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2023 (expanded) Rugby World Cup for South Africa

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Post by fa0019 Fri 22 Apr 2016, 3:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

doctor_grey wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
SecretFly wrote:JFK left a final directive just weeks before he was assassinated that impelled the CIA to stop at all cost South Africa having more than one hosting of a World Cup per 20 year period.

The CIA, feeling guilty about Oswald and all, are trying to keep to the promise.... for old time's sake.

That's the only connection I can find between JFK and this thread...from reading 700 autobiographical books by Kennedy's Women.
I have the same abridged version of JFK and his women, too.  I read the same thing.  Camelot (the JFK presidency) strictly prohibited SA from hosting more than one RWC.  Said  it would endanger world security.  I thought I read in the Snowdon leaks the CIA is keeping Zuma in charge because no one in his right mind would put a major competition in a country wohch woul elect him.  It is all a plot hatched over 40 years ago.

The final part makes more sense then him simply appealing to the electorate.
I always thought it was the Mafia who got him elected.  So the mafia was his electorate, no?  Just like FIFA.

standard policy of slandering your rivals as witches and getting lookalikes to feature in grainy video stings with prostitutes.

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Post by Sin é Tue 31 May 2016, 4:56 pm

fa0019 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
fa0019 wrote:You say SARU spin... but he started all games for the Bulls in the 2012 season, his breakthrough season. What else can a guy expect? That is a direct quote from his club coach Ludeke not SARU.

It was HM who wanted to turn him into a hooker, not the Bulls. Changing position was the problem, which is what he would have had to do if he wanted to make the Senior Boks.

quite a premature assertion given he was in his 1st season with his club so could hardly expect a bok call up given backrow is SA's mainstay position and also Meyer has picked many players smaller or equal sized to him.... as in Kolisi, Brussow, Carr, Louw, Botha, Coetzee in that position at the time and after his decision to move to Ireland.

Not saying the conversation didn't happen, maybe it did, it probably did but I reckon it was more of a talent issue that many players get in SA through their development. Outside of super star once in generation players like Schalk Burger, flankers sized about 6'1-6'3 may have question marks on them over suitability for elite rugby... people like the 6'5 blindside, NZ, ENG, AUS, FRA, IRE... they have all done it with regular occurrence.
They'll say, is he a near centre speed fetcher like Hooper... no, ok. Does he have the game to play no.8? Questionable, ok... so blindside it is. I bet that conversation happens to almost every young flanker in pro rugby of medium size... i.e. is there a better position for you?

This is his version of what happened.

When I press him on it he prefers not to mention names but speaks of a situation with somebody from the very top brass of the Springboks set-up at the time.

He says: “Yeah I remember the guy we're talking about. It got to the stage where I had to fly my dad up to sit down with him and my dad told him straight off: ‘you're pushing him too hard to change position and he's thinking of quitting rugby.’

“It came down to me and my dad just saying that I like farming equally or even more than I like rugby so there's a great opportunity for me to go back and just farm, and you could see in his eyes that he was shocked.

“That day I think if he said: ‘well that's my final decision,’ and he didn't really say that but it was coming to that point before he said he'd hold back, but I think if he kept pushing I would have packed up and left straight away. It would have been bad especially when I look back now. It was very close.”

By the way, Peter O'Mahony is 6'3" and he is magic in the lineout. The thing about him is that he only needs one lifter so he can get up quick.
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Post by fa0019 Tue 31 May 2016, 5:03 pm

Sin é wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
fa0019 wrote:You say SARU spin... but he started all games for the Bulls in the 2012 season, his breakthrough season. What else can a guy expect? That is a direct quote from his club coach Ludeke not SARU.

It was HM who wanted to turn him into a hooker, not the Bulls. Changing position was the problem, which is what he would have had to do if he wanted to make the Senior Boks.

quite a premature assertion given he was in his 1st season with his club so could hardly expect a bok call up given backrow is SA's mainstay position and also Meyer has picked many players smaller or equal sized to him.... as in Kolisi, Brussow, Carr, Louw, Botha, Coetzee in that position at the time and after his decision to move to Ireland.

Not saying the conversation didn't happen, maybe it did, it probably did but I reckon it was more of a talent issue that many players get in SA through their development. Outside of super star once in generation players like Schalk Burger, flankers sized about 6'1-6'3 may have question marks on them over suitability for elite rugby... people like the 6'5 blindside, NZ, ENG, AUS, FRA, IRE... they have all done it with regular occurrence.
They'll say, is he a near centre speed fetcher like Hooper... no, ok. Does he have the game to play no.8? Questionable, ok... so blindside it is. I bet that conversation happens to almost every young flanker in pro rugby of medium size... i.e. is there a better position for you?

This is his version of what happened.

When I press him on it he prefers not to mention names but speaks of a situation with somebody from the very top brass of the Springboks set-up at the time.

He says: “Yeah I remember the guy we're talking about. It got to the stage where I had to fly my dad up to sit down with him and my dad told him straight off: ‘you're pushing him too hard to change position and he's thinking of quitting rugby.’

“It came down to me and my dad just saying that I like farming equally or even more than I like rugby so there's a great opportunity for me to go back and just farm, and you could see in his eyes that he was shocked.

“That day I think if he said: ‘well that's my final decision,’ and he didn't really say that but it was coming to that point before he said he'd hold back, but I think if he kept pushing I would have packed up and left straight away. It would have been bad especially when I look back now. It was very close.”

By the way, Peter O'Mahony is 6'3" and he is magic in the lineout. The thing about him is that he only needs one lifter so he can get up quick.

Faletau is decent too. Being light, having strong hands can make you a good option I agree and you don't need to be massive.

Well if thats what he says was said I don't know. I just don't buy it thats all which I assume is just you and I looking at the same info and coming to a perfectly different opinion? OK

People in Ireland would like to take him for his word.... people in SA see him being a 1st choice bull, in first season and his club coach not wanting him to leave and being told he'll stay if they match contract offer. They also see same sized players get capped. I don't know maybe Meyer was keen and as I say he's liked his project hooker players before (as in T. Youngs... must to Englands dismay!!!)

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Post by Mr Fishpaste Tue 31 May 2016, 5:55 pm

Rowanbi wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:Your only evidence is that not as many Africans get test honours as whites do.

Yes, that and the comments of South African government officials.

So your word is based upon that of corrupt officials who become dollar billionaires whilst getting paid modest middle class salaries. Strong evidence indeed.

My word? You mean my point of view, which is based upon both an ongoing white domination of South African first class teams and the South African government's stance that discrimination continues. If so, the answer is yes. We can agree to disagree, but that is my point of view, yes. Btw, I don't trust any government, and there are worse ones than South Africa's - including those whose armies kill millions for oil, brutal dictatorships and Israel's apartheid regime.

As I've said before: it is true that the Springboks (and the Proteas) are not demographically representative. But this, in my opinion, is the result of the education system, and therefore not SARU's fault. I'd say that the proportion of black players in professional rugby in SA is more-or-less representative of the proportion of black pupils at the 40 or so elite high schools from which come 99% of professional rugby (and cricket) players in SA. So government-enforced quota's, and making a lack of transformation SARU's fault, is really just the government passing the buck, because it's too incompetent to do anything itself.

And as for anything the government says about white discrimination - the SA minister of Foreign Affairs, in a recent Al Jazeera interview, when asked about the cause, and the solution, of the recent brawls in Parliament (between the EFF and the ANC , two black parties), responded that: it's because white people are rich and black people are poor (???) When asked about the threats of a coup by opposition MP Julius Malema, she responded: white people never had to carry water on their heads and so don't have a dent in their heads (???)...so you see just mentioning 'white people' (even if what is said makes absolutely no sense) is sufficient justification or excuse for any action according to the Government....

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Post by Rowanbi Tue 31 May 2016, 10:30 pm

From the Irish Times:


"Although black representation at under-age and amateur level has increased significantly over the past 22 years, and better reflect the nation’s ethnic make-up, professional rugby continues to be predominately white.

Key pillars

However, the SARU’s adoption of its new strategic transformation plan last year shows there is a new attempt to change this situation. The plan has demographic representation and access to the game as two of six key pillars.

At its launch in early 2015, SARU chief Jurie Roux emphasised the transformation plan was not a quota system that would be forced on professional teams, but rather a road map for them to help achieve representation targets.

Yet despite the fanfare and promises, little has changed so far. Indeed, it has been reported that SARU is due to deliver a progress report around this failure to the strangely named, Eminent Persons Group, the authors of transformation guidelines in sporting codes.

In the document, they are expected to explain why former Springbok coach Heneke Meyer failed to field the agreed minimum number of black players in all but one of his team’s 11 Tests last year. As an incremental way to meet SARU’s 2019 transformation targets, Meyer was supposed to field seven black players in each match-day squad of 23.

Shortly before the Rugby World Cup in England, a number of black and coloured players vying for places in the Springbok squad had approached union federation Cosatu to air their grievances in relation to this, says its Western Cape regional secretary Tony Ehrenreich.

“The squad players felt they were being treated unfairly in a number of ways. For instance, they weren’t getting enough game time in their Super 15 teams, or on the national team,” recalls Ehrenreich.

“When potential opportunities were coming up through injury, the coaches continued to select white players, even playing them out of position, rather than selecting black players. Furthermore, they believed the more lucrative contracts were going to white players.”

Rugby analyst and blogger Shaun Lilford agrees that Meyer’s team selections were questionable, as there were a number of black players excelling in their Super 15 teams who failed to get opportunities in Springbok match-day squads.

“You had guys like Lional Mapoe and Howard Mnisi, who both play centre for the Lions and were on fire, and they were not getting a look-in. I was expecting a lot more black players to come through last year, but it didn’t happen,” he says.

Others such as Elton Jantjies, Juan de Jongh, Cheslin Kolbe, Scarra Ntubeni, Oupa Mohoje and Nizaam Carr also got little chance to shine ahead of the World Cup despite preforming well for their clubs.

Being a World Cup year, it seems players’ frustrations were left unattended for the sake of team unity ahead of the competition, but in November sports minister Fikile Mbalula was clear about what would happen if the Springboks failed to meet future transformation targets. “We will deregister the team, withdraw national colours, and withdraw national funding,” he warned.

While SARU insists Coetzee is 100 per cent behind the transformation targets, to a large degree the former Stormers coach is reliant on the professional clubs giving their black players enough game time if he is to transform the squad while staying competitive.

Systemic racism

Furthermore, while these franchise teams are fielding some black players, they are failing to contract enough from the under-age levels to meet their own transformation targets.This further reduces Coetzee’s options.

Media reports say that on the first Saturday of April there were just 38 players of colour in the match-day 23 of the six professional franchises. That number needs to rise to 69 out of 138 to meet the 50 per cent target.

Ehrenreich believes the lack of transformation to date stems from both individual and systemic racism, and for the transformation plan to work, its enforcement by an independent body is needed.

“When it comes to the franchises there is a weakness there in terms of oversight to ensure they comply with transformation. And in this regard the team’s commercial sponsors should play a role,” he insists.

Lilford is also unsure if Coetzee is the right man to oversee the implementation of the transformation agenda.

Lilford sees him as an old-style rugby coach who values players who have proved themselves rather than one who will try untested talent.

“I think Springbok rugby is going to be in a confusing space over the short term. But if the new coach is going to bring in untested black players, then the best time to do it is in the first year of his tenure and against touring sides when the stakes or not as high,” he says.

Coetzee has no choice but to rebuild the national team following the retirement of Victor Matfield, Jean de Villiers and Fourie du Preez. So maybe opportunity is knocking more loudly than ever before for an Irish rugby team that has never won a Test in South Africa."


https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/south-african-rugby-still-a-black-and-white-issue-1.2608188
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Tue 31 May 2016, 10:44 pm

Rowanbi wrote:From the Irish Times:


"Although black representation at under-age and amateur level has increased significantly over the past 22 years, and better reflect the nation’s ethnic make-up, professional rugby continues to be predominately white.

Key pillars

However, the SARU’s adoption of its new strategic transformation plan last year shows there is a new attempt to change this situation. The plan has demographic representation and access to the game as two of six key pillars.

At its launch in early 2015, SARU chief Jurie Roux emphasised the transformation plan was not a quota system that would be forced on professional teams, but rather a road map for them to help achieve representation targets.

Yet despite the fanfare and promises, little has changed so far. Indeed, it has been reported that SARU is due to deliver a progress report around this failure to the strangely named, Eminent Persons Group, the authors of transformation guidelines in sporting codes.

In the document, they are expected to explain why former Springbok coach Heneke Meyer failed to field the agreed minimum number of black players in all but one of his team’s 11 Tests last year. As an incremental way to meet SARU’s 2019 transformation targets, Meyer was supposed to field seven black players in each match-day squad of 23.

Shortly before the Rugby World Cup in England, a number of black and coloured players vying for places in the Springbok squad had approached union federation Cosatu to air their grievances in relation to this, says its Western Cape regional secretary Tony Ehrenreich.

“The squad players felt they were being treated unfairly in a number of ways. For instance, they weren’t getting enough game time in their Super 15 teams, or on the national team,” recalls Ehrenreich.

“When potential opportunities were coming up through injury, the coaches continued to select white players, even playing them out of position, rather than selecting black players. Furthermore, they believed the more lucrative contracts were going to white players.”

Rugby analyst and blogger Shaun Lilford agrees that Meyer’s team selections were questionable, as there were a number of black players excelling in their Super 15 teams who failed to get opportunities in Springbok match-day squads.

“You had guys like Lional Mapoe and Howard Mnisi, who both play centre for the Lions and were on fire, and they were not getting a look-in. I was expecting a lot more black players to come through last year, but it didn’t happen,” he says.

Others such as Elton Jantjies, Juan de Jongh, Cheslin Kolbe, Scarra Ntubeni, Oupa Mohoje and Nizaam Carr also got little chance to shine ahead of the World Cup despite preforming well for their clubs.

Being a World Cup year, it seems players’ frustrations were left unattended for the sake of team unity ahead of the competition, but in November sports minister Fikile Mbalula was clear about what would happen if the Springboks failed to meet future transformation targets. “We will deregister the team, withdraw national colours, and withdraw national funding,” he warned.

While SARU insists Coetzee is 100 per cent behind the transformation targets, to a large degree the former Stormers coach is reliant on the professional clubs giving their black players enough game time if he is to transform the squad while staying competitive.

Systemic racism

Furthermore, while these franchise teams are fielding some black players, they are failing to contract enough from the under-age levels to meet their own transformation targets.This further reduces Coetzee’s options.

Media reports say that on the first Saturday of April there were just 38 players of colour in the match-day 23 of the six professional franchises. That number needs to rise to 69 out of 138 to meet the 50 per cent target.

Ehrenreich believes the lack of transformation to date stems from both individual and systemic racism, and for the transformation plan to work, its enforcement by an independent body is needed.

“When it comes to the franchises there is a weakness there in terms of oversight to ensure they comply with transformation. And in this regard the team’s commercial sponsors should play a role,” he insists.

Lilford is also unsure if Coetzee is the right man to oversee the implementation of the transformation agenda.

Lilford sees him as an old-style rugby coach who values players who have proved themselves rather than one who will try untested talent.

“I think Springbok rugby is going to be in a confusing space over the short term. But if the new coach is going to bring in untested black players, then the best time to do it is in the first year of his tenure and against touring sides when the stakes or not as high,” he says.

Coetzee has no choice but to rebuild the national team following the retirement of Victor Matfield, Jean de Villiers and Fourie du Preez. So maybe opportunity is knocking more loudly than ever before for an Irish rugby team that has never won a Test in South Africa."


https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/south-african-rugby-still-a-black-and-white-issue-1.2608188
picard  Just when you think the Irish times has sunk to an all time low they bring out BS like this. The fact that an irish paper can throw out rubbish like this confirms to me there is a more cynical agenda behind all this.
It's amazing how someone can say they oppose the ANC but yet think they have the peoples best interests at heart in a topic like this. How can you not see the problems with this? it's staring you right in the face!

The best players should be selected end of.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Tue 31 May 2016, 10:57 pm

Rowanbi wrote:From the Irish Times:


"Although black representation at under-age and amateur level has increased significantly over the past 22 years, and better reflect the nation’s ethnic make-up, professional rugby continues to be predominately white.

Key pillars

However, the SARU’s adoption of its new strategic transformation plan last year shows there is a new attempt to change this situation. The plan has demographic representation and access to the game as two of six key pillars.

At its launch in early 2015, SARU chief Jurie Roux emphasised the transformation plan was not a quota system that would be forced on professional teams, but rather a road map for them to help achieve representation targets.

Yet despite the fanfare and promises, little has changed so far. Indeed, it has been reported that SARU is due to deliver a progress report around this failure to the strangely named, Eminent Persons Group, the authors of transformation guidelines in sporting codes.

In the document, they are expected to explain why former Springbok coach Heneke Meyer failed to field the agreed minimum number of black players in all but one of his team’s 11 Tests last year. As an incremental way to meet SARU’s 2019 transformation targets, Meyer was supposed to field seven black players in each match-day squad of 23.

Shortly before the Rugby World Cup in England, a number of black and coloured players vying for places in the Springbok squad had approached union federation Cosatu to air their grievances in relation to this, says its Western Cape regional secretary Tony Ehrenreich.

“The squad players felt they were being treated unfairly in a number of ways. For instance, they weren’t getting enough game time in their Super 15 teams, or on the national team,” recalls Ehrenreich.

“When potential opportunities were coming up through injury, the coaches continued to select white players, even playing them out of position, rather than selecting black players. Furthermore, they believed the more lucrative contracts were going to white players.”

Rugby analyst and blogger Shaun Lilford agrees that Meyer’s team selections were questionable, as there were a number of black players excelling in their Super 15 teams who failed to get opportunities in Springbok match-day squads.

“You had guys like Lional Mapoe and Howard Mnisi, who both play centre for the Lions and were on fire, and they were not getting a look-in. I was expecting a lot more black players to come through last year, but it didn’t happen,” he says.

Others such as Elton Jantjies, Juan de Jongh, Cheslin Kolbe, Scarra Ntubeni, Oupa Mohoje and Nizaam Carr also got little chance to shine ahead of the World Cup despite preforming well for their clubs.

Being a World Cup year, it seems players’ frustrations were left unattended for the sake of team unity ahead of the competition, but in November sports minister Fikile Mbalula was clear about what would happen if the Springboks failed to meet future transformation targets. “We will deregister the team, withdraw national colours, and withdraw national funding,” he warned.

While SARU insists Coetzee is 100 per cent behind the transformation targets, to a large degree the former Stormers coach is reliant on the professional clubs giving their black players enough game time if he is to transform the squad while staying competitive.

Systemic racism

Furthermore, while these franchise teams are fielding some black players, they are failing to contract enough from the under-age levels to meet their own transformation targets.This further reduces Coetzee’s options.

Media reports say that on the first Saturday of April there were just 38 players of colour in the match-day 23 of the six professional franchises. That number needs to rise to 69 out of 138 to meet the 50 per cent target.

Ehrenreich believes the lack of transformation to date stems from both individual and systemic racism, and for the transformation plan to work, its enforcement by an independent body is needed.

“When it comes to the franchises there is a weakness there in terms of oversight to ensure they comply with transformation. And in this regard the team’s commercial sponsors should play a role,” he insists.

Lilford is also unsure if Coetzee is the right man to oversee the implementation of the transformation agenda.

Lilford sees him as an old-style rugby coach who values players who have proved themselves rather than one who will try untested talent.

“I think Springbok rugby is going to be in a confusing space over the short term. But if the new coach is going to bring in untested black players, then the best time to do it is in the first year of his tenure and against touring sides when the stakes or not as high,” he says.

Coetzee has no choice but to rebuild the national team following the retirement of Victor Matfield, Jean de Villiers and Fourie du Preez. So maybe opportunity is knocking more loudly than ever before for an Irish rugby team that has never won a Test in South Africa."


https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/south-african-rugby-still-a-black-and-white-issue-1.2608188


Pardon my ignorance but who is this guy Lilford? educate me.

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Post by Rowanbi Tue 31 May 2016, 11:00 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:From the Irish Times:


"Although black representation at under-age and amateur level has increased significantly over the past 22 years, and better reflect the nation’s ethnic make-up, professional rugby continues to be predominately white.

Key pillars

However, the SARU’s adoption of its new strategic transformation plan last year shows there is a new attempt to change this situation. The plan has demographic representation and access to the game as two of six key pillars.

At its launch in early 2015, SARU chief Jurie Roux emphasised the transformation plan was not a quota system that would be forced on professional teams, but rather a road map for them to help achieve representation targets.

Yet despite the fanfare and promises, little has changed so far. Indeed, it has been reported that SARU is due to deliver a progress report around this failure to the strangely named, Eminent Persons Group, the authors of transformation guidelines in sporting codes.

In the document, they are expected to explain why former Springbok coach Heneke Meyer failed to field the agreed minimum number of black players in all but one of his team’s 11 Tests last year. As an incremental way to meet SARU’s 2019 transformation targets, Meyer was supposed to field seven black players in each match-day squad of 23.

Shortly before the Rugby World Cup in England, a number of black and coloured players vying for places in the Springbok squad had approached union federation Cosatu to air their grievances in relation to this, says its Western Cape regional secretary Tony Ehrenreich.

“The squad players felt they were being treated unfairly in a number of ways. For instance, they weren’t getting enough game time in their Super 15 teams, or on the national team,” recalls Ehrenreich.

“When potential opportunities were coming up through injury, the coaches continued to select white players, even playing them out of position, rather than selecting black players. Furthermore, they believed the more lucrative contracts were going to white players.”

Rugby analyst and blogger Shaun Lilford agrees that Meyer’s team selections were questionable, as there were a number of black players excelling in their Super 15 teams who failed to get opportunities in Springbok match-day squads.

“You had guys like Lional Mapoe and Howard Mnisi, who both play centre for the Lions and were on fire, and they were not getting a look-in. I was expecting a lot more black players to come through last year, but it didn’t happen,” he says.

Others such as Elton Jantjies, Juan de Jongh, Cheslin Kolbe, Scarra Ntubeni, Oupa Mohoje and Nizaam Carr also got little chance to shine ahead of the World Cup despite preforming well for their clubs.

Being a World Cup year, it seems players’ frustrations were left unattended for the sake of team unity ahead of the competition, but in November sports minister Fikile Mbalula was clear about what would happen if the Springboks failed to meet future transformation targets. “We will deregister the team, withdraw national colours, and withdraw national funding,” he warned.

While SARU insists Coetzee is 100 per cent behind the transformation targets, to a large degree the former Stormers coach is reliant on the professional clubs giving their black players enough game time if he is to transform the squad while staying competitive.

Systemic racism

Furthermore, while these franchise teams are fielding some black players, they are failing to contract enough from the under-age levels to meet their own transformation targets.This further reduces Coetzee’s options.

Media reports say that on the first Saturday of April there were just 38 players of colour in the match-day 23 of the six professional franchises. That number needs to rise to 69 out of 138 to meet the 50 per cent target.

Ehrenreich believes the lack of transformation to date stems from both individual and systemic racism, and for the transformation plan to work, its enforcement by an independent body is needed.

“When it comes to the franchises there is a weakness there in terms of oversight to ensure they comply with transformation. And in this regard the team’s commercial sponsors should play a role,” he insists.

Lilford is also unsure if Coetzee is the right man to oversee the implementation of the transformation agenda.

Lilford sees him as an old-style rugby coach who values players who have proved themselves rather than one who will try untested talent.

“I think Springbok rugby is going to be in a confusing space over the short term. But if the new coach is going to bring in untested black players, then the best time to do it is in the first year of his tenure and against touring sides when the stakes or not as high,” he says.

Coetzee has no choice but to rebuild the national team following the retirement of Victor Matfield, Jean de Villiers and Fourie du Preez. So maybe opportunity is knocking more loudly than ever before for an Irish rugby team that has never won a Test in South Africa."


https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/south-african-rugby-still-a-black-and-white-issue-1.2608188
picard  Just when you think the Irish times has sunk to an all time low they bring out BS like this. The fact that an irish paper can throw out rubbish like this confirms to me there is a more cynical agenda behind all this.
It's amazing how someone can say they oppose the ANC but yet think they have the peoples best interests at heart in a topic like this. How can you not see the problems with this? it's staring you right in the face!

The best players should be selected end of.

Looks like an excellent article to me thumbsup
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Tue 31 May 2016, 11:07 pm

Rowanbi wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:From the Irish Times:


"Although black representation at under-age and amateur level has increased significantly over the past 22 years, and better reflect the nation’s ethnic make-up, professional rugby continues to be predominately white.

Key pillars

However, the SARU’s adoption of its new strategic transformation plan last year shows there is a new attempt to change this situation. The plan has demographic representation and access to the game as two of six key pillars.

At its launch in early 2015, SARU chief Jurie Roux emphasised the transformation plan was not a quota system that would be forced on professional teams, but rather a road map for them to help achieve representation targets.

Yet despite the fanfare and promises, little has changed so far. Indeed, it has been reported that SARU is due to deliver a progress report around this failure to the strangely named, Eminent Persons Group, the authors of transformation guidelines in sporting codes.

In the document, they are expected to explain why former Springbok coach Heneke Meyer failed to field the agreed minimum number of black players in all but one of his team’s 11 Tests last year. As an incremental way to meet SARU’s 2019 transformation targets, Meyer was supposed to field seven black players in each match-day squad of 23.

Shortly before the Rugby World Cup in England, a number of black and coloured players vying for places in the Springbok squad had approached union federation Cosatu to air their grievances in relation to this, says its Western Cape regional secretary Tony Ehrenreich.

“The squad players felt they were being treated unfairly in a number of ways. For instance, they weren’t getting enough game time in their Super 15 teams, or on the national team,” recalls Ehrenreich.

“When potential opportunities were coming up through injury, the coaches continued to select white players, even playing them out of position, rather than selecting black players. Furthermore, they believed the more lucrative contracts were going to white players.”

Rugby analyst and blogger Shaun Lilford agrees that Meyer’s team selections were questionable, as there were a number of black players excelling in their Super 15 teams who failed to get opportunities in Springbok match-day squads.

“You had guys like Lional Mapoe and Howard Mnisi, who both play centre for the Lions and were on fire, and they were not getting a look-in. I was expecting a lot more black players to come through last year, but it didn’t happen,” he says.

Others such as Elton Jantjies, Juan de Jongh, Cheslin Kolbe, Scarra Ntubeni, Oupa Mohoje and Nizaam Carr also got little chance to shine ahead of the World Cup despite preforming well for their clubs.

Being a World Cup year, it seems players’ frustrations were left unattended for the sake of team unity ahead of the competition, but in November sports minister Fikile Mbalula was clear about what would happen if the Springboks failed to meet future transformation targets. “We will deregister the team, withdraw national colours, and withdraw national funding,” he warned.

While SARU insists Coetzee is 100 per cent behind the transformation targets, to a large degree the former Stormers coach is reliant on the professional clubs giving their black players enough game time if he is to transform the squad while staying competitive.

Systemic racism

Furthermore, while these franchise teams are fielding some black players, they are failing to contract enough from the under-age levels to meet their own transformation targets.This further reduces Coetzee’s options.

Media reports say that on the first Saturday of April there were just 38 players of colour in the match-day 23 of the six professional franchises. That number needs to rise to 69 out of 138 to meet the 50 per cent target.

Ehrenreich believes the lack of transformation to date stems from both individual and systemic racism, and for the transformation plan to work, its enforcement by an independent body is needed.

“When it comes to the franchises there is a weakness there in terms of oversight to ensure they comply with transformation. And in this regard the team’s commercial sponsors should play a role,” he insists.

Lilford is also unsure if Coetzee is the right man to oversee the implementation of the transformation agenda.

Lilford sees him as an old-style rugby coach who values players who have proved themselves rather than one who will try untested talent.

“I think Springbok rugby is going to be in a confusing space over the short term. But if the new coach is going to bring in untested black players, then the best time to do it is in the first year of his tenure and against touring sides when the stakes or not as high,” he says.

Coetzee has no choice but to rebuild the national team following the retirement of Victor Matfield, Jean de Villiers and Fourie du Preez. So maybe opportunity is knocking more loudly than ever before for an Irish rugby team that has never won a Test in South Africa."


https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/south-african-rugby-still-a-black-and-white-issue-1.2608188
picard  Just when you think the Irish times has sunk to an all time low they bring out BS like this. The fact that an irish paper can throw out rubbish like this confirms to me there is a more cynical agenda behind all this.
It's amazing how someone can say they oppose the ANC but yet think they have the peoples best interests at heart in a topic like this. How can you not see the problems with this? it's staring you right in the face!

The best players should be selected end of.

Looks like an excellent article to me thumbsup
I'm sure it does Hug

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Tue 31 May 2016, 11:09 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:From the Irish Times:


"Although black representation at under-age and amateur level has increased significantly over the past 22 years, and better reflect the nation’s ethnic make-up, professional rugby continues to be predominately white.

Key pillars

However, the SARU’s adoption of its new strategic transformation plan last year shows there is a new attempt to change this situation. The plan has demographic representation and access to the game as two of six key pillars.

At its launch in early 2015, SARU chief Jurie Roux emphasised the transformation plan was not a quota system that would be forced on professional teams, but rather a road map for them to help achieve representation targets.

Yet despite the fanfare and promises, little has changed so far. Indeed, it has been reported that SARU is due to deliver a progress report around this failure to the strangely named, Eminent Persons Group, the authors of transformation guidelines in sporting codes.

In the document, they are expected to explain why former Springbok coach Heneke Meyer failed to field the agreed minimum number of black players in all but one of his team’s 11 Tests last year. As an incremental way to meet SARU’s 2019 transformation targets, Meyer was supposed to field seven black players in each match-day squad of 23.

Shortly before the Rugby World Cup in England, a number of black and coloured players vying for places in the Springbok squad had approached union federation Cosatu to air their grievances in relation to this, says its Western Cape regional secretary Tony Ehrenreich.

“The squad players felt they were being treated unfairly in a number of ways. For instance, they weren’t getting enough game time in their Super 15 teams, or on the national team,” recalls Ehrenreich.

“When potential opportunities were coming up through injury, the coaches continued to select white players, even playing them out of position, rather than selecting black players. Furthermore, they believed the more lucrative contracts were going to white players.”

Rugby analyst and blogger Shaun Lilford agrees that Meyer’s team selections were questionable, as there were a number of black players excelling in their Super 15 teams who failed to get opportunities in Springbok match-day squads.

“You had guys like Lional Mapoe and Howard Mnisi, who both play centre for the Lions and were on fire, and they were not getting a look-in. I was expecting a lot more black players to come through last year, but it didn’t happen,” he says.

Others such as Elton Jantjies, Juan de Jongh, Cheslin Kolbe, Scarra Ntubeni, Oupa Mohoje and Nizaam Carr also got little chance to shine ahead of the World Cup despite preforming well for their clubs.

Being a World Cup year, it seems players’ frustrations were left unattended for the sake of team unity ahead of the competition, but in November sports minister Fikile Mbalula was clear about what would happen if the Springboks failed to meet future transformation targets. “We will deregister the team, withdraw national colours, and withdraw national funding,” he warned.

While SARU insists Coetzee is 100 per cent behind the transformation targets, to a large degree the former Stormers coach is reliant on the professional clubs giving their black players enough game time if he is to transform the squad while staying competitive.

Systemic racism

Furthermore, while these franchise teams are fielding some black players, they are failing to contract enough from the under-age levels to meet their own transformation targets.This further reduces Coetzee’s options.

Media reports say that on the first Saturday of April there were just 38 players of colour in the match-day 23 of the six professional franchises. That number needs to rise to 69 out of 138 to meet the 50 per cent target.

Ehrenreich believes the lack of transformation to date stems from both individual and systemic racism, and for the transformation plan to work, its enforcement by an independent body is needed.

“When it comes to the franchises there is a weakness there in terms of oversight to ensure they comply with transformation. And in this regard the team’s commercial sponsors should play a role,” he insists.

Lilford is also unsure if Coetzee is the right man to oversee the implementation of the transformation agenda.

Lilford sees him as an old-style rugby coach who values players who have proved themselves rather than one who will try untested talent.

“I think Springbok rugby is going to be in a confusing space over the short term. But if the new coach is going to bring in untested black players, then the best time to do it is in the first year of his tenure and against touring sides when the stakes or not as high,” he says.

Coetzee has no choice but to rebuild the national team following the retirement of Victor Matfield, Jean de Villiers and Fourie du Preez. So maybe opportunity is knocking more loudly than ever before for an Irish rugby team that has never won a Test in South Africa."


https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/south-african-rugby-still-a-black-and-white-issue-1.2608188


Pardon my ignorance but who is this guy Lilford? educate me.
Does it matter? He's in the mainstream media, therefore his opinion is gospel and we must all conform to his extensive knowledge of this subject and everything else he writes about.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Tue 31 May 2016, 11:20 pm


Sounds to me that he's just another whack job like Rowan.

Perhaps he is Rowan?

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Post by Rowanbi Tue 31 May 2016, 11:59 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:From the Irish Times:


"Although black representation at under-age and amateur level has increased significantly over the past 22 years, and better reflect the nation’s ethnic make-up, professional rugby continues to be predominately white.

Key pillars

However, the SARU’s adoption of its new strategic transformation plan last year shows there is a new attempt to change this situation. The plan has demographic representation and access to the game as two of six key pillars.

At its launch in early 2015, SARU chief Jurie Roux emphasised the transformation plan was not a quota system that would be forced on professional teams, but rather a road map for them to help achieve representation targets.

Yet despite the fanfare and promises, little has changed so far. Indeed, it has been reported that SARU is due to deliver a progress report around this failure to the strangely named, Eminent Persons Group, the authors of transformation guidelines in sporting codes.

In the document, they are expected to explain why former Springbok coach Heneke Meyer failed to field the agreed minimum number of black players in all but one of his team’s 11 Tests last year. As an incremental way to meet SARU’s 2019 transformation targets, Meyer was supposed to field seven black players in each match-day squad of 23.

Shortly before the Rugby World Cup in England, a number of black and coloured players vying for places in the Springbok squad had approached union federation Cosatu to air their grievances in relation to this, says its Western Cape regional secretary Tony Ehrenreich.

“The squad players felt they were being treated unfairly in a number of ways. For instance, they weren’t getting enough game time in their Super 15 teams, or on the national team,” recalls Ehrenreich.

“When potential opportunities were coming up through injury, the coaches continued to select white players, even playing them out of position, rather than selecting black players. Furthermore, they believed the more lucrative contracts were going to white players.”

Rugby analyst and blogger Shaun Lilford agrees that Meyer’s team selections were questionable, as there were a number of black players excelling in their Super 15 teams who failed to get opportunities in Springbok match-day squads.

“You had guys like Lional Mapoe and Howard Mnisi, who both play centre for the Lions and were on fire, and they were not getting a look-in. I was expecting a lot more black players to come through last year, but it didn’t happen,” he says.

Others such as Elton Jantjies, Juan de Jongh, Cheslin Kolbe, Scarra Ntubeni, Oupa Mohoje and Nizaam Carr also got little chance to shine ahead of the World Cup despite preforming well for their clubs.

Being a World Cup year, it seems players’ frustrations were left unattended for the sake of team unity ahead of the competition, but in November sports minister Fikile Mbalula was clear about what would happen if the Springboks failed to meet future transformation targets. “We will deregister the team, withdraw national colours, and withdraw national funding,” he warned.

While SARU insists Coetzee is 100 per cent behind the transformation targets, to a large degree the former Stormers coach is reliant on the professional clubs giving their black players enough game time if he is to transform the squad while staying competitive.

Systemic racism

Furthermore, while these franchise teams are fielding some black players, they are failing to contract enough from the under-age levels to meet their own transformation targets.This further reduces Coetzee’s options.

Media reports say that on the first Saturday of April there were just 38 players of colour in the match-day 23 of the six professional franchises. That number needs to rise to 69 out of 138 to meet the 50 per cent target.

Ehrenreich believes the lack of transformation to date stems from both individual and systemic racism, and for the transformation plan to work, its enforcement by an independent body is needed.

“When it comes to the franchises there is a weakness there in terms of oversight to ensure they comply with transformation. And in this regard the team’s commercial sponsors should play a role,” he insists.

Lilford is also unsure if Coetzee is the right man to oversee the implementation of the transformation agenda.

Lilford sees him as an old-style rugby coach who values players who have proved themselves rather than one who will try untested talent.

“I think Springbok rugby is going to be in a confusing space over the short term. But if the new coach is going to bring in untested black players, then the best time to do it is in the first year of his tenure and against touring sides when the stakes or not as high,” he says.

Coetzee has no choice but to rebuild the national team following the retirement of Victor Matfield, Jean de Villiers and Fourie du Preez. So maybe opportunity is knocking more loudly than ever before for an Irish rugby team that has never won a Test in South Africa."


https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/south-african-rugby-still-a-black-and-white-issue-1.2608188


Pardon my ignorance but who is this guy Lilford? educate me.
Does it matter? He's in the mainstream media, therefore his opinion is gospel and we must all conform to his extensive knowledge of this subject and everything else he writes about.

Shoot the messenger approach won't get you anywhere either warning
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Post by Mr Fishpaste Wed 01 Jun 2016, 7:13 am

Rowanbi wrote:From the Irish Times:


"Although black representation at under-age and amateur level has increased significantly over the past 22 years, and better reflect the nation’s ethnic make-up, professional rugby continues to be predominately white.

Key pillars

However, the SARU’s adoption of its new strategic transformation plan last year shows there is a new attempt to change this situation. The plan has demographic representation and access to the game as two of six key pillars.

At its launch in early 2015, SARU chief Jurie Roux emphasised the transformation plan was not a quota system that would be forced on professional teams, but rather a road map for them to help achieve representation targets.

Yet despite the fanfare and promises, little has changed so far. Indeed, it has been reported that SARU is due to deliver a progress report around this failure to the strangely named, Eminent Persons Group, the authors of transformation guidelines in sporting codes.

In the document, they are expected to explain why former Springbok coach Heneke Meyer failed to field the agreed minimum number of black players in all but one of his team’s 11 Tests last year. As an incremental way to meet SARU’s 2019 transformation targets, Meyer was supposed to field seven black players in each match-day squad of 23.

Shortly before the Rugby World Cup in England, a number of black and coloured players vying for places in the Springbok squad had approached union federation Cosatu to air their grievances in relation to this, says its Western Cape regional secretary Tony Ehrenreich.

“The squad players felt they were being treated unfairly in a number of ways. For instance, they weren’t getting enough game time in their Super 15 teams, or on the national team,” recalls Ehrenreich.

“When potential opportunities were coming up through injury, the coaches continued to select white players, even playing them out of position, rather than selecting black players. Furthermore, they believed the more lucrative contracts were going to white players.”

Rugby analyst and blogger Shaun Lilford agrees that Meyer’s team selections were questionable, as there were a number of black players excelling in their Super 15 teams who failed to get opportunities in Springbok match-day squads.

“You had guys like Lional Mapoe and Howard Mnisi, who both play centre for the Lions and were on fire, and they were not getting a look-in. I was expecting a lot more black players to come through last year, but it didn’t happen,” he says.

Others such as Elton Jantjies, Juan de Jongh, Cheslin Kolbe, Scarra Ntubeni, Oupa Mohoje and Nizaam Carr also got little chance to shine ahead of the World Cup despite preforming well for their clubs.

Being a World Cup year, it seems players’ frustrations were left unattended for the sake of team unity ahead of the competition, but in November sports minister Fikile Mbalula was clear about what would happen if the Springboks failed to meet future transformation targets. “We will deregister the team, withdraw national colours, and withdraw national funding,” he warned.

While SARU insists Coetzee is 100 per cent behind the transformation targets, to a large degree the former Stormers coach is reliant on the professional clubs giving their black players enough game time if he is to transform the squad while staying competitive.

Systemic racism

Furthermore, while these franchise teams are fielding some black players, they are failing to contract enough from the under-age levels to meet their own transformation targets.This further reduces Coetzee’s options.

Media reports say that on the first Saturday of April there were just 38 players of colour in the match-day 23 of the six professional franchises. That number needs to rise to 69 out of 138 to meet the 50 per cent target.

Ehrenreich believes the lack of transformation to date stems from both individual and systemic racism, and for the transformation plan to work, its enforcement by an independent body is needed.

“When it comes to the franchises there is a weakness there in terms of oversight to ensure they comply with transformation. And in this regard the team’s commercial sponsors should play a role,” he insists.

Lilford is also unsure if Coetzee is the right man to oversee the implementation of the transformation agenda.

Lilford sees him as an old-style rugby coach who values players who have proved themselves rather than one who will try untested talent.

“I think Springbok rugby is going to be in a confusing space over the short term. But if the new coach is going to bring in untested black players, then the best time to do it is in the first year of his tenure and against touring sides when the stakes or not as high,” he says.

Coetzee has no choice but to rebuild the national team following the retirement of Victor Matfield, Jean de Villiers and Fourie du Preez. So maybe opportunity is knocking more loudly than ever before for an Irish rugby team that has never won a Test in South Africa."


https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/south-african-rugby-still-a-black-and-white-issue-1.2608188

The problem with this article is that two thirds of it (or more) is based on interviews with Tony Ehrenreich who is an ANC lacky and a shameless liar and sprouts nothing but repurposed bovine waste product. He was unable to substantiate any of his claims, journalists were unable to find any black player with complaints, and the players union was also unable to find any black player with any complaints...what Rowanbi doesn't seem to grasp is the extent to which the ANC government will promote and perpetuate lies, misinformation, and pure BS to score political points, and when anyone raises concerns with genuine problems in SA, the government tries to deflect attention from it by raising 'transformation in sports'...in fact I'd go so far as to say that transformation in rugby is not really a problem at all for most Black South Africans: they're more concerned about unemployment, high food prices, no service delivery, no housing, high crime, shockingly bad education, the fact that Indian businessmen decide who is in the cabinet, the fact that the President has been found to be in breech of the constitution...and when faced with all these issues the Government's response is "oh, but look at all the whites in the rugby team!"...

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 01 Jun 2016, 7:52 am

Mr Fishpaste wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:From the Irish Times:


"Although black representation at under-age and amateur level has increased significantly over the past 22 years, and better reflect the nation’s ethnic make-up, professional rugby continues to be predominately white.

Key pillars

However, the SARU’s adoption of its new strategic transformation plan last year shows there is a new attempt to change this situation. The plan has demographic representation and access to the game as two of six key pillars.

At its launch in early 2015, SARU chief Jurie Roux emphasised the transformation plan was not a quota system that would be forced on professional teams, but rather a road map for them to help achieve representation targets.

Yet despite the fanfare and promises, little has changed so far. Indeed, it has been reported that SARU is due to deliver a progress report around this failure to the strangely named, Eminent Persons Group, the authors of transformation guidelines in sporting codes.

In the document, they are expected to explain why former Springbok coach Heneke Meyer failed to field the agreed minimum number of black players in all but one of his team’s 11 Tests last year. As an incremental way to meet SARU’s 2019 transformation targets, Meyer was supposed to field seven black players in each match-day squad of 23.

Shortly before the Rugby World Cup in England, a number of black and coloured players vying for places in the Springbok squad had approached union federation Cosatu to air their grievances in relation to this, says its Western Cape regional secretary Tony Ehrenreich.

“The squad players felt they were being treated unfairly in a number of ways. For instance, they weren’t getting enough game time in their Super 15 teams, or on the national team,” recalls Ehrenreich.

“When potential opportunities were coming up through injury, the coaches continued to select white players, even playing them out of position, rather than selecting black players. Furthermore, they believed the more lucrative contracts were going to white players.”

Rugby analyst and blogger Shaun Lilford agrees that Meyer’s team selections were questionable, as there were a number of black players excelling in their Super 15 teams who failed to get opportunities in Springbok match-day squads.

“You had guys like Lional Mapoe and Howard Mnisi, who both play centre for the Lions and were on fire, and they were not getting a look-in. I was expecting a lot more black players to come through last year, but it didn’t happen,” he says.

Others such as Elton Jantjies, Juan de Jongh, Cheslin Kolbe, Scarra Ntubeni, Oupa Mohoje and Nizaam Carr also got little chance to shine ahead of the World Cup despite preforming well for their clubs.

Being a World Cup year, it seems players’ frustrations were left unattended for the sake of team unity ahead of the competition, but in November sports minister Fikile Mbalula was clear about what would happen if the Springboks failed to meet future transformation targets. “We will deregister the team, withdraw national colours, and withdraw national funding,” he warned.

While SARU insists Coetzee is 100 per cent behind the transformation targets, to a large degree the former Stormers coach is reliant on the professional clubs giving their black players enough game time if he is to transform the squad while staying competitive.

Systemic racism

Furthermore, while these franchise teams are fielding some black players, they are failing to contract enough from the under-age levels to meet their own transformation targets.This further reduces Coetzee’s options.

Media reports say that on the first Saturday of April there were just 38 players of colour in the match-day 23 of the six professional franchises. That number needs to rise to 69 out of 138 to meet the 50 per cent target.

Ehrenreich believes the lack of transformation to date stems from both individual and systemic racism, and for the transformation plan to work, its enforcement by an independent body is needed.

“When it comes to the franchises there is a weakness there in terms of oversight to ensure they comply with transformation. And in this regard the team’s commercial sponsors should play a role,” he insists.

Lilford is also unsure if Coetzee is the right man to oversee the implementation of the transformation agenda.

Lilford sees him as an old-style rugby coach who values players who have proved themselves rather than one who will try untested talent.

“I think Springbok rugby is going to be in a confusing space over the short term. But if the new coach is going to bring in untested black players, then the best time to do it is in the first year of his tenure and against touring sides when the stakes or not as high,” he says.

Coetzee has no choice but to rebuild the national team following the retirement of Victor Matfield, Jean de Villiers and Fourie du Preez. So maybe opportunity is knocking more loudly than ever before for an Irish rugby team that has never won a Test in South Africa."


https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/south-african-rugby-still-a-black-and-white-issue-1.2608188

The problem with this article is that two thirds of it (or more) is based on interviews with Tony Ehrenreich who is an ANC lacky and a shameless liar and sprouts nothing but repurposed bovine waste product. He was unable to substantiate any of his claims, journalists were unable to find any black player with complaints, and the players union was also unable to find any black player with any complaints...what Rowanbi doesn't seem to grasp is the extent to which the ANC government will promote and perpetuate lies, misinformation, and pure BS to score political points, and when anyone raises concerns with genuine problems in SA, the government tries to deflect attention from it by raising 'transformation in sports'...in fact I'd go so far as to say that transformation in rugby is not really a problem at all for most Black South Africans: they're more concerned about unemployment, high food prices, no service delivery, no housing, high crime, shockingly bad education, the fact that Indian businessmen decide who is in the cabinet, the fact that the President has been found to be in breech of the constitution...and when faced with all these issues the Government's response is "oh, but look at all the whites in the rugby team!"...

I think the article itself references complains from non-white players. The ANC does not control the Irish Times. Suggesting the non-white community have bigger fish to fry is simple avoiding the issue and attempting to sweep it under the carpet. The government has every right to express concern over lack of integration within a sport which was the domain of the white minority during Apartheid. There's an awful lot of denialism going on here, which is perhaps indicative of the type of obstinacy they are up against... devil
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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 9:32 am

Rowanbi

First of all... Irish Times.
Secondly.... main source is Cosatu, ultra left firebrands who literally believe that the boks should be forever representative of the ethnic population i.e. 12 Africans, 2 coloured, 1 white... totally against merit and should be enforced now.

You pick out sources without realising that they're completely discredited and why... because you have no backing, no understanding.

Others such as Elton Jantjies, Juan de Jongh, Cheslin Kolbe, Scarra Ntubeni, Oupa Mohoje and Nizaam Carr also got little chance to shine ahead of the World Cup despite preforming well for their clubs.


Ok so lets go

Elton Jantjies - flyhalf.  5'9. 80kgs. Adequate kicking game, no more than range beyond the 10m line at sea level. He moved to Stormers and struggled big time.. then coached by Coetzee. Coetzee dropped him and he left soon after. Decent running game but still for a mighty mouse type player his kicking needs to be on the button to be seen as test worthy. Its at best satisfactory. Done reasonably well this season but last season he was bad in SR and you can't say ok he struggled in SR, the premier competition but look how good he looks in Currie Cup where all the best players sit out. Compare him to Pat Lambie. Well Lambie isn't the very best place kicking wise but he's very good still. His range is Halfpenny type and his defence is good enough that Peter De Villiers played him as 15 in the 2011 RWC. Defence is never an issue for him, It is for Jantjies.

Juan De Jongh - centre. 5'9, 85kgs. Quick, very good linebreaker... but very small for a centre. He has no defence and gets bounced a lot.... why because he can't tackle big centres/big flankers running down his channel. I love watching him attack the line but unlike small guys like Robinson & Williams his defence is no where near good enough and he doesn't have the touchline as a natural defender.

Cheslin Kolbe - winger. 5'7 70kg. Yep.... 5'7 and 70kgs. Is he quick... very. Is he Robinson like in attack.... yes but a few notches down. Suitable for test rugby... he'd be murdered. It would be like high school typical first XV winger vs. George North (i.e. someone will be staying overnight in hospital).

Scarra Ntubeni - Hooker. 5'9 100kg. About 4 inches smaller, about 10kg lighter then most test hookers. His lineout is not good. Similar to Tom Youngs in limitation and where the Stormers have suffered this season as he cannot hit his men. So much so he's been dropped.

Teboho Mohoje - blindside flanker. 6'4, 107kg. Size wise he is the exception. He ticks all boxes. The problem well you can't wish talent on someone. He's slow, he's lethargic. Meyer persisted with him for a whole year in 2015 trying to get him suited to test rugby but he failed miserably. Hasn't even featured in Coetzee squad.

Nizaam Carr - No8. 6'0 (in shoes), 100kg. Can anyone remember a no.8 so small? Seriously? He is actually an ok ball carrier and probably good enough for club rugby just about... but seriously? Springbok? He can't lift, is another mighty mouse.


So these were the players listed.... did you see a pattern emerging?????

Only one of them fit the bill size wise for their position for tier 1 test averages... only 1 and these were players highlighted by you and your source, not cherry picked by me. The others aren't just 1 inch too small they're 3-5 inches too small, 20kgs too light.

Size isn't everything you may say.... get a life. In rugby their are exceptions from Carlos Spencer, Jason Robinson, Shane Williams, Gio Aplon, Heinrich Brussow.... but these are exceptions, real exceptional once in a generation players who importantly don't show their lack of size to be an issue. All those listed above do. They are like every other flanker at 6ft. Every other centre at 5'9, every other winger at 5'7... bar once in a generation types, surplus to requirements... and yet this lot are all meant to be exceptions, all at the same time.... To anyone with a rugby brain its frankly laughable and it shows you know nothing of SA rugby or rugby in general.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 01 Jun 2016, 9:43 am

Isn't it pointed that as this debate continues on the meaning of the 'race' card, and arguments go right and left on the veracity of a quota system that everyone outside South Africa seems to have an opinion on but only blacks/coloureds actually lived under (ie - if you were black your quota was officially limited in potency Wink )

- isn't it pointed that as the debate continues - and in it I've heard mentioned quite a number of times that South African blacks/coloureds simply don't possess the right dimensions for serious International rugby Shocked   - that Munster player CJ Stander goes on record only a day or two ago claiming he was virtually pushed out of South Africa because he was told in no uncertain terms that he was too small to ever get into the South African team except as a potential hooker.  Stander is 6'2 1/2".

So if there is racial stereotyping going on in South African rugby, it seems it's not limited to making excuses about why blacks/coloureds can't make the grade.  The excuse seems to extend to whites too.  

Perhaps the real version of racial stereotyping that potentially exists is even more dangerous a philosophy than the 'black v white' one debated here?
Perhaps there is a lingering philosophy that man should be seen to conform to particular physical ideals - ideals of height, eye-colour, hair colour and racial 'purity'? 
Maybe South African rugby is overly concerned with image?

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 01 Jun 2016, 9:53 am

I've heard mentioned quite a number of times that South African blacks/coloureds simply don't possess the right dimensions for serious International rugby

Exactly. We don't hear Polynesians making these types of commments about white players. & even though I wouldn't deny that Polynesians are physically more suited to the game than whites, whites nonetheless make up the majority of the players in the All Blacks. That's because they comprise 70% of the population - I hear you cry. Well, non-whites comprise over 90% of the South African population. Meanwhile, around the world we can find any number of outstanding white players in every position.
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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 10:00 am

SecretFly wrote:Isn't it pointed that as this debate continues on the meaning of the 'race' card, and arguments go right and left on the veracity of a quota system that everyone outside South Africa seems to have an opinion on but only blacks/coloureds actually lived under (ie - if you were black your quota was officially limited in potency Wink )

- isn't it pointed that as the debate continues - and in it I've heard mentioned quite a number of times that South African blacks/coloureds simply don't possess the right dimensions for serious International rugby Shocked   - that Munster player CJ Stander goes on record only a day or two ago claiming he was virtually pushed out of South Africa because he was told in no uncertain terms that he was too small to ever get into the South African team except as a potential hooker.  Stander is 6'2 1/2".

So if there is racial stereotyping going on in South African rugby, it seems it's not limited to making excuses about why blacks/coloureds can't make the grade.  The excuse seems to extend to whites too.  

Perhaps the real version of racial stereotyping that potentially exists is even more dangerous a philosophy than the 'black v white' one debated here?
Perhaps there is a lingering philosophy that man should be seen to conform to particular physical ideals - ideals of height, eye-colour, hair colour and racial 'purity'? 
Maybe South African rugby is overly concerned with image?

Fly

That whole size thing with Stander is over played. I've sourced many quotes yesterday from his coach in SA at the time, Frans Ludeke, he was starting for the bulls every game in 2012, He didn't want him to leave, he said he was earmarked for the bok development squad (not bad in first season) and that he told the bulls, match my offer and I'll stay. He what 189cm so a sniff within 6'3 and 115kgs. Meyer capped Kolisi 6'1, Carr 6'0, Louw 6'2, Brussow 5'11, Coetzee 6'3, Alberts 6'3, Arno Botha 6'3.... in other words, fine he stands by it but it goes against Meyer's track record.

He even says "I was told I'd get 50 caps at hooker but maybe 5 at flank... well thats still 5" i.e. he'd be probably selected but in truth competition is tight in SA at flank (probably their one mainstay position). Arno Botha was superior to Stander IMO. Same age, same club same breakthrough season, same size but Botha is a far better tackler.... Botha has 2 caps. Should have a dozen but its probably the same out of merit that Stander would have. Josh Strauss never got capped by the boks, WP Nel, Richardt Strauss barely got on the radar, Mouritz Botha wasn't even close to being on it. Its competitive

In essence its not a race thing... Yes, Africans and cape coloureds are much shorter on average. Its a generalisation, not always true but almost always true. Those listed by apologists are too small. We want adequate players to come through... but not at the expense of the game and the quality... and not in expense of far better players available.... white, black, coloured, Indian, Chinese. Many Indians are tall but many in SA are Southern Indian not Northern Indian (i.e. Sikhs) and they're shorter than those in the UK.

Meyer worked heavily with Toboho Mahoje in 2015.... he tried for an entire season but he was simply not up to the task. Why because at least he fit the bill size wise. Coetzee dropped Jantjies himself from the Stormers because he wasn't good enough. Coaches are doing their best... its an inconvenient truth for some... but its true regardless. Listen to every SA based poster here and they say the same thing, white and non-white. Its a fact.

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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 10:06 am

Rowanbi wrote: I've heard mentioned quite a number of times that South African blacks/coloureds simply don't possess the right dimensions for serious International rugby

Exactly. We don't hear Polynesians making these types of commments about white players. & even though I wouldn't deny that Polynesians are physically more suited to the game than whites, whites nonetheless make up the majority of the players in the All Blacks. That's because they comprise 70% of the population - I hear you cry. Well, non-whites comprise over 90% of the South African population. Meanwhile, around the world we can find any number of outstanding white players in every position.

Maori & PI persons make up 21.5% of people in New Zealand from wikipedia. There were 10 players of Maori & PI ancestry who played the RWC final in 2015 (43%).

So 43% of the NZ players came from 21.5% of the population.

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 01 Jun 2016, 10:08 am

So 43% of the NZ players came from 21.5% of the population.

Whereas 40% of the SA players come from 91% of the population Rolling Eyes

& 60% come from 9% of the population devil
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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 10:12 am

Also in the RWC 2015, Australia fielded 8 players of either Aborigine or PI ancestry or 35% of the team. Coming from <5% of the population.

No one denies they are well suited to rugby and the proof shows they significantly over represent both in AUS and in NZ.

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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 10:14 am

Rowanbi wrote:So 43% of the NZ players came from 21.5% of the population.

Whereas 40% of the SA players come from 91% of the population Rolling Eyes

& 60% come from 9% of the population devil

apples and oranges. The rules don't apply because you're comparing 2 different things.

PI players vs. mainly British persons in AUS.

Africans vs. mainly Dutch persons in SA.

Sort of shows your understanding.

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 01 Jun 2016, 10:17 am

Who denied they were well-suited to rugby? Also, Polynesians would certainly comprise more than 21/5% of the rugby-playing population. Probably between 30 & 40%.

But 60% of the Springboks come from just 9% of the population Shocked mad nope . If that doesn't indicate a lack of effective integration to you, then you're missing something, quite clearly...
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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 10:24 am

Rowanbi wrote:Who denied they were well-suited to rugby? Also, Polynesians would certainly comprise more than 21/5% of the rugby-playing population. Probably between 30 & 40%.

But 60% of the Springboks come from just 9% of the population Shocked  mad  nope . If that doesn't indicate a lack of effective integration to you, then you're missing something, quite clearly...

You said the PI players were under represented in NZ rugby (and actually subtly accused me of racism suggesting I think its ok because they're white which is not only crass but wrong) I clearly showed you to be wrong as their representatives were double that of their national demographic. You don't even know your facts about your own country which many have said so many times before.

I also showed they made up over a 1/3 of the AUS players even though they represented less than 5% of the population i.e. 7 times their demographic.

In SA you quoted all these players which we should be up in arms about

a 5'9 flyhalf, a 5'9 centre, a 5'7 winger, a 5'9 hooker, a 6'4 flank (the exception) and a 6'0 no.8.

You couldn't retort because you have no answer, no knowledge.

You accused 7.5 of racism, you've accused me of the same. You have no backing and frankly have both a poor understanding of the situation, of statistics, of rugby. Nothing more than a troll.

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Post by Gooseberry Wed 01 Jun 2016, 10:27 am

So we shouldnt hold the world cup in South Africa because its got a corrupt governement yeah?

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Post by Mr Fishpaste Wed 01 Jun 2016, 10:36 am

Rowanbi wrote:

I think the article itself references complains from non-white players. The ANC does not control the Irish Times. Suggesting the non-white community have bigger fish to fry is simple avoiding the issue and attempting to sweep it under the carpet. The government has every right to express concern over lack of integration within a sport which was the domain of the white minority during Apartheid. There's an awful lot of denialism going on here, which is perhaps indicative of the type of obstinacy they are up against... devil

The article doesn't reference any actual complaints from black players! It just quotes Ehrenreich's claim, which neither he, nor anybody else, has been able to substantiate (and several black players have refuted it!)

As for sweeping things under the carpet...As I'm trying to say: rugby is the carpet that everything else gets swept under...and if rugby transformation is not an issue for South African people (a recent poll by the South African Institute of Race Relations found that 75% of black people objected to the imposition of quotas in rugby!) then the government is guilty of deliberately creating a mountain out of a molehill in an attempt to obscure the other mountains that really are an issue...it not denialism, it's calling the BS for what it is.


Last edited by Mr Fishpaste on Wed 01 Jun 2016, 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 10:37 am

Rowanbi

Oh btw, Asians make up 9.2% of NZ population. Can you name a single Asian kiwi who played rugby professionally?

England fielded 3 in the 90s, all 3 received British Lions caps, why aren't they coming through in NZ?

By your argument their should be 2 in every NZ team and 12 in SR. I don't see them myself.... can you please provide names.

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Post by Mr Fishpaste Wed 01 Jun 2016, 10:44 am

Rowanbi wrote:Who denied they were well-suited to rugby? Also, Polynesians would certainly comprise more than 21/5% of the rugby-playing population. Probably between 30 & 40%.

But 60% of the Springboks come from just 9% of the population Shocked  mad  nope . If that doesn't indicate a lack of effective integration to you, then you're missing something, quite clearly...

Here you set different goal posts: You say that Polynesians represent 30-40% of the rugby playing population (as opposed to the 21% of the total population). Hence, you claim 30-40% of the rugby teams should be polynesians.

Yet for SA, you argue that the rugby team should reflect the entire population, not just the rugby-playing population (which it probably does)... Doh

Make up your mind.

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 01 Jun 2016, 10:51 am

You said the PI players were under represented in NZ rugby

No I didn't. I said their physical advantages hadn't prevented the majority white population's continued domination of the national team. How easily you misconstrued that simple observation.  Doh

(and actually subtly accused me of racism suggesting I think its ok because they're white which is not only crass but wrong)


Bizarre. Have you also been seeing ghosts and aliens recently?

I clearly showed you to be wrong as their representatives were double that of their national demographic.

Showed me wrong about what? The fact that their physical advantages hadn't prevented the white majority's continued domination of the national team?  Doh

You don't even know your facts about your own country which many have said so many times before.

True. I know very little about Hong Kong. But when it comes to New Zealand rugby, I know more than you've had time to learn - hence your total confusion at this particular stage of the discussion.

a 5'9 flyhalf, a 5'9 centre, a 5'7 winger, a 5'9 hooker, a 6'4 flank (the exception) and a 6'0 no.8.

This is about one step away from measuring skulls... warning

You accused 7.5 of racism,

How? By quoting his commment that the "non-whites were no good at the white man's game" ? Sure, that must be my fault then ... Rolling Eyes  

So pull yourself together, Fa0019, try to argue like an adult and refrain from the shoot the messenger approach (because frankly you're an awful shot), and explain to us how 60% of the Springboks are drawn from just 9% of the population if there are absolutely no obstacles to effective integration in the game.

So we shouldnt hold the world cup in South Africa because its got a corrupt governement yeah?

That would've also ruled out England, 2015, surely. Or do we only concern ourselves with corruption in African countries?? devil

Hence, you claim 30-40% of the rugby teams should be polynesians.

I claimed no such thing, Mr Fishpaste. In reality, the point I made was that the physical advantages of Polynesians had not prevented the white majority's continued domination of the national team - the very justification Fa0019 has been trying to pass off for 60% of the Springboks team being drawn from just 9% of the population Doh
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Post by Mr Fishpaste Wed 01 Jun 2016, 10:55 am

What is the meaning of this sentence then?

"Also, Polynesians would certainly comprise more than 21/5% of the rugby-playing population. Probably between 30 & 40%."

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 01 Jun 2016, 11:01 am

It's an estimate, not a conditional.
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Post by SecretFly Wed 01 Jun 2016, 11:03 am

Race Obviously doesn't matter on this thread Wink

I guess we're all proving why it's still an 'issue' in South Africa. Never have I seen so many fact, figures, pie chart equations, spreadsheet and percentages directed at the specific colour of a person's skin.

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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 11:15 am

Rowanbi

Polynesians bat well above their demographic weight both in NZ and AUS vs. White europeans mainly of British origin. You said Whites dominated... well they only make up 57% of the team even though they made up over 70% of the population (including Asians who make up 9% and have zero participants now and I wonder if you can name me even one.... are not even some Asians not fast, not tall, not strong??? Its hardly a case for dominating. Demographically only because of the sheer weight of numbers and not proportionally.

You don't even know your own NZ team.

Measuring skulls.... you are a troll

Can you give me a list of world class wingers please vs. Cheslin Kolbe at 5'7 and 70kgs.

JP Pietersen - 6'2 106kg
Bryan Habana - 5'11 and 95kg.
George North - 6'4 109kg
Alex Cuthbert  - 6'6 106kg
Sean Maitland  - 6'2 97 kgs
Tommy Seymour 6'0 97kgs
Tim Visser 6'5 109kgs
Anthony Watson  6'2 95 kgs
Jack Nowell 5'10 97kgs
Julian Sevea 6'4 109kgs
Nehe Milner-Skudder - 5'11 90kgs
Drew Mitchell - 5'11 92kgs
Adam Ashley Cooper - 6,1 98kgs

The average size of these players and its not cherry picked either... top wingers from most tier 1 nations is.. drumroll

6'1.5 and 100kgs

so Cheslin Kolbe (the winger you quoted)..please support your claim.

.... is 4.5 inches shorter on average and near 30kgs lighter. Averages not always right well the shortest listed is 5'10 (3 inches taller than Kolbe) and the lightest is 90kgs (20kgs heavier).

Jason Robinson sure was 5'8.. but he was also a tank and well over 85kgs (15kgs heavier than Kolbe). He was also a one off rugby wise and was never a liability in defence (Kolbe is dire in defence)

This is your thing... when you can't argue against the facts, you simply say.. racism, "measuring skulls" or accusing people of favouritism to whites. That's all you have. Its pathetic.

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Post by Sin é Wed 01 Jun 2016, 11:22 am

Alex Cuthbert is not a world class winger Very Happy (or a relative of it). Some very dubious selections there like Sean Maitland, Tim Visser, Tommy Seymour.

And you ignore of course Shane Williams who was 5'6"!

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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 11:24 am

Sin é wrote:Alex Cuthbert is not a world class winger Very Happy (or a relative of it). Some very dubious selections there like Sean Maitland, Tim Visser, Tommy Seymour.

And you ignore of course Shane Williams who was 5'6"!


Said current, but did highlight Robinson as example of exception. Williams is the same, he was never a liability in attack or defence size wise though like Robinson. Remember his tackle on Matt Banahan?

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Post by Mr Fishpaste Wed 01 Jun 2016, 11:26 am

Rowanbi wrote:It's an estimate, not a conditional.

Don't back-pedal now. You were clearly trying to counter Fa's claim that Polynesians are over-represented relative to the total population, by saying that they aren't over-represented relative to the rugby-playing population...which works just as well in defense of the number of whites in the Springboks (hence your retrospective revisionism)

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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 11:29 am

Mr Fishpaste wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:It's an estimate, not a conditional.

Don't back-pedal now. You were clearly trying to counter Fa's claim that Polynesians are over-represented relative to the total population, by saying that they aren't over-represented relative to the rugby-playing population...which works just as well in defense of the number of whites in the Springboks (hence your retrospective revisionism)

not just that... that given they are not the same things compared they cannot be seen as a genuine comparison. Its apples and oranges

Polynesians compared to white Europeans (mainly Britons) vs. Africans vs. White Europeans (mainly Dutch) is not a valid comparison.

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 01 Jun 2016, 12:43 pm

Mr Fishpaste wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:It's an estimate, not a conditional.

Don't back-pedal now. You were clearly trying to counter Fa's claim that Polynesians are over-represented relative to the total population, by saying that they aren't over-represented relative to the rugby-playing population...which works just as well in defense of the number of whites in the Springboks (hence your retrospective revisionism)

I take it English is not your first language, Mr Fishpaste. You see, a conditional sentence requires an 'if' clause. My comment did not include an 'if' clause and was therefore not a conditional, let alone a recommendation, as you somewhat weirdly construed. To anybody who understands the English language correctly, it was clearly an estimate, because there is a great deal of difference between 'would' and 'should.'

Again, the point I was making, quite simply, was that Polynesian physical advantages have not prevented New Zealand's white majority from continuing to dominate the national team - whichmakes a mockery of Fa0012's claims that 60% of the Springboks team are drawn from just 9% of the population because of physical advantages and has nothing to do with a lack of effective integration of the 91% majority.
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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 1:05 pm

Rowanbi wrote:
Mr Fishpaste wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:It's an estimate, not a conditional.

Don't back-pedal now. You were clearly trying to counter Fa's claim that Polynesians are over-represented relative to the total population, by saying that they aren't over-represented relative to the rugby-playing population...which works just as well in defense of the number of whites in the Springboks (hence your retrospective revisionism)

I take it English is not your first language, Mr Fishpaste. You see, a conditional sentence requires an 'if' clause. My comment did not include an 'if' clause and was therefore not a conditional, let alone a recommendation, as you somewhat weirdly construed. To anybody who understands the English language correctly, it was clearly an estimate, because there is a great deal of difference between 'would' and 'should.'

Again, the point I was making, quite simply, was that Polynesian physical advantages have not prevented New Zealand's white majority from continuing to dominate the national team - whichmakes a mockery of Fa0012's claims that 60% of the Springboks team are drawn from just 9% of the population because of physical advantages and has nothing to do with a lack of effective integration of the 91% majority.

Yet again comparing 2 different scenarios and expecting to see returns. You cannot compare White Britons against Polynesians/Melanesians and White Europeans to South African Africans.... because they are wildly different groups.

Why don't you compare them to Asians in NZ? The average height in SA of Africans is 5'5. Now I imagine that's around the same as Asians in NZ given the average height of China is 5'8, Vietnam 5'5, Malaysia 5'6, Indonesia 5'7 etc etc?

So Africans in SA are similar heights to Asians in NZ. Asians in NZ make up 9% of the population and therefore we should see at least a dozen professional Asian players in super rugby. Can you list them?

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Post by lostinwales Wed 01 Jun 2016, 1:16 pm

I also wonder about players with Indian heritage in the Fiji national team.

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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 1:17 pm

so lets say in NZ they aren't excluded or racially profiled? Then why don't see see any?

In the UK I don't think you can say the system is overtly racist.

Rory Underwood (Chinese origin)
Tony Underwood (Chinese origin)
Brian Moore (Chinese origin)
Gareth Delve (Chinese origin.. who played SR for the Rebels and was their captain)

However those players have now retired, some for 20 years.

They make up about 1% of the UK population so we should see a few players in the premiership at any one time. In addition to this they make a larger proportion of the UK public school sector which is rugby's heartland.

So why so few?

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 01 Jun 2016, 1:20 pm

There are very few Asians playing rugby in New Zealand. I would guess less than 1% of the playing population (let that not be misconstrued as a conditional or recommendation; it's only an estimate), and the reason for this is undoubtably cultural preference. That in itself may indicate a lack of integration at social level, but not in rugby, so far as I'm aware. There is nothing to prevent Asians from playing the game nor excelling at it, if that's what youre driving at.

But in South Africa we have this scenario, it appears, in which increased participation at age-grade level is not reflected at first class level, with about 70% of players involved in Super Rugby being drawn from 9% of the population.


"Although black representation at under-age and amateur level has increased significantly over the past 22 years, and better reflect the nation’s ethnic make-up, professional rugby continues to be predominately white.


Media reports say that on the first Saturday of April there were just 38 players of colour in the match-day 23 of the six professional franchises. That number needs to rise to 69 out of 138 to meet the 50 per cent target.


That's clearly indicates ongoing barriers to integration, not cultural preference.
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Post by SecretFly Wed 01 Jun 2016, 1:23 pm

Too many tape measures and weighing scales involved in choosing South Africa to host.

Ireland it is Wink

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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 1:27 pm

Rowanbi wrote:There are very few Asians playing rugby in New Zealand. I would guess less than 1% of the playing population (let that not be misconstrued as a conditional or recommendation; it's only an estimate), and the reason for this is undoubtably cultural preference. That in itself may indicate a lack of integration at social level, but not in rugby, so far as I'm aware. There is nothing to prevent Asians from playing the game nor excelling at it, if that's what youre driving at.

But in South Africa we have this scenario, it appears, in which increased participation at age-grade level is not reflected at first class level, with about 70% of players involved in Super Rugby being drawn from 9% of the population.


"Although black representation at under-age and amateur level has increased significantly over the past 22 years, and better reflect the nation’s ethnic make-up, professional rugby continues to be predominately white.


Media reports say that on the first Saturday of April there were just 38 players of colour in the match-day 23 of the six professional franchises. That number needs to rise to 69 out of 138 to meet the 50 per cent target.


That's clearly indicates ongoing barriers to integration, not cultural preference.

very few... can you name a single professional player in NZ (ever not even now) of Asian extraction and not shipped over from Japan (I believe the Highlanders have 1 or did recently)? So you're saying that there are no barriers so given sport is kind of mandatory in most countries I assume they have to play it in school? So why none coming through? For 9% of the population to have zero pro players is surprisingly not even one bucked the trend.

What don't they like rugby?

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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 1:31 pm

Media reports say that on the first Saturday of April there were just 38 players of colour in the match-day 23 of the six professional franchises. That number needs to rise to 69 out of 138 to meet the 50 per cent target.


That's clearly indicates ongoing barriers to integration, not cultural preference.


why exactly? How is it evidence of barriers?

Why don't you list the number of players in the NBA starting and do a similar count? Do white americans not like the game. I've met many and they're obsessed by the sport. Look at the crowds at games, very white much like the country?

So if its not applicable to basketball in the USA how is it applicable to rugby in SA?

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Post by Mr Fishpaste Wed 01 Jun 2016, 1:34 pm

Rowanbi wrote:
Mr Fishpaste wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:It's an estimate, not a conditional.

Don't back-pedal now. You were clearly trying to counter Fa's claim that Polynesians are over-represented relative to the total population, by saying that they aren't over-represented relative to the rugby-playing population...which works just as well in defense of the number of whites in the Springboks (hence your retrospective revisionism)

I take it English is not your first language, Mr Fishpaste. You see, a conditional sentence requires an 'if' clause. My comment did not include an 'if' clause and was therefore not a conditional, let alone a recommendation, as you somewhat weirdly construed. To anybody who understands the English language correctly, it was clearly an estimate, because there is a great deal of difference between 'would' and 'should.'

Again, the point I was making, quite simply, was that Polynesian physical advantages have not prevented New Zealand's white majority from continuing to dominate the national team - whichmakes a mockery of Fa0012's claims that 60% of the Springboks team are drawn from just 9% of the population because of physical advantages and has nothing to do with a lack of effective integration of the 91% majority.

Why, the concern over my linguistic ability is touching. Fear not! I am well able to engage in dialectical discourse through utilisation of hi-convoluted grammatical junctures...so much so that your attempts to hide behind semantics are not working on me....

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 01 Jun 2016, 1:43 pm

Fa0019, rugby's not mandatory in New Zealand's schools. In the cities it's not even played at many primary & intermediate schools. I believe league is bigger at junior levels in Auckland, and soccer is surely bigger in Wellington. The backbone of New Zealand rugby is the farming communities and the Polynesians. Again, I would estimate the number of Asian players as being under 1%, due to their own cultural preferences.

Meanwhile, former NZ 7's star Rocky Khan was an Auckland-born Fijian Indian. Wellington & All Blacks fullback of the 1970s Joe Karam was of Lebanese extraction, if the Middle East counts. That's off the top of my head. I'd need time to come up with more.

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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 1:46 pm

Rowanbi wrote:Fa0019, rugby's not mandatory in New Zealand's schools. In the cities it's not even played at many primary & intermediate schools. I believe league is bigger at junior levels in Auckland, and soccer is surely bigger in Wellington. The backbone of New Zealand rugby is the farming communities and the Polynesians. Again, I would estimate the number of Asian players as being under 1%, due to their own cultural preferences.

Meanwhile, former NZ 7's star Rocky Khan was an Auckland-born Fijian Indian. Wellington & All Blacks fullback of the 1970s Joe Karam was of Lebanese extraction, if the Middle East counts. That's off the top of my head. I'd need time to come up with more.


So how many in league then?

So why not even 1?

Surely we have 1 single example? There must be Asian children who love rugby in NZ.

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 01 Jun 2016, 1:56 pm

You need to find someone who's interested in league (and basketball) to answer those questions for you. I've responded to your questions about rugby. You still haven't explained how 60% of the Springboks - and about 70% of SA's Super Rugby players - are drawn from just 9% of the population when reports show that participation among non-whites at junior level has been flourishing ever since the end of the Apartheid - other than to pass it off as the result of physical disadvantages; a hypothesis I've blown to bits with comparisons to the white majority's ongoing domination of the All Blacks in spite of Polynesians' general physical advantages.

As one of the mods put it on another thread:

Been reading through this thread and although it has been interesting the race issue in regards to size, speed and athleticism is not the inhibiting factor in why there are such poor representation of non-whites in South AFrican rugby.

IT has everything to do with participation.

That participation is what needs to be addressed.
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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 2:02 pm

Rowanbi wrote:You need to find someone who's interested in league (and basketball) to answer those questions for you. I've responded to your questions about rugby. You still haven't explained how 60% of the Springboks - and about 70% of SA's Super Rugby players - are drawn from just 9% of the population when reports show that participation among non-whites at junior level has been flourishing ever since the end of the Apartheid - other than to pass it off as the result of physical disadvantages; a hypothesis I've blown to bits with comparisons to the white majority's ongoing domination of the All Blacks in spite of Polynesians' general physical advantages.

As one of the mods put it on another thread:

Been reading through this thread and although it has been interesting the race issue in regards to size, speed and athleticism is not the inhibiting factor in why there are such poor representation of non-whites in South AFrican rugby.

IT has everything to do with participation.

That participation is what needs to be addressed.

ah the cope out... I don't know. White Americans love basketball, love track, love football, love baseball. They love sports yet are minorities in all these sports. Why?

Again your inaccuracies on your ABs is laughable... ongoing domination of ABs... well not proportionally given Pacific Islanders have double the participation rate of their demographic and 7* their proportional size in Australia with the AB and AUS teams at the RWC. IN AUS its even greater given the fact that its a sport played mainly in public schools.

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Post by the-goon Wed 01 Jun 2016, 2:14 pm

Rowanbi wrote:You need to find someone who's interested in league (and basketball) to answer those questions for you. I've responded to your questions about rugby. You still haven't explained how 60% of the Springboks - and about 70% of SA's Super Rugby players - are drawn from just 9% of the population when reports show that participation among non-whites at junior level has been flourishing ever since the end of the Apartheid - other than to pass it off as the result of physical disadvantages; a hypothesis I've blown to bits with comparisons to the white majority's ongoing domination of the All Blacks in spite of Polynesians' general physical advantages.

As one of the mods put it on another thread:

Been reading through this thread and although it has been interesting the race issue in regards to size, speed and athleticism is not the inhibiting factor in why there are such poor representation of non-whites in South AFrican rugby.

IT has everything to do with participation.

That participation is what needs to be addressed.

Incorrect!! You have done no such thing. Again your grasp on reality is tenuous at best.

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