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2023 (expanded) Rugby World Cup for South Africa

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Post by fa0019 Fri 22 Apr - 15:44

First topic message reminder :

doctor_grey wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
SecretFly wrote:JFK left a final directive just weeks before he was assassinated that impelled the CIA to stop at all cost South Africa having more than one hosting of a World Cup per 20 year period.

The CIA, feeling guilty about Oswald and all, are trying to keep to the promise.... for old time's sake.

That's the only connection I can find between JFK and this thread...from reading 700 autobiographical books by Kennedy's Women.
I have the same abridged version of JFK and his women, too.  I read the same thing.  Camelot (the JFK presidency) strictly prohibited SA from hosting more than one RWC.  Said  it would endanger world security.  I thought I read in the Snowdon leaks the CIA is keeping Zuma in charge because no one in his right mind would put a major competition in a country wohch woul elect him.  It is all a plot hatched over 40 years ago.

The final part makes more sense then him simply appealing to the electorate.
I always thought it was the Mafia who got him elected.  So the mafia was his electorate, no?  Just like FIFA.

standard policy of slandering your rivals as witches and getting lookalikes to feature in grainy video stings with prostitutes.

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Post by Rowanbi Mon 25 Apr - 13:30

Pistorious didn't have a leg to stand on.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 25 Apr - 13:34

Rowanbi wrote:Pistorious didn't have a leg to stand on.
laughing Yahoo

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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr - 13:36

fa0019 wrote:

The judge was an African lady of an impeccable reputation. The prosecution too were very keen to have a guilty verdict especially given they went after him over 2 years to secure a murder conviction from a previous Manslaughter type one originally cast. As for the defence, if they thought he was an alibi they would have used him but I imagine they probably saw him as more dangerous than being worth the while... i.e. he is found to be inconsistent/lying.

I don't see why his race has any factor in it. He was probably paid off

I don't want to go back over the Pistorious case!!! Wink  But fa......  the man was in the house - on the night - and I believe it was also offered as evidence that he was on the street when the police called - wide awake.  Now, in a court of law, the man should have made an appearance to give his account.  If he claimed he slept through it all, the loud voices, the shooting, the screams, the door being licked in - he should have given such evidence in court and have that story picked over for weaknesses.  Even lies can mean everything in a murder case.

Am I saying South Africa is still ruled by whites?  No - and not my point.  My point is that many, many blacks still have the perception that they are still less equal than their white countrymen - even with an allegedly black dominated government.  They believe corruption amongst their own is keeping the revolution from having any real positive effects on their lives.  It's the perception that is, ironically, the reality.  It's no point in us dictating 'ideals' to South African black people - many of them firmly believe the ideals ain't working for them.

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Post by PenfroPete Mon 25 Apr - 13:39

Won't be going to South Africa it seems

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/36130932

South Africa's sports minister has banned four of the country's sport federations from bidding for major international tournaments after they failed to create enough opportunities for black players.

Rugby, cricket, athletics and netball are the affected federations.

The South African Rugby Union had announced it would bid for the 2023 Rugby World Cup by the June deadline.




But minister Fikile Mbalula says the ban is in place for at least a year.

The South African government has long encouraged the country's main sport to create more opportunities for black players.

The country's five major sports federations agreed on various transformation targets with the government in 2014, but football was the only one to meet its target.

More to follow.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 25 Apr - 13:45

I wonder if this will bring about a complete sporting ban from the global sporting authorities?

Even Football could be banned.

This whole thing is totally counter productive if you ask me.

But having lived many years in Liberia I know exactly how African politics works....BADLY!!

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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr - 13:49

Correct, Geordie - darn tootin'! There'd be none of this messin' wif sport if the whites still ruled de Worlde!!! Wink

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Post by Rowanbi Mon 25 Apr - 13:52

PenfroPete wrote:Won't be going to South Africa it seems

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/36130932

South Africa's sports minister has banned four of the country's sport federations from bidding for major international tournaments after they failed to create enough opportunities for black players.

Rugby, cricket, athletics and netball are the affected federations.

The South African Rugby Union had announced it would bid for the 2023 Rugby World Cup by the June deadline.




Not a great development for the SA bid, but the celebrations on board are certainly premature. Like the strike actions we discussed earlier, with examples given in a number of countries (not just SA) immediately prior to staging a major tournament, this announcement is undoubtedly designed as a wake-up call to the affected sporting bodies, but it is highly unlikely the government would allow it to go so far as to jeapardize its prospects of staging an event it has hitherto lent its full support to hosting - for the obvious reasons. It's still over a year before the announcement is made, however, the bids need to be confirmed by June this year. So the issue must be resolved before then.


white players are better, bigger etc. All about the government wanting to punish the white peoples sport.

& you also don't think the cultural diversity of a predominantly non-white culture is a positive aspect of staging the tournament outside of northwest Europe & Australasia every once and a while, am I right?
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Post by PenfroPete Mon 25 Apr - 13:56

Rowanbi wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:Won't be going to South Africa it seems

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/36130932

South Africa's sports minister has banned four of the country's sport federations from bidding for major international tournaments after they failed to create enough opportunities for black players.

Rugby, cricket, athletics and netball are the affected federations.

The South African Rugby Union had announced it would bid for the 2023 Rugby World Cup by the June deadline.




Not a great development for the SA bid, but the celebrations on board are certainly premature. Like the strike actions we discussed earlier, with examples given in a number of countries (not just SA) immediately prior to staging a major tournament, this announcement is undoubtedly designed as a wake-up call to the affected sporting bodies, but it is highly unlikely the government would allow it to go so far as to jeapardize its prospects of staging an event it has hitherto lent its full support to hosting - for the obvious reasons. It's still over a year before the announcement is made, however, the bids need to be confirmed by June this year. So the issue must be resolved before then.


white players are better, bigger etc. All about the government wanting to punish the white peoples sport.

& you also don't think the cultural diversity of a predominantly non-white culture is a positive aspect of staging the tournament outside of northwest Europe & Australasia every once and a while, am I right?

I'm not celebrating, I just referenced the story OK
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr - 13:59

I don't believe that ethnicity should be taken into account in hosting world cups. You appear to be taking my comments well out of context though and insinuating I believe those quotes where that's the opposite.

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Post by Guest Mon 25 Apr - 14:10

Rowanbi wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:Won't be going to South Africa it seems

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/36130932

South Africa's sports minister has banned four of the country's sport federations from bidding for major international tournaments after they failed to create enough opportunities for black players.

Rugby, cricket, athletics and netball are the affected federations.

The South African Rugby Union had announced it would bid for the 2023 Rugby World Cup by the June deadline.




Not a great development for the SA bid, but the celebrations on board are certainly premature. Like the strike actions we discussed earlier, with examples given in a number of countries (not just SA) immediately prior to staging a major tournament, this announcement is undoubtedly designed as a wake-up call to the affected sporting bodies, but it is highly unlikely the government would allow it to go so far as to jeapardize its prospects of staging an event it has hitherto lent its full support to hosting - for the obvious reasons. It's still over a year before the announcement is made, however, the bids need to be confirmed by June this year. So the issue must be resolved before then.


white players are better, bigger etc. All about the government wanting to punish the white peoples sport.

& you also don't think the cultural diversity of a predominantly non-white culture is a positive aspect of staging the tournament outside of northwest Europe & Australasia every once and a while, am I right?

That's putting it mildly. It's hardly going to encourage World Rugby to select SA to host the competition, if they have concerns that the competition might be tarnished by the politics of the host nation. Not great marketing.

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Post by Cyril Mon 25 Apr - 14:34

That's that then.

SA needs to sort itself out and come back in (quite) a few years.

Perhaps Rowanbi should stand for a role in the new-look federation. Or maybe not.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr - 14:41

Maybe another Cecil should have a shot at the title. I hear it's lucrative.

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Post by beshocked Mon 25 Apr - 14:46

Fa0019 if you’re a white South African surely you would consider going to the UK or France, to get away from the racial problems that are happening in South Africa. Of course that won’t be the only reason to move but surely it could well factor in.

Getting out before things really kick off.

Also generally if you get one person moving to a club then sometimes you get friends/associates moving too.

Look at Montpellier - 12 South African players and Jake White. The South Africans at Saracens also have close links with each other.
The South African connections at these two clubs are strong.
Plus of course the people looking for new players would have likely been South Africans.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Mon 25 Apr - 14:49

Cyril wrote:That's that then.

SA needs to sort itself out and come back in (quite) a few years.

Perhaps Rowanbi should stand for a role in the new-look federation. Or maybe not.
Certainly not, Rowanbi had no problems with these forced racial quotas and if anything supported it.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr - 14:50

Maybe Dutch Rugby could become more serious about itself and reap the rewards?

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr - 15:19

ok so done the figures for those who think/suggest that SA rugby is still deeply racist. Here is a list of SA players in other leagues.

Aviva - 22 white, 1 coloured, 1 African (who is actually from Zimbabwe).
Top14 - 48 white, 7 coloured, 0 African.
Pro12 - 31 white, 1 coloured, 0 African.
Japan - 22 white, 5 coloured, 1 African.

So all in all Whites make up 123 of 139 SA foreign based players inc. chaps like Barritt, Stander etc.  I may have left a few out and took figures from wiki.

That's 88% white, 10% coloured, 1% African.

Now this isn't to say White players are superior. This is to state that whilst the Bulls, Sharks and Stormers have 35% non white players in their squads and the Lions and Cheetahs are about 20%... when we look at those who go abroad the figures plummet.
Lets just assume foreign teams/coaches are only interested in results and are not racist... why then do they ignore non white SA players outside of highly talented ones such as Habana, Pietersen and um Zane Kirchner Shocked???

Maybe some are saying that SA doesn't give them the opportunity but given 3/5 are giving 1/3 of squad places to non whites and generous game time... and SR is probably on average about 1/4 of all squad places going to non whites, why does those figures fall to 1/10 abroad?

I don't buy non white South Africans are less likely to leave home... if anything I would say given the opportunity they're more likely to want to experience things like foreign culture/travel which they previously didn't have access to.

I think given we're looking into over 100 players the findings are quite credible. Its not the lack of trying on South Africa's side.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr - 15:34

...hmmmm fa...............  

...to be blunt about it (and readily acknowledging the Nations that benefit from 'blow-in' virtual mercenaries) but how many black South African players do we think would so readily make themselves available for selection by another Nation, even if more of them came up to Europe?

The white South Africans seem to have been unsettled out of their sense-of-self more than the blacks.  Many of them seem to be looking for 'homelands' to adopt them, given how politics in their Nation has developed over the last few decades.

But we can't have it everyway.  Either rugby in South Africa has traditionally been a white man's sport and therefore it's natural even now to see more white South Africans playing it (even in Europe) or the distinction hasn't been so great between white and black numbers, which would call into question the lack of black players in the National squad.  It can't be both.

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr - 15:35

SecretFly wrote:...hmmmm fa...............  

...to be blunt about it (and readily acknowledging the Nations that benefit from 'blow-in' virtual mercenaries) but how many black South African players do we think would so readily make themselves available for selection by another Nation, even if more of them came up to Europe?

The white South Africans seem to have been unsettled out of their sense-of-self more than the blacks.  Many of them seem to be looking for 'homelands' to adopt them, given how politics in their Nation has developed over the last few decades.

But we can't have it everyway.  Either rugby in South Africa has traditionally been a white man's sport and therefore it's natural even now to see more white South Africans playing it (even in Europe) or the distinction hasn't been so great between white and black numbers, which would call into question the lack of black players in the National squad.  It can't be both.

Most of those white players are not available for foreign selection. Most are either capped boks or capped U20s (since 2012). Only a handful are now playing for foreign teams i.e. Stander, Barritt, Nel, Strauss etc.

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Post by beshocked Mon 25 Apr - 15:43

fa0019 do you not think white South Africans are better rugby players than Black south africans players in general?

I think Europeans will sign the best regardless of race hence why J P Pietersen and Habana are being signed up now.

Sure there might be some bias, like picking a player they are familiar with, e.g. White recruiting players he knows well but I don't think it's to do with race.

Clubs want good value and in general, Saracens' South Africans have added a lot of value - the likes of Joubert,Brits,Du Plessis,De Kock have been good signings. Even Rhodes this season has been a useful signing.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr - 15:45

fa0019 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:...hmmmm fa...............  

...to be blunt about it (and readily acknowledging the Nations that benefit from 'blow-in' virtual mercenaries) but how many black South African players do we think would so readily make themselves available for selection by another Nation, even if more of them came up to Europe?

The white South Africans seem to have been unsettled out of their sense-of-self more than the blacks.  Many of them seem to be looking for 'homelands' to adopt them, given how politics in their Nation has developed over the last few decades.

But we can't have it everyway.  Either rugby in South Africa has traditionally been a white man's sport and therefore it's natural even now to see more white South Africans playing it (even in Europe) or the distinction hasn't been so great between white and black numbers, which would call into question the lack of black players in the National squad.  It can't be both.

Most of those white players are not available for foreign selection. Most are either capped boks or capped U20s (since 2012). Only a handful are now playing for foreign teams i.e. Stander, Barritt, Nel, Strauss etc.

But they ARE white................. their ancestry is European. And that ancestry isn't so ancient that they don't even have folk memories left of the kind of lifestyle and 'values' they are attracted to.

Black players that have no links to the rest of the world, that are in their own land of their quite ancient ancestors.......... of course the lure to go to Europe would be less.

Without getting overly personal about it, quite a few of the South African players that came to Ulster for example.... they seemed to have found a place that they felt comfortable in...spiritually. I mean, their religious beliefs seems to have been soothed there. Is it a secret that much of Ulster's folk memory involves a Dutch king, the orange colour and a religion that White SA decendants of Dutch or English settlers would be comfortable with?

There is less cultural urge for black South Africans to come to Europe than white ones - given racial identity and cultural connectivity.

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr - 15:50

SecretFly wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:...hmmmm fa...............  

...to be blunt about it (and readily acknowledging the Nations that benefit from 'blow-in' virtual mercenaries) but how many black South African players do we think would so readily make themselves available for selection by another Nation, even if more of them came up to Europe?

The white South Africans seem to have been unsettled out of their sense-of-self more than the blacks.  Many of them seem to be looking for 'homelands' to adopt them, given how politics in their Nation has developed over the last few decades.

But we can't have it everyway.  Either rugby in South Africa has traditionally been a white man's sport and therefore it's natural even now to see more white South Africans playing it (even in Europe) or the distinction hasn't been so great between white and black numbers, which would call into question the lack of black players in the National squad.  It can't be both.

Most of those white players are not available for foreign selection. Most are either capped boks or capped U20s (since 2012). Only a handful are now playing for foreign teams i.e. Stander, Barritt, Nel, Strauss etc.

But they ARE white................. their ancestry is European.  And that ancestry isn't so ancient that they don't even have folk memories left of the kind of lifestyle and 'values' they are attracted to.

Black players that have no links to the rest of the world, that are in their own land of their quite ancient ancestors.......... of course the lure to go to Europe would be less.  

Without getting overly personal about it, quite a few of the South African players that came to Ulster for example.... they seemed to have found a place that they felt comfortable in...spiritually.  I mean, their religious beliefs seems to have been soothed there.  Is it a secret that much of Ulster's folk memory involves a Dutch king, the orange colour and a religion that White SA decendants of Dutch or English settlers would be comfortable with?

There is less cultural urge for black South Africans to come to Europe than white ones - given racial identity and cultural connectivity.

They go to Europe for the money. That's the primary reason. European teams want them because they are better than what they have. Maybe some English players say... " I'd like to go back to England, my grandparents are English and maybe I can play test rugby whereas I'm not good enough for the boks etc etc but I don't think Afrikaners feel any attachment to Europe as suggested.

Look at the best non white players... De Allende, Habana, Pietersen, Mapoe, Jantjies, Kirchner, Mujati... they all go and seek employment abroad. Why because the opportunity is there to make money. Those in demand go more often than not.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr - 16:01

They go for the money and [the white ones] find it easy to settle because of their ancestry.

I just don't see what point is being made here. The white players show up primarily because they are the only colour available firstly and they're the best colour at rugby too - secondly? Is that the point?


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Post by beshocked Mon 25 Apr - 16:06

fa0019 white South Africans don't just go for the money.

You think montpellier has so many South Africans because of that? No it's because White has brought them in.

Saracens have brought in South Africans because they are generally have good forwards, they are available all season and there is a South African connection at the club. Having these connections does have an impact. You don't think the Rupert family have connections?

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr - 16:16

SecretFly wrote:They go for the money and [the white ones] find it easy to settle because of their ancestry.

I just don't see what point is being made here.  The white players show up primarily because they are the only colour available firstly and they're the best colour at rugby too - secondly?  Is that the point?


The point of the exercise was to answer to those who said that a) SA rugby is racist and b) they must give more opportunities to non whites. From the evidence, they are giving much more opportunities than talent suggests and that foreign coaches are not interested in non white players in these squads bar the very best i.e. those who not only get bok colours but also shine.

If players were of equal skill wise coaches would offer similar numbers of contracts to each group no?

Yet what you're saying makes no sense... whites are not the only ethnic group available. As shown, non whites make up about 1/4 of all SR squads. So if we say a SR squad has about 40 members thats on average 10 non white players for each side or 60 individuals at any one time. Yet whilst many whites make the jump to earn a larger pension, non whites are not being offered the same contracts.

Maybe non white players are more reluctant to leave? Well they all speak English fluently as they need to as pro SR players (although some free state 130kg Afrikaner prop may admittedly buck the trend).

I would say all in all if non white players are offered contracts they would more likely take them as generally they come from much poorer backgrounds, the money made available would be stupid to turn down as it could help support themselves and their wider families... which for many South Africans is an important factor.
Do some whites feel they have been let down by the system and move... of course some will but these days few have the opportunity. Ancestral visas are rare and only valid for those with British ancestry... few Afrikaners have this.  Hendre Fourie of England fame was actually deported with his family when he contract expired for example.

The figures are so overwhelming and for those saying, oh Europeans going "home" to Europe... well those in Japan rugby is as thus. 22 whites, 5 coloureds, 1 African. Again way more dominant than SR figures.

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr - 16:19

beshocked wrote:fa0019 white South Africans don't just go for the money.

You think montpellier has so many South Africans because of that? No it's because White has brought them in.

Saracens have brought in South Africans because they are generally have good forwards, they are available all season and there is a South African connection at the club. Having these connections does have an impact.  You don't think the Rupert family have connections?

Take away Saracens and White then.... no more SA coaches you can think off?

ok there as 7 whites in Saracens and 12 whites in Montpellier. No non-white South Africans in either side.

Still 15 out of 17 (88%) in the AP without Sarries. 36 out of 43 (84%) in France without Montpellier.

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Post by Guest Mon 25 Apr - 16:25

SecretFly wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:...hmmmm fa...............  

...to be blunt about it (and readily acknowledging the Nations that benefit from 'blow-in' virtual mercenaries) but how many black South African players do we think would so readily make themselves available for selection by another Nation, even if more of them came up to Europe?

The white South Africans seem to have been unsettled out of their sense-of-self more than the blacks.  Many of them seem to be looking for 'homelands' to adopt them, given how politics in their Nation has developed over the last few decades.

But we can't have it everyway.  Either rugby in South Africa has traditionally been a white man's sport and therefore it's natural even now to see more white South Africans playing it (even in Europe) or the distinction hasn't been so great between white and black numbers, which would call into question the lack of black players in the National squad.  It can't be both.

Most of those white players are not available for foreign selection. Most are either capped boks or capped U20s (since 2012). Only a handful are now playing for foreign teams i.e. Stander, Barritt, Nel, Strauss etc.

But they ARE white................. their ancestry is European.  And that ancestry isn't so ancient that they don't even have folk memories left of the kind of lifestyle and 'values' they are attracted to.

Black players that have no links to the rest of the world, that are in their own land of their quite ancient ancestors.......... of course the lure to go to Europe would be less.  

Without getting overly personal about it, quite a few of the South African players that came to Ulster for example.... they seemed to have found a place that they felt comfortable in...spiritually.  I mean, their religious beliefs seems to have been soothed there.  Is it a secret that much of Ulster's folk memory involves a Dutch king, the orange colour and a religion that White SA decendants of Dutch or English settlers would be comfortable with?

There is less cultural urge for black South Africans to come to Europe than white ones - given racial identity and cultural connectivity.

Ulster folk don't look to the Dutch, and think "KING BILLY" Ale Ale Ale , Fly, and we would much less associate the South Africans with that period of history. It isn't our sense of history that the South Africans find appealing, or attracts us to them, but our faith, charm, wit and extremely good looks Cool


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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr - 16:31

It's me.  I know it's me, fa  I'm reading you, but again, I'm finding it hard to distinguish which side of the fence you are on, in the argument about 'quotas' that is.  

That last post by yours seems to be agreeing with my sentiments more than your other posts.  So I'm just confused and obviously misreading you in places.

For me, if SR squads are primarily black, with only 1/4 of each team in general being white, then for me, that kills the argument that white players are simply better (or considered better by European teams).  It would be like saying the fewer whites in basketball in America isn't proof that blacks tend to be more athletic and natural at the sport.

So if more whites are chosen by big European or Japanese clubs over their black countrymen then I can only believe other non-rugby factors Are influencing the selection.  

SR is a higher quality game than anything that takes place in Europe.  Maybe the white players are just better able to play the less skilled, more attritional brand of rugby?  Is a player who can pound, pound and pound holes or carry massively in a very impact driven game simply be a better player or just a player suited to a style less skilled than SR?


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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr - 16:32

Munch rubbish!  I'd play for Ivory Coast in a parsec!!!  It's the cultural links, innit. Cool

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Post by Rowanbi Mon 25 Apr - 16:37

SA needs to sort itself out and come back in (quite) a few years.

Before you crack open the bubbly, remember this . . .

South Africa, one of the favourites for the World Cup, will be prevented from taking part in the tournament if a court action this week succeeds. The Agency for New Agenda (ANA) party is taking the South African Rugby Union to court in Pretoria seeking an order that would force players and officials to surrender their passports, preventing them from flying to London on the grounds that the government’s policy on transformation has not been met with the Springboks’ squad, which was announced last Friday, being mainly white.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/aug/30/south-africa-barred-world-cup-court-action-agency-new-agenda-party-rugby-union

Standard practice, just like the strikes which have preceded major sporting events in SA, England, Greece and so on, and just like the political protests which preceded others in Spain, Russia, Brazil and so on. But none of them ever stopped the tournament going ahead in its intended destination. So I wouldn't be making any assumptions about the current situation in South Africa either. They've got some issues to resolve, and likely this is a well-timed move and nothing more.

Rowanbi had no problems with these forced racial quotas and if anything supported it

I suggested there might be good reasons for them. The jury's out on whether they are actually having any effect or not. But undoubtedly they are opposed by yourself and certain other posters here, judging by comments regarding the "violent nature of the non-white community, scapegoating of the white elite and foreign companies (which maintain a stranglehold on the economy in partnership with the ANC), and superiority of white players in the white man's game," and so on.
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Post by beshocked Mon 25 Apr - 16:38

fa0019 there should be more coloured rugby players in SA because there are more coloured people in SA.

why would European sides be interested in any player regardless of skin colour if they aren't good enough?

In England 3.5% of the population are Black. In SA, 80.2% are Black.....

We have also more high quality competition from other sports. South African football is a joke, English football is not.

South African rugby has been got to where it is primarily because of white South Africans, it's still predominantly a white man's sport whether you like it or not.

You say 1/4 of SR squads are black - that still means 75% are white.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr - 16:41

I'm now on Rowanbi's side...argumentatively.

....He'll be delighted to hear it ........... Whistle

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Post by Guest Mon 25 Apr - 16:41

SecretFly wrote:Munch rubbish!  I'd play for Ivory Coast in a parsec!!!  It's the cultural links, innit.

Very Happy  

I think the faith of a few Ulsters players, and the fact that there is still a strong sense of Church here (probably more the non-denominational type), appeals to the South Africans, but that's in addition to the culture. South Africans just seem to like the culture ... if not the weather.


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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr - 16:43

Munster and Leinster fooled 'their' SA boys when they arrived at Dublin airport by wearing bowlers.... the lads were originally going to join their lads in Ulster. Wink

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Post by Guest Mon 25 Apr - 16:45

SecretFly wrote:Munster and Leinster fooled 'their' SA boys when they arrived at Dublin airport by wearing bowlers....  the lads were originally going to join their lads in Ulster. Wink

And marched them all the way to Dublin, no doubt. Sneaky x!xx!!

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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr - 16:46

beshocked wrote:fa0019 there should be more coloured rugby players in SA because there are more coloured people in SA.

why would European sides be interested in any player regardless of skin colour if they aren't good enough?

In England 3.5% of the population are Black. In SA, 80.2% are Black.....

We have also more high quality competition from other sports. South African football is a joke, English football is not.

South African rugby has been got to where it is primarily because of white South Africans, it's still predominantly a white man's sport whether you like it or not.

You say 1/4 of SR squads are black - that still means 75% are white.

???? - I need a lie down............................ bad

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Post by beshocked Mon 25 Apr - 16:48

3/4 - 75%
1/4 - 25%

What's hard about that?

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr - 17:02

SecretFly wrote:It's me.  I know it's me, fa  I'm reading you, but again, I'm finding it hard to distinguish which side of the fence you are on, in the argument about 'quotas' that is.  

That last post by yours seems to be agreeing with my sentiments more than your other posts.  So I'm just confused and obviously misreading you in places.

For me, if SR squads are primarily black, with only 1/4 of each team in general being white, then for me, that kills the argument that white players are simply better (or considered better by European teams).  It would be like saying the fewer whites in basketball in America isn't proof that blacks tend to be more athletic and natural at the sport.

So if more whites are chosen by big European or Japanese clubs over their black countrymen then I can only believe other non-rugby factors Are influencing the selection.  

SR is a higher quality game than anything that takes place in Europe.  Maybe the white players are just better able to play the less skilled, more attritional brand of rugby?  Is a player who can pound, pound and pound holes or carry massively in a very impact driven game simply be a better player or just a player suited to a style less skilled than SR?

My point was others suggesting that the talent is there, its that white people are racist in SA and stopping non whites either by lack of squad places or opportunities within these squads.
If that is so (according to my own logic) it would suggest a sort of underground talent pool of under-utilised players no? From that you would perhaps suggest those non white players who were seen only as squad players would get more opportunities/game time/appreciation abroad? Second to that the proportional number of non whites in the game outside of SA would supercede those proportionally inside SA. However for both of those points its clearly the reverse.

In the end I think that SA does a lot to help potentially talented non white players make it. I mean SA is begging for a African rugby superstar, it really is (everyone is)... just to shut up the ANC.... yet these diamonds have yet to appear.

Take Ashwin Willemse for example. Not sure if you recall him. Talented winger in the mid 00s. Huge smile so very recogniseable. Anyhow he came from a terrible upbringing... as bad as any rugby player I know. He was heavy into gang culture and was close to being sucked in. Jake White actually saved his career, its not a boast of his but rather of Willemse. White was the U21 coach and thought he had huge potential, springbok potential but no one would give him a shot in the pros. He actually gave up but White refused to let him and literally begged and bartered him a slot with pro team. Only a few years later he was a world cup winner.

Take Chilliboy Ralepelle the hooker who has just come back from a drugs suspension. John Smit (world cup winning captain) actually paid his school fees and got him into his alma mater after seeing his potential.

These sorts of things happen all the time in SA.

All I'm trying to refute is

a) the theory that SA isn't doing enough.. I would argue they are.
and b) the problem lies elsewhere.

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr - 17:05

SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:fa0019 there should be more coloured rugby players in SA because there are more coloured people in SA.

why would European sides be interested in any player regardless of skin colour if they aren't good enough?

In England 3.5% of the population are Black. In SA, 80.2% are Black.....

We have also more high quality competition from other sports. South African football is a joke, English football is not.

South African rugby has been got to where it is primarily because of white South Africans, it's still predominantly a white man's sport whether you like it or not.

You say 1/4 of SR squads are black - that still means 75% are white.

???? -  I need a lie down............................ bad

Ok so if 1/4 of SR squads are non white but only 1/10 of SA foreign based players are..... what would that suggest?

Perhaps it suggests that SA is doing more than enough, offering contracts to guys who wouldn't normally get contracts and European/Japanese clubs aren't interested in them... only ones who improve their teams.

Unless all coaches in Europe/Japan are racist?

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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr - 17:12

Okay, okay...I'm back on track. I've read a number of lines again from different posters and I know where I went off on the wrong tangent. I glanced at posts when I should have taken more time.

Apologies folks. Wink


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Post by beshocked Mon 25 Apr - 17:13

Would suggest that the quality of the SR non white players isn't very high. How many would get into the South Africa squad on merit?

The ones good enough like JP Pietersen and Habana are in high demand in Europe, not surprising is it?

European/Japanese aren't interested because in general quite clearly they aren't good enough.

Not going to sign or play a player just because of their skin colour.... Wink

It's South Africa that uses quotas.

It's not as if there are loads of quality non white rugby players being ignored by European and Japanese clubs.

If they are good enough they'll be looked at. Look at the amount of pacific islanders for example.


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Post by PenfroPete Mon 25 Apr - 17:14

Ashwin's story - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxrvtKXt6lg
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr - 17:17

Rowanbi wrote:SA needs to sort itself out and come back in (quite) a few years.

Before you crack open the bubbly, remember this . . .

South Africa, one of the favourites for the World Cup, will be prevented from taking part in the tournament if a court action this week succeeds. The Agency for New Agenda (ANA) party is taking the South African Rugby Union to court in Pretoria seeking an order that would force players and officials to surrender their passports, preventing them from flying to London on the grounds that the government’s policy on transformation has not been met with the Springboks’ squad, which was announced last Friday, being mainly white.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/aug/30/south-africa-barred-world-cup-court-action-agency-new-agenda-party-rugby-union

Standard practice, just like the strikes which have preceded major sporting events in SA, England, Greece and so on, and just like the political protests which preceded others in Spain, Russia, Brazil and so on. But none of them ever stopped the tournament going ahead in its intended destination. So I wouldn't be making any assumptions about the current situation in South Africa either. They've got some issues to resolve, and likely this is a well-timed move and nothing more.

Rowanbi had no problems with these forced racial quotas and if anything supported it

I suggested there might be good reasons for them. The jury's out on whether they are actually having any effect or not. But undoubtedly they are opposed by yourself and certain other posters here, judging by comments regarding the "violent nature of the non-white community, scapegoating of the white elite and foreign companies (which maintain a stranglehold on the economy in partnership with the ANC), and superiority of white players in the white man's game," and so on.

You earlier took a quote of mine and misrepresented me, no acknowledgement.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr - 17:21

So the argument goes back to why black players aren't considered good enough.

A lack of history with the game and connection to it....not though their lack of interest in the game per-say or because they simply never wanted to play it as a whole. The truth is obviously that rugby has been traditionally an elitist sport (as it had been for a long time in many of the Nations that play it, not just in South Africa.

So what is the solution? After all, the talk in these parts in Europe has actually been using the words 'forced change' too in terms of teams being dropped from the Six Nations and other added...to improve the optics of a thing called equality?

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Post by aucklandlaurie Mon 25 Apr - 17:27

I agree fa, South African Rugby is doing all it can, their 7s team does have higher black numbers than the 15s teams.they are being victimised by the Government.

Where we go to with all of this:

World Rugby needs South Africa.
South African Rugby needs World Rugby.
For South Africa to now host a World Rugby tournament it would leave South African Rugby at the mercy of the South African Government, with a sports Ministry headed by Fikile Mbalula who is nothing short of a despot and capable of anything if things can be set up to fail.

Just because South Africa has some big stadia and nice weather is somewhat missing the point.

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Post by Rowanbi Mon 25 Apr - 21:31

Just because South Africa has some big stadia and nice weather is somewhat missing the point.



Wrong. Those are two very important criteria which will duly be taken into consideration, along with the fact South Africa has the second biggest rugby community in the world, the second most successful team, a rich heritage in the sport and the best attended club games.

Anyway, SA Rugby CEO Jurie Roux has already responded to the Sports Minister's saction, stating his organization were confident the suspension would be lifted at the next reporting of the EPG. I think you will find that this was nothing more than a kick in the pants at a crucial time; just like last year's threat to prevent the Sprinbgoks travelling to England. Cool
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr - 21:45

Weather ain't an issue and you've deliberately taken part of a full quote out of context.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr - 22:06

How much to rent South Africa for a few weeks? What's the rate, like?

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Post by Rowanbi Mon 25 Apr - 22:12

According to Strategic Sports Event Management guidelines:

The weather too is an important factor when selecting a venue

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Post by Knowsit17 Mon 25 Apr - 22:31

And it's stated nowhere in any guidelines that the weather in itself is a sufficiently strong factor to overrule the existence of a governmental structure rotted to the core with corruption and total political misguidance.

Vindicating black supremacy by handing it a WC would be a travesty of greatest imaginable proportions.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr - 22:32

Not going to hold your hands up and admit the misquote then? Very very low.

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