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2023 (expanded) Rugby World Cup for South Africa

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Post by fa0019 Fri 22 Apr 2016, 3:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

doctor_grey wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
SecretFly wrote:JFK left a final directive just weeks before he was assassinated that impelled the CIA to stop at all cost South Africa having more than one hosting of a World Cup per 20 year period.

The CIA, feeling guilty about Oswald and all, are trying to keep to the promise.... for old time's sake.

That's the only connection I can find between JFK and this thread...from reading 700 autobiographical books by Kennedy's Women.
I have the same abridged version of JFK and his women, too.  I read the same thing.  Camelot (the JFK presidency) strictly prohibited SA from hosting more than one RWC.  Said  it would endanger world security.  I thought I read in the Snowdon leaks the CIA is keeping Zuma in charge because no one in his right mind would put a major competition in a country wohch woul elect him.  It is all a plot hatched over 40 years ago.

The final part makes more sense then him simply appealing to the electorate.
I always thought it was the Mafia who got him elected.  So the mafia was his electorate, no?  Just like FIFA.

standard policy of slandering your rivals as witches and getting lookalikes to feature in grainy video stings with prostitutes.

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Post by Biltong Wed 01 Jun 2016, 2:18 pm

Rowanbi wrote:From the Irish Times:


"Although black representation at under-age and amateur level has increased significantly over the past 22 years, and better reflect the nation’s ethnic make-up, professional rugby continues to be predominately white.

Key pillars

However, the SARU’s adoption of its new strategic transformation plan last year shows there is a new attempt to change this situation. The plan has demographic representation and access to the game as two of six key pillars.

At its launch in early 2015, SARU chief Jurie Roux emphasised the transformation plan was not a quota system that would be forced on professional teams, but rather a road map for them to help achieve representation targets.

Yet despite the fanfare and promises, little has changed so far. Indeed, it has been reported that SARU is due to deliver a progress report around this failure to the strangely named, Eminent Persons Group, the authors of transformation guidelines in sporting codes.

In the document, they are expected to explain why former Springbok coach Heneke Meyer failed to field the agreed minimum number of black players in all but one of his team’s 11 Tests last year. As an incremental way to meet SARU’s 2019 transformation targets, Meyer was supposed to field seven black players in each match-day squad of 23.

Shortly before the Rugby World Cup in England, a number of black and coloured players vying for places in the Springbok squad had approached union federation Cosatu to air their grievances in relation to this, says its Western Cape regional secretary Tony Ehrenreich.

“The squad players felt they were being treated unfairly in a number of ways. For instance, they weren’t getting enough game time in their Super 15 teams, or on the national team,” recalls Ehrenreich.

“When potential opportunities were coming up through injury, the coaches continued to select white players, even playing them out of position, rather than selecting black players. Furthermore, they believed the more lucrative contracts were going to white players.”

Rugby analyst and blogger Shaun Lilford agrees that Meyer’s team selections were questionable, as there were a number of black players excelling in their Super 15 teams who failed to get opportunities in Springbok match-day squads.

“You had guys like Lional Mapoe and Howard Mnisi, who both play centre for the Lions and were on fire, and they were not getting a look-in. I was expecting a lot more black players to come through last year, but it didn’t happen,” he says.

Others such as Elton Jantjies, Juan de Jongh, Cheslin Kolbe, Scarra Ntubeni, Oupa Mohoje and Nizaam Carr also got little chance to shine ahead of the World Cup despite preforming well for their clubs.

Being a World Cup year, it seems players’ frustrations were left unattended for the sake of team unity ahead of the competition, but in November sports minister Fikile Mbalula was clear about what would happen if the Springboks failed to meet future transformation targets. “We will deregister the team, withdraw national colours, and withdraw national funding,” he warned.

While SARU insists Coetzee is 100 per cent behind the transformation targets, to a large degree the former Stormers coach is reliant on the professional clubs giving their black players enough game time if he is to transform the squad while staying competitive.

Systemic racism

Furthermore, while these franchise teams are fielding some black players, they are failing to contract enough from the under-age levels to meet their own transformation targets.This further reduces Coetzee’s options.

Media reports say that on the first Saturday of April there were just 38 players of colour in the match-day 23 of the six professional franchises. That number needs to rise to 69 out of 138 to meet the 50 per cent target.

Ehrenreich believes the lack of transformation to date stems from both individual and systemic racism, and for the transformation plan to work, its enforcement by an independent body is needed.

“When it comes to the franchises there is a weakness there in terms of oversight to ensure they comply with transformation. And in this regard the team’s commercial sponsors should play a role,” he insists.

Lilford is also unsure if Coetzee is the right man to oversee the implementation of the transformation agenda.

Lilford sees him as an old-style rugby coach who values players who have proved themselves rather than one who will try untested talent.

“I think Springbok rugby is going to be in a confusing space over the short term. But if the new coach is going to bring in untested black players, then the best time to do it is in the first year of his tenure and against touring sides when the stakes or not as high,” he says.

Coetzee has no choice but to rebuild the national team following the retirement of Victor Matfield, Jean de Villiers and Fourie du Preez. So maybe opportunity is knocking more loudly than ever before for an Irish rugby team that has never won a Test in South Africa."


https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/south-african-rugby-still-a-black-and-white-issue-1.2608188

It is rubbish like this that peeves me off.

Too many people with their own agendas keep harping on the same shyte.

You can spin this Poopie anyway you want.

There is simply no f...ing way you will get an exact representation of the ethnic make up of any country in any sport.

It has everything to do with participation, you don't just manufacture rugby stars because those with agendas demand it. Get these government officials to do their bit, then once they have actually done something do they have the right to demand anything.

It is double standards simple as.

Every bit of transformation in rugby in SA has come from outside government.

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Post by FerN Wed 01 Jun 2016, 2:26 pm

Rowanbi wrote:
"Although black representation at under-age and amateur level has increased significantly over the past 22 years, and better reflect the nation’s ethnic make-up, professional rugby continues to be predominately white.


Media reports say that on the first Saturday of April there were just 38 players of colour in the match-day 23 of the six professional franchises. That number needs to rise to 69 out of 138 to meet the 50 per cent target.

Where are you quoting this from? And do they have links to it. When I go watch the games it doesn't look like the school rugby's representation has changed that much. Varsity cup is more representative, but still not close to it being in line with national demographics.

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 01 Jun 2016, 2:31 pm

Mr Fishpaste wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:From the Irish Times:


"Although black representation at under-age and amateur level has increased significantly over the past 22 years, and better reflect the nation’s ethnic make-up, professional rugby continues to be predominately white.

Key pillars

However, the SARU’s adoption of its new strategic transformation plan last year shows there is a new attempt to change this situation. The plan has demographic representation and access to the game as two of six key pillars.

At its launch in early 2015, SARU chief Jurie Roux emphasised the transformation plan was not a quota system that would be forced on professional teams, but rather a road map for them to help achieve representation targets.

Yet despite the fanfare and promises, little has changed so far. Indeed, it has been reported that SARU is due to deliver a progress report around this failure to the strangely named, Eminent Persons Group, the authors of transformation guidelines in sporting codes.

In the document, they are expected to explain why former Springbok coach Heneke Meyer failed to field the agreed minimum number of black players in all but one of his team’s 11 Tests last year. As an incremental way to meet SARU’s 2019 transformation targets, Meyer was supposed to field seven black players in each match-day squad of 23.

Shortly before the Rugby World Cup in England, a number of black and coloured players vying for places in the Springbok squad had approached union federation Cosatu to air their grievances in relation to this, says its Western Cape regional secretary Tony Ehrenreich.

“The squad players felt they were being treated unfairly in a number of ways. For instance, they weren’t getting enough game time in their Super 15 teams, or on the national team,” recalls Ehrenreich.

“When potential opportunities were coming up through injury, the coaches continued to select white players, even playing them out of position, rather than selecting black players. Furthermore, they believed the more lucrative contracts were going to white players.”

Rugby analyst and blogger Shaun Lilford agrees that Meyer’s team selections were questionable, as there were a number of black players excelling in their Super 15 teams who failed to get opportunities in Springbok match-day squads.

“You had guys like Lional Mapoe and Howard Mnisi, who both play centre for the Lions and were on fire, and they were not getting a look-in. I was expecting a lot more black players to come through last year, but it didn’t happen,” he says.

Others such as Elton Jantjies, Juan de Jongh, Cheslin Kolbe, Scarra Ntubeni, Oupa Mohoje and Nizaam Carr also got little chance to shine ahead of the World Cup despite preforming well for their clubs.

Being a World Cup year, it seems players’ frustrations were left unattended for the sake of team unity ahead of the competition, but in November sports minister Fikile Mbalula was clear about what would happen if the Springboks failed to meet future transformation targets. “We will deregister the team, withdraw national colours, and withdraw national funding,” he warned.

While SARU insists Coetzee is 100 per cent behind the transformation targets, to a large degree the former Stormers coach is reliant on the professional clubs giving their black players enough game time if he is to transform the squad while staying competitive.

Systemic racism

Furthermore, while these franchise teams are fielding some black players, they are failing to contract enough from the under-age levels to meet their own transformation targets.This further reduces Coetzee’s options.

Media reports say that on the first Saturday of April there were just 38 players of colour in the match-day 23 of the six professional franchises. That number needs to rise to 69 out of 138 to meet the 50 per cent target.

Ehrenreich believes the lack of transformation to date stems from both individual and systemic racism, and for the transformation plan to work, its enforcement by an independent body is needed.

“When it comes to the franchises there is a weakness there in terms of oversight to ensure they comply with transformation. And in this regard the team’s commercial sponsors should play a role,” he insists.

Lilford is also unsure if Coetzee is the right man to oversee the implementation of the transformation agenda.

Lilford sees him as an old-style rugby coach who values players who have proved themselves rather than one who will try untested talent.

“I think Springbok rugby is going to be in a confusing space over the short term. But if the new coach is going to bring in untested black players, then the best time to do it is in the first year of his tenure and against touring sides when the stakes or not as high,” he says.

Coetzee has no choice but to rebuild the national team following the retirement of Victor Matfield, Jean de Villiers and Fourie du Preez. So maybe opportunity is knocking more loudly than ever before for an Irish rugby team that has never won a Test in South Africa."


https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/south-african-rugby-still-a-black-and-white-issue-1.2608188

Must be the Irish Times that's racist for publishing this then, eh. & the South African government, of course. & anyone who supports their efforts to address the apparent lack of integration within South African rugby. Couldn't possibly be that vestiges of the Apartheid mentality remain within a sport that was once its exlcusive domain, even though 60% of Springboks and 70% of Super Rugby players continue to be drawn from 9% of the population fully a generation later. No, it's everybody else who's "racist" in the view of those defending the SARFU and denying the bare statistics. It's almost like Apartheid never actually ended Rolling Eyes
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Post by Biltong Wed 01 Jun 2016, 2:37 pm

Must be the Irish Times that's racist for publishing this then, eh. & the South African government, of course. & anyone who supports their efforts to address the apparent lack of integration within South African rugby. Couldn't possibly be that vestiges of the Apartheid era remain within a sport that was once its excusive domain, even though 60% of Springboks and 70% of Super Rugby players continue to be drawn from 9% of the population fully a generation later. No, it's everybody else who's "racist" in the view of those defending the SARFU and denying the bare statistics. It's almost like Apartheid never actually ended

There are so many ignorant concepts in that statement.

anyone who supports their efforts to address the apparent lack of integration within South African rugby

What efforts? Where is the proof of these supposed efforts? The only ones putting any effort into it are the Rugby schools scouting and funding youngsters, and the traditional white schools who's parents fund most sport.

The fact is the traditional non white schools don't have money , their parents don't have money, and government is not funding sport.

This underwhelming percentage of white schools must address the balance of 80% of the population?

Pray tell how?

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 01 Jun 2016, 2:40 pm

That was an extremely racist piece from the Irish times but sure we expect no different from the media. With racism being such a strong issue in South African rugby like you suggest, how is the new national coach black? How are all these black players getting into the national team? You do realise you are trying to fight racism with racism? I'm sure your one of those people who believe only the whites can be racist though.

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Post by Rowanbi Wed 01 Jun 2016, 2:45 pm

Rowanbi wrote:
Mr Fishpaste wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:From the Irish Times:


"Although black representation at under-age and amateur level has increased significantly over the past 22 years, and better reflect the nation’s ethnic make-up, professional rugby continues to be predominately white.

Key pillars

However, the SARU’s adoption of its new strategic transformation plan last year shows there is a new attempt to change this situation. The plan has demographic representation and access to the game as two of six key pillars.

At its launch in early 2015, SARU chief Jurie Roux emphasised the transformation plan was not a quota system that would be forced on professional teams, but rather a road map for them to help achieve representation targets.

Yet despite the fanfare and promises, little has changed so far. Indeed, it has been reported that SARU is due to deliver a progress report around this failure to the strangely named, Eminent Persons Group, the authors of transformation guidelines in sporting codes.

In the document, they are expected to explain why former Springbok coach Heneke Meyer failed to field the agreed minimum number of black players in all but one of his team’s 11 Tests last year. As an incremental way to meet SARU’s 2019 transformation targets, Meyer was supposed to field seven black players in each match-day squad of 23.

Shortly before the Rugby World Cup in England, a number of black and coloured players vying for places in the Springbok squad had approached union federation Cosatu to air their grievances in relation to this, says its Western Cape regional secretary Tony Ehrenreich.

“The squad players felt they were being treated unfairly in a number of ways. For instance, they weren’t getting enough game time in their Super 15 teams, or on the national team,” recalls Ehrenreich.

“When potential opportunities were coming up through injury, the coaches continued to select white players, even playing them out of position, rather than selecting black players. Furthermore, they believed the more lucrative contracts were going to white players.”

Rugby analyst and blogger Shaun Lilford agrees that Meyer’s team selections were questionable, as there were a number of black players excelling in their Super 15 teams who failed to get opportunities in Springbok match-day squads.

“You had guys like Lional Mapoe and Howard Mnisi, who both play centre for the Lions and were on fire, and they were not getting a look-in. I was expecting a lot more black players to come through last year, but it didn’t happen,” he says.

Others such as Elton Jantjies, Juan de Jongh, Cheslin Kolbe, Scarra Ntubeni, Oupa Mohoje and Nizaam Carr also got little chance to shine ahead of the World Cup despite preforming well for their clubs.

Being a World Cup year, it seems players’ frustrations were left unattended for the sake of team unity ahead of the competition, but in November sports minister Fikile Mbalula was clear about what would happen if the Springboks failed to meet future transformation targets. “We will deregister the team, withdraw national colours, and withdraw national funding,” he warned.

While SARU insists Coetzee is 100 per cent behind the transformation targets, to a large degree the former Stormers coach is reliant on the professional clubs giving their black players enough game time if he is to transform the squad while staying competitive.

Systemic racism

Furthermore, while these franchise teams are fielding some black players, they are failing to contract enough from the under-age levels to meet their own transformation targets.This further reduces Coetzee’s options.

Media reports say that on the first Saturday of April there were just 38 players of colour in the match-day 23 of the six professional franchises. That number needs to rise to 69 out of 138 to meet the 50 per cent target.

Ehrenreich believes the lack of transformation to date stems from both individual and systemic racism, and for the transformation plan to work, its enforcement by an independent body is needed.

“When it comes to the franchises there is a weakness there in terms of oversight to ensure they comply with transformation. And in this regard the team’s commercial sponsors should play a role,” he insists.

Lilford is also unsure if Coetzee is the right man to oversee the implementation of the transformation agenda.

Lilford sees him as an old-style rugby coach who values players who have proved themselves rather than one who will try untested talent.

“I think Springbok rugby is going to be in a confusing space over the short term. But if the new coach is going to bring in untested black players, then the best time to do it is in the first year of his tenure and against touring sides when the stakes or not as high,” he says.

Coetzee has no choice but to rebuild the national team following the retirement of Victor Matfield, Jean de Villiers and Fourie du Preez. So maybe opportunity is knocking more loudly than ever before for an Irish rugby team that has never won a Test in South Africa."


https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/south-african-rugby-still-a-black-and-white-issue-1.2608188


I agree with the article. I think the problem lies with a lack of integration within a sport in a country which continues to draw 60% of its national team players, and 70% of its Super Rugby players, from 9% of the population, even though participation by the 91% majority has been flourishing ever since the end of Apartheid. The government is attempting to address this and folks here want to accuse them of racism. That's very reminiscent of the Apartheid era itself, and I can see that this mentality is not confined to the republic. It's a problem which is endemic to the sport itself.
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Post by Biltong Wed 01 Jun 2016, 2:47 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:That was an extremely racist piece from the Irish times but sure we expect no different from the media. With racism being such a strong issue in South African rugby like you suggest, how is the new national coach black? How are all these black players getting into the national team? You do realise you are trying to fight racism with racism? I'm sure your one of those people who believe only the whites can be racist though.

I have long since realised, the way you win an argument about transformation of sport in SA is to throw the race card.

Whilst the whites fight off the charges and accusations of racism, the original arguments get lost in the wind. Anything to throw the focus ff the fact that government has done nothing, has attempted nothing to address transformation.
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Post by Rowanbi Wed 01 Jun 2016, 4:37 pm

We see what the South African government is up against. Try to address the issue of racism and you get all these counter-accusations of racism being thrown around. It was the same tactic employed by white denialists during the Apartheid era. But there's simply no denying that a problem exists within a sport in a country where the national team draws 60% of its players from 9% of the population, and about 70% of its professional Super Rugby players, in spite of the remaining 91% of the population having become increasingly involved at junior levels since the end of Apartheid a generation ago.

In New Zealand the game has always been very open to integration, even where society wasn't. Indeed, it has been credited with playing a major role in bringing white New Zealanders and Maori together. The main blemish on its record there was the NZRFU's kowtowing to SA on the issue of white-only teams touring the republic right up until 1970. More recently, I believe that Pacific Islanders were being ignored to some degree toward the end of the amateur era. There was an abundance of raw talent out there to be seen as early as the late 70s, but the dam only really broke with the advent of the World Cup, followed soon after by professionalism, which engendered a much more cut-throat environment, thus the old prejudices gave way to a win-at-all-costs approach - notably the inclusion of game-breaking, crowd-pleasing Pacific Islanders.  I guess US pro-sports went through the same process a few decades earlier with African-Americans.
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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 4:49 pm

Rowanbi wrote:We see what the South Africa government is up against. Try to address the issue of racism and you get all these counter-accusations of racism being thrown around. It was the same tactic employed by white denialists during the Apartheid era. But there's simply no denying that a problem exists within a sport in a country where the national team draws 60% of its players from 9% of the population, and about 70% of its professional Super Rugby players, in spite of the remaining 91% of the population having become increasingly involved as junior levels since the end of Apartheid a generation ago.

In New Zealand the game has always been very open to integration, even where society wasn't. Indeed, it has been credited with playing a major role in bringing white New Zealanders and Maori together. The main blemish on its record there was the NZRFU's kowtowing to SA on the issue of white-only teams touring the republic right up until 1970. More recently, I believe that Pacific Islanders were being ignored to some degree toward the end of the amateur era. There was an abundance of raw talent out there to be seen as early as the late 70s, but the dam only really broke with the advent of the World Cup, followed soon after by professionalism, which engendered a much more cut-throat environment, thus the old prejudices gave way to a win-at-all-costs approach - notably the inclusion of game-breaking, crowd-pleasing Pacific Islanders.  I guess American pro-sports went through the same process a few decades earlier.

People in SA are overwhelmingly for all people to get a shout at rugby. We see the merits of great non white players such as Tendai Mtawarira, Bryan Habana, JP Pietersen, Breyton Paulse, Chester Williams.

However and its a big however

There is still a massive skills gap and that is undeniable

The players you suggested are discriminated against....

Kolbe at 5'7 as a winger
De Jongh at 5'9 as a centre
Jantjies at 5'9 as a flyhalf
Ntubeni at 5'9 as a hooker
Carr at 6'0 as a No.8
Kolisi at 6'1 as a blindside flanker

are frankly not good enough. If a non white player comes along as is great then great... that's what WE ALL WANT. But they are not there... and it's not because they're being repressed. Ask anyone in rugby without knowing such players and they would say... "those 6 would have to be literally one off, once in a generation type players to succeed in test rugby, let alone bok rugby... because they are way too small". That's a fact.

Can you even list the number of tier 1 rugby wingers in test rugby that have been 5'7 or less. Give it a try seriously.... Off the hundreds of guys in that position in 20 years who have played for 6N and 4N teams.... I bet you couldn't even name 10.

You still can't answer the above on the 6 YOU highlighted. And all you do is say... You're being racist because you say they're not good enough. We are judging them purely as individuals, that isn't racism... that's elite rugby. You say so and so are racist, you can't answer why no Asian NZ'ers have ever made it pro.... not even a single person in 20 years of the game even though we should be seeing near 100 individuals by now given their demographics.

You're just a troll.

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Post by fa0019 Wed 01 Jun 2016, 5:10 pm

managed to help you on your way so here we have a list of England players first capped as wingers... some may have been capped as fullbacks first etc so may not be 100%.

Jason Robinson 173 81
Tom Varndell 188 101
Lesley Vainikolo 188 112
Charlie Sharples 183 93
Chris Pennell 185 95
Anthony Watson 188 94
Jon Sleightholme 180 95
Adedayo Adebayo 175 95
David Rees        176 90
Spencer Brown 180 90
Dan Luger        185 90
Steve Hanley 193 101
Ben Cohen         188 103
Michael Stephenson 183 83
Phil Christophers 180 94
James Simpson-Daniel 183 92
Mark Cueto        183 95
Paul Sackey 186 92
David Strettle 183 78
Topsy Ojo        183 89
Ugo Monye       188 92
Matt Banahan 201 110
Chris Ashton 182 92
Christian Wade 173 86
Jonny May        186 92
Marland Yarde 183 96
Jack Nowell        177 97
Semesa Rokoduguni 184 98

First number is height in cm. Second is weight in kgs

see a pattern emerging???? Only 5 below 180cm. Only 1 below 80kgs.... out of 28 individuals He would be the shortest and the lightest.

and yet we're told we're racist because we say a guy who is 171cm and 72kg isn't good enough to play for the boks. Maybe he is an exception... unfortunately when you watch him play you realise he is not.

Could do it for the other 6 mentioned too. We say they're not good enough because..... they're not good enough. Picking a player because he is non-white is racism. I want guys like Mtawarira, Kolisi, Habana to be seen as being picked on merit when they are... not because they fill a quota. All you seed is division.

PS - from the names above you can they are a range of ethnicity too. Judging everyone the same way... as we should do.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 01 Jun 2016, 6:43 pm

Rowanbi wrote:We see what the South African government is up against. Try to address the issue of racism and you get all these counter-accusations of racism being thrown around. It was the same tactic employed by white denialists during the Apartheid era. But there's simply no denying that a problem exists within a sport in a country where the national team draws 60% of its players from 9% of the population, and about 70% of its professional Super Rugby players, in spite of the remaining 91% of the population having become increasingly involved at junior levels since the end of Apartheid a generation ago.

In New Zealand the game has always been very open to integration, even where society wasn't. Indeed, it has been credited with playing a major role in bringing white New Zealanders and Maori together. The main blemish on its record there was the NZRFU's kowtowing to SA on the issue of white-only teams touring the republic right up until 1970. More recently, I believe that Pacific Islanders were being ignored to some degree toward the end of the amateur era. There was an abundance of raw talent out there to be seen as early as the late 70s, but the dam only really broke with the advent of the World Cup, followed soon after by professionalism, which engendered a much more cut-throat environment, thus the old prejudices gave way to a win-at-all-costs approach - notably the inclusion of game-breaking, crowd-pleasing Pacific Islanders.  I guess US pro-sports went through the same process a few decades earlier with African-Americans.
It took a while but finally you've shown your true colours thumbsup It's some achievement to get banned from the tier 2 forum but I think we can all see why.

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 01 Jun 2016, 8:31 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:We see what the South African government is up against. Try to address the issue of racism and you get all these counter-accusations of racism being thrown around. It was the same tactic employed by white denialists during the Apartheid era. But there's simply no denying that a problem exists within a sport in a country where the national team draws 60% of its players from 9% of the population, and about 70% of its professional Super Rugby players, in spite of the remaining 91% of the population having become increasingly involved at junior levels since the end of Apartheid a generation ago.

In New Zealand the game has always been very open to integration, even where society wasn't. Indeed, it has been credited with playing a major role in bringing white New Zealanders and Maori together. The main blemish on its record there was the NZRFU's kowtowing to SA on the issue of white-only teams touring the republic right up until 1970. More recently, I believe that Pacific Islanders were being ignored to some degree toward the end of the amateur era. There was an abundance of raw talent out there to be seen as early as the late 70s, but the dam only really broke with the advent of the World Cup, followed soon after by professionalism, which engendered a much more cut-throat environment, thus the old prejudices gave way to a win-at-all-costs approach - notably the inclusion of game-breaking, crowd-pleasing Pacific Islanders.  I guess US pro-sports went through the same process a few decades earlier with African-Americans.
It took a while but finally you've shown your true colours thumbsup  It's some achievement to get banned from the tier 2 forum but I think we can all see why.

And what has the whole topic of racism and an article in the Irish Times got to do with the awarding of the RWC 2023 to South Africa?

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Post by SecretFly Wed 01 Jun 2016, 9:07 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:We see what the South African government is up against. Try to address the issue of racism and you get all these counter-accusations of racism being thrown around. It was the same tactic employed by white denialists during the Apartheid era. But there's simply no denying that a problem exists within a sport in a country where the national team draws 60% of its players from 9% of the population, and about 70% of its professional Super Rugby players, in spite of the remaining 91% of the population having become increasingly involved at junior levels since the end of Apartheid a generation ago.

In New Zealand the game has always been very open to integration, even where society wasn't. Indeed, it has been credited with playing a major role in bringing white New Zealanders and Maori together. The main blemish on its record there was the NZRFU's kowtowing to SA on the issue of white-only teams touring the republic right up until 1970. More recently, I believe that Pacific Islanders were being ignored to some degree toward the end of the amateur era. There was an abundance of raw talent out there to be seen as early as the late 70s, but the dam only really broke with the advent of the World Cup, followed soon after by professionalism, which engendered a much more cut-throat environment, thus the old prejudices gave way to a win-at-all-costs approach - notably the inclusion of game-breaking, crowd-pleasing Pacific Islanders.  I guess US pro-sports went through the same process a few decades earlier with African-Americans.
It took a while but finally you've shown your true colours thumbsup  It's some achievement to get banned from the tier 2 forum but I think we can all see why.

And what has the whole topic of racism and an article in the Irish Times got to do with the awarding of the RWC 2023 to South Africa?


Sure who is to know, Pot. I think this thread is one of the most peculiar and bizarre threads I've seen in a long time.... a Pandora's box of complex bits and pieces, sewn together haphazardly with the odd yelp of 'racist' and 'banning' cropping up for little or no reason other than to fan the flames of the surprisingly bitter fire generated by this particular battle.



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Post by Mr Fishpaste Wed 01 Jun 2016, 9:24 pm

Rowanbi wrote:We see what the South African government is up against. Try to address the issue of racism and you get all these counter-accusations of racism being thrown around. It was the same tactic employed by white denialists during the Apartheid era. But there's simply no denying that a problem exists within a sport in a country where the national team draws 60% of its players from 9% of the population, and about 70% of its professional Super Rugby players, in spite of the remaining 91% of the population having become increasingly involved at junior levels since the end of Apartheid a generation ago.

You are so out of touch with the realities of the current South African political situation that it would be amusing if it wasn't so annoying....

...and as far as:  'the remaining 91% of the population having become increasingly involved at junior levels', which seems to be the lynch-pin of your entire argument: 'Increasingly' means about 40% of Craven Week players are 'non-white'...which is incidentally about the same proportion of professional players...

...Furthermore, you said earlier that NZ Asians are under-represented in NZ rugby because playing rugby is not an Asian cultural preference. The same is true about black South Africans. Of the 91% that you speak of, most don't want to play rugby...in fact at many of the elite schools (from which come the majority of pro-rugby players) the increasing number of black pupils has not resulted in a proportional increase in the number of black rugby players, but rather an increasing number of soccer teams (and a net decrease in the number of rugby teams and players per school). So, many black children, given the very same sporting opportunities that produce SA's rugby players, are not choosing to play rugby! How can this be SARU's fault?


Last edited by Mr Fishpaste on Wed 01 Jun 2016, 9:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Mr Fishpaste Wed 01 Jun 2016, 9:26 pm

Pot Hale wrote:

And what has the whole topic of racism and an article in the Irish Times got to do with the awarding of the RWC 2023 to South Africa?


Because the SA government has banned SARU from bidding for the World Cup until it meets racial quota targets....that's why

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 01 Jun 2016, 11:07 pm

Mr Fishpaste wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

And what has the whole topic of racism and an article in the Irish Times got to do with the awarding of the RWC 2023 to South Africa?


Because the SA government has banned SARU from bidding for the World Cup until it meets racial quota targets....that's why

The article in the Irish Times is about the quotas and the challenge facing Coetzee in the run up to the Ireland tour of SA. Nothing to do with bidding for RWC 2023 is mentioned in it.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 02 Jun 2016, 10:48 pm

Rowanbi wrote: I've heard mentioned quite a number of times that South African blacks/coloureds simply don't possess the right dimensions for serious International rugby

Exactly. We don't hear Polynesians making these types of commments about white players. & even though I wouldn't deny that Polynesians are physically more suited to the game than whites, whites nonetheless make up the majority of the players in the All Blacks. That's because they comprise 70% of the population - I hear you cry. Well, non-whites comprise over 90% of the South African population. Meanwhile, around the world we can find any number of outstanding white players in every position.

I would still argue that rugby is a sport which gives any advantage to race unlike you seem to be saying here. This why you took mycomments out of context, to some how back up this view?

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Post by aucklandlaurie Thu 02 Jun 2016, 11:46 pm

Rowanbi wrote:We see what the South African government is up against. Try to address the issue of racism and you get all these counter-accusations of racism being thrown around. It was the same tactic employed by white denialists during the Apartheid era. But there's simply no denying that a problem exists within a sport in a country where the national team draws 60% of its players from 9% of the population, and about 70% of its professional Super Rugby players, in spite of the remaining 91% of the population having become increasingly involved at junior levels since the end of Apartheid a generation ago.

In New Zealand the game has always been very open to integration, even where society wasn't. Indeed, it has been credited with playing a major role in bringing white New Zealanders and Maori together. The main blemish on its record there was the NZRFU's kowtowing to SA on the issue of white-only teams touring the republic right up until 1970. More recently, I believe that Pacific Islanders were being ignored to some degree toward the end of the amateur era. There was an abundance of raw talent out there to be seen as early as the late 70s, but the dam only really broke with the advent of the World Cup, followed soon after by professionalism, which engendered a much more cut-throat environment, thus the old prejudices gave way to a win-at-all-costs approach - notably the inclusion of game-breaking, crowd-pleasing Pacific Islanders.  I guess US pro-sports went through the same process a few decades earlier with African-Americans.


However at no time has the New Zealand Government played politics with which Rugby players are selected to play for New Zealand, Nothing like how the present ANC South African Government is doing.

Once the next elections are over I dare say they will drop the hardline on racial makeup of the team.

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Post by Rowanbi Fri 03 Jun 2016, 5:52 pm

But the New Zealand government did come in for extreme criticism for not getting involved when the NZRFU agreed to send a whites only team to the republic in 1960. I don't think New Zealand rugby ever quite recovered from the controversy until the late 1980s, when the World Cup took over as the Holy Grail of international rugby and South Africa were finally isolated altogether.

Meanwhile, I personally feel that the South African government's decision to prevent its national rugby union from bidding to host the 2023 RWC (as it stands) reflects badly on the sport in general; not just the SARFU.
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Post by SecretFly Fri 03 Jun 2016, 5:57 pm

Rowanbi wrote:

Meanwhile, I personally feel that the South African government's decision to prevent its national rugby union from bidding to host the 2023 RWC (as it stands) reflects badly on the sport in general; not just the SARFU.  

How so? How does the sport itself globally become embroiled morally in that issue back in South Africa?

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Post by Rowanbi Fri 03 Jun 2016, 6:03 pm

It's quite clear, isn't it? One of the sport's major member unions, and its second largest player base, has effectively been punished by its government for lack of racial integration.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 03 Jun 2016, 6:05 pm

Where's my apology Quentin, you massive hypocrite.

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Post by SecretFly Fri 03 Jun 2016, 6:12 pm

Rowanbi wrote:It's quite clear, isn't it? One of the sport's major member unions, and its second largest player base, has effectively been punished by its government for lack of racial integration.

Well, the sport isn't the UN. It leaves politics to the politicians. No? Plus, in sporting administration terms, I don't think World Rugby would be dictating to any Rugby Nation what players to choose from their national stock to put in the National team.

So I'd think that on both fronts, the political and the sporting, I'd still suggest it's an exclusive South African problem and issue.

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Post by Rowanbi Fri 03 Jun 2016, 6:27 pm

It leaves politics to the politicians.

That sounds a little reminiscent of the old Apartheid era mantra of keeping sports and politics separate. In the end that proved impossible and wasn't appropriate to begin with.
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Post by SecretFly Fri 03 Jun 2016, 6:36 pm

It kinda is appropriate in many ways.... although I'd admit nothing is a perfect solution when anything in life is touched by politics.

World Rugby can't have an opinion on this one.... Apartheid is technically over - the once oppressed are now in control.  It's for politicians around the world now to keep an eye on racial equality issues and/or quota systems.

World Rugby has no part to play except to suggest to South Africa (politicians and the Rugby Union) that solving the issue as quickly as possible, or at least coming to a compromise that all agree with for the time being is the best chance South Africa will have of hosting 2023.

So the work is there for South African organisations and Heads of this and that to get on with.

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Post by thebandwagonsociety Fri 03 Jun 2016, 6:48 pm

I'm confused Rowanbi. You seem to be suggesting that World Rugby is racist because of issues in South Africa. And that it isn't appropriate to think otherwise.

So as a fan of rugby, does that automatically make me racist also?

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Post by Rowanbi Fri 03 Jun 2016, 8:23 pm

What part of I personally feel that the South African government's decision to prevent its national rugby union from bidding to host the 2023 RWC (as it stands) reflects badly on the sport in general; not just the SARFU led you to that conclusion?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 03 Jun 2016, 10:03 pm

Rowanbi wrote:What part of I personally feel that the South African government's decision to prevent its national rugby union from bidding to host the 2023 RWC (as it stands) reflects badly on the sport in general; not just the SARFU led you to that conclusion?

Where is my apology? I can't agree with your racist theory that a particular race is superior.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Fri 03 Jun 2016, 11:21 pm

Rowanbi wrote:But the New Zealand government did come in for extreme criticism for not getting involved when the NZRFU agreed to send a whites only team to the republic in 1960. I don't think New Zealand rugby ever quite recovered from the controversy until the late 1980s, when the World Cup took over as the Holy Grail of international rugby and South Africa were finally isolated altogether.

Meanwhile, I personally feel that the South African government's decision to prevent its national rugby union from bidding to host the 2023 RWC (as it stands) reflects badly on the sport in general; not just the SARFU.  
World rugby should have pulled them out of the running as soon as they heard even rumours of racial quotas.

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Post by Rowanbi Fri 03 Jun 2016, 11:38 pm

I doubt it would be in the best interests of World Rugby to be seen as opposing the South African government's efforts to stimulate integration and bring about a belated end to the ongoing white domination of a sport which was for most of the Apartheid era the exclusive domain of the oppressor.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier Fri 03 Jun 2016, 11:45 pm

You need to drop the anti white rhetoric, it's both disgracefully racist and boring.

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Post by Rowanbi Fri 03 Jun 2016, 11:51 pm

No Hammersmith, it is you who is the racist - quite clearly - by opposing the South African government's efforts to stimulate integration and bring about a belated end to the ongoing white domination of a sport which was for most of the Apartheid era the exclusive domain of te white oppressor. In fact, you represent in every way an extension of the Apartheid era mentality, and counter-accusations of racism were very much a part of their denialism.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier Fri 03 Jun 2016, 11:55 pm

I see no problem with white domination of any sport nor do I see a problem with black domination of any sport.

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Post by Rowanbi Fri 03 Jun 2016, 11:58 pm

That's not the point, Hammersmith. The point is that you are so vehemently opposed to the South African government's attempts to address what it perceives to be an ongoing racial issue that you become hostile and abusive toward anyone who disagrees with you. That's what I mean by an extension of the Apartheid era mentality.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sat 04 Jun 2016, 12:01 am

From Floyd Patterson through to Lennox Lewis (47 years), heavyweight boxing was dominated by black boxers to such an extent that a white boxer (Ingemar Johansson) held the title for a mere year with no successful defences. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and i'm sure you agree but were it the other way round and white boxers dominated no doubt you'd be up in arms about it.

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Post by Rowanbi Sat 04 Jun 2016, 12:04 am

but were it the other way round and white boxers dominated no doubt you'd be up in arms about it.

I don't follow it so closely these days but I believe that is the case, isn't it? The Eastern Europeans have taken over, at least at heavyweight level. Oh, and I think some Irish guy has one of the titles. I haven't heard anybody complaining either way.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sat 04 Jun 2016, 12:06 am

Rowanbi wrote:That's not the point, Hammersmith. The point is that you are so vehemently opposed to the South African government's attempts to address what it perceives to be an ongoing racial issue that you become hostile and abusive toward anyone who disagrees with you. That's what I mean by an extension of the Apartheid era mentality.

Odd opinion to hold considering I haven't posted a single comment on the matter but good effort.

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Post by Biltong Sat 04 Jun 2016, 12:16 am

Rowanbi wrote:I doubt it would be in the best interests of World Rugby to be seen as opposing the South African government's efforts to stimulate integration and bring about a belated end to the ongoing white domination of a sport which was for most of the Apartheid era the exclusive domain of the oppressor.

I am trying to understand your stance and with all due respect I am getting the impression that you are uninformed or under the wrong impression.

You continue to applaud the South African governments "efforts" to stimulate integration.

Mate what efforts?

Or are you suggesting that their threats are efforts?

Let me make this very clear, an effort is when someone (In this case the government) adds value or the necessary tools to improve a situation.

Up to this point there has been NO input whatsoever from the government to provide facilities, funds for facilities, equipment, coaches or any other tool to increase or even encourage participation in rugby.

This since 1994, yet you side by them and vehemently remind everyone of the white domination of the sport and the "barrier" that prevents integration.

The ANC is in power, which therefor allows them to do whatever they want.

But let us not pretend what they are doing is anywhere near an "effort"

They are demanding 9% of the population must finance and facilitate transformation.



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Post by aucklandlaurie Sat 04 Jun 2016, 8:29 am

Rowanbi wrote:That's not the point, Hammersmith. The point is that you are so vehemently opposed to the South African government's attempts to address what it perceives to be an ongoing racial issue that you become hostile and abusive toward anyone who disagrees with you. That's what I mean by an extension of the Apartheid era mentality.


What... just like this ANC Governments efforts to maintain a national Grid, maintain roads, protect society by maintaining law and order.. etc etc.

In your World Rowan, What colour is the sky?

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Post by Rowanbi Sat 04 Jun 2016, 8:37 am

Basically they are stepping in because of the SARFU's own lack of efforts in this department. It is the union which should have facilitated full integration of the sport, but they have failed to do this, evidently. All I'm doing is supporting the government's stance. Whether anyone wishes to agree or disagree on that, there is no need for the hostility and accusations of racism. That comes across as overly-defensive and denialist.
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Post by aucklandlaurie Sat 04 Jun 2016, 8:42 am


Missing the point. Becausee the Springboks are selected on merit not on the colour of their skin,, I presume you disagree with such a concept?

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Post by Rowanbi Sat 04 Jun 2016, 8:45 am

I think you've missed the point entirely, and that is because you are overly-defensive on the issue, entrenched in your old school perspectives and denialism.
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Post by aucklandlaurie Sat 04 Jun 2016, 8:52 am


For once Rowan you are right, an old school perspective which promoted the mantra, that to be in the top team you had to earn it, be the best player in your position, be the best player to execute a game plan, no such thing as selecting players just because they have a particular coloured skin.

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Post by Biltong Sat 04 Jun 2016, 8:53 am

Rowanbi wrote:Basically they are stepping in because of the SARFU's own lack of efforts in this department. It is the union which should have facilitated full integration of the sport, but they have failed to do this, evidently. All I'm doing is supporting the government's stance. Whether anyone wishes to agree or disagree on that, there is no need for the hostility and accusations of racism. That comes across as overly-defensive and denialist.

Rowambi, what is your stance on the responsibility towards sport development in South Africa, what do you think governement should do, and what should the Sporting bodies do.

Who takes responsibility for sports development at what level?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 04 Jun 2016, 9:19 am

Rowanbi wrote:Basically they are stepping in because of the SARFU's own lack of efforts in this department. It is the union which should have facilitated full integration of the sport, but they have failed to do this, evidently. All I'm doing is supporting the government's stance. Whether anyone wishes to agree or disagree on that, there is no need for the hostility and accusations of racism. That comes across as overly-defensive and denialist.

Yet you're the only one on this thread I've seen supporting racist theories.

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Post by Rowanbi Sat 04 Jun 2016, 9:30 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:Basically they are stepping in because of the SARFU's own lack of efforts in this department. It is the union which should have facilitated full integration of the sport, but they have failed to do this, evidently. All I'm doing is supporting the government's stance. Whether anyone wishes to agree or disagree on that, there is no need for the hostility and accusations of racism. That comes across as overly-defensive and denialist.

Yet you're the only one on this thread I've seen supporting racist theories.

You're the one who said non-whites were no good at the white man's games. Doh
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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sat 04 Jun 2016, 9:32 am

No he said that white South African men were generally bigger and stronger than native African men which holds some truth, it's hardly racist to point out that a white man would have no chance of winning the 100m.

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Post by Rowanbi Sat 04 Jun 2016, 9:37 am

Biltong wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:Basically they are stepping in because of the SARFU's own lack of efforts in this department. It is the union which should have facilitated full integration of the sport, but they have failed to do this, evidently. All I'm doing is supporting the government's stance. Whether anyone wishes to agree or disagree on that, there is no need for the hostility and accusations of racism. That comes across as overly-defensive and denialist.

Rowambi, what is your stance on the responsibility towards sport development in South Africa, what do you think governement should do, and what should the Sporting bodies do.

Who takes responsibility for sports development at what level?

As noted already, the SARFU should have facilitated integration within its own sport. Given the national team and Super Rugby squads remain dominated by just 9% of the population fully a generation after the end of Apartheid, it appears they have failed to do so effectively.  We must also recognise how the 91% majority, who were locked out of the sport for so long, may well perceive this as an extension of the Apartheid mentality. It is therefore a very sensitive issue to them, and I personally support the government's efforts to push things along. In fact, that's in the long-term interests of the sport in general.

Rowanbi
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 04 Jun 2016, 9:37 am

Rowanbi wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:Basically they are stepping in because of the SARFU's own lack of efforts in this department. It is the union which should have facilitated full integration of the sport, but they have failed to do this, evidently. All I'm doing is supporting the government's stance. Whether anyone wishes to agree or disagree on that, there is no need for the hostility and accusations of racism. That comes across as overly-defensive and denialist.

Yet you're the only one on this thread I've seen supporting racist theories.

You're the one who said non-whites were no good at the white man's games. Doh

Erm no, you took a select line from 1 post where I was supporting quotas and got the wrong end of the stick. Still waiting for an apology, though I was assuming you were bright enough to understand the conversation. You in this thread have supported the notion that some races are superior though which is racist any way you cut it. Be a big man and apologise Quentin.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 04 Jun 2016, 9:39 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:No he said that white South African men were generally bigger and stronger than native African men which holds some truth, it's hardly racist to point out that a white man would have no chance of winning the 100m.

Actually no I was arguing against that very point!

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