCOTLAND 
Sat 25 June 2016 
Venue: Ajinomoto Stadium, Tokyo
Coverage: Live on BBC
KO: 7.20pm local/11.20am GMT

Referee: Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

[5 Played 5
0 Won 5
0 Drawn 0
5 Lost 0
55 Points 266]

B. Recent Form 

18 June 2016
Japan * - * Scotland 
Toyota Stadium, Toyota

23 September 2015 
Scotland 45-10 Japan
Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester

09 Nov 2013
Scotland 42 - 17 Japan
Murrayfield, Edinburgh

13 Nov 2004
Scotland 100 - 8 Japan
McDiarmid Park, Perth

12 Oct 2003
Scotland 32 - 11 Japan
Dairy Farmers Stadium, Townsville

05 Oct 1991
Scotland 47 - 9 Japan
Murrayfield, Edinburgh

C. Teams

JAPAN 

[*]

SCOTLAND 

[*]

Scotland's Summer Tests, 18 & 25 June - Page 6 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTJvWqd-_KlkpmlO7gzsFERjmfrSimzpGuZnD29bHbMWedvYivBxg

Scotland / Japan history:

2015: Scotland 45-10 Japan, Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester (RWC 2015)
2013: Scotland 42-17 Japan, BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh
2010: Scotland XV 24-5 Japan Select, BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh (uncapped match)
2004: Scotland 100-8 Japan, McDiarmid Park, Perth
2003: Japan 11-32 Scotland, Dairy Farmers Stadium, Townsville (RWC 2003)
1991: Scotland 47-9 Japan, BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh (RWC 1991)
1989: Japan 28-24 Scotland XV, Prince Chichibu Memorial Stadium, Tokyo (uncapped match)
1986: Scotland XV 33-18 Japan, BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh (uncapped match)
1977: Japan 9-74 Scotland XV, Olympic Stadium, Tokyo (uncapped match)
1976: Scotland XV 34-9 Japan,  BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh (uncapped match)

Scotland Squad:
Scotland's Summer Tests, 18 & 25 June - Page 6 ST16_squad_1200_dh-700x990


Last edited by Nematode on Tue 10 May 2016, 9:46 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by George Carlin Mon 13 Jun 2016, 10:40 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
jimbopip wrote:My main concern is the schedule. The team arrived in Japan yesterday and my experience of jet-lag is that it tends to bite about three days after the journey. Oh and it's worse travelling east to west, which the squad have just done. So they should be feeling grotty on Wednesday which is their travel day to Nagoya. I can't see them being fit and ready to play come Saturday. Also, if Handsome Richie played yesterday there's no way he will be fit to start on Saturday.

Scotland to Japan is East to West? I didn't realise Japan was commonly referred to as being in the 'far west'.... Very Happy
I hope that's not true. If it is, that means that I live in the Middle West which I believe means I need to marry my cousin, take up the banjo, start chewing tobacco and look after my 3 remaining teeth.

I left Scotland specifically so that I wouldn't have to do any of these things.
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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 13 Jun 2016, 10:42 am

Yep, it would be Scott and Taylor starting for me, with Horne on the bench. I agree that Hoyland should start as well, with Maitland on the bench.

In fact this is what I would go with:

1.Dickinson 2.McInally 3.Nel 4.Swinson 5.J Gray 6.Strauss 7.Hardie 8.Denton 9.Laidlaw(c) 10.Jackson 11.Seymour 12.Scott 13.Taylor 14.Hoyland 15.Hogg

16.Sutherland 17.Ford 18.Low 19.R Gray 20.Barclay 21.Pyrgos 22.Horne 23.Maitland

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Post by RDW Mon 13 Jun 2016, 10:53 am

I like that team FES but think he’ll stick with the 6N players – i.e. Ford (whose form is totally unjustified) and Barclay in the pack. He may surprise us though!

I’m certain Ryan Wilson is going to be in the 23 too – he loves him almost as much as he loves Swinson.

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Post by jimbopip Mon 13 Jun 2016, 10:54 am

I think Nel, Chinhook in Waiting and Dickinson all need a rest after the way Solomans has flogged them this season. Yes, I know Chinhook -in-Waiting spent most of it on the bench but that requires a lot of mental energy watching the master at work.

So, I'd go:
1. Low
2.Brown
3. Sutherland
4. Jonny
5. Tiny Tim
6. Bluto
7. Barclay
8. Batman
9. Henners
10.Jackson
11. Maitland
12. Furra Linee
13 Taylor
14. Seymour
15. Hoggie

That looks very like a team that could win things. Whistle

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Post by RDW Mon 13 Jun 2016, 10:55 am

jimbopip wrote:I think Nel, Chinhook in Waiting and Dickinson all need a rest after the way Solomans has flogged them this season. Yes, I know Chinhook -in-Waiting spent most of it on the bench but that requires a lot of mental energy watching the master at work.

So, I'd go:
1. Low
2.Brown
3. Sutherland
4. Jonny
5. Tiny Tim
6. Bluto
7. Barclay
8. Batman
9. Henners
10.Jackson
11. Maitland
12. Furra Linee
13 Taylor
14. Seymour
15. Hoggie

That looks very like a team that could win things. Whistle

Except the fact that you have a loosehead at 3 and a tighthead at 1...

If the Edinburgh front row were to be rested they wouldn't have been picked in the squad!

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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 13 Jun 2016, 11:13 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:I like that team FES but think he’ll stick with the 6N players – i.e. Ford (whose form is totally unjustified) and Barclay in the pack. He may surprise us though!

I’m certain Ryan Wilson is going to be in the 23 too – he loves him almost as much as he loves Swinson.

This is true. I was going for the team I would pick, but there's no question Ryan Wilson will feature prominently on this tour, much to the delight of Japan.

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Post by jimbopip Mon 13 Jun 2016, 11:21 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
jimbopip wrote:I think Nel, Chinhook in Waiting and Dickinson all need a rest after the way Solomans has flogged them this season. Yes, I know Chinhook -in-Waiting spent most of it on the bench but that requires a lot of mental energy watching the master at work.

So, I'd go:
1. Low
2.Brown
3. Sutherland
4. Jonny
5. Tiny Tim
6. Bluto
7. Barclay
8. Batman
9. Henners
10.Jackson
11. Maitland
12. Furra Linee
13 Taylor
14. Seymour
15. Hoggie

That looks very like a team that could win things. Whistle

Except the fact that you have a loosehead at 3 and a tighthead at 1...

If the Edinburgh front row were to be rested they wouldn't have been picked in the squad!

I did that in honour of the late Muhammed Ali, whose trainer, Angelo Dundee ( which is on the east coast... so lots of jet lag when you travel from Ardrossan) once said when asked about fitness, "These big guys! You don't worry about fitness ; as long as they're on their feet and sober they're fit enough." This is roughly my attitude towards props. Besides most of the ones I played alongside never looked at the numbers on the jerseys lest it confused them.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Mon 13 Jun 2016, 11:23 am

jimbopip wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
jimbopip wrote:I think Nel, Chinhook in Waiting and Dickinson all need a rest after the way Solomans has flogged them this season. Yes, I know Chinhook -in-Waiting spent most of it on the bench but that requires a lot of mental energy watching the master at work.

So, I'd go:
1. Low
2.Brown
3. Sutherland
4. Jonny
5. Tiny Tim
6. Bluto
7. Barclay
8. Batman
9. Henners
10.Jackson
11. Maitland
12. Furra Linee
13 Taylor
14. Seymour
15. Hoggie

That looks very like a team that could win things. Whistle

Except the fact that you have a loosehead at 3 and a tighthead at 1...

If the Edinburgh front row were to be rested they wouldn't have been picked in the squad!

I did that in honour of the late Muhammed Ali, whose trainer, Angelo Dundee ( which is on the east coast... so lots of jet lag when you travel from Ardrossan) once said when asked about fitness, "These big guys! You don't worry about fitness ; as long as they're on their feet and sober they're fit enough." This is roughly my attitude towards props. Besides most of the ones I played alongside never looked at the numbers on the jerseys lest it confused them.

It reminds me of Jason Leonard, who when asked how he became so adept at scrummaging on both sides said that in his day which side you scrummaged depended on who got to the scrum first. Legend.


Last edited by funnyExiledScot on Mon 13 Jun 2016, 11:24 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Change "scummage" (as aspect of Glasgow) to "scrummage" (as aspect of rugby).)

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Post by cakeordeath Mon 13 Jun 2016, 12:30 pm

George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
jimbopip wrote:My main concern is the schedule. The team arrived in Japan yesterday and my experience of jet-lag is that it tends to bite about three days after the journey. Oh and it's worse travelling east to west, which the squad have just done. So they should be feeling grotty on Wednesday which is their travel day to Nagoya. I can't see them being fit and ready to play come Saturday. Also, if Handsome Richie played yesterday there's no way he will be fit to start on Saturday.

Scotland to Japan is East to West? I didn't realise Japan was commonly referred to as being in the 'far west'.... Very Happy
I hope that's not true. If it is, that means that I live in the Middle West which I believe means I need to marry my cousin, take up the banjo, start chewing tobacco and look after my 3 remaining teeth.

I left Scotland specifically so that I wouldn't have to do any of these things.

You could have just left Ayr, would have been a lot easier


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Post by George Carlin Mon 13 Jun 2016, 12:34 pm

cakeordeath wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
jimbopip wrote:My main concern is the schedule. The team arrived in Japan yesterday and my experience of jet-lag is that it tends to bite about three days after the journey. Oh and it's worse travelling east to west, which the squad have just done. So they should be feeling grotty on Wednesday which is their travel day to Nagoya. I can't see them being fit and ready to play come Saturday. Also, if Handsome Richie played yesterday there's no way he will be fit to start on Saturday.

Scotland to Japan is East to West? I didn't realise Japan was commonly referred to as being in the 'far west'.... Very Happy
I hope that's not true. If it is, that means that I live in the Middle West which I believe means I need to marry my cousin, take up the banjo, start chewing tobacco and look after my 3 remaining teeth.

I left Scotland specifically so that I wouldn't have to do any of these things.

You could have just left Ayr, would have been a lot easier
I just wanted to hold on to that World Class status that little bit longer:

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Post by RDW Mon 13 Jun 2016, 3:43 pm

So Richie Gray ended up playing 80 minutes yesterday because his 2nd row partner went off injured after 30 minutes - they lost badly too so it's not as if his effort was worth it which is a shame!

Apparently he is due to arrive in Japan today but i'd be amazed if was fit to start on Saturday.

He'll certainly stand out in Japan - 6ft 10 and bright blonde hair!

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Post by Hazel Sapling Mon 13 Jun 2016, 3:59 pm

They really did screw up the squad balance. I am surprised there is not a Richie Gray wig on sale yet.



Last edited by Hazel Sapling on Mon 13 Jun 2016, 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Sorry got the wrong thread)

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Post by RDW Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:06 am

Several years ago Andy Robinson made the decision not to schedule any tours to the big 3 for our summer tours.

Looking at how badly Wales’s backup team were pumped by the Chiefs this morning, and the fact that several of the players who will play in the 2nd test on Saturday had to play, that is looking like a good decision. I fear for Wales over the next 2 tests – this tour really was a huge ask.

Can you imagine our squad going on a 3 test tour plus a mid-week game against a Super Rugby side?

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Post by Hazel Sapling Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:15 am

To be honest, I would like to see how Glasgow would do against an SR side. It would be good for them to go on a 3 match series to see how far off the pace they are.

Scotland need to play some of the better sides internationally to improve. I think something like playing Namibia and 3 tests in SA would work well in 2018 or play the Sunwolves in Singapore then Aus for 3 tests with week breaks in between.

The big error is playing a mid week game between tests.

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Post by RDW Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:21 am

The problem with stretching it to 4 weeks is that you either have to play a game a week after the end of season finals (which some players may be involved in) or you extended it a week past the international window, and therefore you can't pick players outside of Glasgow/Edinburgh.

We saw how well that went against SA a couple of summers ago!

Imagine if we had a midweek game against a SR team and had to put the following out:

Sutherland
McInally
Low
Swinson
Toolis
Harley
Watson
Wilson

Pyrgos
Weir
Lamont
Horne
Jones
Hoyland
Maitland

We'd be annihilated!

Injuries play a part too - we're down to one out and out 10 in the squad as things stand and our centre resources are looking thin too.

It really is a difficult one because we need more games against the top teams but I don't think we'd benefit from having those in a summer test series and getting pumped each game and picking up more injuries.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:23 am

Hazel Sapling wrote:To be honest, I would like to see how Glasgow would do against an SR side. It would be good for them to go on a 3 match series to see how far off the pace they are.

Scotland need to play some of the better sides internationally to improve. I think something like playing Namibia and 3 tests in SA would work well in 2018 or play the Sunwolves in Singapore then Aus for 3 tests with week breaks in between.

The big error is playing a mid week game between tests.

You don't get positives from getting smashed 30-0. The SH is a tough place to tour. I think they have it about right at the moment. All teams need confidence and wins... plucky losses only help you so much. The Japan tour is probably on par with one to Argentina. The AIs are well balanced. Australia, Argentina and Georgia. All 3 are winnable.

You have to earn 3N 3 test tours. At the moment regardless of positive displays in matches they haven't done so and need to beat their home nations counterparts more regularly to warrant such a tour. The 3N sides don't simply do it purely as warm up games.

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Post by RDW Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:50 am

fa0019 wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:To be honest, I would like to see how Glasgow would do against an SR side. It would be good for them to go on a 3 match series to see how far off the pace they are.

Scotland need to play some of the better sides internationally to improve. I think something like playing Namibia and 3 tests in SA would work well in 2018 or play the Sunwolves in Singapore then Aus for 3 tests with week breaks in between.

The big error is playing a mid week game between tests.

You don't get positives from getting smashed 30-0. The SH is a tough place to tour. I think they have it about right at the moment. All teams need confidence and wins... plucky losses only help you so much. The Japan tour is probably on par with one to Argentina. The AIs are well balanced. Australia, Argentina and Georgia. All 3 are winnable.

You have to earn 3N 3 test tours. At the moment regardless of positive displays in matches they haven't done so and need to beat their home nations counterparts more regularly to warrant such a tour. The 3N sides don't simply do it purely as warm up games.

This is a fair point and we have to accept where we are and what our standing is in international rugby - the top 3 won't be overly interested in a 3 test tour with Scotland any time soon.

We were meant to play Australia in a mid-week game this tour but they pulled out of it. Perhaps not surprising given what happened last time we did that!

I'd love to see us have a crack at Australia or South Africa over a 3 test tour, with a full squad at a reasonable time of the season (i.e. the AIs would be perfect), but that will never happen.

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Post by Hazel Sapling Tue 14 Jun 2016, 11:08 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:To be honest, I would like to see how Glasgow would do against an SR side. It would be good for them to go on a 3 match series to see how far off the pace they are.

Scotland need to play some of the better sides internationally to improve. I think something like playing Namibia and 3 tests in SA would work well in 2018 or play the Sunwolves in Singapore then Aus for 3 tests with week breaks in between.

The big error is playing a mid week game between tests.

You don't get positives from getting smashed 30-0. The SH is a tough place to tour. I think they have it about right at the moment. All teams need confidence and wins... plucky losses only help you so much. The Japan tour is probably on par with one to Argentina. The AIs are well balanced. Australia, Argentina and Georgia. All 3 are winnable.

You have to earn 3N 3 test tours. At the moment regardless of positive displays in matches they haven't done so and need to beat their home nations counterparts more regularly to warrant such a tour. The 3N sides don't simply do it purely as warm up games.

This is a fair point and we have to accept where we are and what our standing is in international rugby - the top 3 won't be overly interested in a 3 test tour with Scotland any time soon.

We were meant to play Australia in a mid-week game this tour but they pulled out of it. Perhaps not surprising given what happened last time we did that!

I'd love to see us have a crack at Australia or South Africa over a 3 test tour, with a full squad at a reasonable time of the season (i.e. the AIs would be perfect), but that will never happen.

I am not surprised they are not interested as Scotland are not big commercially and are roughly 8th in the world. My issue with it is how do Scotland get used to the intensity of top tier rugby when, at best, they get 2 tests against top 4 nations a year (England and a test against one of the big 3 in the AI). Last time NZ played Scotland it was 16-24 in a fairly tight game 2 years ago and Australia have struggled in recent years against Scotland (SA have dominated us physically). Scotland need to have a series of games where the intensity is brutal to get players on board with what they have to do, not a big game once in a while. I agree with RDW that the AI's would be fantastic for that. At the moment I feel the AI's should be eliminated or moved to improve the continuity of the domestic season.

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Post by RDW Tue 14 Jun 2016, 11:11 am

The other thing is, like everything else, it comes down to money.

My understanding is that the vast majority of AI money goes to the home team, so the summer tours are the top 3's way of making their own money.

They won't see a 3 test tour against Scotland as a highly marketable event.

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Post by EST Tue 14 Jun 2016, 11:31 am

It's a difficult balancing act, Scotland struggle to achieve the required intensity when coming up agains the best teams and only regular game time at that level will fix that. However, In our current situation, we don't have the playing resources to make a three tour series worthwhile. We would be thrashed.


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Post by fa0019 Tue 14 Jun 2016, 11:36 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:The other thing is, like everything else, it comes down to money.

My understanding is that the vast majority of AI money goes to the home team, so the summer tours are the top 3's way of making their own money.

They won't see a 3 test tour against Scotland as a highly marketable event.

Just as much as Wales if not a little more.... NZ will have a large interest in Scotland commercially; a little less than Ireland given they seem to export the majority of thei adults on their 18th birthday to the far reaches of the globe.

The real martability is competition. If the 3N sees you as a threat, you will be treated with far greater coverage from both fans, media and players. That takes wins, scalps you name it. I think the games at the moment suit Scotland well. I think their is a lot of genuine optimism.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 14 Jun 2016, 11:52 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Several years ago Andy Robinson made the decision not to schedule any tours to the big 3 for our summer tours.

Looking at how badly Wales’s backup team were pumped by the Chiefs this morning, and the fact that several of the players who will play in the 2nd test on Saturday had to play, that is looking like a good decision. I fear for Wales over the next 2 tests – this tour really was a huge ask.

Can you imagine our squad going on a 3 test tour plus a mid-week game against a Super Rugby side?


Agreed. I can't help but feel that Gatland has used this tour as a Lions scouting mission. The Welsh squad is in bits and they are about to go to the Cake Tin. They are going to get badly hammered in the next couple of matches - the Chiefs game was a bridge too far.

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Post by RDW Tue 14 Jun 2016, 11:53 am

I know that the likes of TJ has different views from me on this but I think we also need to set realistic targets – there’s no point saying we’re going to be a team that can compete with a top 3 nations over a 3 test tour in the next few years, because that’s just not going to happen. There’s a lot of steps to go before we can get there, and we may never do.

- First things first we’ve got to regularly beat teams around us in the rankings – that means Japan this summer and Argentina in the autumn. We should never be in doubt that we’re going to beat Italy, even away from home. The current France team should be a real opportunity and this year’s win over them shouldn’t be a one off occurrence for the next 4 years.

- The next step is to regularly compete in the 6N and be a team that wins more home games than it loses and picks up wins on the road against teams other than Italy.

- Following that we have a real go at the 6N and put in a run of games that makes us stand a chance going into the final weekend.

- The final stage of development is winning the 6N and maybe even making it to a world cup semi-final.

That’s as far as we need to reach IMO before genuinely becoming team capable of being competitive over a 3 test tour with the top 3. Being completely realistic I think the 2nd step is the most achievable target, at least up until the next world cup. The 3rd step would require a huge step change in our ability as a rugby nation – something akin to what Wales did when they won their first 6N GS.

I put huge focus on the 6N there and I class 6N results as more important as our world cup showing – we’re never going to win the world cup, but winning the 6N is not a completely ridiculous idea.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 14 Jun 2016, 11:55 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Several years ago Andy Robinson made the decision not to schedule any tours to the big 3 for our summer tours.

Looking at how badly Wales’s backup team were pumped by the Chiefs this morning, and the fact that several of the players who will play in the 2nd test on Saturday had to play, that is looking like a good decision. I fear for Wales over the next 2 tests – this tour really was a huge ask.

Can you imagine our squad going on a 3 test tour plus a mid-week game against a Super Rugby side?


Agreed. I can't help but feel that Gatland has used this tour as a Lions scouting mission. The Welsh squad is in bits and they are about to go to the Cake Tin. They are going to get badly hammered in the next couple of matches - the Chiefs game was a bridge too far.

I wonder what useful scouting data he got from 4 losses inc. one vs. the 2nd best club in NZ's 2nd XV.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 14 Jun 2016, 12:04 pm

fa0019 wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Several years ago Andy Robinson made the decision not to schedule any tours to the big 3 for our summer tours.

Looking at how badly Wales’s backup team were pumped by the Chiefs this morning, and the fact that several of the players who will play in the 2nd test on Saturday had to play, that is looking like a good decision. I fear for Wales over the next 2 tests – this tour really was a huge ask.

Can you imagine our squad going on a 3 test tour plus a mid-week game against a Super Rugby side?


Agreed. I can't help but feel that Gatland has used this tour as a Lions scouting mission. The Welsh squad is in bits and they are about to go to the Cake Tin. They are going to get badly hammered in the next couple of matches - the Chiefs game was a bridge too far.

I wonder what useful scouting data he got from 4 losses inc. one vs. the 2nd best club in NZ's 2nd XV.

Well if he didn't know already, he'll know that the standard of rugby in the midweek games is going to be brutally high!! He'll also know that using Wales as a template for the Lions, for this tour, will end in tears.

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Post by fa0019 Tue 14 Jun 2016, 12:45 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Several years ago Andy Robinson made the decision not to schedule any tours to the big 3 for our summer tours.

Looking at how badly Wales’s backup team were pumped by the Chiefs this morning, and the fact that several of the players who will play in the 2nd test on Saturday had to play, that is looking like a good decision. I fear for Wales over the next 2 tests – this tour really was a huge ask.

Can you imagine our squad going on a 3 test tour plus a mid-week game against a Super Rugby side?


Agreed. I can't help but feel that Gatland has used this tour as a Lions scouting mission. The Welsh squad is in bits and they are about to go to the Cake Tin. They are going to get badly hammered in the next couple of matches - the Chiefs game was a bridge too far.

I wonder what useful scouting data he got from 4 losses inc. one vs. the 2nd best club in NZ's 2nd XV.

Well if he didn't know already, he'll know that the standard of rugby in the midweek games is going to be brutally high!! He'll also know that using Wales as a template for the Lions, for this tour, will end in tears.

Perhaps... leave the job to Joe..... I'm off the the highlanders 2017.

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Post by Hazel Sapling Tue 14 Jun 2016, 1:14 pm

Townsend would be a good assistant to take along. Schmidt would be a decent choice but would need a good forwards coach. Maybe a Robinson, Farrell (if he does well with Ireland) or the Welsh defensive coach.

Anyway the team is announced Wednesday or Thursday? Looking forward to seeing if Jones will get put on the bench as the 23 (covers 13 and wing). We could viably have a Taylor-Jones centre pairing.

Want to see an alternative front row of Sutherland/McInally/Low to see how they get on.

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Post by George Carlin Tue 14 Jun 2016, 3:19 pm

This stuff makes me laugh.

Scotland are criticised and ridiculed for playing a 'minnow' like Japan twice, despite the fact that it is an appropriate challenge and there are World Rugby ranking points to play for.

What exactly (apart from a drinking problem) are Wales going to get out of being stuffed three times by the All Blacks? Bugger all, is what.
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Post by reallybored Tue 14 Jun 2016, 3:22 pm

My guess for this weekend

15 - Hogg
14 - Seymour
13 - Taylor
12 - Horne (was in the squad ahead of Scott or Jones, more creative & left footed)
11 - Maitland (Vern's not a gambling man, winning 1st test is too important)
10 - Jackson (got to assume he's second choice to Russell right now, possibly Horne?)
9 - Laidlaw

8 - Denton (tough season with Bath and injuries but very much Cotter's 1st choice at 8)
7 - Hardie
6 - Barclay
5 - Gray
4 - Swinson (Gray is a week behind everyone else, plus Japan aren't a huge pack)
3 - Nel
2 - McInally (Ford didn't train today, maybe a good opportunity to test McInally)
1 - Dickinson

16 - Brown
17 - Sutherland
18 - Low
19 - Gray
20 - Strauss
21 - Pyrgos
22 - Scott
23 - Hoyland

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Post by funnyExiledScot Tue 14 Jun 2016, 3:44 pm

George Carlin wrote:This stuff makes me laugh.

Scotland are criticised and ridiculed for playing a 'minnow' like Japan twice, despite the fact that it is an appropriate challenge and there are World Rugby ranking points to play for.

What exactly (apart from a drinking problem) are Wales going to get out of being stuffed three times by the All Blacks? Bugger all, is what.

To be fair to Wales they weren't actually stuffed in the 1st Test, and made a pretty good account of themselves. Obviously serious questions are now being asked about the depth of their squad but I'd be pretty pleased had Scotland gone toe to toe with the ABs in an away test in the manner that Wales went about their business.

That said, Gatland was silly to go for the Chiefs game midweek. Warburton et al needed to spend the week in an ice bath preparing for the 2nd Test, not going up against a highly motivated Chiefs team with nothing to lose and everything to gain. Of course the Chiefs threw the kitchen sink at Wales. Imagine if the ABs were to play Saracens in between test matches against England - you could bet your bottom dollar that Sarries would be "physical" with the ABs.

All in all I'm quite pleased that we have Japan this summer. I'd have been equally pleased had Cotter announced a summer break for Scotland. After all, majority of our players will need to save themselves for the Lions....

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Post by Hazel Sapling Tue 14 Jun 2016, 4:12 pm

GC, I think the scores will tell where Scotland are at. I am confident of victory (we are screwed). As for 3 pumpings by NZ, there is something to gain by putting players into that environment every so often for a series not a lone match. We get Aus next year in a tournament (probably with Italy, Samoa, Fiji and/or Georgia) and that is during a Lion's tour shorn of probably 3+ of the following players: Dickinson, Nel, Grayx2, Hardie, Maitland, Taylor, Dunbar, Bennett, Seymour, Hogg. We are going to end up blooding Toolis, Cummings, Kinghorn, Watson in Aus rather than having this year or 2018 to play one of the big 3 at near full strength.
 
Sterling work on all the threads btw.

RB, like the line up. I wonder if Strauss coming back to form a bit towards the end of the season pips Denton to 8.

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN Tue 14 Jun 2016, 4:51 pm

George Carlin wrote:This stuff makes me laugh.

Scotland are criticised and ridiculed for playing a 'minnow' like Japan twice, despite the fact that it is an appropriate challenge and there are World Rugby ranking points to play for.

What exactly (apart from a drinking problem) are Wales going to get out of being stuffed three times by the All Blacks? Bugger all, is what.

Well the main thing they're going to get is knowledge.

Knowledge on which Refs cheat and are ridiculously biased towards the AB's. It was a massively worthwhile exercise this morning - if the match thread is anything to go by anyway.

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Post by jimbopip Tue 14 Jun 2016, 8:10 pm

reallybored wrote:My guess for this weekend

15 - Hogg
14 - Seymour
13 - Taylor
12 - Horne (was in the squad ahead of Scott or Jones, more creative & left footed)
11 - Maitland (Vern's not a gambling man, winning 1st test is too important)
10 - Jackson (got to assume he's second choice to Russell right now, possibly Horne?)
9 - Laidlaw I think Cotter may well go with Henners and have Frodo on the bench covering 9&10. The only worry would be Jackson's kicking but Furra Linee and Hogg could share the duties.

8 - Denton (tough season with Bath and injuries but very much Cotter's 1st choice at 8) Again I think Batman and Bluto are both in better form and (a) Bluto carries better, scores tries and is more destructive both in attack and defence (b) the sons of Nippon will look to go wide with pace whenever possible so we probably will see "the fastest forward in the squad"
7 - Hardie
6 - Barclay
5 - Gray
4 - Swinson (Gray is a week behind everyone else, plus Japan aren't a huge pack)
3 - Nel
2 - McInally (Ford didn't train today, maybe a good opportunity to test McInally) It may be the Glaswegian in me but I think Brown slightly edges it, possibly because he gets more game time as a result of Toonie's adherence to this new-fangled "rotation and rest" concept.
1 - Dickinson

16 - Brown
17 - Sutherland
18 - Low
19 - Gray
20 - Strauss
21 - Pyrgos
22 - Scott
23 - Hoyland

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Post by RDW Tue 14 Jun 2016, 8:47 pm

I would bet my house on Laidlaw starting!

He's not going to put the captain on the bench.

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Post by George Carlin Wed 15 Jun 2016, 6:16 am

Denton has really not shown up well this season - I don't think that this is all his fault, Bath do not use him well in my opinion - and I would be very disappointed to see him start.

Ryan Wilson might be well suited to this faster game and he would be my bench choice at 20, with Strauss starting. Besides, when he offers to meet the Japanese team off the bus, they will surely misunderstand and believe they have a selfie opportunity with a grown man who has a Flock of Seagulls haircut.

6 Barclay 7 Hardie 8 Strauss. It's the future.
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Post by beshocked Wed 15 Jun 2016, 8:45 am

George Carlin wrote:This stuff makes me laugh.

Scotland are criticised and ridiculed for playing a 'minnow' like Japan twice, despite the fact that it is an appropriate challenge and there are World Rugby ranking points to play for.

What exactly (apart from a drinking problem) are Wales going to get out of being stuffed three times by the All Blacks? Bugger all, is what.

Who is ridiculing Scotland for playing Japan? Scotland have to play someone! England,Wales and SA are playing the big three SH sides.

Sure Scotland could have toured Argentina but it's important to build confidence with victories. Japan is easier than Argentina, especially with no Jones or Borthwick.

As you say - Wales won't gain much from this unless they pull off the mother of all upsets.

Please don't break Taylor or Maitland. OK

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Post by fa0019 Wed 15 Jun 2016, 9:01 am

Scotland doesn't have a right nor do any others to choose their summer opposition. Italy and France are touring Argentina this year. Their are 6 top European teams, and only really 4 SH ones... excluding Japan and the PI nations.

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Post by George Carlin Wed 15 Jun 2016, 9:29 am

Why would we play the Pumas?

Look at our recent history against them:

8 November 2014: Murrayfield, Edinburgh - 41 – 31 to Scotland

21 June 2014: Estadio Mario Alberto Kempes, Córdoba - 19 – 21 to Scotland

25 September 2011: Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington - 13 – 12 to the Cheatycheatycheats

19 June 2010: Estadio José María Minella, Mar del Plata - 9 – 13 to Scotland

12 June 2010: Estadio José Fierro, Tucumán - 16 – 24 to Scotland

Played 5, won 4.

Where's the challenge? Very Happy

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Post by RDW Wed 15 Jun 2016, 9:37 am

George Carlin wrote:Denton has really not shown up well this season - I don't think that this is all his fault, Bath do not use him well in my opinion - and I would be very disappointed to see him start.

Ryan Wilson might be well suited to this faster game and he would be my bench choice at 20, with Strauss starting. Besides, when he offers to meet the Japanese team off the bus, they will surely misunderstand and believe they have a selfie opportunity with a grown man who has a Flock of Seagulls haircut.

6 Barclay 7 Hardie 8 Strauss. It's the future.

Denton had a run of games towards the end of the season, coinciding with Bath actually turning up and playing some decent rugby.

I don't mind which of Strauss or Denton plays, as long as it's not Wilson.

I suspect he'll go for Denton.

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Post by fa0019 Wed 15 Jun 2016, 10:02 am

George Carlin wrote:Why would we play the Pumas?

Look at our recent history against them:

8 November 2014: Murrayfield, Edinburgh - 41 – 31 to Scotland

21 June 2014: Estadio Mario Alberto Kempes, Córdoba - 19 – 21 to Scotland

25 September 2011: Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington - 13 – 12 to the Cheatycheatycheats

19 June 2010: Estadio José María Minella, Mar del Plata - 9 – 13 to Scotland

12 June 2010: Estadio José Fierro, Tucumán - 16 – 24 to Scotland

Played 5, won 4.

Where's the challenge? Very Happy

Run

Those 3 in Argentina are all in early June. They always have shell sides as many of their players were still playing in France. Teams used to tear into Argentina away and think they were easy... then come their own first XV tours they'd get shocked.
Argentina are a very good side and to be truthful probably a notch above Scotland at the moment. I'd probably rank them above all bar England in the 6N right now.

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Post by Hazel Sapling Wed 15 Jun 2016, 10:46 am

Argentina are in the same tier as Scotland, France, Ireland and Wales (who are slightly ahead). I would not mind a 3 test series with Argentina to be honest as they tend to be close, well fought games (even though they were ridiculously offside in 2011 costing Scotland the game, Scotland really should have put that game to bed earlier on not that it still rankles or anything). The problem seems to be whenever Scotland get sent over there, there are games against Canada and USA first. A summer tour really should be 3 tests max and that limits what can be done due to the travel. It is not a short flight. Far rather they split that tour into 2 (Uruguay/Argentina; Canada/USA)

On another note if Scotland A are going to be used, why not blood youngsters by sending them to Uruguay and Brazil for games when Scotland are over there in 2018 (2017 Scotland will already lose a few players to Lions and sending youngsters to be blooded by the PI nations when they are in Aus may be harsh)? Is there enough depth?

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Post by fa0019 Wed 15 Jun 2016, 10:51 am

I think saying Scotland is on the same level as Argentina is a little optimistic. In the last 3 world cups they've managed to reach the SFs twice, the only time they failed was when they faced NZ in the QF.

They've taken scalps over first XV bok and AUS teams... not just such sides have underestimated the opposition and fielded fringe players battling terrible conditions.

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Post by RDW Wed 15 Jun 2016, 10:56 am

I think there's a clear top 4 just now - the big 3 and England, then from 5th - 9th there isn't a huge difference between the teams.  Scotland are at the bottom of that group currently but hopefully we're moving in the right direction - we'll see if we can go up the rankings. The likes of Ireland, Wales and Argentina might break into the top 4 but I don't see them being able to sustain it.

I also don't think we should downplay a 4 out of 5 win record against Argentina, regardless of what side they've put out for those games! In the game that mattered it is played 1 lost 1 but that was 5 years ago now.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Wed 15 Jun 2016, 10:58 am

Hmmm, based on what I saw at the World Cup I'd be fairly sheepish in predicting that Scotland would beat a full strength Argentina. I couldn't help but be impressed by the new style of rugby they've adopted, obviously driven by the exposure they've had since joining the Tri-Nations (or whatever it's called now....I sound like my Dad), and the backline moves and pace of play they implemented against Ireland at the World Cup suggests to me that they'd be slight favourites over a 3 match series against Scotland. I'd like to see it though.

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Post by fa0019 Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:04 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think there's a clear top 4 just now - the big 3 and England, then from 5th - 9th there isn't a huge difference between the teams.  Scotland are at the bottom of that group currently but hopefully we're moving in the right direction - we'll see if we can go up the rankings. The likes of Ireland, Wales and Argentina might break into the top 4 but I don't see them being able to sustain it.

I also don't think we should downplay a 4 out of 5 win record against Argentina, regardless of what side they've put out for those games! In the game that mattered it is played 1 lost 1 but that was 5 years ago now.

To be honest I reckon teams 2-7 are pretty much in the same boat and home advantage is often the decider (although not last weekend)

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Post by RDW Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:07 am

fa0019 wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:I think there's a clear top 4 just now - the big 3 and England, then from 5th - 9th there isn't a huge difference between the teams.  Scotland are at the bottom of that group currently but hopefully we're moving in the right direction - we'll see if we can go up the rankings. The likes of Ireland, Wales and Argentina might break into the top 4 but I don't see them being able to sustain it.

I also don't think we should downplay a 4 out of 5 win record against Argentina, regardless of what side they've put out for those games! In the game that mattered it is played 1 lost 1 but that was 5 years ago now.

To be honest I reckon teams 2-7 are pretty much in the same boat and home advantage is often the decider (although not last weekend)

I'd probably go with that too!

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Post by funnyExiledScot Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:10 am

fa0019 wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:I think there's a clear top 4 just now - the big 3 and England, then from 5th - 9th there isn't a huge difference between the teams.  Scotland are at the bottom of that group currently but hopefully we're moving in the right direction - we'll see if we can go up the rankings. The likes of Ireland, Wales and Argentina might break into the top 4 but I don't see them being able to sustain it.

I also don't think we should downplay a 4 out of 5 win record against Argentina, regardless of what side they've put out for those games! In the game that mattered it is played 1 lost 1 but that was 5 years ago now.

To be honest I reckon teams 2-7 are pretty much in the same boat and home advantage is often the decider (although not last weekend)


I'd agree with that. The ABs are out on their own at the moment. No-one is beating them (home or away) and their consistency is remarkable.

You can then lump a bunch of teams together. There's little to separate England, Ireland, Wales, South Africa, Australia and Argentina, and I'd put France and Scotland just a notch below that group, and then Japan and the Pacific Island teams below that.

My prediction is that England under Eddie Jones will emerge as the clear challengers to the AB crown, with the same level to success as all the rest who have tried over the last decade or so.

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Post by fa0019 Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:17 am

FES

I think you're about right. Its difficult to tell if NZ can maintain their dominance, I'd probably say they'll lose more matches now than their last RWC cycle. Their players are still top class but not the vintage of Smith, Nonu, Carter, McCaw etc.

Scotland can I believe take over Ireland, France & Wales in terms of ranking and 6N performances. They now have the players.

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Post by propdavid_london Wed 15 Jun 2016, 1:36 pm

Scotland need 2 solid wins to start climbing back up the IRB rankings.
You wouldn't want to put too much of an experimental side out against Japan..as they have proven, they do the basics very well and can deal with the more physical approach.

Are these tests on TV?

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Post by RDW Wed 15 Jun 2016, 1:41 pm

BBC 2 Scotland

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