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2023 (expanded) Rugby World Cup for South Africa

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Post by fa0019 Fri 22 Apr 2016, 3:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

doctor_grey wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
SecretFly wrote:JFK left a final directive just weeks before he was assassinated that impelled the CIA to stop at all cost South Africa having more than one hosting of a World Cup per 20 year period.

The CIA, feeling guilty about Oswald and all, are trying to keep to the promise.... for old time's sake.

That's the only connection I can find between JFK and this thread...from reading 700 autobiographical books by Kennedy's Women.
I have the same abridged version of JFK and his women, too.  I read the same thing.  Camelot (the JFK presidency) strictly prohibited SA from hosting more than one RWC.  Said  it would endanger world security.  I thought I read in the Snowdon leaks the CIA is keeping Zuma in charge because no one in his right mind would put a major competition in a country wohch woul elect him.  It is all a plot hatched over 40 years ago.

The final part makes more sense then him simply appealing to the electorate.
I always thought it was the Mafia who got him elected.  So the mafia was his electorate, no?  Just like FIFA.

standard policy of slandering your rivals as witches and getting lookalikes to feature in grainy video stings with prostitutes.

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Post by Rowanbi Sat 04 Jun 2016, 9:41 am

7 1/2, you wrote that non-whites were no good at the white man's game and are now attempting to defend that with counter-accusations of racism. That's the problem here. You're denialism is entrenched, and your vehement hostility toward those who support attempts to encourage integration within South Africa rugby are an extention of the Apartheid era mentality.
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Post by Biltong Sat 04 Jun 2016, 9:45 am

Rowanbi wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:Basically they are stepping in because of the SARFU's own lack of efforts in this department. It is the union which should have facilitated full integration of the sport, but they have failed to do this, evidently. All I'm doing is supporting the government's stance. Whether anyone wishes to agree or disagree on that, there is no need for the hostility and accusations of racism. That comes across as overly-defensive and denialist.

Rowambi, what is your stance on the responsibility towards sport development in South Africa, what do you think governement should do, and what should the Sporting bodies do.

Who takes responsibility for sports development at what level?

As noted already, the SARFU should have facilitated integration within its own sport. Given the national team and Super Rugby squads remain dominated by just 9% of the population fully a generation after the end of Apartheid, it appears they have failed to do so effectively.  We must also recognise how the 91% majority, who were locked out of the sport for so long, may well perceive this as an extension of the Apartheid mentality. It is therefore a very sensitive issue to them, and I personally support the government's efforts to push things along. In fact, that's in the long-term interests of the sport in general.


Well, by virtue of that response debating this issue with you is a waste of time.

Thanks.
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Post by aucklandlaurie Sat 04 Jun 2016, 9:47 am

"Hating people because of their colour is wrong, and it doesnt matter which colour does the hating. Its just plain wrong."........Muhammed Ali.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sat 04 Jun 2016, 10:05 am

Rowanbi wrote:7 1/2, you wrote that non-whites were no good at the white man's game and are now attempting to defend that with counter-accusations of racism. That's the problem here. You're denialism is entrenched, and your vehement hostility toward those who support attempts to encourage integration within South Africa rugby are an extention of the Apartheid era mentality.

Do you just copy and paste this diatribe in response to anyone who disagrees with you regardless of their viewpoint, you said it to me and i've made no comment on the proposed quota.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sat 04 Jun 2016, 10:09 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:No he said that white South African men were generally bigger and stronger than native African men which holds some truth, it's hardly racist to point out that a white man would have no chance of winning the 100m.

Actually no I was arguing against that very point!

Apologies in that case.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 04 Jun 2016, 10:11 am

Rowanbi wrote:7 1/2, you wrote that non-whites were no good at the white man's game and are now attempting to defend that with counter-accusations of racism. That's the problem here. You're denialism is entrenched, and your vehement hostility toward those who support attempts to encourage integration within South Africa rugby are an extention of the Apartheid era mentality.

Ha, you didn't read or understand at all! I was supporting quotas arguing against fa I think that only boers are the great forward players. I was arguing against the very point that its a white mans game just as I'd argue against your point that Pacific Islanders are a superior race. Apology please, just for twisting my words rather than for your racism is fine.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 04 Jun 2016, 11:07 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:No he said that white South African men were generally bigger and stronger than native African men which holds some truth, it's hardly racist to point out that a white man would have no chance of winning the 100m.

Actually no I was arguing against that very point!

Apologies in that case.

Not a problem.

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Post by Rowanbi Sat 04 Jun 2016, 11:53 am

Biltong wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:Basically they are stepping in because of the SARFU's own lack of efforts in this department. It is the union which should have facilitated full integration of the sport, but they have failed to do this, evidently. All I'm doing is supporting the government's stance. Whether anyone wishes to agree or disagree on that, there is no need for the hostility and accusations of racism. That comes across as overly-defensive and denialist.

Rowambi, what is your stance on the responsibility towards sport development in South Africa, what do you think governement should do, and what should the Sporting bodies do.

Who takes responsibility for sports development at what level?

As noted already, the SARFU should have facilitated integration within its own sport. Given the national team and Super Rugby squads remain dominated by just 9% of the population fully a generation after the end of Apartheid, it appears they have failed to do so effectively.  We must also recognise how the 91% majority, who were locked out of the sport for so long, may well perceive this as an extension of the Apartheid mentality. It is therefore a very sensitive issue to them, and I personally support the government's efforts to push things along. In fact, that's in the long-term interests of the sport in general.


Well, by virtue of that response debating this issue with you is a waste of time.

Thanks.

I think it's a waste of time arguing about this with anybody who has a white privileged upbringing.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 04 Jun 2016, 12:17 pm

So you're an open racist Quentin?

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Post by Biltong Sat 04 Jun 2016, 12:24 pm

Rowanbi wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:Basically they are stepping in because of the SARFU's own lack of efforts in this department. It is the union which should have facilitated full integration of the sport, but they have failed to do this, evidently. All I'm doing is supporting the government's stance. Whether anyone wishes to agree or disagree on that, there is no need for the hostility and accusations of racism. That comes across as overly-defensive and denialist.

Rowambi, what is your stance on the responsibility towards sport development in South Africa, what do you think governement should do, and what should the Sporting bodies do.

Who takes responsibility for sports development at what level?

As noted already, the SARFU should have facilitated integration within its own sport. Given the national team and Super Rugby squads remain dominated by just 9% of the population fully a generation after the end of Apartheid, it appears they have failed to do so effectively.  We must also recognise how the 91% majority, who were locked out of the sport for so long, may well perceive this as an extension of the Apartheid mentality. It is therefore a very sensitive issue to them, and I personally support the government's efforts to push things along. In fact, that's in the long-term interests of the sport in general.


Well, by virtue of that response debating this issue with you is a waste of time.

Thanks.

I think it's a waste of time arguing about this with anybody who has a white privileged upbringing.

And you assume I had a priviledged upbringing?

I am sorry but regurgitating the same statement over and over without being prepared to take a point and offering reasonable debate before continuing doesn't constitute debate.

This forum is there for an opportunity to go beyond simply putting a point out there and then refusing to discuss the merits.

You have offered no debate, merely assumptions and a blanket statement that you support the government.
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Post by Rowanbi Sat 04 Jun 2016, 1:49 pm

Biltong wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:Basically they are stepping in because of the SARFU's own lack of efforts in this department. It is the union which should have facilitated full integration of the sport, but they have failed to do this, evidently. All I'm doing is supporting the government's stance. Whether anyone wishes to agree or disagree on that, there is no need for the hostility and accusations of racism. That comes across as overly-defensive and denialist.

Rowambi, what is your stance on the responsibility towards sport development in South Africa, what do you think governement should do, and what should the Sporting bodies do.

Who takes responsibility for sports development at what level?

As noted already, the SARFU should have facilitated integration within its own sport. Given the national team and Super Rugby squads remain dominated by just 9% of the population fully a generation after the end of Apartheid, it appears they have failed to do so effectively.  We must also recognise how the 91% majority, who were locked out of the sport for so long, may well perceive this as an extension of the Apartheid mentality. It is therefore a very sensitive issue to them, and I personally support the government's efforts to push things along. In fact, that's in the long-term interests of the sport in general.


Well, by virtue of that response debating this issue with you is a waste of time.

Thanks.

I think it's a waste of time arguing about this with anybody who has a white privileged upbringing.

And you assume I had a priviledged upbringing?

I am sorry but regurgitating the same statement over and over without being prepared to take a point and offering reasonable debate before continuing doesn't constitute debate.

This forum is there for an opportunity to go beyond simply putting a point out there and then refusing to discuss the merits.

You have offered no debate, merely assumptions and a blanket statement that you support the government.

Firstly, the white privileged upbringing comment was not directed at any individual in particular, hence the use of the indefinite pronoun 'anybody.' Indefinite pronouns are not used in reference to individuals, but in general reference.

I have been offering a reasonable debate regarding my support for the South African government's stance on this issue, but have encountered regurgitated counter-arguments and blanket statements ranging from the incompetence of the government in question to the physical attributes of whites in comparison to non-whites, as well as counter-accusations of racism, which I recall as being a common tactic of the denialists during the Apartheid era itself.



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Post by doctor_grey Sat 04 Jun 2016, 1:56 pm

Rowanbi wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:Basically they are stepping in because of the SARFU's own lack of efforts in this department. It is the union which should have facilitated full integration of the sport, but they have failed to do this, evidently. All I'm doing is supporting the government's stance. Whether anyone wishes to agree or disagree on that, there is no need for the hostility and accusations of racism. That comes across as overly-defensive and denialist.

Rowambi, what is your stance on the responsibility towards sport development in South Africa, what do you think governement should do, and what should the Sporting bodies do.

Who takes responsibility for sports development at what level?

As noted already, the SARFU should have facilitated integration within its own sport. Given the national team and Super Rugby squads remain dominated by just 9% of the population fully a generation after the end of Apartheid, it appears they have failed to do so effectively.  We must also recognise how the 91% majority, who were locked out of the sport for so long, may well perceive this as an extension of the Apartheid mentality. It is therefore a very sensitive issue to them, and I personally support the government's efforts to push things along. In fact, that's in the long-term interests of the sport in general.


Well, by virtue of that response debating this issue with you is a waste of time.

Thanks.

I think it's a waste of time arguing about this with anybody who has a white privileged upbringing.
No 7&1/2 wrote:So you're an open racist Quentin?
Who knows?
Who cares?
That is the old fallback position of anyone who is, or has been, part of the western integration cognoscenti for the past 60 or 70 years. Any deviation from the orthodox dogma or any dissenting opinion about the course of obtaining equality across the races in western culture is automatically racist the other way. It is quite amazing how they act just like those they accuse when they cannot articulate opinions of their own.

Considering the current course of this thread, I now wonder if this poster is making an argument for South Africa to host the 2023 RWC or making an argument against South Africa hosting the 2023 RWC.

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Post by Rowanbi Sat 04 Jun 2016, 2:03 pm

I am discussing the reason that South Africa is not being permitted to bid for 2023, which is what the government perceives to be a lack of effective racial integration within the sport. This is both relevant and topical. The vehement hostility in defence of the lack of racial integration that I have encountered here is indicative of the problem and prevents constructive debate.

7 1/2 states that 'the non-whites are no good at the white man's game' then accuses someone else of racism. That's the mentality here.
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Post by lostinwales Sat 04 Jun 2016, 2:05 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:Basically they are stepping in because of the SARFU's own lack of efforts in this department. It is the union which should have facilitated full integration of the sport, but they have failed to do this, evidently. All I'm doing is supporting the government's stance. Whether anyone wishes to agree or disagree on that, there is no need for the hostility and accusations of racism. That comes across as overly-defensive and denialist.

Rowambi, what is your stance on the responsibility towards sport development in South Africa, what do you think governement should do, and what should the Sporting bodies do.

Who takes responsibility for sports development at what level?

As noted already, the SARFU should have facilitated integration within its own sport. Given the national team and Super Rugby squads remain dominated by just 9% of the population fully a generation after the end of Apartheid, it appears they have failed to do so effectively.  We must also recognise how the 91% majority, who were locked out of the sport for so long, may well perceive this as an extension of the Apartheid mentality. It is therefore a very sensitive issue to them, and I personally support the government's efforts to push things along. In fact, that's in the long-term interests of the sport in general.


Well, by virtue of that response debating this issue with you is a waste of time.

Thanks.

I think it's a waste of time arguing about this with anybody who has a white privileged upbringing.
No 7&1/2 wrote:So you're an open racist Quentin?
Who knows?
Who cares?
That is the old fallback position of anyone who is, or has been, part of the western integration cognoscenti for the past 60 or 70 years.  Any deviation from the orthodox dogma or any dissenting opinion about the course of obtaining equality across the races in western culture is automatically racist the other way.  It is quite amazing how they act just like those they accuse when they cannot articulate opinions of their own.  

Considering the current course of this thread, I now wonder if this poster is making an argument for South Africa to host the 2023 RWC or making an argument against South Africa hosting the 2023 RWC.  

I think that's quite a stunning statement to put in anywhere. After all - can you imagine the response had someone said 'it's a waste of time arguing about this with anybody who has a poor non-white upbringing'

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Post by Biltong Sat 04 Jun 2016, 2:18 pm

The poor whites did not run South African rugby , seriously?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 04 Jun 2016, 2:47 pm

Rowanbi wrote:I am discussing the reason that South Africa is not being permitted to bid for 2023, which is what the government perceives to be a lack of effective racial integration within the sport. This is both relevant and topical. The vehement hostility in defence of the lack of racial integration that I have encountered here is indicative of the problem and prevents constructive debate.

7 1/2 states that 'the non-whites are no good at the white man's game' then accuses someone else of racism. That's the mentality here.

No I didn't, I was arguing against that point but it was too complex for you to understand even though you've had it explained to you Quentin! Meanwhile you've admitted your racist twice on this 1 thread.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sat 04 Jun 2016, 3:27 pm

Rowanbi wrote:I am discussing the reason that South Africa is not being permitted to bid for 2023, which is what the government perceives to be a lack of effective racial integration within the sport. This is both relevant and topical. The vehement hostility in defence of the lack of racial integration that I have encountered here is indicative of the problem and prevents constructive debate.

7 1/2 states that 'the non-whites are no good at the white man's game' then accuses someone else of racism. That's the mentality here.


If the South African Government genuinely see integration as so important, then why dont they do something (other then punitive) to promote integration ?

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Post by Biltong Sat 04 Jun 2016, 3:33 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:I am discussing the reason that South Africa is not being permitted to bid for 2023, which is what the government perceives to be a lack of effective racial integration within the sport. This is both relevant and topical. The vehement hostility in defence of the lack of racial integration that I have encountered here is indicative of the problem and prevents constructive debate.

7 1/2 states that 'the non-whites are no good at the white man's game' then accuses someone else of racism. That's the mentality here.


If the South African Government genuinely  see integration as so important, then why dont they do something (other then punitive) to promote integration ?

He doesn't get that Laurie
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Sat 04 Jun 2016, 3:57 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:I am discussing the reason that South Africa is not being permitted to bid for 2023, which is what the government perceives to be a lack of effective racial integration within the sport. This is both relevant and topical. The vehement hostility in defence of the lack of racial integration that I have encountered here is indicative of the problem and prevents constructive debate.

7 1/2 states that 'the non-whites are no good at the white man's game' then accuses someone else of racism. That's the mentality here.


If the South African Government genuinely  see integration as so important, then why dont they do something (other then punitive) to promote integration ?
Anybody with some sort of level of intelligence can see this has nothing to do with integration. Unfortunately there are people out there who believe only the whites can be racist.

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Post by Mr Fishpaste Sat 04 Jun 2016, 4:42 pm

Rowanbi wrote:Basically they are stepping in because of the SARFU's own lack of efforts in this department. It is the union which should have facilitated full integration of the sport, but they have failed to do this, evidently. All I'm doing is supporting the government's stance. Whether anyone wishes to agree or disagree on that, there is no need for the hostility and accusations of racism. That comes across as overly-defensive and denialist.

Indeed! You should take your own advice.

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Post by Mr Fishpaste Sat 04 Jun 2016, 4:48 pm

Rowanbi wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Rowanbi wrote:Basically they are stepping in because of the SARFU's own lack of efforts in this department. It is the union which should have facilitated full integration of the sport, but they have failed to do this, evidently. All I'm doing is supporting the government's stance. Whether anyone wishes to agree or disagree on that, there is no need for the hostility and accusations of racism. That comes across as overly-defensive and denialist.

Rowambi, what is your stance on the responsibility towards sport development in South Africa, what do you think governement should do, and what should the Sporting bodies do.

Who takes responsibility for sports development at what level?

As noted already, the SARFU should have facilitated integration within its own sport. Given the national team and Super Rugby squads remain dominated by just 9% of the population fully a generation after the end of Apartheid, it appears they have failed to do so effectively.  We must also recognise how the 91% majority, who were locked out of the sport for so long, may well perceive this as an extension of the Apartheid mentality. It is therefore a very sensitive issue to them, and I personally support the government's efforts to push things along. In fact, that's in the long-term interests of the sport in general.


Well, by virtue of that response debating this issue with you is a waste of time.

Thanks.

I think it's a waste of time arguing about this with anybody who has a white privileged upbringing.

Did you have a white privileged upbringing?

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Post by Mr Fishpaste Sat 04 Jun 2016, 5:00 pm

Rowanbi:

Let's get some things clear here. I, for one, have no issue with greater integration in SA rugby, and feel that SA rugby would benefit from a larger player pool. However, I do have great issue with the SA government and its rank hypocrisy. The days when the ANC had any moral high ground to stand on are long gone, and I get well irritated by people who are still thinking of the ANC of the 1990s, and believe that this quota business is in any way motivated by some sort of virtue....to put it bluntly, the ANC are no longer 'the good guys'. In fact many of the idealistic, principled members of the ANC who made it what it was, have been hounded out of the party...

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Post by Rowanbi Sat 04 Jun 2016, 5:48 pm

I think that's quite a stunning statement to put in anywhere. After all - can you imagine the response had someone said 'it's a waste of time arguing about this with anybody who has a poor non-white upbringing'



So you deny the existence of white privilege - even in South Africa. Shocked Erm

If the South African Government genuinely see integration as so important, then why dont they do something (other then punitive) to promote integration ?

They're obviously in a better position to judge the situation than anyone here.

Anybody with some sort of level of intelligence can see this has nothing to do with integration. Unfortunately there are people out there who believe only the whites can be racist.

Both comments are classic denialism

Did you have a white privileged upbringing?



No.

I, for one, have no issue with greater integration in SA rugby

But you then go on to disagree with the government's efforts to push things along due to the ongoing domination of the national team and Super Rugby franchises by the 9% white majority; and you would rather condemn the non-white government that consider just how offensive this might appear to much of the non-white majority in South Africa, many of whom will be old enough to remember the Apartheid era when the sport was the domain of the oppressor. This is the part that nobody here is getting, and undoubtedly it would be difficult for anyone with a white privileged upbringing to comprehend.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Sat 04 Jun 2016, 6:23 pm

You keep bringing up this irrelevant 9% of the population blah blah. Why don't you bring up the ethnic percentage of RUGBY players to gage better whether Black players are being blocked from playing rugby. If there's only a small % of black players then these quatos will do the opposite of integration as it will only give the go ahead for people to use cronyism and nepotism just as quotas have always done.

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Post by Rowanbi Sat 04 Jun 2016, 8:10 pm

Poignant ...

South Africa’s sports minister has announced that he will no longer “beg for racial transformation”, but will start forcing the country’s sporting federations to fulfil racial quotas.

Fikile Mbalula said in a speech on Sunday that the cricket, rugby, netball and athletics federations would be banned from bidding for any international tournaments until their numbers of black players improved.


South Africans of colour, more than 90% of the population, remain the minority in starting line-ups more than two decades after the end of draconian white-minority rule which prohibited them competing at the highest level.

For more than 50 years, black athletes were banned from representing their national sides. Thanks to these policies, it’s taken South African cricket more than 20 years to produce Temba Bavuma, who earlier this year became the first black cricketer to earn the country a century in Test cricket.

The spectre of exclusion still hangs over South African rugby, too: under Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer, who resigned in December, there were frequent complaints of black players being sidelined while white players were being played out in position.

But despite this reality, many pundits have expressed concern that Mbalula’s stance is too harsh and will merely harm South Africa sport at a time when the national rugby federation was planning to take part in next month’s bidding for the 2023 World Cup.

They say quotas go against the central tenet of professional sport – that an athlete be chosen on merit alone. But in a country like South Africa, sport has never been about merit.

For as long as I can remember, successive government post 1994 have always encouraged racial quotas in the selection of its national teams – for rugby it is 50% of the squad by 2019, and for cricket at least 4 of the 11 are required to “players of colour” – but failure to comply has had little or no consequences.

But at present, both the cricket and rugby teams would need to increase the number of black players threefold to meet the 50% transformation targets agreed upon by the unions and the government.

Ali Bacher, former managing director of South African cricket has come out in support of Mbalula, warning that “sporting federations have been long warned about a possible government backlash” for their failure to find and nurture black talent.

For South Africa, these quotas are vital means through which to reverse the apartheid policies of racial division and systemic disadvantage.

One doesn’t just wake up playing sport at a professional level. Talent needs to be identified and nurtured from a young age, and there need to be mechanisms in place to find aptitude at a grassroots level and make sure that it is developed.

The problem in South Africa lies in the fact that such mechanisms were designed to find only white players, and the authorities which have remained in place since the 1950s have never adequately invested in undoing this trend, meaning white players continue to have an unfair advantage.

What quotas do is force these federations to attract players of colour and develop them to a professional level. Mbalula’s plan means sporting authorities must become players in the national process of inclusivity and transformation.

In a country where there was a deliberate effort to suppress such talent, this is a necessary and overdue step forward.



http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/29/south-africa-racial-quotas-sport-rugby-springboks-cricket
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Post by Mr Fishpaste Sat 04 Jun 2016, 8:30 pm

Rowanbi wrote:  I, for one, have no issue with greater integration in SA rugby

But you then go on to disagree with the government's efforts to push things along due to the ongoing domination of the national team and Super Rugby franchises by the 9% white majority; and you would rather condemn the non-white government that consider just how offensive this might appear to much of the non-white majority in South Africa, many of whom will be old enough to remember the Apartheid era when the sport was the domain of the oppressor. This is the part that nobody here is getting, and undoubtedly it would be difficult for anyone with a white privileged upbringing to comprehend.

Because I don't believe that the government has any genuine interest in rugby or the racial transformation of it (or even the people of this country!)

If I was convinced that the government was seriously interested in transforming rugby for the sake of rugby and for the sake of the people of SA, I might feel differently.

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Post by Biltong Sat 04 Jun 2016, 8:44 pm

Fortunately I no longer care. Our roads are full of potholes, our electricity is struggling, our economy is f...d, our public healthcare system is gone, like everything else soon sport will be as well.

Then we can all sit back and continue to blame one another.

Hence for all those reasons, 'i just don't care.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Sat 04 Jun 2016, 9:55 pm

Biltong wrote:Fortunately I no longer care. Our roads are full of potholes, our electricity is struggling, our economy is f...d, our public healthcare system is gone, like everything else soon sport will be as well.

Then we can all sit back and continue to blame one another.

Hence for all those reasons, 'i just don't care.
That is exactly what exactly what these sorts of things are trying to do! While we argue over quotas and racism, the elite (who are of all ethnicity) sit back and laugh as they sip their expensive champagne and count their money. It infuriates me that people can't see when simple divide and conquer tactics are being employed!

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 05 Jun 2016, 1:59 am

Biltong wrote:Fortunately I no longer care. Our roads are full of potholes, our electricity is struggling, our economy is f...d, our public healthcare system is gone, like everything else soon sport will be as well.

Then we can all sit back and continue to blame one another.

Hence for all those reasons, 'i just don't care.
Well, that's a good thing.  Because otherwise our one poster would simply claim you are racist, too white (and therefore racist), have too much money (and therefore racist), or too white and with too much money (and therefore double racist).

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sun 05 Jun 2016, 8:44 am

Biltong wrote:Fortunately I no longer care. Our roads are full of potholes, our electricity is struggling, our economy is f...d, our public healthcare system is gone, like everything else soon sport will be as well.

Then we can all sit back and continue to blame one another.

Hence for all those reasons, 'i just don't care.


Sadly Biltong you are not the first South African to relate to me those exact same thoughts. If World Rugby ever awarded hosting of the 2023 Cup to South Africa that will be the moment that they (SARU) will be obligated to the ANC Government, who will in turn persecute Rugby out of existence.

World Rugby would do less damage to the sport (and South African rugby) if they awarded hosting rights to North Korea.

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Post by Rowanbi Sun 05 Jun 2016, 9:10 am

If World Rugby had a spine it would have pushed for more effective integration within the sport in South Africa itself.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 05 Jun 2016, 11:34 am

Wheres my apology?

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Post by SecretFly Sun 05 Jun 2016, 11:45 am

Rowanbi wrote:If World Rugby had a spine it would have pushed for more effective integration within the sport in South Africa itself.


ie - take the pressure off the duly elected sovereign South African government?  

Oh that would make World Rugby right popular.  A sport with still a lingering lick of its Imperialist past still in existence,  laying down the law again for black South Africa?  The ANC themselves would love the idea of power being take away from them again by a  Kitcheneresque sporting organisation based in Europe.


Last edited by SecretFly on Sun 05 Jun 2016, 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 05 Jun 2016, 12:02 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Biltong wrote:Fortunately I no longer care. Our roads are full of potholes, our electricity is struggling, our economy is f...d, our public healthcare system is gone, like everything else soon sport will be as well.

Then we can all sit back and continue to blame one another.

Hence for all those reasons, 'i just don't care.


 Sadly Biltong you are not the first South African to relate to me those exact same thoughts. If World Rugby ever awarded hosting of  the 2023 Cup to South Africa that will be the moment that they (SARU) will be obligated to the ANC Government, who will in turn persecute Rugby out of existence.

World Rugby would do less damage to the sport (and South African rugby) if they awarded hosting rights to North Korea.
The boss of North Korea loves Rugby.
2023 (expanded) Rugby World Cup for South Africa - Page 14 CBXMkA0UMAAh8qf


Unfortunately, the direction and governance in South Africa is not a laughing matter.  I truly feel for people there of all backgrounds.  And I agree completely with Laurie's comment.

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Post by FerN Sun 05 Jun 2016, 12:05 pm

Rowanbi wrote:The spectre of exclusion still hangs over South African rugby, too: under Springbok coach Heyneke Meyer, who resigned in December, there were frequent complaints of black players being sidelined while white players were being played out in position.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/29/south-africa-racial-quotas-sport-rugby-springboks-cricket

Can you name me 1 black player that complained?

The only non white player that I thought deserved a better shot, that didn't get it was Lionel Mapoe. He will probably get his shot this year though and he just might make it to the next RWC if he claims his spot.

Also the numbers must reflect the demographics of the country is messed up. In rugby and many other things that just won't work. If you were malnourished as a child, you are not going to be a professional rugby player. 50% of people in our country live under the poverty line and are malnourished, they will never make a professional rugby team, because by the time you get scouted you already can't compete. Even if you are lucky enough to live above the poverty line, that doesn't mean you will have all the necessities to get an equal footing to play rugby. You need to be quite wealthy to get the correct gym conditioning and suppliments etc. (This by the way is in high school)

Now go look at where the black Springboks or other professional rugby players were schooled - 90% of them are from traditional rugby schools, which means their parents were well off to begin with to get them there or a good enough school from where they would have been poached from.

So yes, there might be a systematic exclusion for rugby - but that can not be placed at the feet of SARU. If 50% of your country is malnourished something else is wrong. Yes, yes we know it is a legacy of apartheid. But that need fixing first before you end up with dashed hopes like some of the sporting stars. How many players were tried out too early and ended up with long term injuries just to make up the numbers. And then they also get branded as "quota-players" when they could have become "merit" selections later on, but that stigma sticks with them.

Then we also have players here that make it far enough and you can see the talent where the doctor tells them they shouldn't compete anymore because of health reasons that can be linked to malnutrition in their early childhood to youth.

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Post by Biltong Sun 05 Jun 2016, 7:46 pm

Fern, you're wasting your time, this guys still thinks Apartheid is ruling SA. Nothing will change his mind
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Post by Pot Hale Sun 05 Jun 2016, 8:25 pm

Biltong wrote:Fern, you're wasting your time, this guys still thinks Apartheid is ruling SA. Nothing will change his mind

Going back to the thread topic, Bilt, do you think SA should be awarded RWC '23 assuming SARU get a go ahead to bid?
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Post by Biltong Sun 05 Jun 2016, 8:28 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Biltong wrote:Fern, you're wasting your time, this guys still thinks Apartheid is ruling SA. Nothing will change his mind

Going back to the thread topic, Bilt, do you think SA should be awarded RWC '23 assuming SARU get a go ahead to bid?

I honestly don't care.

If you understood my personal situation which I am not going to divulge here , I am going off the grid, so I don't give a Poopie
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Post by Rowanbi Sun 05 Jun 2016, 9:56 pm

Another excellent article...

“The national rugby team of South Africa, commonly named the Springboks, is predominantly Caucasian, which is the minority of the country’s population.”
“This indicates that the powers that be in the South African Rugby Union (SARU) show a blatant disregard for the racial demographics of the country by continuously selecting Caucasian players ahead of players of color, noting the reason for this as being that the quality of ‘colored’ players in South Africa are far and few in between.”
“In reality, SARU is still a front for racial discrimination against people of African ethnic groups. It is still ruled by the remnants of the white Apartheid era and refuses to share this great sport with the majority. It is for this reason that the quota system is not only fair and just, but also necessary.”
“If they do not want to submit to the truly just notion of transformation, then we will take what is ours, by right, with force.”
This is a colorful little quote that I encountered a few months ago while I was busy doing some research on what’s hot and what’s not in South African rugby.
This was said in the comments section of an article dealing on transformation in the country back in 2007 before that year’s World Cup. As you can see, the writer of this comment is full of conviction, high on confidence and loyal to the cause to a fault. Suffice to say, if this is the true mentality of those fighting for the complete implementation of the quota system, then I really only have one response.
Great, just do it already.
Everyone has to stop nagging and threatening about doing it and just pull up their socks and do it. There is an old saying, and by old I mean during the early 1900s, where American farm folk in Omaha would say “A little money coming in is worse than none.”
This saying ties in perfectly with the ongoing situation regarding the racial issues within South African sport. For far too long has this dilemma transfigured itself into an array of threats and promises. As most South Africans will tell you, threats and promises are pretty much what our Rainbow Nation is about, only now it’s become stale and infuriatingly annoying.
A little background on myself as I feel it is necessary in order to put my point across. I was born on the 17th of June in 1994, the very same year that South Africa entered into the realms of democracy. As the dragon was dispatched by the cold steel of King Arthur’s legendary blade, Apartheid was well and truly slain.
As such, I, along with millions of others were born into this country as children of the new age, of a new, brighter South Africa. I cannot presume to know the struggles of my forefathers during the time of Apartheid and luckily I don’t need to.
The beauty of the time of my birth and upbringing is the fact that I have lived with people of all races and cultures my entire life. From being schooled alongside those who hail from other ethnic backgrounds to currently working with them in my day job every single day of every single year, my generation has been blessed with the enlightenment that comes from the bliss of peaceful co-existence.
Because of this we do not necessarily share the views of our fathers or their fathers or the fathers before theirs. While it is an undeniable truth that certain innate aspects of heritage is passed down from generation to generation and some take these teachings as truth and follow them – after all, the words of your own blood have the tendency to engrave themselves deep into your own soul – and yet, some of us decide our own personal views and carve out our own paths filled with principle and morality.
An honest self-assessment puts me onto the latter category.
This article is not about who is right and about who is wrong regarding the ageless dispute surrounding our rugby. This is not a judgement between the notions of black and white. I am not here to try and convince anyone about who’s right and who’s wrong. The matter of our racial issues in South African rugby is a grey area with many truths going both ways, multiple good points of factual and perceptive reasoning sitting on either side of the fence.
In a game of rugby there are always points for and against for both teams participating on the field. We can (and already do) have endless discussions about who’s fault it is that we sit with this problem in all of our sports in South Africa today. There is nothing more to say that hasn’t been said.
So, with all that in mind, we look back to the 31-man Springbok Rugby World Cup 2015 squad wherein nine players of colour were selected, assembling a grand total of 29 per cent of the squad in its entirety and setting the record for the World Cup squad with the most players of colour selected in our history in the sport.
No doubt many of you have heard or read of the outrage that certain political parties have displayed at the shortcoming of the intended 30 per cent quota requirement. One party has even gone as far as to threaten to take the SARU to court and suspend the Boks from participating in this year’s global event. Make of this whatever you will.
My issue is that this problem has become insidiously poisonous instead of being harmlessly disturbing to a degree. Most rugby-loving South Africans, of which there are many, have embraced the fact that transformation is necessary and inevitable. We are at peace with the reality that the quota system will be enforced and soon.
The annoying thing is that it seems that it isn’t going anywhere and hasn’t been for quite some time. It is rather akin to a mischievous eight year old boy who broke his father’s sporting trophy, waiting for the penance of a well worked spanking on its way, only to find himself waiting for hours in his room while shivering at the prospect of imminent hand to buttocks retribution.
For twenty long years we have awaited this moment and for twenty long years we have even started to forget about it. But then just when things reach a climax, the World Cup being a prime example, we are simultaneously bombarded with threats and promises of the upcoming clean sweep by every politician and his brother with a microphone.
I speak now from personal experience, nothing pisses South Africans off more than things not getting done when such a big song and dance was given about it. This underlines my true point of frustration.
Should transformation be implemented from the lowest level upwards? Or should transformation be implemented as a quick fix for quick results via the coveted quota system?
It doesn’t matter, the course of action has already been decided and no one can change that other than World Rugby themselves, which I can assure you, they will never do.
What’s done is done and, if everything goes according to SARU’s plans, half of the Springbok match day squad will be represented by 50 per cent of players of colour by the 2019 Rugby World Cup. I reiterate, if things go according to plan.
My view on this is rather simple, if something’s broken then don’t continue breaking it and the quota system will do just that. Then again, continuing down the road we’ve tread in the last two decades will have the exact same effect.
The truth is that SARU is responsible for the fact that black players are not where they should be. They haven’t done enough to ensure that the disadvantaged, poverty-struck masses have legitimate opportunities to make something out of their rugby aspirations. They haven’t done enough to promote the game of rugby in the poor and rural areas of the country.
Perhaps they haven’t done enough to identify and evolve the enormous pool coloured talent currently plying their trade in school and club teams. These are things we all know. SARU hasn’t taken its own responsibilities seriously and are now suffering from the consequences.
In the same vain, the quota system will not fix the problem at all. Why? Because it is a quick, easy solution involving no hard work and the lack of proper planning. If those in favour of the quota system had their way, they would send 16 players of colour to the World Cup next month regardless of all the questions they must answer first. Are they ready for a tournament with stakes as high as this one? Are the players selected the best in their position? Or will they even feel merited in the green and gold?
What should be done is the pressure currently applied to SARU to come up with enough quota players to satisfy the masses should be applied to SARU’s duties to the grassroots level in the country, the bottom of the pyramid so to speak. Supervise their efforts in the rural rugby communities with an iron first. Take the long term solution for a long term result.
Instead what they’re doing is throwing fuel to the proverbial flames, goading honest, rugby-loving people to participating in their self-serving protests. It is a slow poison that bitters even the most loyal of rugby men and women, in turn causing them to be jittery, ready to pounce on any wrong word spoken. The slow poison is annoying and it cultivates an edge we really could live without.
Still, despite all of our dreams and ideals, the bed has been made and we are meant to sleep in it whether we want to or not. My personal views on this matter carry no real relevance and neither does anyone else’s. The plan has been set in motion and so it shall be.
My only request is that if the quota system is truly the path we have chosen, get on with it. Having a bark and no bite is stirring up more trouble than the idea itself. So, please, for the love of all that is pure and decent in this world, get on with it.
We’ll handle the outcome when the time comes. It can either work or it won’t. Sometimes, to build something new you must destroy the old and lay the foundations.


http://www.theroar.com.au/2015/09/02/quotas-south-african-rugby-just-already/
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Post by Pot Hale Sun 05 Jun 2016, 11:50 pm

Biltong wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Biltong wrote:Fern, you're wasting your time, this guys still thinks Apartheid is ruling SA. Nothing will change his mind

Going back to the thread topic, Bilt, do you think SA should be awarded RWC '23 assuming SARU get a go ahead to bid?

I honestly don't care.

If you understood my personal situation which I am not going to divulge here , I am going off the grid, so I don't give a Poopie

Fair enough. Obviously I don't know your personal situation, but hope things work out ok.

Cheers.
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Post by Mr Fishpaste Mon 06 Jun 2016, 11:27 am

Rowanbi wrote:Another excellent article...


http://www.theroar.com.au/2015/09/02/quotas-south-african-rugby-just-already/

Strange you should say that about an article that says that quotas for top-level rugby is "a slow poison that bitters even the most loyal of rugby men and women"...

And the essence of the article being: right or wrong, there's nothing that can be done about quotas, so just get on with it.

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Post by Rowanbi Mon 06 Jun 2016, 11:46 am

Erm You've missed the point once again, Mr Fishpaste.
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Post by lostinwales Mon 06 Jun 2016, 11:55 am

Rowanbi wrote:I think that's quite a stunning statement to put in anywhere. After all - can you imagine the response had someone said 'it's a waste of time arguing about this with anybody who has a poor non-white upbringing'



So you deny the existence of white privilege - even in South Africa. Shocked Erm

I just think that as soon as you discount the opinion of a set of people because of their race or background then you are on very difficult ground.

You don't have to agree with the other guy but to claim they cannot talk because of some external reason suggests that your own argument is weak.

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Post by Rowanbi Mon 06 Jun 2016, 12:12 pm

Rubbish. It's obviously very difficult for those with a white privileged upbringing to understand where the South African government is coming from on this issue. You're not dealing with the legacy of the Apartheid system in your every day life. You don't have memories of that malignant era and did not once view the sport as a symbol of white rule, and neither did your parents and grandparents. You therefore cannot empathise with non-whites who continue to watch their national teams perform on the international stage with mostly white players. & you cannot empathise with a non-white who joins a team or club dominated by the privileged 9% minority; a legacy of the Apartheid era itself.

That doesn't mean you are not entitled to your view. But it should be taken in that context, and you've certainly done your utmost to stifle mine. devil
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Post by SecretFly Mon 06 Jun 2016, 12:37 pm

Maybe it's the Procrastination Rowanbi?  Maybe things always begin to unravel in communications and in terms of mood when supposed decisions and programs and policies linger, and get delayed, and hang around corners waiting for the most inopportune  times to come to the surface again to rattle the sabre.

There is much too much junk time-filling chatter going on in the world (and yep, I'd readily admit that in my small way I'm a big part of it)  Yappers yapping on social media, on National Airwaves on Twitspeak and Facelesspage............ all waffling about things that probably should have been done years ago had the necessary authorities the b-alls to be what they were elected to be - without friction, without cat calling, without the lingering show.

"Oh South Africa is going to try or should try to host the 2023 World Cup!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Great news!  Let's all get behind it!!!........................"
"Hmmm - hang on here.  This is your Government Speaking.  We've just pulled out this note that's been in our bottom desk drawer for a few years.  Quotas???  - Anyone??  NO???  - Hasn't been done yet? - That's a pity.  We have to close down the Happy Show so."

Get on with being a damn Government might be my first comment to the South African Government.  Stop lulling on things and blaming everyone else for the delays.  Get it done and live with the consequences, the spite, the public outcry, the divisive rancour or the pay-back in the voting booths.

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Post by Sin é Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:03 pm

Rowanbi, I think you (and SA Gov) are being unrealistic in your expectations that SA will be completely integrated within 20 or 30 years of the end of apartheid. It will be more like 50 or 60 years and I think forcing the situation is only making it worse. It takes time. In the US for example,in their Womens' National Soccer team, there is only one non-white player. In the mens, they have one black player with a couple of hispanics. Yet, most other sports in the US aredominated by black players.

My point is that people will develop their own interests and want to play what they are good at. If they want to force this anywhere, it should be at underage level, not at the top of the sport.
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Post by Sin é Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:05 pm

Just seen a clip of welcome of Ireland squad in Capetown. Looking at that reception, they need to introduce quotas for their receptions - not a white person in sight!
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Post by SecretFly Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:08 pm

Laugh

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Post by SecretFly Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:11 pm

Have you a link to that Sin? Can't get anything on my google.

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Post by Sin é Mon 06 Jun 2016, 1:20 pm

SecretFly wrote:Have you a link to that Sin?  Can't get anything on my google.

Irish Rugby twitter account

https://twitter.com/IrishRugby/status/739765161339326464
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Join date : 2011-04-01
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2023 (expanded) Rugby World Cup for South Africa - Page 14 Empty Re: 2023 (expanded) Rugby World Cup for South Africa

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