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England's Squad for Wales Game on 29th May

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Post by LondonTiger Sat 07 May 2016, 7:06 pm

Suggestions today that Jones will name an initial training squad tomorrow for this fixture. While losing AP semi-finalists have not been completely ruled out from the fixture, it while be interesting to see who is named.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 07 May 2016, 8:15 pm

I'd give Brown as big a rest as possible following his recent knackered out performances. TBF a lot of the England RWC squad who were still involved for the 6 Nations look exhausted and could do with not being beaten up in this pointless fixture...

1.Marler, Waller
2.Hartley, Taylor
3.Brookes, Hill
4.Attwood, ?
5.Lawes, Symons?
6.Robshaw, Wilson
7.Kvesic, Harrison
8.Clifford, Morgan

9.Care... One of Youngs/Robson/Simpson/Chudley/Spencer will be free on the 28th
10.Ford, Cipriani

11.Yarde, Lewington
12.Devoto, Mallinder?
13.Joseph, James/Lowe
14.Roko, Walker
15.Watson, Pennell

If the coaches want more front row than that for this camp then Henry Thomas and Haywood should have a good shot.

The toughest one was second row for me. Attwood is still searching back from injury, although I thought he showed up we in defence today, and Symons really hasn't had the season we expected but is still a talent. Sean Robinson is of course being protected for the 2017 Lions tour.

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Post by Alex_Germany Sat 07 May 2016, 9:18 pm

I suppose Wales will be able to put out a strong team. The provinces aren't involved in anything and Roberts and North will be available.

This will be an interesting test of England's strength in depth.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sat 07 May 2016, 9:34 pm

I would like to see Henry Slade get a chance against Wales, and at least get on the plane to aus and possible starting at least one test.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 07 May 2016, 9:38 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:I would like to see Henry Slade get a chance against Wales, and at least get on the plane to aus and possible starting at least one test.

Chances of going to Oz must be very high. Given how well Exeter played today I would doubt he'd be available for Wales

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Post by bedfordwelsh Sat 07 May 2016, 9:38 pm

Totally pointless fixture
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Post by LondonTiger Sun 08 May 2016, 9:56 am

From the Telegraph:

Jones will on Monday announce a squad of around 20 players to train in Brighton for three days next week ahead of the Test against Wales on May 29 and then the Australia tour.

Players from Saracens, Wasps, Exeter and Leicester, who will all be involved in the Aviva Premiership play-offs, will not be considered and it is thought that a number of uncapped players will be included.

Some of them could find themselves on the Saxons tour, with Jones having said: “I see that as a development tour, not for second tier players. There are some guys who are probably third or fourth in their position who won’t go on that Saxons tour, because we need to be looking at guys who are fifth or sixth and whether they can handle that international Test match environment.”

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Post by Welly Sun 08 May 2016, 1:35 pm

Brighton training squad.
Forwards
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Tommy Taylor (Sale Sharks)
Backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)
Alex Lewington (London Irish)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Micky Young (Newcastle Falcons)

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Post by Welly Sun 08 May 2016, 1:38 pm

Really like the idea of the saxons being for 3rd/4th choice in positions.

Looking at training squad it would suggest that
Haley
Lewington
Ewels
Sinkler

Are def in the saxons (Hopefully)

I'm guessing Young is just making up the numbers and be a 9 to go against care in training.

Maybe a team V Wales (If no top 4 players)
1) Marler
2) Hartley
3) Brookes
4) Attwood
5) Lawes
6) Robshaw
7) Clifford
8) Harrison
9) Care
10) Ford
11) Roko
12) Devoto
13) JJ
14) Watson
15) Brown

16) Taylor
17) Sinkler
18) Hill
19) Ewels
20) Kvesic
21) Young (eww)
22) Cips
23) Lewington/Yarde

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 08 May 2016, 2:11 pm

Welly wrote: Really like the idea of the saxons being for 3rd/4th choice in positions...
Jones is actually saying 3rd/4th choices won't be considered for that tour. He wants to look at 5th and 6th.

As far as I know, that's not how it's structured under the EPS agreement.

This year may be more flexible, since there wasn't a Saxons squad officially named alongside the main EPS. However, when England coaches have named their Main and Saxons squads in the past, they've work under the constraint that any replacements for the main squad must come from first from the Saxons. In short, the Saxons needs to be 3rd/4th choices because they are your next line of availability.

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Post by Welly Sun 08 May 2016, 2:12 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Welly wrote: Really like the idea of the saxons being for 3rd/4th choice in positions...
Jones is actually saying 3rd/4th choices won't be considered for that tour. He wants to look at 5th and 6th.

As far as I know, that's not how it's structured under the EPS agreement.

This year may be more flexible, since there wasn't a Saxons squad officially named alongside the main EPS. However, when England coaches have named their Main and Saxons squads in the past, they've work under the constraint that any replacements for the main squad must come from first from the Saxons. In short, the Saxons needs to be 3rd/4th choices because they are your next line of availability.

Hell even better IMO.

I didn't know there was any constraints to the Saxons, and that replacements for main squad must come from the saxons.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 08 May 2016, 2:16 pm

3 THs... I wonder what Alex Walller has done to Eddies mother!

Other than that and the screaming in the my head when I read Micky Young it's a decent looking squad though. I desperately hope that one of Youngs, Robson or Chudley are called up for training next week despite the decision not to select guys involved in the play-offs. One of them is guaranteed to be free and all are much more deserving.

That's probably a good bet for the 23, Welly. Given he has been in squads already I expect that Kvesic will be at 7 with Clifford at 8 and Harrison on the bench.

I really hope that Brown is given a rest with Watson at FB and Roko/Yarde on the wings. I can't see it though, I expect this game is being viewed as a chance to get some guys such as Hartley, Marler, Brown and Clifford into form again for Oz.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 08 May 2016, 2:17 pm

Wales will name their squad for this match and the NZ tour on Tuesday. I'm not sure who's unavailable, North, Roberts and Charteris? Important players for us, whilst Halfpenny and Tips are out injured.

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Post by Welly Sun 08 May 2016, 2:18 pm

North has no games left now for saints.
Roberts is playing next weekend but no games after.

You should have both available for England game if Gats wants them.

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Post by Blueschief Sun 08 May 2016, 2:23 pm

Hope Gats picks an experimental side, otherwise it's pretty pointless. Be good to have a look at some of the Dragons backs, and see how Moriarty and Ellis Jenkins work together.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 08 May 2016, 2:24 pm

North and Roberts are available mikey.

On Charteris, I've no idea what's happening! The Top 14 play-offs running through quarters, semis and the final. They are on the consecutive weekends starting on the 11th June and ending on the 24th June. In other words the exact same time that Wales are on tour. The European Cup final is this coming weekend. I'd guess that his contract won't prevent him touring (i.e. he'd miss the Top 14 play-offs) but I'm not certain.

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Post by Alex_Germany Sun 08 May 2016, 2:36 pm

king_carlos wrote:North and Roberts are available mikey.

On Charteris, I've no idea what's happening! The Top 14 play-offs running through quarters, semis and the final. They are on the consecutive weekends starting on the 11th June and ending on the 24th June. In other words the exact same time that Wales are on tour. The European Cup final is this coming weekend. I'd guess that his contract won't prevent him touring (i.e. he'd miss the Top 14 play-offs) but I'm not certain.

21 and 28 May are the last two days of the French regular season. So it's unlikely that France based players will be available.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 08 May 2016, 3:01 pm

Injuries aside I guess it's just Charteris then. England are likely to be workout their Sarries contingent assuming they make the final?

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Post by Alex_Germany Sun 08 May 2016, 3:17 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Injuries aside I guess it's just Charteris then. England are likely to be workout their Sarries contingent assuming they make the final?

England will be without any players from the two finalists, and possibly without any players from the tops 4. That's going to be quite tough.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sun 08 May 2016, 3:17 pm

Dear me Micky Young

I guess Eddie wants Wales to have the ball all the time....

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 08 May 2016, 3:46 pm

Will North and Roberts be available this beeing a non internationao weekend?

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Post by bedfordwelsh Sun 08 May 2016, 5:01 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Will North and Roberts be available this beeing a non internationao weekend?

Along with Francis and Davies, plus also JD2 as his contract wonth be finished officially.
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Post by Cumbrian Sun 08 May 2016, 6:22 pm

Welly wrote:Really like the idea of the saxons being for 3rd/4th choice in positions.

Looking at training squad it would suggest that
Haley
Lewington
Ewels
Sinkler

Are def in the saxons (Hopefully)

I'm guessing Young is just making up the numbers and be a 9 to go against care in training.

Maybe a team V Wales (If no top 4 players)
1) Marler
2) Hartley
3) Brookes
4) Attwood
5) Lawes
6) Robshaw
7) Clifford
8) Harrison
9) Care
10) Ford
11) Roko
12) Devoto
13) JJ
14) Watson
15) Brown

16) Taylor
17) Sinkler
18) Hill
19) Ewels
20) Kvesic
21) Young (eww)
22) Cips
23) Lewington/Yarde

I can't work out whether this will be the squad for the Wales game, or if it will be added to.  It looks like a complete squad to me though.  If this is the case, it is a bit of a snub to Ben Morgan (assuming he is not injured), there isn't actually a full time number 8 in there.  Although I know that Eddie has said that he sees Clifford in that role.

So I'd swap Clifford and Harrison around, otherwise spot on. It's a pretty strong team, all things considered. Reckon they will give Wales a good game and could even sneak it.
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Post by Cumbrian Sun 08 May 2016, 6:27 pm

Pleased for Mike Haley and Ewels too, they have sneaked under the radar a little, but I am a big fan of theirs. Ewels is another off the second row assembly line, spoilt for choice there at the moment.
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Post by Welly Sun 08 May 2016, 6:38 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
Welly wrote:Really like the idea of the saxons being for 3rd/4th choice in positions.

Looking at training squad it would suggest that
Haley
Lewington
Ewels
Sinkler

Are def in the saxons (Hopefully)

I'm guessing Young is just making up the numbers and be a 9 to go against care in training.

Maybe a team V Wales (If no top 4 players)
1) Marler
2) Hartley
3) Brookes
4) Attwood
5) Lawes
6) Robshaw
7) Clifford
8) Harrison
9) Care
10) Ford
11) Roko
12) Devoto
13) JJ
14) Watson
15) Brown

16) Taylor
17) Sinkler
18) Hill
19) Ewels
20) Kvesic
21) Young (eww)
22) Cips
23) Lewington/Yarde

I can't work out whether this will be the squad for the Wales game, or if it will be added to.  It looks like a complete squad to me though.  If this is the case, it is a bit of a snub to Ben Morgan (assuming he is not injured), there isn't actually a full time number 8 in there.  Although I know that Eddie has said that he sees Clifford in that role.

So I'd swap Clifford and Harrison around, otherwise spot on. It's a pretty strong team, all things considered. Reckon they will give Wales a good game and could even sneak it.

What has Morgan done really?

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Post by LondonTiger Sun 08 May 2016, 8:46 pm

Sinkler is a decent TH, but has he ever played LH?

That there is not proper cover for all positions is reflected by the discussion on the radio where they certainly intimated that some players from losing semi-finalists will be called up for the Wales game.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 09 May 2016, 9:30 am

Morgan is a top class player when on form and FIT, but he is still limited to being a carrier only. And when is he ever really FIT.

Harrison and Clifford both offer excellent carrying capabilities but much more around the park - breakdown etc. Far more like SH style back rowers... (yes one of them is a SH back rower)

And both can play 6-7-8

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Post by Poorfour Mon 09 May 2016, 9:44 am

LondonTiger wrote:Sinkler is a decent TH, but has he ever played LH?  

That there is not proper cover for all positions is reflected by the discussion on the radio where they certainly intimated that some players from losing semi-finalists will be called up for the Wales game.

That seems likely. It was rumoured that Sinckler could play LH when he first burst out of the Academy, but I have never seen him play in that position and it would be a huge ask for him to start now...
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 09 May 2016, 9:47 am

Touch harsh on Morgan. Fitness is obviously the biggest issue, some down to himself, sometimes not like the leg break. Lets not forget he was neck and neck with Vunipola for a good while and was impressing. Has a load extra speed, lineout option and a good defender. If he gets his fitness up again and gets the run of games...

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 09 May 2016, 9:51 am

I rate Morgan right up there at his peak. Id love to see him rampaging for England again, but im just not sure we will. Fingers crossed though.

And don't forget theres a sizeable shadow from the Wasps back row creeping in to the fore as further competition soon.

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 09 May 2016, 9:54 am

To me it looks like this squad needs to be added to in a few positions. Is Ewels a 2nd rower? I thought he was a back row/no.8?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 09 May 2016, 9:54 am

No I agree with that I'm not sure he'll recapture it. And Beaumont of course.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 09 May 2016, 9:58 am

Yeah I forgot about Beaumont..

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Post by Poorfour Mon 09 May 2016, 10:01 am

The big question with Morgan is whether he fits the template of what Eddie is looking for. It's clear that the direction he's heading is towards a more mobile, ball-handling pack on the SH template rather than a traditional English one.

It's also notable that Eddie is demanding a higher workrate - he was positively gleeful that in the France game he had worked Robshaw to the point where he could barely stand, and if he can do that to one of the game's most industrious workhorses, Morgan wouldn't have stood a chance. OK, the demands on the No 8 are a little different, but I think even at his pre-injury peak Morgan would have needed to find some extra fitness to keep up.

The positive side for Morgan is that Eddie has a track record of using lots of players, and will have made his expectations clear. If Morgan can meet them, there's a good chance that an opportunity will arise.
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Post by LordDowlais Mon 09 May 2016, 10:24 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:Totally pointless fixture


I can think of two million reasons why it is not pointless. Smile


Although the players could do without this fixture. OK

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 09 May 2016, 10:49 am

Poorfour wrote: It's clear that the direction he's heading is towards a more mobile, ball-handling pack on the SH template rather than a traditional English one.
doesn't this contradict what EJ was saying earlier though. He wants to return to traditional English strengths, big bruising packs. At least that's what I thought he was on about. Big units with a high workrate etc. That's why he was showing interest in guys like Ewers etc. And dropping guys like Wood.

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Post by cb Mon 09 May 2016, 10:49 am

Good chance to play Watson at full-back.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 09 May 2016, 10:50 am

Morgan has done sod all this year. Given the leg break and the performance of Gloucs this isn't surprising. If you add in the way he often tends to drift in and out of games (and look better at International level than club) and then look at the performances of the alternatives (The best performing fatty with an eye for the try line being in Exeter and nobody matching the all round BV performances) then right now you would have to think that he's a long way from EJ's thoughts.

Shame though. At his best hes very good

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 09 May 2016, 11:00 am

So, best no.8s in the country that are England Qualified (or will be).
I am sure that I am forgetting some -
B.V., Hughes, Waldrom, Easter, T.Harrison, Clifford, J.Beaumont, B.Morgan

That's is quite a quality list, even if you take the older chaps out (Easter and Waldrom). B.Morgan is a long way down.

He's had some great England games and could step up the order if he regains form. But as someone said, he's always looked better for England than Glouces - so hard to prove form.

I would expect BV and Clifford to go on senior tour and Harrison/Beaumont to go on Saxons.

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Post by Cumbrian Mon 09 May 2016, 11:11 am

Welly wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:
Welly wrote:Really like the idea of the saxons being for 3rd/4th choice in positions.

Looking at training squad it would suggest that
Haley
Lewington
Ewels
Sinkler

Are def in the saxons (Hopefully)

I'm guessing Young is just making up the numbers and be a 9 to go against care in training.

Maybe a team V Wales (If no top 4 players)
1) Marler
2) Hartley
3) Brookes
4) Attwood
5) Lawes
6) Robshaw
7) Clifford
8) Harrison
9) Care
10) Ford
11) Roko
12) Devoto
13) JJ
14) Watson
15) Brown

16) Taylor
17) Sinkler
18) Hill
19) Ewels
20) Kvesic
21) Young (eww)
22) Cips
23) Lewington/Yarde

I can't work out whether this will be the squad for the Wales game, or if it will be added to.  It looks like a complete squad to me though.  If this is the case, it is a bit of a snub to Ben Morgan (assuming he is not injured), there isn't actually a full time number 8 in there.  Although I know that Eddie has said that he sees Clifford in that role.

So I'd swap Clifford and Harrison around, otherwise spot on. It's a pretty strong team, all things considered. Reckon they will give Wales a good game and could even sneak it.

What has Morgan done really?

As others have said he and Billy were neck and neck not that long ago. I would agree that he isn't back to his best but I would still say he is at least one of the top 4 or 5 No.8s in the country. Eddie evidently disagrees though and I would bow to his superior knowledge (although saying that, he has also picked Young...)
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Post by Welly Mon 09 May 2016, 11:49 am

Morgan has done nothing since then, been injured and even for his club isn't the definate starting 8.

Eddie has said he is giving players a clean slate and that players shouldn't rest on previous honors.

Would say ATM for Eddie he is behind
Vunipola
Beaumont
Clifford
Harrison
At least

Hell might be neck and neck with Waldrom

Then will be behind Hughes come June.

After that how many English EQP 8's are there.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 09 May 2016, 12:02 pm

How about?

1 Marler
2 Taylor
3 Brookes / Hill
4 Attwood
5 Lawes
6 Clifford
7 Kvesic
8 Harrison

9 Care
10 Ford
11 Lewington
12 Devoto
13 Joseph
14 Rokodugunni
15 Watson

Gives Hartley, Robshaw etc an extra few weeks rest.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 09 May 2016, 12:19 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:How about?  

1 Marler
2 Taylor
3 Brookes / Hill
4 Attwood
5 Lawes
6 Clifford
7 Kvesic
8 Harrison

9 Care
10 Ford
11 Lewington
12 Devoto
13 Joseph
14 Rokodugunni
15 Watson

Gives Hartley, Robshaw etc an extra few weeks rest.


Hartley doesn't need the rest, he needs the game time.

Is Lanchbury injured, he seems to have slipped from everybodys darling to Who?. Is he really behind a just back from injury Attwood?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 09 May 2016, 12:27 pm

Wasps are in the top 4, so Launchbury unavailable.

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 09 May 2016, 12:35 pm

Well Launchbury is involved in the top 4....may be in the Prem final still.
I think he perhaps has dropped off a bit, but that's down to his own high standards. And that's also coincided with the rise of Kruis and Itoje. I fully expect Joe will tour still....Lawes is the 2nd rower along with Attwood that have things to prove.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 09 May 2016, 12:54 pm

WPI,

Im just thinking about Hartleys head issues. I know he wouldn't be in the squad if he hadn't been given the correct time out...but in a game like this is it essential?

I do appreciate gametime is essential, but sometimes it has to be a common sense approach. It means Jones can have a look at what Taylor could bring to the party.

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 09 May 2016, 1:03 pm

Basically we're looking at a Saints/Quins hybrid team with some token players from Bath, Glaws and Sale? I think England could put out a competitive team there, the strength in depth shines through.

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Post by englandglory4ever Mon 09 May 2016, 1:15 pm

On paper the 'alternative' England team looks quite good. Glad Mickey Young is getting a look-in but surprised Mitch Lees is not there. I'd have him instead of Attwood who has never really delivered in an England shirt. What is most worrying is that putting up a rookie side against the full Wales team could be disastrous. From 50 minutes in the England side could be shot and Wales go on to put a cricket score on us. Not nice.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 09 May 2016, 1:20 pm

Lees plays for Exeter. So again top 4 team who are probably not going to play.

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 09 May 2016, 1:25 pm

englandglory4ever wrote:On paper the 'alternative' England team looks quite good. Glad Mickey Young is getting a look-in but surprised Mitch Lees is not there. I'd have him instead of Attwood who has never really delivered in an England shirt. What is most worrying is that putting up a rookie side against the full Wales team could be disastrous. From 50 minutes in the England side could be shot and Wales go on to put a cricket score on us. Not nice.

It might not be all they rosy for us with overseas players potentially unavailable, some injuries and injured players just returning from injury/suspension. Francis starting would be a concern seeing as he's missed all of Exeter's recent major games. Lee has got injured again and missed rugby, so that's just one problem position for now. And with AWJ 50/50 our list of world class players being available for this game is looking paper thin Whistle.

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