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2023 (expanded) Rugby World Cup for South Africa

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Post by fa0019 Fri 22 Apr 2016, 3:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

doctor_grey wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
SecretFly wrote:JFK left a final directive just weeks before he was assassinated that impelled the CIA to stop at all cost South Africa having more than one hosting of a World Cup per 20 year period.

The CIA, feeling guilty about Oswald and all, are trying to keep to the promise.... for old time's sake.

That's the only connection I can find between JFK and this thread...from reading 700 autobiographical books by Kennedy's Women.
I have the same abridged version of JFK and his women, too.  I read the same thing.  Camelot (the JFK presidency) strictly prohibited SA from hosting more than one RWC.  Said  it would endanger world security.  I thought I read in the Snowdon leaks the CIA is keeping Zuma in charge because no one in his right mind would put a major competition in a country wohch woul elect him.  It is all a plot hatched over 40 years ago.

The final part makes more sense then him simply appealing to the electorate.
I always thought it was the Mafia who got him elected.  So the mafia was his electorate, no?  Just like FIFA.

standard policy of slandering your rivals as witches and getting lookalikes to feature in grainy video stings with prostitutes.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 27 Apr 2016, 3:56 pm

OK It's kinda the nub okay.


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Post by Rowanbi Wed 27 Apr 2016, 4:37 pm

Because Cape Town is the world’s best city... again
“You really can’t overstate the case for visiting Cape Town,” says Pippa de Bruyn, a resident of the city and author of our expert guide. “First, there’s the in-your-face beauty of a craggy mountain range that drops precipitously into a glittering sea, its flanks carpeted in green. Then there’s the pristine white beaches lapped by – it must be said – a chilly Atlantic, their curves defined by giant granite boulders to bake on, and burbling mountain streams in dappled forests.” That's quite enough Pippa, you're making us jealous.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/africa/south-africa/articles/25-reasons-to-visit-South-Africa-right-now/?sf25163389=1
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Post by aucklandlaurie Wed 27 Apr 2016, 4:57 pm

Rowanbi wrote:Because Cape Town is the world’s best city... again
“You really can’t overstate the case for visiting Cape Town,” says Pippa de Bruyn, a resident of the city and author of our expert guide. “First, there’s the in-your-face beauty of a craggy mountain range that drops precipitously into a glittering sea, its flanks carpeted in green. Then there’s the pristine white beaches lapped by – it must be said – a chilly Atlantic, their curves defined by giant granite boulders to bake on, and burbling mountain streams in dappled forests.” That's quite enough Pippa, you're making us jealous.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/africa/south-africa/articles/25-reasons-to-visit-South-Africa-right-now/?sf25163389=1

Actually, talking of Cape Town, the question now is will the next HSBC sevens tournament go ahead there?

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Post by fa0019 Wed 27 Apr 2016, 5:21 pm

kingraf wrote:It ia always remarkable when people who laude the Boks of the 60s, 50s etc without ever bringing the probability (by law of averages if nothing else) that that wasn't the best possible side on the field bring up fairness and picking the best available squad. Or the phrase "fairness in sport" as if the first 80 years of South African rugby wasnt founded on a far darker evil.
You get guys like Jacques Kallis saying things like this make him sad to call himself South African. I wonder then if he's shame extends to the days he spent at Newlands (both) watching all white teams playing the sports he became very adept at? Probably not. Probably doesn't cross his mind. But this.  This is an outrage. This is a crime on humanity. Yawn. Anyway. Do carry on

I think the boks amateur record has to be taken with a pinch of salt. They were the best amateur team in history. Better than NZ.  However that was in part because they played a hell of a lot of home games. They were still an outstanding side, even away the hardly ever lost bar to NZ.

I think I'm reasonably qualified to answer however as I'm not South African and have neither Apartheid guilt nor resentment.

The PC answer is that all white people were racist. The actual answer is that in truth people just swam with the tide, especially persons such as Kallis who himself was only 19 when Apartheid ended. Hardly can be seen to hold share of the blame when he was a child for nearly all his experiences of it.. and from 1992 onwards the negotiation for its end was well under way.
There was no social media, no global news, internet etc. You live in an environment, a locked world and it is difficult to see right from wrong. Were all the people racist, all the people equally guilty. No, just like not all Germans in WWII were evil, even those who fought/supported the war.

I often speak about this with my in-laws who are in their 60s-70s as they grew up amongst it and my father in law had travelled to Europe as a young man so he knew of the world outside of SA. We must however view the world 30-60 years ago to get an actual interpretation of their actions/beliefs etc. He grew up on a farm, had coloured friends until he went to school... mainly because they were the only other children to play with. In part he was admittedly indoctrinated into supporting Apartheid from school onwards.
I recall him saying that the best day of his life was when SA won the world cup in 1995 but not because of the victory but because of Mandela wearing Pienaar's jersey. He told me how he simply broke into tears when he saw him wearing the jersey, like it was a priest absolving you of past sins and guilt. Even as a teenager with no connection with SA thinking "wow, what a moment in history".

Most people whichever country you live in vote towards the political party which either serves their people, their community or themselves the best. Do well, pay loads of tax and you're a rightwinger. Live on the margins and chances are you are a liberal and you look to the state to make your life a little easier. How many of us generally vote against our best interests to serve what's right for the country? Not the rule but a definitive trend.
Apartheid wasn't simply imposed on the people, it was a gradual introduction of policies and actually got through with the non-white vote amazingly after the 48 election. How many times do we here... "if only we knew what it would grow into, we never would have supported it etc"

Europe wasn't that much better than SA up until the 70s. Neither was the USA. Both had discrimination laws. The difference is that those were ended 20 years before SA had and in addition SA took what many Westerners held at the time (that whites were superior) to a different level. What was that sign famous in England during the 70s? "No Blacks, no Irish"? Not much different is it? Yes the UK had a war with the IRA in full swing but SA themselves were fight on many fronts against various groups.

My own policy is to simply not to have any misconceptions of a persons former stance; neither assume they were for, they were against, they were discriminated, they were not. Everyone was different, not all whites lived like Kings, not all non-whites lived in squalor, perhaps the majority in both cases did but its too easy an assumption to make.

This isn't a justification, more an observation. Afrikaners and especially those old enough say 45+ who would have been old enough to assert that it was clearly wrong aren't evil people, aren't even racist people... they're just people.

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Post by kingraf Wed 27 Apr 2016, 6:57 pm

People are inherently vile evil creatures with very few redeeming qualities. I don't believe in this idea of mass ignorance. Since the beginning of mankind human beings have raped pillaged and maimed and the last 80 years of concerted world peace attempts don't suddenly wipe off that gene (says a lot about humanity that a period which saw the Vietnam War, the Congo war, the Crimean war, The gulf war, The war in Iraq is arguably the most peaceful period in human history).

As for the actual ruling. Come on Fa. Lets be realistic here, how big a chance do you think this has of actually coming to fruition? Mbalula can't actually do this and this is tantamount to restraint of trade. Best bet is the ANC gets a few concessions and we all move on. At worst this goes to the constitutional court and the ANC gets another hiding. Even with the elections coming up I can't believe they've deemed this a risk worth taking
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Post by Welly Wed 27 Apr 2016, 10:45 pm

Rowanbi wrote:Because Cape Town is the world’s best city... again
“You really can’t overstate the case for visiting Cape Town,” says Pippa de Bruyn, a resident of the city and author of our expert guide. “First, there’s the in-your-face beauty of a craggy mountain range that drops precipitously into a glittering sea, its flanks carpeted in green. Then there’s the pristine white beaches lapped by – it must be said – a chilly Atlantic, their curves defined by giant granite boulders to bake on, and burbling mountain streams in dappled forests.” That's quite enough Pippa, you're making us jealous.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/africa/south-africa/articles/25-reasons-to-visit-South-Africa-right-now/?sf25163389=1

Been to Cape town on a rugby tour, was amazing.

Despite getting a proper physical awakening at a proper Afrikaans private school.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 27 Apr 2016, 11:06 pm

Look, I don't like lovely sun, and I don't like pristine beaches... I'm suspicious of the word 'pristine' - I think it's a bit shady.  
I don't like dry granite boulders for lying on and showing off my bronze six pack for passing bikinfied girls.  
I don't like majestic mountains for backdrops.... something pretty sleazy about them, if I'm honest.
Dappled forests are a joke - f**king Disneyland!  Who wants that plastic experience?

In short, Cape Town sounds like a kip.

Signed: Dick Spring.

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Post by The Great Aukster Wed 27 Apr 2016, 11:33 pm

With a name like Cape town - you'd expect a lot of cloak and dagger.

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Post by fa0019 Thu 28 Apr 2016, 9:59 am

kingraf wrote:People are inherently vile evil creatures with very few redeeming qualities. I don't believe in this idea of mass ignorance. Since the beginning of mankind human beings have raped pillaged and maimed and the last 80 years of concerted world peace attempts don't suddenly wipe off that gene (says a lot about humanity that a period which saw the Vietnam War, the Congo war, the Crimean war, The gulf war, The war in Iraq is arguably the most peaceful period in human history).

As for the actual ruling. Come on Fa. Lets be realistic here, how big a chance do you think this has of actually coming to fruition? Mbalula can't actually do this and this is tantamount to restraint of trade. Best bet is the ANC gets a few concessions and we all move on. At worst this goes to the constitutional court and the ANC gets another hiding. Even with the elections coming up I can't believe they've deemed this a risk worth taking

In terms of mass ignorance I think its more a case of people being unable to read the future with any degree of success. Its so difficult to tell both people's underline intentions but also how your decisions will impact with future events.
In 1948 the NP won under the Apartheid strategy in part due to the cape coloured Afrikaans speaking vote, well those on the electoral register. In 1953 they were thrown off the roll by the NP. Had they known in 1948 what would happen in 5 years time would they have voted for the NP... of course not. Its not placing blame upon the cape coloured community but just an example to show how clouded such events were in this specific case.

The Afrikaans community saw benefits to the strategy in terms of their own personal conditions, given that it was no surprise that they increased their stronghold on the country thereafter.

I certainly warm to people more who say... "look, I was wrong, there were reasons which led me and my people up the wrong path but yes in truth I supported the NP for many years"... more than the army of thousands now who claim...."oh I was always against Apartheid". In my opinion these are the same people who still call their gardeners "boy" or a childish pet name.  Still talk about them like they're not in the room. I'm sure you see the above types often yourself.

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Post by emack2 Sat 30 Apr 2016, 12:00 am

Firstly I would dispute that it is the turn of a SH side to host a RWC,Japan is on the Pacific
rim.They contest the Pacific Championship so I would rate them a SH side,secondly what
is the main function of the RWC.
The answer is or should be to spread and improve the game for the tier 2/3 sides of course
the other answer is money.
South Africa certainly deserves the right the same as any other to host the same,Sport
should be above Politics but so often is used as a propaganda tool.
Teams should be picked on merit not for political,racial,or religious purposes the game of
Rugby Union.Was encouraged in Touring days by teams visiting Australia and British
Columbia etc.
The Criteria to host a RWC should be Logistics ,Stadia,Catering,ease of travel and of
course security.Argentina,Canada,USA,Italy,all have a good case going for them.
As to talking about Colonialism,well the history of the world is one of Empire building
since the time began of ALL races/colours/religons etc.
The Current SA Government has imposed quotas of the number of Black among the
Non-white Rugby sides.Players are voting with there feet be playing in Europe/Japan
since they can still be picked for the Boks.
IT is hard to argue that despite 1995 being the Rainbow Nation there was only one
Non-white player in the Squad,.
In 2003 and 2007 it wasn't much better and even 2011 there weren't that many Non
whites included. So there definitely was a debatable point of view.
Sanzar `s being forced by SA the big money player to accept 6 SA sides in Super
Rugby when at best only 3 were in contention most years,but the Super 18 has
hardly been the disaster some predicted.
SA the BEST Amateur side is really stretching a point only for the period 1937-49
was that true.
What a full strength NZ side in 1928 and 1949 is the land of if`s and buts,Nepia
Mill,Paewai,Cooke would almost certainly have tipped the balance in 1928.
In most peoples mind the 1995 NZ side was the best in the world,a 4-1 win
3 out of 4 in SA in 1996 [3 in SA proved the point.
On Matches lost NZ were THE most successful side in both 20th[all be it by one match]
and 21`st century.
As one who respects the Boks as much as the All Blacks haven't the slightest doubt
they can rule world Rugby again especially at home.

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Post by Rowanbi Sun 01 May 2016, 7:57 pm

Firstly I would dispute that it is the turn of a SH side to host a RWC,Japan is on the Pacific Rim

Get an atlas, dude. Canada plays in the Americas Rugby Championship with four South American teams. Does that make them Southern Hemisphere as well. I'm sure the Eskimoes would be interested to know that! I think your idea of the Southern Hemisphere is actually everywhere but Europe. How very conventient... Rolling Eyes

Sport should be above Politics but so often is used as a propaganda tool.

Now you've stated the obvious, I wonder whose politics you will proceed to bring into it ...  Rolling Eyes

Teams should be picked on merit not for political,racial,or religious purposes

Surprise, surprise  Shocked That's why the quotas are needed, I think. Well done.

The Criteria to host a RWC should be Logistics ,Stadia,Catering,ease of travel and of course security.

Stadia and ease of travel, like New Zealand, you mean?  Shocked Catering??? Wait a minute; is this going to be about Suzie again  Erm

Argentina,Canada,USA,Italy,all have a good case going for them.

Except three of those four countries aren't currently bidding . . .   Doh

The Current SA Government has imposed quotas of the number of Black among the
Non-white Rugby sides.Players are voting with there feet be playing in Europe/Japan
since they can still be picked for the Boks.


So the reason they're all going to Europe is to get away from the black players? Nothing to do with the money at all then?  chin

Sanzar `s being forced by SA the big money player to accept 6 SA sides in Super
Rugby when at best only 3 were in contention most years,but the Super 18 has
hardly been the disaster some predicted.


Looks like you've accidently wandered off to another thread topic with this one.  Headscratch


What a full strength NZ side in 1928 and 1949 is the land of if`s and buts,Nepia
Mill,Paewai,Cooke would almost certainly have tipped the balance in 1928.


The irrelevent topics tour continues,  Erm but I can tell you that Cookie boy wasn't Maori. He withdrew for personal reasons. Paewai's only claim to fame was being the youngest All Black ever (just turned 17). He wasn't that good and never made the test XV. 1928 the ABs were lucky to draw, and they were whitewashed in 49 because they couldn't kick goals.

In most peoples mind the 1995 NZ side was the best in the world

The one that lost the World Cup final, you mean?  Rolling Eyes Oh, that's right - Suzie did it ....

On Matches lost NZ were THE most successful side in both 20th[all be it by one match] and 21`st century.

21st century isn't quite over yet. South Africa dominated the amateur era and were the most successful team of that period. They were actually unbeaten in a series for over half a century and the All Blacks never won a series there; though the Boks won a series in NZ fairly decisively in 37. SA also have 5 grandslams under the belt before the Kiwis managed one. So no arguments who was the best back then, and for all you know the tables could turn again before the end of this century, or maybe a new team like Argentina or the US will take over completely ...  devil

As one who respects the Boks as much as the All Blacks haven't the slightest doubt
they can rule world Rugby again especially at home.


Yes, we can see how you are simply oozing with respect for them Rolling Eyes
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Post by yappysnap Sun 01 May 2016, 9:07 pm

Best first topic mess sage reminder ever OK

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Post by emack2 Sun 01 May 2016, 10:52 pm

Rowanbi you talk about condescension then treat my comments as such.
Go through these pages and read ALL my comments on SA v NZ other
SA residents will tell you about my comments.
Bert Cooke was NOT a Maori and was selected the personal reason
was allegedly he wasn't paid[it has been alleged he only played
for cash]Source "The World of Rugby-Wallace Reyburn"
The Catering comment was just about it in general NOT "SUZIE"
1949?experts reckon with the right Coach instead of a "jobsworth"
team picked on merit NOT Colour at best it would have been a 2-2 drawn
series.
"SUSIE" or not in 1995 the AB`s were disrupted with a stomach bug of
some sort.Were throwing up running onto the field[seen with my own eyes].
Played at about 80 % normal and were still in it to the last minute of extra time.
Not lost a series for 50 years maybe BUT 1921,1928,1955 were drawn 1956 lost
1958,1964 series to France.
Period 1992-7 SA won at most 2 matches and drew one versus NZ ,also lost to
France and Australia.
NZ have NEVER won a classic Grand Slam in Europe[all 5 sides]and I have written
that many times.[They had two unbeaten sides].
SA had I think 3 Classic Grand Slams at best,it wasn't always THE best side won a
Series.1965 losing side was rated by Colin Meads than the 1970 side[also Lions 1966 rather
than 1971].
Pre 1960 NZ sides were picked NOT because of Apartheid which didn't then exist but on
the "when in Rome do as the Romans do "
In 1970 it was a case of Not too many and NOT too Black[Bryan Williams,Syd Going,Buff
Milner]
SA may well have been the best side in the World SOME of the time,BUT mid Fifties[55-8]
Sixties[64-5] and definitely not the 1970`s when NZ was weak too and NH strong briefly.
SO I would say the point is definitely Debatable.
Neutral Refs would almost certainly have made a difference to ALL sides touring in SA
NZ were offered Neutral Refs in 1976 but declined to be PC correct THAT series would
have been drawn but for the Ref.[he admitted as much too !!]

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Post by Rowanbi Sun 01 May 2016, 11:20 pm

949?experts reckon with the right Coach instead of a "jobsworth"
team picked on merit NOT Colour at best it would have been a 2-2 drawn
series.


Sure, the coach should have been Cavanagh, but barefoot goal-kicker Bob Scott had a horror show with his goal-kicking, and that was why they got whitewashed. They also lost to Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) on that tour, btw; a match the hosts have since claimed as an official test retroactively.

"SUSIE" or not in 1995 the AB`s were disrupted with a stomach bug of
some sort.Were throwing up running onto the field[seen with my own eyes].
Played at about 80 % normal and were still in it to the last minute of extra time.


Pathetic excuses, as usual, from the world's most insecure, self-absorbed little nation. You never beat the All Blacks, you just score more points than them.

Pre 1960 NZ sides were picked NOT because of Apartheid which didn't then exist but on the "when in Rome do as the Romans do "

Shame on them. They were as bad as the South Africans, and indeed racism was rife in New Zealand at that time. Maori language was still banned in schools, you know. There was a cultural genocide in progress, led by state media.

Neutral Refs would almost certainly have made a difference to ALL sides touring in SA

They would have made a difference everywhere
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Post by fa0019 Tue 03 May 2016, 9:22 am

I don't think anyone can lay claim to having neutral refs back in the day. I recall some documentary on a 1950s tour of NZ by the boks or something when the kiwi front row literally punched the living daylights out of his bokke counterparts without reply and how it turned the series... and nothing was done regardless of the bok protests.
Sure SA had biased refs but their form outside of SA wasn't that much different from that at home taking into consideration the obvious advantages.

Can't blame food poisoning in 95 on anyone bar the NZ management.

Was it unfortunate? Sure
Was it deliberate? No evidence at all. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

However the way NZ dealt with it was what cost them the match. So guys were throwing up on the pitch. There were fit and healthy players in the squad so why didn't they pick them over those who were ill? Player power and weak management.
Eric Rush is on record is saying he wasn't ill, that he never ate at the infamous dinner. Jeff Wilson famously did and was ill. So why didn't the management replace him with Rush who was a superb player in his own right??? And there were more of them. About 7-8 players didn't ate that day of the 25 man squad, all were fine... and from memory none were starters so why did Mains not make a single change?

Player power and poor management. So its the world cup final? So what, if you can't make the big calls then you shouldn't be in the job in the first place. A Jeff Wilson at 80% doesn't touch an Eric Rush at 100%.
Its not hindsight.... its not pro era thinking, its basic common sense.

That side wasn't special anyhow, it wasn't worthy of a world cup. Without Jonah they were half the side they were. Bunce and Little got loads of credit for their Indian Summer careers... well its a little easier playing off a front foot of Lomu then not. Wilson too has a huge reputation... yet you could put Richard Loe on the opposite wing to Lomu and he'd make serious gains due to the massive holes Lomu had punched through the defence the phase before.
The year before they were beaten 0-2 to France at home, who themselves were only a good side, not a brilliant side. Lomu papered over a lot of cracks in that team.

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Post by Rowanbi Tue 03 May 2016, 11:31 am

I recall some documentary on a 1950s tour of NZ by the boks or something when the kiwi front row literally punched the living daylights out of his bokke counterparts without reply and how it turned the series... and nothing was done regardless of the bok protests.

National heavyweight boxing champ Kevin Skinner was brought in expressly for the purpose. The Kiwis still like to boast about this. There was a book written a few decades back about all the All Blacks hard men and how they'd broken troublesome opponents' jaws and noses, etc, to teach them a lesson. Many of the stories related to tours of South Africa during the amateur era. But ask them what they think about Geldenhuys' king hit on Dalton, for example, and suddenly they're talking about cheap shots, thuggery and dirty Saffas! The same with the French. When Steve McDowell breaks an opponent's nose in the front row, that's heroic (and he isn't even sent off), but when the French roughed the Kiwis up and put them off their game in the 2007 RWC quarters, suddenly they're whinging about 'Dirty Harrys." & for the life of me I've never been able to understand why Buck Shelford wasn't red carded for his king hit (cheap shot) on Huw Richards - who was himself send off for basically ruffling up Gary Whetton's hair . . . Erm

Can't blame food poisoning in 95 on anyone bar the NZ management.

If the Kiwis were as manly as they like to think, they would have put this behind them long ago. Jonah Lomu personally attributed the result to the Boks' outstanding defence that day. They stopped him in his tracks and the All Blacks had no plan B. That's why the Springboks won.



& remember, the All Blacks themselves were basically pros competing in an amateur competition at the first 3 World Cups. They weren't the only ones, but it was certainly far from a level playing field.
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Post by fa0019 Tue 03 May 2016, 11:39 am

Food poisoning had its impact. I don't doubt that.

But the kiwi management lost that final not the poisoning itself. This rubbish about wanting a postponement... never happened in any other sport and would never happen regardless.

Management not having the balls to take on the players and make the big calls cost them the title in all probability.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 03 May 2016, 12:18 pm

Is this still going on???

Okay, South Africa.................. you've worn us down. We're bored now. Yis can have the damn thing with our blessing

..... Anything to kill off this Thread!!!! Wink

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Post by Rowanbi Tue 03 May 2016, 10:26 pm

Just don't open the thread, dude. Doh

I particularly enjoyed this last phase of our discussion, perhaps because I'm a bit of a history buff. Where's emack gone? He was funny Smile
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Tue 03 May 2016, 11:22 pm

SA fans vey angry at Fikile Mbalula. Good to see sense amongst SA fans, to hell with theses quotas.

http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/37578-South-Africa-Banned-from-hosting-International-Sporting-Events-by-Minister

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Post by Rowanbi Tue 03 May 2016, 11:46 pm

That's a link to a chat board. I thought you were talking about real people. Rolling Eyes
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Tue 03 May 2016, 11:48 pm

Rowanbi wrote:That's a link to a chat board. I thought you were talking about real people. Rolling Eyes
I didn't realise it's robots that are talking to each other on these rugby forums. Btw Nepal has been punished in cricket by the ICC because their government has interfered with the team. Hopefully we'll see SA punished.

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 04 May 2016, 7:59 am

The Nepalese trying to redress racial inequality owing to several decades of Apartheid, are they?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 May 2016, 8:11 am

How good are the Hong Kong team anyway?

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 04 May 2016, 10:36 am

Currently ranked 25th behind Belgium & Germany. Any reason for asking that on a thread about South Africa hosting an (expanded) World Cup in 2023?

Meanwhile, what non-white South Africans are up against:

Cape Town - A Noordhoek resident’s racist Facebook post, in which he went off on Sports and Recreation Minister Fikile Mbalula’s “ban” on three sporting codes hosting international tournaments, has landed him in hot water.

Matthew Theunissen’s early morning post on Facebook was screengrabbed and quickly went viral on Twitter, where it was shared, and propelled #MattTheunissen to the number one position among the social network’s trending topics.

Theunissen posted on Facebook: “So no more sporting events for South Africa… I’ve never been more proud than to say our government are a bunch of K*****S…yes, I said it so go and f**k yourselves you black f**king c**ts.” (Ed’s note: IOL has inserted the stars)

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/western-cape/matttheunissen-sparks-outcry-with-racist-facebook-post-2016542

& those Suzie stories just won't go away. Madiba's ex-bodyguard decides he wants a little publicity - 21 years after the fact Erm

A former top South African police commander involved with All Blacks security at the 1995 Rugby World Cup says the team was deliberately poisoned before the final against the Springboks.

Rory Steyn - chief bodyguard to President Nelson Mandela - believes betting syndicates were behind the poisoning. The All Blacks lost the Johannesburg final 15-12.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11632939
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Post by fa0019 Wed 04 May 2016, 10:49 am

It happens every time the government get heat on their shady involvement on transformation of business, sport etc.... they scour the internet for some white person who makes a racist comment concerning the matter and it shifts the focus from a media perspective.
Whilst we should be looking into the devastating impacts of state fueled social engineering of sport instead we're given a single example of white racism.

Kind of smart and completely deflates the issue. I bet half the time its a put up job but no doubt there still are 1-2 idiots out there, probably the same guy time and time again.

The bodyguard issue is nothing new. It happened, players were sick but there is no evidence of poisoning with intent. Lets be frank, the ANC governing body couldn't organise a p*** up in a brewery, even if they had tried they would have failed miserably.
Its happened a number of times in different sports and events. Yet again... the emphasis should not be on the food poisoning saga but the coaching staffs reaction to it. They should have made changes. They didn't. They had 7-8 players not affected, fit and raring to go. They weren't used.

So they didn't want to rob their starting XV of chances to play... not an excuse. Coaches aren't their to massage ego's. They are there to win games. Its not hindsight. Its b.loody common sense.

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 04 May 2016, 11:01 am

Even Keith Quinn, one of the most biased Kiwis you'll ever meet,& who was closer to the All Blacks team than just about anyone not directly involved in the squad at the time, had the good grace to concede the story was a hoax, and pretty much a lame excuse by a nation which has never been able to face up to defeat on the rugby paddock
http://keithquinnrugby.com/quinns-news-comment/its-the-20-year-anniversary-of-the-1995-rugby-world-cup-read-one-mans-view-on-a-great-but-hugely-controversial-rugby-occasion/

Not sure I agree with you about the racist tweet though. I suspect this is more like the tip of the iceberg, and the media there has given the story a lot of attention. There's never any excuse for racism.
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Post by fa0019 Wed 04 May 2016, 11:10 am

Rowanbi wrote:Even Keith Quinn, one of the most biased Kiwis you'll ever meet,& who was closer to the All Blacks team than just about anyone not directly involved in the squad at the time, had the good grace to concede the story was a hoax, and pretty much a lame excuse by a nation which has never been able to face up to defeat on the rugby paddock
http://keithquinnrugby.com/quinns-news-comment/its-the-20-year-anniversary-of-the-1995-rugby-world-cup-read-one-mans-view-on-a-great-but-hugely-controversial-rugby-occasion/

Not sure I agree with you about the racist tweet though. I suspect this is more like the tip of the iceberg, and the media there has given the story a lot of attention. There's never any excuse for racism.

With a population of 50 million persons you will find an opinion from every angle if you look hard enough. That's not an excuse, that is life. Most people have access to the internet from criminals, to the mentally ill the lot. SA has white racists... so does every single country where white people reside in.  Is it an opinion of the masses or even one which has any subconcious undertones in the white community... no. No more than the actions of Anders Breivik has a baring on the people of Norway.
I can find you a holocaust denier post in every country in the world if you want. Doesn't mean the whole world denies the holocaust ever existed. Using single one off examples in a world of 7 billion people does not suffice I'm afraid in determining a trend.

Players were sick in 1995. Most had recovered by the match but still were not fully fit. Some played when they shouldn't have.... and that is why they lost. Curve balls happen... players get injured in warm ups, players get sick, wives go into labour etc etc.. its how you react to them which counts and in truth the management simply tried to pretend it didn't happen.
They didn't need to point figures and make JFK type accusations, all they needed to do was to deal with the situation as best as they could. They didn't and it probably cost them the game.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 May 2016, 11:42 am

Rowanbi wrote:Currently ranked 25th behind Belgium & Germany. Any reason for asking that on a thread about South Africa hosting an (expanded) World Cup in 2023?

Meanwhile, what non-white South Africans are up against:

Cape Town - A Noordhoek resident’s racist Facebook post, in which he went off on Sports and Recreation Minister Fikile Mbalula’s “ban” on three sporting codes hosting international tournaments, has landed him in hot water.

Matthew Theunissen’s early morning post on Facebook was screengrabbed and quickly went viral on Twitter, where it was shared, and propelled #MattTheunissen to the number one position among the social network’s trending topics.

Theunissen posted on Facebook: “So no more sporting events for South Africa… I’ve never been more proud than to say our government are a bunch of K*****S…yes, I said it so go and f**k yourselves you black f**king c**ts.” (Ed’s note: IOL has inserted the stars)

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/western-cape/matttheunissen-sparks-outcry-with-racist-facebook-post-2016542

& those Suzie stories just won't go away. Madiba's ex-bodyguard decides he wants a little publicity - 21 years after the fact Erm

A former top South African police commander involved with All Blacks security at the 1995 Rugby World Cup says the team was deliberately poisoned before the final against the Springboks.

Rory Steyn - chief bodyguard to President Nelson Mandela - believes betting syndicates were behind the poisoning. The All Blacks lost the Johannesburg final 15-12.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11632939

You're from Hong Kong so as good a reason as any. The pros and cons of SA for the WC have been done, SA are currently not bidding, or barred anyway, and we appear to be moving onto why everyone is racist against SA which is off track anyway.

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 04 May 2016, 11:58 am

Players were sick in 1995. Most had recovered by the match but still were not fully fit. Some played when they shouldn't have.... and that is why they lost.

That and South Africa's amazing defence on the day, led by Joost van der Westhuizen.

With a population of 50 million persons you will find an opinion from every angle if you look hard enough. That's not an excuse, that is life.

About 5 million whites, I believe, and we don't hear about these kinds of stories coming out of most other countries. In fact, my own experiences with white South Africans in Europe is that the views expressed in Theunissen's tweet may by somewhat commonplace. Do you recall Penny Sparrow's highly offensive comments earlier this year? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/05/south-african-woman-faces-criminal-charges-racist-tweets



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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 May 2016, 12:00 pm

You going to correct your earlier misquote of me by the way; add some context etc?

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Post by fa0019 Wed 04 May 2016, 12:00 pm

Rowanbi wrote:Players were sick in 1995. Most had recovered by the match but still were not fully fit. Some played when they shouldn't have.... and that is why they lost.

That and South Africa's amazing defence on the day, led by Joost van der Westhuizen.

With a population of 50 million persons you will find an opinion from every angle if you look hard enough. That's not an excuse, that is life.

About 5 million whites, I believe, and we don't hear about these kinds of stories coming out of most other countries. In fact, my own experiences with white South Africans in Europe is that the views expressed in Theunissen's tweet may by somewhat commonplace. Do you recall Penny Sparrow's highly offensive comments earlier this year? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/05/south-african-woman-faces-criminal-charges-racist-tweets


You don't hear racist tweets coming from Europe, AUS or America?

Never heard of Donald Trump, Marine Le Pen, Nick Griffin etc etc... they're not random citizens. They're political leaders.

Again... picking out single tweets or facebook comments from millions is very very weak.

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 04 May 2016, 12:12 pm

Point taken, but I'm not sure we're talking about exactly the same thing. Racist politicians are undoubtedly worse, in fact. But Theunissen & Sparrow are likely just the tip of the iceberg and it appears the non-white majority of South Africa still have a major battle on their hands to overcome this kind of ingrained prejudice.
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Post by fa0019 Wed 04 May 2016, 12:14 pm

Rowanbi wrote:Point taken, but I'm not sure we're talking about exactly the same thing. Racist politicians are undoubtedly worse, in fact. But Theunissen & Sparrow are likely just the tip of the iceberg and it appears the non-white majority of South Africa still have a major battle on their hands to overcome this kind of ingrained prejudice.

So from 2 examples of 5 million people you see it as the norm rather than the exception.

Solid perspective there.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 04 May 2016, 12:39 pm

Rowanbi wrote:Even Keith Quinn, one of the most biased Kiwis you'll ever meet,& who was closer to the All Blacks team than just about anyone not directly involved in the squad at the time, had the good grace to concede the story was a hoax, and pretty much a lame excuse by a nation which has never been able to face up to defeat on the rugby paddock
http://keithquinnrugby.com/quinns-news-comment/its-the-20-year-anniversary-of-the-1995-rugby-world-cup-read-one-mans-view-on-a-great-but-hugely-controversial-rugby-occasion/

Not sure I agree with you about the racist tweet though. I suspect this is more like the tip of the iceberg, and the media there has given the story a lot of attention. There's never any excuse for racism.
There's never an excuse for racism except when it's against the whites of course, according to you. We all must pay for crimes that have nothing to do with us that happened decades ago. Every race has been oppressed (white slaves in the muslim world etc) and every race can be racist (just look at the ANC). These quotas are racist, simple. They don't even want a 50/50 split, they want 60% of the players to be black and the likes of the beast doesn't count towards the quota because he was born in a different country.

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 04 May 2016, 1:08 pm

So you also regard affirmative action for women as sexism against men, I take it.

We're coming back to the point I made earlier about the discrepancy in attitudes toward racial equality and feminism.

Anyway, regardless of personal views, affirmative action is legal in many developed countries, including Europe, the US and Australasia, and has proved highly effective in many areas of society. This includes quotas for both women and ethnic groups in many instances, but appears only to have been controversial in some situations where the latter is concerned.

What we see here is a great deal more outrage being expressed over quotas designed to redress ingrained prejudice than over expressions of ingrained prejudice themselves, and this regarding a nation with a history of racism. thumbsdown
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 04 May 2016, 1:12 pm

And you taking people out of context Rownabi.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 04 May 2016, 1:47 pm

Rowanbi wrote:So you also regard affirmative action for women as sexism against men, I take it.

We're coming back to the point I made earlier about the discrepancy in attitudes toward racial equality and feminism.

Anyway, regardless of personal views, affirmative action is legal in many developed countries, including Europe, the US and Australasia, and has proved highly effective in many areas of society. This includes quotas for both women and ethnic groups in many instances, but appears only to have been controversial in some situations where the latter is concerned.

What we see here is a great deal more outrage being expressed over quotas designed to redress ingrained prejudice than over expressions of ingrained prejudice themselves, and this regarding a nation with a history of racism. thumbsdown
I don't agree with feminisim if that is what your asking and I'm totally against having to have a certain % of women and men in government. Your mind is too simple to understand the actual agenda behind these movements and just because there isn't an outrage towards these in the mainstream media doesn't mean there isn't a vast amount of people against these "affermative actions". I mean are you seriously naive enough to believe the ANC are doing this for the good of the common black people of Africa? They are just as big of victims in this.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 04 May 2016, 1:54 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:So you also regard affirmative action for women as sexism against men, I take it.

We're coming back to the point I made earlier about the discrepancy in attitudes toward racial equality and feminism.

Anyway, regardless of personal views, affirmative action is legal in many developed countries, including Europe, the US and Australasia, and has proved highly effective in many areas of society. This includes quotas for both women and ethnic groups in many instances, but appears only to have been controversial in some situations where the latter is concerned.

What we see here is a great deal more outrage being expressed over quotas designed to redress ingrained prejudice than over expressions of ingrained prejudice themselves, and this regarding a nation with a history of racism. thumbsdown
I don't agree with feminisim if that is what your asking and I'm totally against having to have a certain % of women and men in government. Your mind is too simple to understand the actual agenda behind these movements and just because there isn't an outrage towards these in the mainstream media doesn't mean there isn't a vast amount of people against these "affermative actions". I mean are you seriously naive enough to believe the ANC are doing this for the good of the common black people of Africa? They are just as big of victims in this.

Problem...or solution, whichever way you argue the concept, is that a vast amount of people in the country that matters (SA) are not against these "affirmative actions" - thus why ANC believe they are appeasing the majority by instigating such programs. I think they are savvy enough to know the policy isn't against the wishes of the majority.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 04 May 2016, 2:18 pm

SecretFly wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:So you also regard affirmative action for women as sexism against men, I take it.

We're coming back to the point I made earlier about the discrepancy in attitudes toward racial equality and feminism.

Anyway, regardless of personal views, affirmative action is legal in many developed countries, including Europe, the US and Australasia, and has proved highly effective in many areas of society. This includes quotas for both women and ethnic groups in many instances, but appears only to have been controversial in some situations where the latter is concerned.

What we see here is a great deal more outrage being expressed over quotas designed to redress ingrained prejudice than over expressions of ingrained prejudice themselves, and this regarding a nation with a history of racism. thumbsdown
I don't agree with feminisim if that is what your asking and I'm totally against having to have a certain % of women and men in government. Your mind is too simple to understand the actual agenda behind these movements and just because there isn't an outrage towards these in the mainstream media doesn't mean there isn't a vast amount of people against these "affermative actions". I mean are you seriously naive enough to believe the ANC are doing this for the good of the common black people of Africa? They are just as big of victims in this.

Problem...or solution, whichever way you argue the concept, is that a vast amount of people in the country that matters (SA) are not against these "affirmative actions" - thus why ANC believe they are appeasing the majority by instigating such programs.  I think they are savvy enough to know the policy isn't against the wishes of the majority.
Is that why the ANC are struggling to get re elected? Perhaps you should click on that link I provided earlier and see what SA rugby fans think of these actions. These are not going down well in SA.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 04 May 2016, 2:33 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Is that why the ANC are struggling to get re elected? Perhaps you should click on that link I provided earlier and see what SA rugby fans think of these actions. These are not going down well in SA.

Don't shoot the messenger LeinsterFan Wink.  

We're agreed that ANC want to stay in power?  Therefore I say that they know the dynamics of doing so better than most commentators here.  
You should check out one or two links much higher up and listen to the ANC opposition.  ANC certainly are.  And it seems the imperative, goaded on by the opinions of the opposition, is not to fudge the issue and go backwards on the policy but to push on harder and be seen to be taking practical steps to do so.
Listen to the voices of opposition - black opposition to ANC rule - and you'll see quickly that the alternative to ANC might be much more forthright indeed in imposing cultural 'quotas' ...and not just in rugby.

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 04 May 2016, 4:39 pm

Seems to be almost epidemic. These stories just keep popping up ...

DA chief whip John Steenhuisen said on Wednesday the incident where the EFF’s Nazier Paulsen called DA MP Yusuf Cassiem a “k****r” has been escalated.

“I raised this matter in this morning’s whips’ forum and was assured by the (ANC) chief whip, Jackson Mthembu that he would personally take the matter up with the Speaker, Baleka Mbete,” said Steenhuisen.

During the Department of International Relations and Co-operation’s budget vote on Tuesday, Paulsen and Cassiem exchanged words regarding the DA’s position on Palestine. It culminated in Paulsen calling Cassiem the K-word.


http://www.iol.co.za/capetimes/eff-mps-k-word-slur-in-parliament-spotlight-2017484
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Post by Rowanbi Wed 04 May 2016, 4:42 pm

I don't agree with feminisim

Shocked I know the American media, in particular, has completely distorted the issue by confusing feminism with pointless male-bashing, so that even women themselves have become ashamed of the term, but all "feminism" actually means is equal rights for women. Surely you'd support that, Leinster.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 04 May 2016, 4:54 pm

Rowanbi wrote:I don't agree with feminisim

Shocked I know the American media, in particular, has completely distorted the issue by confusing feminism with pointless male-bashing, so that even women themselves have become ashamed of the term, but all "feminism" actually means is equal rights for women. Surely you'd support that, Leinster.
Is that the only thing you want to reply to my comment on? Rolling Eyes . Why do I even bother.

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Post by Mr Fishpaste Wed 04 May 2016, 5:09 pm

Rowanbi wrote:Seems to be almost epidemic. These stories just keep popping up ...

DA chief whip John Steenhuisen said on Wednesday the incident where the EFF’s Nazier Paulsen called DA MP Yusuf Cassiem a “k****r” has been escalated.

“I raised this matter in this morning’s whips’ forum and was assured by the (ANC) chief whip, Jackson Mthembu that he would personally take the matter up with the Speaker, Baleka Mbete,” said Steenhuisen.

During the Department of International Relations and Co-operation’s budget vote on Tuesday, Paulsen and Cassiem exchanged words regarding the DA’s position on Palestine. It culminated in Paulsen calling Cassiem the K-word.


http://www.iol.co.za/capetimes/eff-mps-k-word-slur-in-parliament-spotlight-2017484

And here is where the context matters: In this case, the guy who used the K-word was a non-white, and he was from the EFF, an ultra black nationalist party. He directed it against a non-white from the DA which is a traditionally white party, and it is the DA who are complaining about its use. So I'm not entirely sure what epidemic this is indicative of!

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Post by Mr Fishpaste Wed 04 May 2016, 5:28 pm

Regarding Affirmative Action in Rugby: As I've said elsewhere, it would be different if the govt. was actually interested in the transformation of rugby (interested enough, say, to put money into it)...but they're not. This current rugby quota business is purely to score cheap political points. Hence I'm against it.

Regarding Affirmative Action in general in SA: while I agree with the need for AA in principle, in practice it hasn't worked out well.

1. It has provided opportunity for nepotism and cronyism on a massive scale.
2. Because competence gets replaced as the primary qualification for appointment, critical portfolios in important industries and services have been filled with incompetent people. Hence essential service-delivery organs like the department of Health and Education etc. have failed (dismally) to fulfil their mandate to serve the people...and the people who suffer from this are the poor black majority, the very people who were supposed to be the beneficiaries...as a result the average income of black people has decreased (in real terms) since the end of Apartheid despite the fact that AA has created a large black middle class (which outnumbers the white middle class)....why has the wealth redistribution resultant from AA not been spread more widely you ask? See point 1 above: the same people become repeated beneficiaries of AA, over and over again.

Apologies to those who came onto a Sport forum expecting to read about rugby.

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Post by emack2 Wed 04 May 2016, 5:44 pm

A few points,it is simplistic to say NZ should have picked a different team most of
the Squad was effected.Wilson and Merthens especially it came down as it always
does to goal kicking.
In 1995 Merthens missed a drop Stransky didn't,as in 2003 Larkham missed,JW didn't.
As to not picking Non-Whites Pre 1970 that was in respect to there hosts which in
Amateur days was a big thing.
In those days Assistant Managers for Tours were selected by the Wellington Mafia
and it was services to Rugby NOT there Coaching abilities,should have been [Cavanagh[49]
Everest[60] Allen[70].
Neutral Refs,would indeed have made a huge difference World wide,EVERYONE moans
about the REF at sometime.
Conspiracy rumours abound that the France Semi-Final was fixed too,and I ALWAYS
expect the Boks to win at Home[Ditto AB`s]
Kevin Skinner bought back to FIGHT the Boks?in the Second text both AB Props
were ruled out for the rest of the Series.
Skinner was THE Best Prop in NZ on either Head,and an automatic choice,the Line Outs
and Scrums were the Jungle.Where the Front Row Mafia fought for supremacy Skinner
retaliated against illegal lineout/scrum moves by Koch and Bekker.
Since when has Bok Rugby been squeaky clean?does riot call 99 ring a bell?they were
notorious for dirty play as well as any other side.
Rugby Union has always been the sign of White[boer]manhood hence the targeting
of them by the ANC.
Do you REALLY think all the players in Europe/Japan were there just for money?IF
they couldn't still play for the Boks they`d be resident in SA still.
SA certainly deserves a chance to host another RWC, BUT it would be nice to have
someone other than the usual suspects hosting it.
I repeat I am interested in teams be selected on MERIT NOT a Propaganda exercise.
For a Nation of just over two million NZ punches well above its weight in it`s.
sporting endeavours.
For the record I`m an Anglo-Scot NOT a NZ born person.

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Post by Mr Fishpaste Wed 04 May 2016, 9:04 pm

Emack...I'm not sure what the 99 call proves about the Boks! It was an orchestrated campaign of dirty play carried out by the LIONS. The Boks were victims of it.

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 04 May 2016, 10:34 pm

As to not picking Non-Whites Pre 1970 that was in respect to there hosts which in
Amateur days was a big thing.


Bigger than respect for the non-white majority of Africans, evidently.

In those days Assistant Managers for Tours were selected by the Wellington Mafia
and it was services to Rugby NOT there Coaching abilities,should have been [Cavanagh[49] Everest[60] Allen[70].


What "Wellington Mafia?" & who was "Everest?"

Kevin Skinner bought back to FIGHT the Boks?

Bragged about it himself on a video put together in the mid-80s about the history of New Zealand rugby . Also, quoted bragging about it in the aforementioned annal of New Zealand rugby thuggery

SA certainly deserves a chance to host another RWC, BUT it would be nice to have
someone other than the usual suspects hosting it.


Like Japan in 3 years' time, you mean? Well, NZ, Australia, England, France and all of the Celtic unions have been involved in hosting it at least twice, so I say give SA their overdue second turn in 2023, provided they do go through with the bid, and then look to Italy for its return to the NH.

For a Nation of just over two million NZ punches well above its weight in it`s.
sporting endeavours.


About 4.5 million, I believe. Partly agree with that. There is a good climate and stable economy, and therefore high participation in sports, which are basically the backbone of New Zealand culture. But they do tend to specialize on non-mainstream sports like rugby, league, netball and softball - which only a handful of other countries take remotely seriously.
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Post by emack2 Thu 05 May 2016, 2:39 am

The Lions 99 call was in RESPONSE to expected SA rough play,violence was endemic
on most Tours to SA and NZ.
Skinner was given the business by Koch and Bekker when when a youngster in
1949,1956 was payback time.
The Front Row Mafia was cherished tradition in Union and SA wrote the book on it.
The 3-4-1 Scrum now universal is the Bok Scrum,the Bok Hook was technically
illegal by the laws of the day.
The Wellington Mafia in NZRFU had a minimum of 4 votes permanently as opposed
too one by other provinces.On Commitees that involved Management/selection on
Tours.
Everest,was Dick Everest the Waikato Coach that defeated SA first up in 1956 and
leading Coach of the period.
RUGBY NOT MAINSTREAM?


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