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2023 (expanded) Rugby World Cup for South Africa

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Post by fa0019 Fri 22 Apr 2016, 3:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

doctor_grey wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
SecretFly wrote:JFK left a final directive just weeks before he was assassinated that impelled the CIA to stop at all cost South Africa having more than one hosting of a World Cup per 20 year period.

The CIA, feeling guilty about Oswald and all, are trying to keep to the promise.... for old time's sake.

That's the only connection I can find between JFK and this thread...from reading 700 autobiographical books by Kennedy's Women.
I have the same abridged version of JFK and his women, too.  I read the same thing.  Camelot (the JFK presidency) strictly prohibited SA from hosting more than one RWC.  Said  it would endanger world security.  I thought I read in the Snowdon leaks the CIA is keeping Zuma in charge because no one in his right mind would put a major competition in a country wohch woul elect him.  It is all a plot hatched over 40 years ago.

The final part makes more sense then him simply appealing to the electorate.
I always thought it was the Mafia who got him elected.  So the mafia was his electorate, no?  Just like FIFA.

standard policy of slandering your rivals as witches and getting lookalikes to feature in grainy video stings with prostitutes.

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Post by Rowanbi Mon 25 Apr 2016, 8:43 am

Yes,  Hammersmith, I can see how in your warped imagination criticizing the stranglehold the white minority maintain over the South African economy, in partnership with foreign interests and the ANC, must amount to racial prejudice.

Whereas simply blaming everything on the non-white majority and describing them as 'extremely violent' - without relating the broader circumstances - is the epitome of liberalism.

& I can see, Great Auckster, how your depraved variety of logic has brought you to the conclusion that assurances of maximum security to allay concerns about crime, as has been demonstrated effectively in the past (many times), are tantamount to not taking muggers and murders seriously. That makes perfect sense.

& don't lose too much sleep over all the people in the streets with knives, because the rugby fraternity will actually be going there to play, watch and support rugby, not indulge in knife fights.


& yes, 7&1/2, I can also see how you interpreted my comments that staging the tournament in a predominantly non-European community for a change would be in the bests interests of World Rugby's self-proclaimed mandate to globalize - as well as a wonderful cultural experience - amounted to simply wanting it in SA because it has the most black people.


Other reasons - the second largest rugby community on the planet (after the nation that just hosted it) and second most successful rugby team, the best array of rugby-purpose statiums backed by an equally impressive array of football stadiums upgraded for the 2010 FIFA World Cup, the best attendances at club rugby, a large population, vast geography and favorable weather conditions, and, yes, a rich cultural heritage that offers something different to Northwest Europe & Australasia.

So, is anybody here actually capable of engaging in a sensible discussion?


Last edited by Rowanbi on Mon 25 Apr 2016, 8:46 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 8:45 am

You did say that that was an upside in this thread Rowanbi. I don't think we should base decisions on ethnicity.

On your last point everyone has.

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Post by Rowanbi Mon 25 Apr 2016, 8:49 am

staging the tournament in a predominantly non-European community for a change would be in the bests interests of World Rugby's self-proclaimed mandate to globalize - as well as a wonderful cultural experience


So if that's your interpretation of the above viewpoint, then by your method of evaluation I would have to assume the reason you guys don't want it in SA is precisely because it has the most black people - who you have described as 'extremely violent, corrupt and totally responsible for all their own problems in the post-Apartheid era.' Sure keep on telling us about "racial prejudice," chaps. You're obviously real experts on the issue Rolling Eyes

So, is anybody here actually capable of engaging in a sensible discussion?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 8:53 am

No, more 'Exactly. South Africa is the only member of the central committee with a non-white majority. All the more reason to send it back to the African continent after a 3 decades' absence'

I disagree completely that decisions on where a tournament is held should be based on ethnicity as I said.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Mon 25 Apr 2016, 8:56 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I was being sarcastic and your mindless anti UK and US rants are hilarious to say the least.

Must admit I laughed too, a true trail of comedy.

1. Rowan posts an Aljazeera interview conducted by an Englishman.
2. Rowan then makes an accusation against the white Aljazeera journalist towards the manner in which he interviews a black man.
3. Rowan then proceeds to lecture us on the ways the US and Britain have exploited their people, and the CIA backed coups.

Aljazeera is one of the Worlds most alternative minded News agencies and one of the biggest, Aljazeera stations have been the subject of American missile hits in both Kabul and Baghdad, had journalists just recently freed from Egyptian jails, etc etc and Rowan comes along and suggests the journalist is racist!!!!!!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 8:57 am

Oh and incidentally I've never used those words to describe SA.

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Post by Rowanbi Mon 25 Apr 2016, 9:07 am

7&1/2, I never used the words you claimed I had either. That was precisely my point. Doh

Hammersmith, I posted a link to an interesting interview providing some insight into the current political situation in South Africa. A few of us made observations and one of mine was that it was unlikely a white leader would be interrogated like that over his expensive watch and clothes. You evidently took exception to that observation and, by your own admission, made a sarcastic remark on the highly sensitive topic of racism. When I misinterpreted that remark as a serious question, and gave you a brief overview of South African political history in the post-Apartheid era, which of couse includes exploitation by foreign companies (an ongoing issue), you described this as an hilarious rant.

But I should have known better of course. You weren't asking a serious question because you're not capable of holding a serious discussion. Sarcastic comments appear to be your limit, the intention quite clearly being to derail serious discussions when you can't keep up and can't force your own uninformed viewpoint.

So, is anybody here actually capable of engaging in a sensible discussion?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 9:09 am

You did say that the non white majority was more reason for SA to host. I wasn't directly quoting you hence no ' ' like you used. As I said I disagree that ethnicity should be held as a reason for a particular host; have you changed your mind on this?

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Post by Rowanbi Mon 25 Apr 2016, 9:16 am

Suggesting the non-white majority was a favorable aspect from both a cultural perspective and in terms of globalizing the sport is not remotely the same as simply saying you "want it there because it has the most black people."
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 9:30 am

So like I said you see it as a positive, whereas I don't think the ethnic makeup should be considered when making this decision.

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 9:53 am

Rowanbi wrote:As regards the interviewer's questions on Malema's attire, I'd be inclined to agree with you.

Regarding the current political situation in SA I'd suggest it probably has more to do with class warfare and exploitation of the impoverished masses by the wealthy elite. This is hardly confined to South Africa, of course. The US and Britain do this to their own people, as well as all the countries they've invaded - and especially those where they've propped up dictatorships. That's what all the CIA-backed coups have been about - from Iran in 1953 right up to Ukraine in 2014. In Africa they've generally preferred the Big Man dictatorships and authoratarian rulers; basically a post-colonial equivalent of the village chiefs, who themselves had been a European invention, replacing traditional councils of elders and making unilateral decisons, which were enforced at the point of a gun where necessary. South Africa's case was different, because the white minority retained control in the post-colonial era and were a willing partner in European trade and business deals. So that's how it evolved under Apartheid; the ruling class and foreign investors plundered the nation's vast natural resources, with little of the wealth trickling down to the majority, whose physical labour, too, was ruthlessly exploited. We now know that agreements were reached at secret meetings between ANC members (including the imprisoned Mandela) and the ruling elite, along with representatives of major foreign companies such as British mining giant Consolidated Goldfields, on power-sharing and collective control of the economic system in the post-Apatheid era. So all that changed was that political apartheid was replaced by economic apartheid under this facade of 'democracy.'

The guy just had a court case and was convicted of stealing state funds... in addition to being made bankrupt and having all his assets confiscated. I think its highly reasonable to ask a guy who still owes millions of rand (hundreds of thousands GBP or EUR) into how he manages to still have very expensive goods/cars/houses... all apparently owned by others.

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Post by Rowanbi Mon 25 Apr 2016, 10:49 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So like I said you see it as a positive, whereas I don't think the ethnic makeup should be considered when making this decision.

That's because you don't view it in the context of cultural diversity nor globalization of the sport. It's not a reason to choose South Africa, btw, simply a favorable by-product. In fact, I'm sure this was the number one reason most people were delighted by the choice of Japan for 2019, breaking a two decades-long cycle of northwest Europe followed by Australasia. Personally I can't wait to see how the tournament goes down in the Far East. But that's not the same as saying I want it there simply because they're mostly Asians...

The guy just had a court case and was convicted of stealing state funds... in addition to being made bankrupt and having all his assets confiscated. I think its highly reasonable to ask a guy who still owes millions of rand (hundreds of thousands GBP or EUR) into how he manages to still have very expensive goods/cars/houses... all apparently owned by others.

A sensible response for a change Very Happy Fair comments, too, however, would you not agree that the white elite and foreign companies which continue to maintain a stranglehold on the economy, in partnership with the ANC, are as guilty of plundering the nations wealth - if not more so, while continuing their exploitation of the impoverished masses. But do we hear anyone questioning them about their expensive watches and clothing? & there are plenty of other examples around the world, convicted or otherwise, with Berlusconi, Sarkozy & Blair, to name just a few; but do we hear interviewers questioning them about their expensive watches and clothing? Not even Sepp Blatter and Michelle Platini have been asked questions like that, to my knowledge.

Anyway, just been reading another ineresting story on South African politics:

The Employment Equity Commission (EEC), which releases its annual report today, says white men are still in control, but it plans on holding a number of workshops to establish why business is failing to reach affirmative action targets.
http://www.iol.co.za/capetimes/white-males-still-baas-2013794
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 10:54 am

You're right I don't view it in the context of the culture or diversity of the nation planning on holding it, shouldn't come into. How good their team is shoudln't come into it. Have they got suitable plans in place to hold it, for me is the most important. All the 2023 have, spreading the game should be next hence looking at new hosts. Hence Italy being my preferred choice.

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 10:54 am

Rowanbi wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So like I said you see it as a positive, whereas I don't think the ethnic makeup should be considered when making this decision.

That's because you don't view it in the context of cultural diversity nor globalization of the sport. It's not a reason to choose South Africa, btw, simply a favorable by-product. In fact, I'm sure this was the number one reason most people were delighted by the choice of Japan for 2019, breaking a two decades-long cycle of northwest Europe followed by Australasia. Personally I can't wait to see how the tournament goes down in the Far East. But that's not the same as saying I want it there simply because they're mostly Asians...

The guy just had a court case and was convicted of stealing state funds... in addition to being made bankrupt and having all his assets confiscated. I think its highly reasonable to ask a guy who still owes millions of rand (hundreds of thousands GBP or EUR) into how he manages to still have very expensive goods/cars/houses... all apparently owned by others.

A sensible response for a change  Very Happy  Fair comments, too, however, would you not agree that the white elite and foreign companies which continue to maintain a stranglehold on the economy, in partnership with the ANC, are as guilty of plundering the nations wealth - if not more so, while continuing their exploitation of the impoverished masses. But do we hear anyone questioning them about their expensive watches and clothing? & there are plenty of other examples around the world, convicted or otherwise, with Berlusconi, Sarkozy & Blair, to name just a few; but do we hear interviewers questioning them about their expensive watches and clothing? Not even Sepp Blatter and Michelle Platini have been asked questions like that, to my knowledge.

Anyway, just been reading another ineresting story on South African politics:

The Employment Equity Commission (EEC), which releases its annual report today, says white men are still in control, but it plans on holding a number of workshops to establish why business is failing to reach affirmative action targets.
http://www.iol.co.za/capetimes/white-males-still-baas-2013794

How many of those persons have gone bankrupt though?

Berlusconi - Billionaire
Sarkozy, Blair, Blatter, Platini - multimillionaires



Melema - bankrupt, still owes millions of rand to the government due to unpaid debts. Probably has more bling then those mentioned bar Berlusconi.

Its a fair question.

This is the problem with SA. White man asks an African a question and without knowing the full story people jump on the bandwagon... "double standards only because he is African".

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Post by Welly Mon 25 Apr 2016, 11:18 am

CBA to look further back has this been posted?

http://www.sport24.co.za/OtherSport/South-Africa/mbalula-bans-sa-from-bidding-for-major-rugby-cricket-events-20160425

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 11:25 am

Welly wrote: CBA to look further back has this been posted?

http://www.sport24.co.za/OtherSport/South-Africa/mbalula-bans-sa-from-bidding-for-major-rugby-cricket-events-20160425

jokes huh... "morally its the right thing to do".

In the end does it benefit the home team, sometimes yes, sometimes no..... but who it certainly helps is the people, businesses, tourism. That is the only people you're really hurting. He praises the football team here but previously had called them "a bunch of losers" due to their constant failure on the pitch... all he needs is a court case for embezzlement of funds, a few mistresses in the news and he'll be presidential material.

Whatever he says no one should take notice of. Small potatoes.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 25 Apr 2016, 11:26 am

Just seen that elsewhere Welly.

What the hell is going on down there??!!!!

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Post by Sin é Mon 25 Apr 2016, 11:31 am

Bids have to be in for World Cup in May 2017. Without Government support, SARU can forget it.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 25 Apr 2016, 11:36 am

But the Football team is fine because it is largely black.

Sad state of affairs over there.

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 11:44 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Just seen that elsewhere Welly.

What the hell is going on down there??!!!!

Its all smoke screens. Whenever the govt. is in trouble they start talking about "third forces", "evil white men controlling SA like puppet masters".. all to divert attention away from their own failings.

The guy is a luddite. Say the word "science" to him and he'll say "you mean stuff my witch doctor does". No one in the world thinks such, well bar previous regimes such as Nazi Germany.

Outsiders think oh transformation is good right.. i.e. giving all people opportunity to compete fairly in a sport right. Opportunity yes, selection... no. That's no sport otherwise... its social engineering that the soviets would have been proud of. It has as much intelligence in it as Mark Regan.

Guys like Amla, guys like Bryan Habana they don't count towards "transformation" because they're not African. They were discriminated against in the old days, they're discriminated against today... nothing really changed for them. In some ways yes, their opportunities are better but in reality they're still back of the queue.

Personally I'd respect him more if he came out and said.... "look I know the truth, whites/coloureds are good at rugby... but I don't care, I don't want them representing my country".

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 11:46 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:But the Football team is fine because it is largely black.

Sad state of affairs over there.

The football team used to be the best in Africa in the 90s when they had the freedom to choose who they wanted. Then you saw whites, coloureds and Africans play in similar numbers. Now its all changed, all African and they're dire.

Bafana Bafana... more like Maisie Maisie (I think only saffa's will get that).

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 11:50 am

So what's the answer to get the better represenation then? It's a long process and hard too. Positive discrimination has a lot of drawbacks but there is the flip side that a load of people are happy with how it is currently.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:00 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So what's the answer to get the better represenation then? It's a long process and hard too. Positive discrimination has a lot of drawbacks but there is the flip side that a load of people are happy with how it is currently.

Why does it need to be?

Surely you just pick the best players whatever colour - black, white, green, polka dot....

I do appreciate its South Africa we are talking about though.

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So what's the answer to get the better represenation then? It's a long process and hard too. Positive discrimination has a lot of drawbacks but there is the flip side that a load of people are happy with how it is currently.

The answer is build a winning team. Winning is the greatest attraction to the sport, not representation. A winning team with opportunities for all. At the moment due to high levels of player numbers and skill from the coloured community, its near impossible for the boks to field a all white team in rugby.

No one likes losers. You see as many non whites fans in springbok colours today as white fans. Outsiders are told lies that only Africans can inspire Africans. That's just casual racism in itself. Outside I can see why its understandable, people are fed lies about how whites are only friends with whites etc etc etc.

Have a look at any kid today aged about 4-6. Their heroes are often based upon who they like, not who is most like them etc. They haven't been taught yet of societies ills. They like players in teams their parents don't support, they like white players, black players, they like movie stars, characters for who they are... but what they like is winners.

There is much more of this I can go on about but I'd rather simply stick to rugby... if you want to attract people, build a winning side.

Just like no people will want to go and see their team get beat 100-0 by NZ and think... I want to be like those guys, you know those beaten black and blue and embarrassed in front of the whole nation.

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Post by beshocked Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:18 pm

Geordiefalcon I agree, I do think it's backward thinking. It's like if Britain said we need to pick more white sprinters because the majority of the population are white. Should encourage more white sprinters... Of course that's ridiculous.

Should be the best. Of course there's a debate whether certain people should qualify to represent a country but that's not to do with skin colour.

Of course it's a bit more complicated in South Africa but you would think in the 21st century that race should be less significant.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:19 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So what's the answer to get the better represenation then? It's a long process and hard too. Positive discrimination has a lot of drawbacks but there is the flip side that a load of people are happy with how it is currently.

Why does it need to be?

Surely you just pick the best players whatever colour - black, white, green, polka dot....

I do appreciate its South Africa we are talking about though.

That's the problem I suspect in a country with such a long and violent history based on just exactly who does/did the picking, choosing, law giving and deciding about what is 'best' and what 'isn't.

There is nothing simple about South Africa - in a sense a very, very young Nation indeed, with still lots of complexities and issues to work through yet.

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:19 pm

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon I agree, I do think it's backward thinking. It's like if Britain said we need to pick more white sprinters because the majority of the population are white. Should encourage more white sprinters...  Of course that's ridiculous.

Should be the best. Of course there's a debate whether certain people should qualify to represent a country but that's not to do with skin colour.

Of course it's a bit more complicated in South Africa but you would think in the 21st century that race should be less significant.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

The rugby community, the sporting community should be against such moves. Just like they were right to be against them when non whites were barred.

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Post by Knowsit17 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:27 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So what's the answer to get the better represenation then? It's a long process and hard too. Positive discrimination has a lot of drawbacks but there is the flip side that a load of people are happy with how it is currently.

Why does it need to be?

Surely you just pick the best players whatever colour - black, white, green, polka dot....

I do appreciate its South Africa we are talking about though.

I can't really express the idea any better than this so I won't try.

Shame the corruption-riddled SA government sees it more in terms of a compensational agenda for Apartheid i.e. 'they dominated us before, we deserve to dominate them today'

The only clear-cut form of equality is not taking colour into account even for a second when assessing an individual's ability. The ANC's approach is black for the sake of black, not black for the sake of individual merit, talent and all the other equality principles they pretend to know so much about.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:28 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So what's the answer to get the better represenation then? It's a long process and hard too. Positive discrimination has a lot of drawbacks but there is the flip side that a load of people are happy with how it is currently.

Why does it need to be?

Surely you just pick the best players whatever colour - black, white, green, polka dot....

I do appreciate its South Africa we are talking about though.

Because at the moment it does appear to be lets keep the team white.

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Post by Rowanbi Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:29 pm

It's like if Britain said we need to pick more white sprinters because the majority of the population are white. Should encourage more white sprinters...

White Britons suffered decades of Apartheid and exclusion, did they?
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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So what's the answer to get the better represenation then? It's a long process and hard too. Positive discrimination has a lot of drawbacks but there is the flip side that a load of people are happy with how it is currently.

Why does it need to be?

Surely you just pick the best players whatever colour - black, white, green, polka dot....

I do appreciate its South Africa we are talking about though.

Because at the moment it does appear to be lets keep the team white.

7.5 - please explain?

You think their are non white players about that could improve the side? If so please show examples.

Peter De Villiers was Cape Coloured.... picked literally 12 starting white players for near every game. The only non white player he brought in who was a little ignored by Jake White was Adi Jacobs.... and you know, every coach has their own opinions on players, some guys don't like others. Its a fact of life.

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Post by FerN Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:32 pm

Thinks this closes the issue:

http://www.sport24.co.za/OtherSport/South-Africa/mbalula-bans-sa-from-bidding-for-major-rugby-cricket-events-20160425

Edit:
Link has already been posted


Last edited by FerN on Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Knowsit17 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:33 pm

Rowanbi wrote:It's like if Britain said we need to pick more white sprinters because the majority of the population are white. Should encourage more white sprinters...

White Britons suffered decades of Apartheid and exclusion, did they?

No but Apartheid should have nothing to do with rugby selection criteria to begin with.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:35 pm

I meant in terms of the SA fans sorry. There's no need to change it white players are better, bigger etc. All about the government wanting to punish the white peoples sport. It would be far better for SA in the long run gte the best out of their population not just to accept black people don't like the sport etc. I've said before any quotas can't be introduced purely as the only means for this, and if there is a better way so be it. there doesn't appear to be the progressive movement here though so in my mind may be worth a try.

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:36 pm

Rowanbi wrote:It's like if Britain said we need to pick more white sprinters because the majority of the population are white. Should encourage more white sprinters...

White Britons suffered decades of Apartheid and exclusion, did they?

If there was a huge underground movement of ridiculously good non white players you would have known about it. They would have been picked up by others, picked up by the Italian leagues, come to England like Basil D'Oliveria.... but you know what... they didn't.

Got a challenge for you Rowanbi.... make a list of all the non white and all the white players in other leagues. Lets suggest Europe is not racist and only cares about winning... if so and if SA is so racist then you'd see a pattern emerging

i.e.

In SA leagues non white representation is x%.

In foreign leagues, the SA players who are non white are >x%.

I think you'll find that bar one or two exceptions, the players who go abroad are almost exlcusively white... now why is that? Non whites now make up 35% of players in the Stormers, Bulls and Sharks. Why so few non whites making it abroad?

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:42 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I meant in terms of the SA fans sorry. There's no need to change it white players are better, bigger etc. All about the government wanting to punish the white peoples sport. It would be far better for SA in the long run gte the best out of their population not just to accept black people don't like the sport etc. I've said before any quotas can't be introduced purely as the only means for this, and if there is a better way so be it. there doesn't appear to be the progressive movement here though so in my mind may be worth a try.

Look I'd be more than happy for much of grassroots spending to go heavily on African talent as you say, big pop, untapped etc. Find those diamonds. But its not done so... they expect others to pay.... won't pay for schools to play but expect private schools to spend their own money on bursaries for good African kids to come and play for them.  
Big words, no action. Its the SA way.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:44 pm

Fair enough, difficult and costly. So another way is to get those black role models in the team. Take away those thoughts that they aren't suited to the game. Anyway a big side step away from the World Cup, none of this has any real bearing on that decision.

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:55 pm

Ok so just done some quick 5 mins research of South Africans in the Aviva Premiership

There are 24 South African players in the league (inc. Brad Barritt).

The next question is how many of them are white, how many of the them are non white????

Drumroll......

22 White.
1 coloured (Ashley Johnson of Wasps)
1 African (Brian Mujati... who is actually Zimbabwean).

So why is it that SA fields 35% non white squads for their 3 top sides, the other 2 are over 20% yet when it comes to players being attractive to foreign teams they are almost exlcusively white?

a resounding 92% of all players are white.

Now is it because the English clubs are racist and only want white players? You could easily counter this by saying look at the number of non white indigneous players in the English game, the polynesians, the Fijians etc.

So why are non whites so unattractive to the AP if they're not racist and clearly offer more money to all SA based players?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:58 pm

Because there are more good white players available at present?

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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr 2016, 1:02 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:It's like if Britain said we need to pick more white sprinters because the majority of the population are white. Should encourage more white sprinters...

White Britons suffered decades of Apartheid and exclusion, did they?

No but Apartheid should have nothing to do with rugby selection criteria to begin with.

In an ideal world. South Africa is part of the real world. Apartheid is still a very big elephant in the room.......... just ask the operators of the apartment complex that Pistorious lived in.... even ask his black/coloured? servant that was in the same building on the night that Reeva was killed yet never testified.

It's the real world, Knowsit. Mandela did a good job for a decade or so covering up the cracks and presenting the veneer of 'All is Now Well with the World'. But any slight study of the under-surface would tell you that South Africa has a long way to go. So it's natural that race is still such a sensitive issue. The Western World has moved on and forgotten the truth...and probably believed to much in the fairytale Mandela was presenting to the world.

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 1:02 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because there are more good white players available at present?

yet only 2 out of 24?

English clubs offer more money.. a lot more money.
There are a large number of non white players getting game time.

Take the Ndugane twins for example. one played for the bulls, the other for the sharks. Akona won the world cup, Ouda had a more illustrious domestic game though and has played for the sharks for a decade and toured with the 2011 RWC team. Both have never been poached by foreign sides. Why?

Is it that they're happy to be paid their SA salary and love their mom's home cooking too much???

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 1:05 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:It's like if Britain said we need to pick more white sprinters because the majority of the population are white. Should encourage more white sprinters...

White Britons suffered decades of Apartheid and exclusion, did they?

No but Apartheid should have nothing to do with rugby selection criteria to begin with.

In an ideal world.  South Africa is part of the real world.  Apartheid is still a very big elephant in the room.......... just ask the operators of the apartment complex that Pistorious lived in.... even ask his black/coloured? servant that was in the same building on the night that Reeva was killed yet never testified.

It's the real world, Knowsit.  Mandela did a good job for a decade or so covering up the cracks and presenting the veneer of 'All is Now Well with the World'.  But any slight study of the under-surface would tell you that South Africa has a long way to go.  So it's natural that race is still such a sensitive issue.  The Western World has moved on and forgotten the truth...and probably believed to much in the fairytale Mandela was presenting to the world.

You think Pistorious' servant was being dutiful to him like a slave to a cotton plantation owner? Or that he was paid to keep quiet?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 1:06 pm

And France more money still. I suppose you have to go through player by player, the clubs they're with now, when they because available, what they cost, the comparative players at the time who were available and their cost. None of that is poaching by the way.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 25 Apr 2016, 1:06 pm

Forgive me if im getting this totally wrong...but I always thought it was down to preferences.

The majority of blacks tend to prefer football...a trend all over Africa and the whites preferred rugby.

IF the coloureds and blacks are CHOOSING to play football then there simply wont be a huge number playing rugby and from that fewer will make the standards required.


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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 1:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And France more money still. I suppose you have to go through player by player, the clubs they're with now, when they because available, what they cost, the comparative players at the time who were available and their cost. None of that is poaching by the way.

I agree, not poaching.... scouting.

I can do the same for France btw, even Japan. I bet there will be more, and the figures will be the same. In the end we can say oh player preferance and all... and yes, players want to stay in SA because its home, because it means greater access for bok selection. Yet their are many players who don't get that and foreign travel, bigger salaries... they're big incentives.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 25 Apr 2016, 1:13 pm

fa0019 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:It's like if Britain said we need to pick more white sprinters because the majority of the population are white. Should encourage more white sprinters...

White Britons suffered decades of Apartheid and exclusion, did they?

No but Apartheid should have nothing to do with rugby selection criteria to begin with.

In an ideal world.  South Africa is part of the real world.  Apartheid is still a very big elephant in the room.......... just ask the operators of the apartment complex that Pistorious lived in.... even ask his black/coloured? servant that was in the same building on the night that Reeva was killed yet never testified.

It's the real world, Knowsit.  Mandela did a good job for a decade or so covering up the cracks and presenting the veneer of 'All is Now Well with the World'.  But any slight study of the under-surface would tell you that South Africa has a long way to go.  So it's natural that race is still such a sensitive issue.  The Western World has moved on and forgotten the truth...and probably believed to much in the fairytale Mandela was presenting to the world.

You think Pistorious' servant was being dutiful to him like a slave to a cotton plantation owner? Or that he was paid to keep quiet?

I believe neither as I believe a fully functioning legal system should have made either excuse redundant. A man who was in the same building on the night, in a building where shouts and gunfire woke neighbours, should have been forced into court to answer questions about the night. But the fact that neither the Prosecution nor the Defence seemed interested in him suggests other kinds of social cover-ups were keeping him off the stand. Not for a second do I believe the excuse that he was asleep???? (I seem to recall such an idea put forward) is remotely a good enough one to keep him out of that courtroom.

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Post by Guest Mon 25 Apr 2016, 1:16 pm

SARU banned from hosting major tournaments (for now):

SARU

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 1:18 pm

Italy then?

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Post by fa0019 Mon 25 Apr 2016, 1:20 pm

SecretFly wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:It's like if Britain said we need to pick more white sprinters because the majority of the population are white. Should encourage more white sprinters...

White Britons suffered decades of Apartheid and exclusion, did they?

No but Apartheid should have nothing to do with rugby selection criteria to begin with.

In an ideal world.  South Africa is part of the real world.  Apartheid is still a very big elephant in the room.......... just ask the operators of the apartment complex that Pistorious lived in.... even ask his black/coloured? servant that was in the same building on the night that Reeva was killed yet never testified.

It's the real world, Knowsit.  Mandela did a good job for a decade or so covering up the cracks and presenting the veneer of 'All is Now Well with the World'.  But any slight study of the under-surface would tell you that South Africa has a long way to go.  So it's natural that race is still such a sensitive issue.  The Western World has moved on and forgotten the truth...and probably believed to much in the fairytale Mandela was presenting to the world.

You think Pistorious' servant was being dutiful to him like a slave to a cotton plantation owner? Or that he was paid to keep quiet?

I believe neither as I believe a fully functioning legal system should have made either excuse redundant.  A man who was in the same building on the night, in a building where shouts and gunfire woke neighbours, should have been forced into court to answer questions about the night.  But the fact that neither the Prosecution nor the Defence seemed interested in him suggests other kinds of social cover-ups were keeping him off the stand.  Not for a second do I believe the excuse that he was asleep???? (I seem to recall such an idea put forward) is remotely a good enough one to keep him out of that courtroom.

The judge was an African lady of an impeccable reputation. The prosecution too were very keen to have a guilty verdict especially given they went after him over 2 years to secure a murder conviction from a previous Manslaughter type one originally cast. As for the defence, if they thought he was an alibi they would have used him but I imagine they probably saw him as more dangerous than being worth the while... i.e. he is found to be inconsistent/lying.

I don't see why his race has any factor in it. He was probably paid off

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 25 Apr 2016, 1:21 pm

Italy would be good.

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