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Wales team to face New Zealand

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Post by international198 Thu 21 Apr 2016, 10:18 am

15. Rhys Priestland/Liam Williams/Leigh Halfpenny/Hallam Amos/James Hook/Gavin Henson/Matthew Morgan/Rhys Patchell
14. Hallam Amos/George North/Liam Williams/Eli Walker/Steff Evans
13. Tyler Morgan/Jonathan Davies/James Hook/Gavin Henson/Steffan Hughes/Gareth Maule
12. Jamie Roberts/Scott Williams/James Hook/Gavin Henson/Steffan Hughes/Gareth Maule/Jack Dixon
11. Hallam Amos/George North/Liam Williams/Eli Walker/Steff Evans
10. Gareth Anscombe/Rhys Preistland/Dan Biggar/James Hook/Sam Davies/Gavin Henson/Matthew Morgan/Rhys Patchell
9. Rhys Webb/Aled Davies/Gareth Davies/Lloyd Williams/Martin Roberts
8. Taulupe Faletau/Joe Bearman/Morgan Allen/Dan Baker
7. Sam Warburton/James Davies/Ellis Jenkins/Thomas Young/Dan Lydiate/Taulupe Faletau
6. Dan Lydiate/Ross Moriarty/Sam Warburton/Olly Cracknell
5. Alun Wyn Jones/Jake Ball/Bradley Davies/Luke Charteris
4. Alun Wyn Jones/Jake Ball/Bradley Davies/Luke Charteris
3. Samson Lee/Eifion Lewis-Roberts/Tomas Francis/Aaron Jarvis/Dillon Lewis
2. Ken Owens/Scott Baldwin/Kristian Dacey/Elliot Dee
1. Rob Evans/Gethin Jenkins/Paul James


Last edited by international198 on Tue 10 May 2016, 10:09 am; edited 10 times in total

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Post by LondonTiger Thu 21 Apr 2016, 10:54 am

Hmm, interesting first post making me go "Huh?"

I think you are listing each position with the players in the order you want them selected. This does give an interesting lineup of course:

Priestland; Amos, Morgan, Roberts, Amos; Anscombe, Web; Faleatau, Warburton, Lydiate, AWJ, AWJ, Lee, Owens, Evans

Baldwin, Jenkins, Lewis-Roberts, Ball, Moriarty, Davies, Priestland, Williams (or North/JD2)


A few twins perhaps?

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Post by LondonTiger Thu 21 Apr 2016, 10:55 am

Oh and Lewis-Roberts and Hook do not warrant selection for the tour.

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Post by BamBam Thu 21 Apr 2016, 10:55 am

You might have a chance with that lineup Run

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Post by LondonTiger Thu 21 Apr 2016, 10:56 am

BamBam wrote:You might have a chance with that lineup Run

Will five full backs provide enough cover defence?

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 21 Apr 2016, 12:29 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Oh and Lewis-Roberts and Hook do not warrant selection for the tour.

I'm pretty sure they won't take Matthew Rees either.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Thu 21 Apr 2016, 12:38 pm

I'd be very keen to see James Davies have a shot on this tour.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 21 Apr 2016, 3:22 pm

Good god, thank heck this guy isn't picking the team!

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Post by SimonofSurrey Thu 21 Apr 2016, 4:02 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Good god, thank heck this guy isn't picking the team!

Indeed, Mikey. I wonder if his sign-in name here indiciates his preferred size of touring/playing squad? i wouldn't like to foot the travel costs from Wales to NZ and back for all that lot!

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Post by majesticimperialman Thu 21 Apr 2016, 4:40 pm

James Hook.? Really? did not think Hook was even on Gatlands mind.

Leigh Halfpenny? is he even playing for his club yet? If he is, then Wales would be daft to leave him out. (If he is back to full fitness) that is.

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Post by Cardiff Dave Thu 21 Apr 2016, 9:01 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
BamBam wrote:You might have a chance with that lineup Run

Will five full backs provide enough cover defence?

Good question.
Haven't seen the OPs New Zealand line up yet though, so hold your horses.
50 man scrums will be epic no doubt.

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Post by pheonix Fri 22 Apr 2016, 10:48 am

3-0 whitewash to the AB's guaranteed no matter what team Wales put out..

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 22 Apr 2016, 11:04 am

pheonix wrote:3-0 whitewash to the AB's guaranteed no matter what team Wales put out..

Whilst that's the likely outcome, I do think this is a great opportunity for Wales to test themselves against the best. I'm jealous from a Scotland perspective. Because of our recent performances and results, we no longer get opportunities for Test series against SH teams. It's a shame, because I'd love us to take a proper squad to one of the SH countries and play a proper three match series. I think we'd learn a lot from it.

Were I Warren Gatland I'd take the main core Welsh side, and make a few additions. I think James Davies deserves a couple of games at 7 to see whether he can make the step up, and, fitness provided, I'd like to see Scott Williams given a Test at 12, and (separately) Tyler Morgan given a shot at 13. The other player I think should be tested is Amos on the wing. Not necessarily all three games - the ABs can be a punishing side for new wingers - but he's due a chance and perhaps the Waikato game as well. Otherwise I think we'll see a largely unchanged Welsh side.

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri 22 Apr 2016, 11:20 am

Oh, an Englishman writes off Wales, there's something you don't see everyday Shocked.

FES I think Davies might be with team GB as I can't see him being considered for Wales, be a travesty as well seeing as he's fourth choice even with Tipuric out. Interesting calls on the midfield. Personally from what I've seen I think Davies (JD2) should revert back to playing 12 full time, and Scott Williams at 13. Going forward though I would select Roberts and Morgan as my starting midfield with either of the former on the bench. Apart from North the other form wingers are Amos and Hewitt; James too I guess but we seen his capabilities in the 6N and nothing has changed from a few years ago. I would pick Amos, but in the Waikato match he might get some game time at 15.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 22 Apr 2016, 11:38 am

With Tipuric out of the equation who are the other three opensides ahead of James Davies? I count one: Sam Warburton.

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri 22 Apr 2016, 11:50 am

Well others might not agree but I think Navidi and Cudd have been showing good form longer than Cubby, seeing as their pro careers have been longer than his... Never seen either of them have a bad game, but to be fair I've never seen Cubby have a bad game either. People in Wales seem to be getting overjoyed at flankers who can kick the ball, whilst not being as good in their primary role - hence why Warburton is first choice. Also I remember saying that I thought Cudd, after he had received some kind words from Gatland, was long overdue a call-up only for me to be told he was too small. Cubby is actually smaller than Cudd, yet these same people are calling for Cubby to be in the Wales team...

I also forgot about Moriarty who looks as if he can cover 6, 7 and 8. Him and Navidi are the type of flankers I would have in my team over Cubby, etc any day.

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Post by GunsGerms Fri 22 Apr 2016, 2:28 pm

I think Wales will win one test. You heard it here first.

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Post by majesticimperialman Fri 22 Apr 2016, 4:02 pm

GunsGerms wrote:I think Wales will win one test. You heard it here first.



Really? Headscratch

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 22 Apr 2016, 4:47 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:I think Wales will win one test. You heard it here first.



Really? Headscratch

It would be amazing if they did and there first such win in over 50 years, but I would not expect any of the four "home nations" to do anything other than lose 3-0 in NZ.

Mind Ireland came damn close to winning one of their tests down thre recently despite being well beaten in the other two.

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Post by RiscaGame Fri 22 Apr 2016, 7:21 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:I think Wales will win one test. You heard it here first.



Really? Headscratch

It's possible, if they catch them cold first test. Not probable, but you can't write it off completely.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Fri 22 Apr 2016, 8:49 pm

international198 wrote:15. Rhys Priestland/Liam Williams/Leigh Halfpenny/Hallam Amos/James Hook
14. Hallam Amos/George North/Liam Williams/Eli Walker
13. Tyler Morgan/Jonathan Davies/James Hook
12. Jamie Roberts/Scott Williams/James Hook
11. Hallam Amos/George North/Liam Williams/Eli Walker
10. Gareth Anscombe/Rhys Preistland/Dan Biggar/James Hook
9. Rhys Webb/Aled Davies/Gareth Davies/Lloyd Williams
8. Taulupe Faletau/Joe Bearman/Morgan Allen/Dan Baker
7. Sam Warburton/James Davies/Ellis Jenkins/Thomas Young/Dan Lydiate/Taulupe Faletau
6. Dan Lydiate/Ross Moriarty/Sam Warburton
5. Alun Wyn Jones/Jake Ball/Bradley Davies/Luke Charteris
4. Alun Wyn Jones/Jake Ball/Bradley Davies/Luke Charteris
3. Samson Lee/Eifion Lewis-Roberts/Tomas Francis
2. Ken Owens/Scott Baldwin/Matthew Rees
1. Rob Evans/Gethin Jenkins/Paul James

Those players highlighted are either not on Gatlands radar or just don't even warrant being anywhere near the squad. Bearman FFS really
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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 26 Apr 2016, 12:47 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Mind Ireland came damn close to winning one of their tests down thre recently despite being well beaten in the other two.

No, they came close to drawing, then NZ were saved by a Carter drop-goal. Ireland shipped 60 points in each of the other two tests, I sure hope we don't do that badly... Hard to look past 3-0 to NZ though when considering the form of their S15 teams.

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Post by Guest Wed 27 Apr 2016, 4:02 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Well others might not agree but I think Navidi and Cudd have been showing good form longer than Cubby

Sure about that? Form Pro12 player based on quantifiable statistics for a good portion of this season, and a stellar season last year as well: do you actually think the other two have played as well and as consistent for those two years, particularly this most recent season, to defy those statistics? If you genuinely do believe that- which is a really strange logical reach- what does how far back we go have to do with anything? Surely, the longer back we go to find good form, the less relevant it becomes? Is it a matter of experience? If so, that would be entirely different to the topic you're claiming it to be relevant to, which is form. I think you might be trying to conflate the two; if a player puts in three 6/10 performances in three different games, that is not akin to two 9/10 performances in two games. You can't aggregate decent form and equate it to very good form, merely because the the decent form has been putting it in for slightly longer. This is all irrelevant, of course, if you genuinely believe that Navidi and Cudd are, bewilderingly, playing equally as well (or better...!?) than James Davies has this season. However, such an assessment would be really strange. Concern over the longevity of someone's form is of course relevant to make sure they're not a flash in the pan, but he was like a duck to water in a Scarlets shirt from the off, and has been great for the last two seasons. That's long enough.

So yes, you're correct, I think almost everyone would not agree with you on that point. What good is the length of time someone has shown 'good' form, if it's inferior to the form of another?


mikey_dragon wrote:Never seen either of them have a bad game

Ah right, there we go then. Navidi put in plenty of ineffectual performances for the Blues for a number of years. Likewise, Cudd failed to make a dent in West Wales, hence having to leave to get game time.


mikey_dragon wrote: People in Wales seem to be getting overjoyed at flankers who can kick the ball, whilst not being as good in their primary role - hence why Warburton is first choice.

Strange statement. Warburton- not exactly well known for his footballing abilities- starts for Wales at openside flanker...because Welsh people demand a flanker who can kick?

James Davies was top of the leaderboard for turnovers in the pro12 this season, even when injured. Tipuric is also great at turning the ball over. As is Nic Cudd. As is Sam Warburton. I'm really struggling with the train of thought there. If you genuinely think Warburton isn't very good in and around the tackle area, that is foolish beyond belief. As a former flanker, I sometimes just watch him with a mix of astonishment and envy. He is genuinely brilliant. He is so ridiculously powerful over the ball, even when he doesn't get his hands on it, he still slows it down, and is head and shoulders above any Welsh player at ruck time. He tackles like a blindside and, whether legally or not, takes space that makes him a real nuisance to clear out. He can carry like an 8 when called upon (I'm sure you know the result of this charge http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/02/26/21/319813F800000578-0-image-m-11_1456521480422.jpg ), but most impressively, still turns over the ball. This is all done whilst being systematically marked out of the game at rucks by nearly every team he faces, particularly the Irish and English. You can sometimes even hear the opposition shouting his name as he approaches, to make sure there are three players clearing him out, not just two. It's partly why Gethin Jenkins has so much success when coming off the bench, as opposition teams don't pay nearly as much attention to marking Wales's other 'jackaling' defenders as they do to Warburton. It's true he doesn't make as many clean turnovers as 2011/2012, but that's in no small part to other sides marking him, and the breadth of his effectiveness at the breakdown increasing dramatically to compensate. He's not Richie McCaw, who stayed two steps ahead of the curve by reinventing himself every season or two, but then who else can match him?

I have no real idea what point you were making, perhaps it's just not very well articulated, but it seems to me that you're just spraying muck in a shotgun approach and hoping it sticks on all Welsh opensides just for the sake of it. Just to reiterate: at international level, Sam Warburton is markedly better at the defensive breakdown- not just winning turnover penalties, but the whole ruck process- than any other Welsh player, including Justin Tipuric.

Then again, if you think an openside flanker's primary role is to be the link between backs and forwards, then Justin Tipuric is out in front for that one, with James Davies close behind. And let's not compare Justin Tupric's performances against Michael Hooper and David Pocock with Josh Navidi winning a man of the match against Treviso.


mikey_dragon wrote:Also I remember saying that I thought Cudd, after he had received some kind words from Gatland, was long overdue a call-up only for me to be told he was too small. Cubby is actually smaller than Cudd, yet these same people are calling for Cubby to be in the Wales team

Would be good to base the argument on the facts at hand, and take the time to flesh out the rationale behind your opinion on selection, rather than try and bring it back round to what some people- who may or may not have replied to this thread- may have said on some other thread.


mikey_dragon wrote:Cubby is actually smaller than Cudd
Incidentally, you also know that to be factually rubbish. Incorrect. Wrong. Literally untrue. Not an opinion. Wrong.

I provided you with data that shows Cubby is taller, and marginally lighter (2kg). Weight obviously fluctuates, and Davies being younger and newer to the professional set up (as you alluded to above) is less likely to be at an 'optimum' weight than Cudd. However, you dismissed this, and stated that this marginal size difference apparently in Cudd's favour was all you needed to know, whilst the statistics on each players' height (which, at the ages they are, should not fluctuate) shouldn't be given any value because, well, who knows, really? They could be lying after all, so why believe the stats? #Conspiracy #FilterAndReinforcement

Incidentally, what does size matter, really? Cuthbert is massive, but his shoulders, in defence at least, seem to be made of straw. If you're tough enough, you're big enough, particularly at openside flanker, where being around or under 6ft can help turn the ball over. The benefits of including James Davies in a Welsh team far outweigh any negative that may come about from his lack of size (or strength, which is far more important), although there are other detractions that may enter the equation. Likewise, you weigh up what Cudd has in terms of strengths and weaknesses, and compare to the competition.

Taking one thing- "size- out of context is irrelevant. I'm not sure who suggested it, it was probably a passing comment in any case, but I'd really let it drop if I were you; not only is it a fairly meaningless thing in and of itself, not only is it irrelevant when you are discussing a subject with people who do not hold said view (whose benefit are you repeating yourself for?), but most importantly the claim you are making to counter it is literally not true.


mikey_dragon wrote:I also forgot about Moriarty who looks as if he can cover 6, 7 and 8. Him and Navidi are the type of flankers I would have in my team over Cubby, etc any day.

Team or squad? Can definitely see the benefit or the other two starting on the bench or being a last pick in the squad, but not in the starting team ahead of him at openside flanker.

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Post by Guest Wed 27 Apr 2016, 4:09 am

Anyway, having dealt with that, here's my opinion: whilst NZ would be pretty fertile for a player like James Davies, I can see why he wouldn't pick him for Wales. Not only will the injury be an important factor, but he is almost antithetical to the manner in which Warren Gatland will almost certainly ask his back rowers to play against the All Blacks, away from home, in New Zealand. What's the point in asking James Davies to carry one out passes, five yards from the breakdown, or to secure slow ruck ball behind the gainline when about to be hounded by Jamie Retallick and Kieran Read? If Tipuric struggles to string a run of games together for Wales, what chance does James Davies have? With everyone fit, why include him in the squad over a more versatile player (where I think we'd agree mikey)? He'd be far better being capped in the Autumn where Wales tend to be a bit looser.

Josh Navidi is hampered by the fact he's a jack of all trades and a master of none. Against the Scarlets, he was at 8, Warburton at 6, and Ellis Jenkins at 7. Where's Navidi's best position? Does anyone actually know? If it's openside, he's at least fourth, possibly fifth behind Cudd, in line for the shirt. With Ellis Jenkins creeping up and looking promising, you could make the case that he's even further back. He surely doesn't have the skill or stature to be a long term 8, although if Faletau decided to retire tomorrow, it's slim pickings for Wales there, so perhaps he stands a chance. 6 seems his best shot, and even then it comes with the caveat of 'versatile, utility backrower'. His cap should have come last season, when he finally seemed to settle into Pro12 level and started stringing some really good games together. My problem is, as good as he looks on paper as a stop gap for injury or rotation, he's just sort of...adequate at everything. He's the opposite of Lydiate, who is almost myopic in his ability. Lydiate can tackle. He loves tackling. He's not much good for anything else, but he really, really loves tackling. In theory, you would think he'd be exposed on the international stage, yet he is the perfect accompaniment to Faletau and Warburton, and fits in well with Gatland's tactics. I don't see Navidi slotting in nearly as effectively, despite (or perhaps because) of his versatility. I don't think he'd let Wales down, I think he's a good player, he just has no outstanding qualities or capabilities, which James Davies and Justin Tipuric, despite vying for a different position than Navidi, obviously do. Incidentally, Lydiate being out of the team resulted in him putting in his best performances for Wales in the '16 6N since the '12 6N. Let's hope the Ospreys get him carrying and improving even more.

I also love the suggestion of James Hook as most of the backline. Hook at outside half, feints and finds James Hook at 12, who double pumps to James Hook at 13 who finds the full back, James Hook, in space down the touchline, going for the corner, only to be hammered into touch by Ben Smith because he's slow and weak and not very effective any more. Do Welsh fans ever occasionally watch him for Gloucester? It's depressing how different he is to the player he was a decade ago. Stephen Jones got criticised for being slow, but dear me, he could run a backline; Hook is cumbersome beyond belief. He's evidently got the vision to still see things when other people may not see that they're on, but in a game which has become increasingly reliant in the last few years on outstanding, searing pace to make a linebreak, he has been utterly left behind. It's genuinely sad. I take no satisfaction in seeing his decline; despite his 80 odd caps (which is still a pretty great career), he could have been a Welsh great had some things not gone the way they did. But so be it.

I think Wales will put in one very good performance, one performance where they are sort of in it (a bit like 2014 Autumn), but not really, and one game where they are blown away. They will lose all three. I obviously hope they win all three games. My XV:

1. Rob Evans
2. Ken Owens/Scott Baldwin (I do think Ken is great off the bench, so perhaps Baldwin starts, but 50:50)
3. Samson Lee
4. Luke Charteris (if available?)
5. AWJ
6. Dan Lydiate (would really like to see Moriarty starting one game at 6)
7. Sam Warburton
8. Toby Faletau

9. Rhys Webb (key player for Wales. Gar Davies not in good form, Wales reliant on him for quick ball and direction)
10. Dan Biggar (has the unflappable mentality needed to play in NZ, although the less arm waving and huffing the better)

11. Hallam Amos (Big chance to show what he's got. Cuthbert will tour, so hope he does enough to not get dropped)
12. Scott Williams (Totally unrealistic due to injury, but Jamie Roberts is hampering the Welsh team's attacking capabilities. This is more what I envisage/hope for next season, as unlike in the backrow, I don't think a 12's steadiness, strength, and power should compensate for very limited footballing/handling ability, and rugby awareness. Roberts will obviously start, but I'd be happy to see him have a break from the Welsh team, if only to see if they miss him in defence- which may well happen, eventhough I think Scott Williams has more than adequate power and tackling ability, as well as his obvious pace and skill that puts Roberts to shame.)
13. Jon Davies
14. George North
15. Liam Williams (the man has been injured for the best part of two years, and is still able to play good rugby. Mentality is key: don't take out frustration at lack of game time/probable losing scoreline by doing something stupid and getting penalised. Equally, his bullish desire to win games matches Biggar's, something that could get a Welsh team so deficient in self belief over the line if they are in a winning position in the closing minutes.)

16. Scott Baldwin/Ken Owens (no outstanding 3rd candidate. Dee? Would be a good experience for him.)
17. Gethin Jenkins (Paul James) Almost goes without saying. Jenkins will almost certainly break down, but his breakdown (excuse the pun) prowess is necessary off the bench when he is fit to play.
18. Tomas Francis (AN Other?) Don't rate Jarvis. Don't rate (the injured) Rhodri at TH. Don't even rate Francis. Lewis-Roberts gets a surprise call up, and with it the Welsh squad's BMI increases significantly overnight?
19. Bradley Davies (Jake Ball) Brad starts if Charteris is out, and perhaps should be pushing AWJ even if he does. In great form. If Charteris is off the tour, Ball, who's had a good season and I'd like to see be given a go at some point, onto the bench, and Dom Day (who else?) comes in.
20. Justin Tipuric (Ross Moriarty)
21. Gareth Davies (Aled Davies? Lloyd Williams? Much of a muchness here.)
22. Rhys Priestland
23. Gareth Anscombe

I fail to see why you'd ever pick Cuthbert at #23. In 22 and 23 you have goal-kickers, and also versatility. Priestland is a good attacking foil to Biggar's control, and Anscombe is finally starting to find his feet, although I still think he looks better at 15. Will likely get some stick for being 'at home', but so be it.

Even if Halfpenny is fit, I'd really like to see what that backline could do. With Webb getting the ball out quickly, it's reliant on Biggar to play a bit flatter. In which case, Scott Williams can get Jon Davies playing rugby again, and North, Sanjay, and Amos could end up having a lot of fun with the ball. I don't see Gatland picking them all at the same time, particularly as Roberts is so favoured, but that's what I'd go for.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Wed 27 Apr 2016, 7:35 am


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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 27 Apr 2016, 10:22 am

mioaw we've been over all that and I'm sick of having to reply to boring, 1000 word essays, so I'll stick you on ignore and leave it at that. I suggest you do the same because you seem to always take offence at a different opinion - I guess everyone will be on ignore eventually then.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 27 Apr 2016, 10:28 am

mikey_dragon wrote:You seem to always take offence at a different opinion

No offence, Mikey, but that's slightly hypocritical.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 27 Apr 2016, 10:40 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:You seem to always take offence at a different opinion

No offence, Mikey, but that's slightly hypocritical.

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way but I can assure you I don't. Perhaps I should slightly alter my posting style to make this more clear Very Happy.

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Post by Guest Wed 27 Apr 2016, 12:09 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:mioaw we've been over all that and I'm sick of having to reply to boring, 1000 word essays, so I'll stick you on ignore and leave it at that. I suggest you do the same because you seem to always take offence at a different opinion - I guess everyone will be on ignore eventually then.

That's fine, I'm just a bit sick of reading your posts. You can't have it both ways, revelling in winding up other posters under the guise of rugby discussion, only to throw your toys out the pram when someone comes along and shuts you down.

Anyway, let's hope this is the end of it. Back to Wales in NZ.

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Post by munkian Wed 27 Apr 2016, 3:07 pm

Cudd has made the most turnovers in the Challenge cup and I bet he's not far off in the PRO 12 either, saying he left a team 2 seasons ago so he should be discounted is strange...
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 27 Apr 2016, 3:10 pm

For what it's worth, I don't see Cudd playing for Wales. I just don't think he's Gatland's kind of player.

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Post by munkian Wed 27 Apr 2016, 3:12 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:For what it's worth, I don't see Cudd playing for Wales. I just don't think he's Gatland's kind of player.

Oh I don't either, and I hope he doesn't from a Dragon's point of view, I was just disagreeing on the opinion of him.
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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 27 Apr 2016, 3:32 pm

Very strange that some idiot would say that, munkian, whoever that may be. LP I think you're wrong there. His tackling and turnover stats are high, and some of the best as has been pointed out. That's definitely Gatland's type of flanker. He won't be the most devostating ball carrier, but neither is Faletau and he makes a fair bit of ground.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 27 Apr 2016, 3:45 pm

The difference is that number 8 isn't a position where we're blessed with options, whereas openside is. However well Cudd plays, I don't see him getting in, even if his form merits it.

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Post by majesticimperialman Wed 27 Apr 2016, 9:22 pm

I cannot believe that people are calling for James Hook to be included in the team/squad.

Surely he is not even in Gatlands thoughts right now.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 27 Apr 2016, 9:26 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The difference is that number 8 isn't a position where we're blessed with options, whereas openside is. However well Cudd plays, I don't see him getting in, even if his form merits it.

With Tips out it should leave a spot open in the squad, unless they just plug the gap with Moriarty. If they select another 7/back row player on top of that who do you think it would be? I'm hoping for a genuine 7 and not somebody like James King...

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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 27 Apr 2016, 10:00 pm

Why King is in the squad at all amazes me.

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Post by Guest Thu 28 Apr 2016, 12:53 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Very strange that some idiot would say that

Oh dear. I've never stooped as low as name calling. Dear me.

It's slightly strange that- for someone who posts on these boards as frequently as you do- you've suddenly come across tired to talk about the topic at hand. Why?

Ultimately, of course, that's because you can't debate the facts. Your attempts to claim statistical evidence to support your argument were debunked. You made a claim about two players' abilities- Navidi and Tipuric- based on the former's performances in the Pro12, and the latter's in international rugby for Wales and the Lions, portraying them as somehow equally relevant competitions. Ridiculous. You've now had the reasons for your assessments of James Davies and Nic Cudd picked apart as being flimsy at best, and all you have in response is- to paraphrase The Dude- "well, you know, it's my opinion man!".

But here's the problem; it's all well and good presenting an opinion, but back it up, please. You never do. You just leave statements hanging in the wind with little to no justification, and when you're challenged on them (the very reason for this website, surely, so I have no idea why you get so angry when this happens) having presented the sort of justification as you have above (lies, damn lies, and ignorance of the statistics), you don't want to know. It's almost as if you have no interest in actually discussing things, but merely want your kneejerk, reactionary responses to things supported by fellow posters, or you want to get in a fight. It's really, really boring to see the same tired arguments played out with you and another poster, week in, week out.

There's also the problem that you love revelling in winding up other posters on these boards, and so of course you can't be let off that easily. You cannot have it both ways, shouting other posters down, but then crying foul play when the same happens to you, albeit it with facts rather than personal taunts. It's telling that I have no gripe with any other poster on this website, yet you appear to be getting into the most petty of arguments with posters of every nationality, almost weekly. The net effect of this is that the website declines dramatically; where have all the best posters from the old 606 and the early days of v2 gone, and why? I enjoy coming on here when I have a spare twenty or thirty minutes, picking a topic I think might be interesting- usually concerning Welsh rugby- and reading what other people have to say about it. I'm genuinely sick to death of reading the tripe that you produce, playing up for nobody's benefit but your own. You didn't take my suggestion of leaving the board alone for a couple of days, as you appear to invest too much into it on daily basis. So I'm not going to let this go because you're contributing to the falling standards of discussion on a website that has and still can be enjoyable and informative to visit. I'd hazard a guess and say that the vast majority of posters would agree with me on this.

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Post by Guest Thu 28 Apr 2016, 1:05 am

munkian wrote:Cudd has made the most turnovers in the Challenge cup and I bet he's not far off in the PRO 12 either, saying he left a team 2 seasons ago so he should be discounted is strange...

Not what I said at all. It was directed at the very specific claim that Cudd had been in form "longer" than Cubby, in which case this longevity needs to be placed in its correct context, which is that for a good portion of that time he wasn't good enough to play Celtic League rugby. That's definitely relevant to the point that was made.

Statistics alone can be useful, but equally they can be misleading. For example, how many teams have played the same number of matches in the Challenge Cup as the Dragons? It's different to a league competition, where a player in the best team- barring injury or being dropped- can play as many minutes as a player in the worst team. Cudd will have played more minutes than most of the players turning out in the competition, so it's not necessarily a brilliant gauge. Equally, what possession did the Dragons have in their games? The lower it is, the greater the opportunity to turn the ball over, understandably.

However, I wouldn't dismiss Cudd because of his work at the breakdown, where he's obviously very good at securing isolated ball. It's that the other players at 7 are far better at all the other aspects of the game. Tipuric and James Davies are vastly better footballers, and can add this element to the Welsh team that Warburton does not have. Cudd is some way behind the three, but even then, with Gatland's style of play, it's important to remember that Tipuric- a B&I Lion- has barely been given the opportunity to string a couple of games together, even with Warburton half fit. Tipuric and James Davies are not Gatland-type flankers, despite being very talented players. Cudd would be an even clunkier fit, because he does not have the redeeming footballing ability to compensate for the times when coming off second best in the tight, which the other two evidently do.

Ultimately, see it like this. What's the point in choosing the fourth-choice-by-some-margin openside, aged 27, when there is a better, more in form player two years younger than him, and a 22 year old former Wales u20's captain coming along nicely at the Blues as well? It's simply not a rational call for the coaches to make, where this tour will be in part a dry run for the possible Lions Tour the subsequent Summer, but also the first real step in the World Cup cycle, where Nic Cudd is highly unlikely to play, but Ellis Jenkins- should his development continue as promised- probably will.

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Post by Guest Thu 28 Apr 2016, 1:07 am

Anyway, just on the rugby, this topic has taken a diversion. It's not really relevant to discuss the merits of the 4th, possibly 5th choice, openside flanker for a tour to NZ this Summer, when there are obviously far more interesting positional and selection issues to talk about. I understand Dragons fans are excited by him because he's playing well, and has been a shining light in a difficult two seasons lacking in continuity, but Wales are blessed in the position, and he's unfortunate that the standard at 7 is so high. If only some of the gold dust of depth could be spread to other positions, like the wings and props.

Does no one else think Jamie Roberts is seriously hampering the Welsh team's attack?

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 28 Apr 2016, 9:14 am

Well I see my on topic post was complained about. And past 1am (again) there were 3 posts posted by a poster currently on my ignore list. That can only mean someone is losing sleep over a differing opinion again. Hilarious! laughing laughing laughing

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Post by Guest Thu 28 Apr 2016, 8:12 pm

miaow wrote:Ultimately, of course, you can't debate the facts [...]. It's really, really boring to see the same tired arguments played out with you and another poster, week in, week out.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 30 Apr 2016, 8:50 pm

I see Warburton got a shoulder injury today. Any one know how bad it was? was it just a stinger? or was it some thing worse?

Will he still be avalible for the summer tour? or will he be having the summer off?

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Post by RiscaGame Sun 01 May 2016, 1:54 am

Blinking heck madge. Have you just been taught how to ask questions today? Crazy amount (MATE).

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 01 May 2016, 9:33 am

RiscaGame.

Did you use to be Risca Rev. at one time?

How is that for a question? Whistle

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Post by RiscaGame Sun 01 May 2016, 11:13 am

Yes. What do I win? No I'm not a banned user returning either, or my old posts wouldn't show as guest.

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Post by Shifty Sun 01 May 2016, 3:51 pm

A knackered, injury ravaged Wales against a load of fresh New Zealand players DESPERATE to make their mark to be in the team leading up to the next World Cup. I think Wales will get hammered in the first one, give them a game in the second test, then get wrecked in the third game.
Wales have NEVER had a remotely successful tour of New Zealand, all have ended in total disaster. The game against England will result in more damage, and Gatland's power trip game against Waikato really isn't going to help.
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Post by exile jack Sun 01 May 2016, 11:42 pm

miaow wrote:Anyway, just on the rugby, this topic has taken a diversion. It's not really relevant to discuss the merits of the 4th, possibly 5th choice, openside flanker for a tour to NZ this Summer, when there are obviously far more interesting positional and selection issues to talk about. I understand Dragons fans are excited by him because he's playing well, and has been a shining light in a difficult two seasons lacking in continuity, but Wales are blessed in the position, and he's unfortunate that the standard at 7 is so high. If only some of the gold dust of depth could be spread to other positions, like the wings and props.

Does no one else think Jamie Roberts is seriously hampering the Welsh team's attack?

I don't think Jamie is hampering the Welsh team's attack.He is so important to the Welsh defensive gameplan that dropping him would be a serious mistake.It's the abject quality of the backs coaching that prevents him from playing to his full potential.The coaching fails consistently to create variety in running lines for both Welsh centres,but for me the debate is whether Scott W should be preferred to JD.I'd say possibly yes but with the current Welsh backs coaching no permutation is going to be delivering what we need.My view is that NZ,Aus and SA would be getting much,much more out of Jamie as an attacking force.

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Post by maestegmafia Mon 02 May 2016, 12:04 am

exile jack wrote:
miaow wrote:Anyway, just on the rugby, this topic has taken a diversion. It's not really relevant to discuss the merits of the 4th, possibly 5th choice, openside flanker for a tour to NZ this Summer, when there are obviously far more interesting positional and selection issues to talk about. I understand Dragons fans are excited by him because he's playing well, and has been a shining light in a difficult two seasons lacking in continuity, but Wales are blessed in the position, and he's unfortunate that the standard at 7 is so high. If only some of the gold dust of depth could be spread to other positions, like the wings and props.

Does no one else think Jamie Roberts is seriously hampering the Welsh team's attack?

I don't think Jamie is hampering the Welsh team's attack.He is so important to the Welsh defensive gameplan that dropping him would be a serious mistake.It's the abject quality of the backs coaching that prevents him from playing to his full potential.The coaching fails consistently to create variety in running lines for both Welsh centres,but for me the debate is whether Scott W should be preferred to JD.I'd say possibly yes but with the current Welsh backs coaching no permutation is going to be delivering what we need.My view is that NZ,Aus and SA would be getting much,much more out of Jamie as an attacking force.

Roberts plays the same way for his club as for his country. How can he be tied by a coach national level if he plays the same way all the time?

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Post by exile jack Mon 02 May 2016, 9:40 am

maestegmafia wrote:
exile jack wrote:
miaow wrote:Anyway, just on the rugby, this topic has taken a diversion. It's not really relevant to discuss the merits of the 4th, possibly 5th choice, openside flanker for a tour to NZ this Summer, when there are obviously far more interesting positional and selection issues to talk about. I understand Dragons fans are excited by him because he's playing well, and has been a shining light in a difficult two seasons lacking in continuity, but Wales are blessed in the position, and he's unfortunate that the standard at 7 is so high. If only some of the gold dust of depth could be spread to other positions, like the wings and props.

Does no one else think Jamie Roberts is seriously hampering the Welsh team's attack?

I don't think Jamie is hampering the Welsh team's attack.He is so important to the Welsh defensive gameplan that dropping him would be a serious mistake.It's the abject quality of the backs coaching that prevents him from playing to his full potential.The coaching fails consistently to create variety in running lines for both Welsh centres,but for me the debate is whether Scott W should be preferred to JD.I'd say possibly yes but with the current Welsh backs coaching no permutation is going to be delivering what we need.My view is that NZ,Aus and SA would be getting much,much more out of Jamie as an attacking force.

Roberts plays the same way for his club as for his country. How can he be tied by a coach national level if he plays the same way all the time?

Jamie did not play the same way all the time for Racing and doesn't play the same way all the time for Quins.The problem we have with the Wales backs is that there is no variation in the running lines so international class defences defend bish bash bosh play easily.That is a coaching problem.Jamie's play on the last two Lions tours showed he is far from a one trick pony but,unfortunately,our backplay coaching is just that.







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