Bill Beaumont's idea to move the Six Nations to April?

First topic message reminder :

World Rugby wants a streamlined global season to safeguard players against injury from being overworked through sheer number of games.

I think we are all in favour of this and having been wanting a global season for years.

However,
Six Nations chief executive John Feehan has previously branded the tournament's February-March slot "non-negotiable".

And I can understand both sides.

I think a global calendar is the most important thing for Rugby going forward.

But on the 6 nations, its easy to say it should be moved, but we have think a little bit more about that and why they are reluctant to move it.

The time of year its at does not conflict with any other sports so it is the main draw, for TV and hence sponsors get great coverage.
For the cities involved and their economy, Feb/Mar is normally a slow time of year them. Shopping, pubs and hotels all benefit by having a big influx of people during their the slowest part of the season for them. I don't think this effects London and Paris much, but for Cardiff, Edinburgh and Dublin, this is a real boost to the local businesses in the area.

If moved to April or the summer in will leave a black hole in the budgets of these areas, and overall bring in less money.


However in the long run I think this is a small price to pay to have a fully linked up rugby calendar and player welfare.

What knock on effect will it bring to the leagues though, and would they be happy to change?

After all May is now the time used for European finals (at the request of the French) will they have to be moved again?
The French League season is very long, how will it need changed and will the French clubs be happy to move it?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Horses laurie. Big in Ireland, which appears to be Sins main case. Ireland would struggle to get any interest in their rugby team.

Big in England as well - have you ever heard of the Cheltenham Festival (average 50,000 per day over 4 days in March).

In England, there is very little cross interest in sport - the football crowd hate the rugby crowd. They can manage that because they have a population of 60m.

In places like Wales and Ireland (in Scotland, there would be very little crossover interest), people will support all sports. That is why Ireland and Wales are better off financially than Scotland. What we don't want to do is turn both of those into another Scotland financially.

Think of it this way - if you were the NZFA, would you organise a football tournament at the same time as the Rugby Championship?

I don't think there is a relevant point on this fly. I don't think tv money would suffer a jot from playing April though I do think a lot more could be made in either slot.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't think there is a relevant point on this fly. I don't think tv money would suffer a jot from playing April though I do think a lot more could be made in either slot.

Its not just the tv money though - its the attendances and travelling support.

Its down time for a lot of amateur sports people as well who are not playing matches not to mention ferrying kids to sports on a Saturday. Then there is the media coverage - at the moment in Ireland there is hardly anything about Ireland's upcoming tour to SA, the sports pages are full of the upcoming Euros and athletes trying to achieve Olympic qualifications.

PRO12 is getting a bit of coverage because of Connacht doing a Leicester on it this year.

We'll soon get used to it. May help us push the game forward in the end. Better weather etc. We'll find out soon (ish).

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't think there is a relevant point on this fly. I don't think tv money would suffer a jot from playing April though I do think a lot more could be made in either slot.

TV is TV.  TV is 24 hours and never cares about the weather outside or what time of the year it is in any given area of the world.  Agree.

BUT WHY (that's not a shout, that's emphasis) ...WHY do so many sports fans now talk like TV producers or broadcasting shareholders?  To hell with TV, it'll look after its own market and if 6N was in June or October, I'd sit down to watch it.
But these are Spectator sports - they are most alive when people are there - live, in the stadiums, around the cities, making noise and giving the event colour.

Why do so many sports fans on this site and others argue the case for TV as the colour and vibrancy of the events themselves are pushed out to being only a second thought, a distraction from the real business of TV deals and big sponsorship?

Yeah, 6N might still work fine a few weeks further into the year.  The point I guess is that it works quite well where it is too.

It does fly, but if WR want to move some things around for me that's fine. 6Ns will continue to prosper, may even improve.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It does fly, but if WR want to move some things around for me that's fine. 6Ns will continue to prosper, may even improve.

They said that about the Heineken Cup. Look at it now. A disaster. They have got nothing right.

Ha, just being silly now Sin.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha, just being silly now Sin.

Falling attendances, less sponsorship. Messed up schedules.

Thats what we've got now. And the Celtic Unions saw what was coming by insisting on being first creditors.

Oh right. Didn't think there were falling attendances? There's as much money now as before with tv so all good. Don't worry Irish teams will be back on top eventually, the way of things ups and downs etc.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh right. Didn't think there were falling attendances? There's as much money now as before with tv so all good. Don't worry Irish teams will be back on top eventually, the way of things ups and downs etc.

Semi finals
Saracens v Wasps: 16K
Leicester v Racing: 22k

Final: 58K

You make a heck of a lot more from attendances than you will make from any TV money.
For instance a full house at the Majesky would be worth about 2m to the participating teams.

Thats not like for like though is it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thats not like for like though is it.

Well, we will get a good idea of what might happen this summer. Rep. of Ireland v Belgium in the Euros is on about the same time as SA v Ireland in rugby. The viewing numbers for the SA game will be interesting. There certainly won't be a pub in Ireland showing it anyway.

It'll move it suits WR overall.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It'll move it suits WR overall.

If it means less money for everyone else, it won't move. And the 6Ns will be looking for compensation to do so from World Rugby. None of the 6Ns want it moved (including RFU).

TV3 (owned by Liberty Global) have bought the rights of the 6Ns up to 2022 in Ireland.

Absolutely true, just can't see it bringing in less money, no reason it would. Could bring in much more than it does though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Absolutely true, just can't see it bringing in less money, no reason it would. Could bring in much more than it does though.

15 games @ 3.3m per game (for BBC/ITV) = 50m per tournament. That excludes French & Italian coverage on FTA tv.

Not sure what the new BT deal with the PRL is, but last one was 38m per year for 69 games per season, plus Euro games, plus 7s. And that is on Pay TV.

Yup, Sky and BT could potentially offer far far more than the BBC. Currently the 6Ns want it free to air tv though so limiting the amount they can get.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup, Sky and BT could potentially offer far far more than the BBC. Currently the 6Ns want it free to air tv though so limiting the amount they can get.

Sky & BT would want exclusive rights which they can't have. I believe that Welsh games are listed by Welsh Assembly to be FTA and if there was any such attempt to do so, they would be listed in ROI.

I think RBS pay 20m as Title Sponsor per annum. Losing FTA coverage would reduce the value of the sponsorship. So, its swings and roundabouts.

Anyway, have you not noticed what happens to sport that are exclusively on PPV tv (in case you haven't they become less popular).

Don't think Wales games are protected either, just a proposal. And less popular like the Premier League...

thing is.. with all this extra money, where is it all going?

If its a case of players getting richer, club owners ability to sign 10 SH players compared to 5 previously is that helping the domestic game at all?

Is having player xyz from NZ at Leicester, Wasps, Ospreys going to help widened the game or improve the players around him that much?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Don't think Wales games are protected either, just a proposal. And less popular like the Premier League...

Ofcom Code on Sports and Other Listed and Designated Events
List A2

These events, generally seen as only important to one Home Nation, would have to be aired live in their entirety on a free-to-air channel in that nation only:

Rugby union:
Wales Six Nations and internationals (in Wales)

That messes it up for the UK.

fa0019 wrote:thing is.. with all this extra money, where is it all going?

If its a case of players getting richer, club owners ability to sign 10 SH players compared to 5 previously is that helping the domestic game at all?

Is having player xyz from NZ at Leicester, Wasps, Ospreys going to help widened the game or improve the players around him that much?

Its mostly going back into the sport - development officers, facilities etc.

IRFU's turnover is about €65m per annum. About 30m of that goes to professional game, internationals etc. The rest employs development officers, coaches, referees, women's rugby, 7s , build stadia.

SARU's turnover is about €50m per annum for the record.

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Don't think Wales games are protected either, just a proposal. And less popular like the Premier League...

Ofcom Code on Sports and Other Listed and Designated Events
List A2

These events, generally seen as only important to one Home Nation, would have to be aired live in their entirety on a free-to-air channel in that nation only:

Rugby union:
Wales Six Nations and internationals (in Wales)

That messes it up for the UK.

Don't believe that was ever passed.

YES THEY ARE. Under category B.

All Wales home six nations games are protected on free to view. 

Also, there is a highlights show on S4C for all the European games that the regions play in.

Any link for that, as I can't find anything to say it was passed?

Sin é wrote:

fa0019 wrote:thing is.. with all this extra money, where is it all going?

If its a case of players getting richer, club owners ability to sign 10 SH players compared to 5 previously is that helping the domestic game at all?

Is having player xyz from NZ at Leicester, Wasps, Ospreys going to help widened the game or improve the players around him that much?

Its mostly going back into the sport - development officers, facilities etc.

IRFU's turnover is about €65m per annum. About 30m of that goes to professional game, internationals etc. The rest employs development officers, coaches, referees, women's rugby, 7s , build stadia.

SARU's turnover is about €50m per annum for the record.

SA has far lower costs mind and the rand has tanked by 50% in the last year.  More players/admin staff to pay for. Officials are probably better paid than the players... the way it is in SA.

Appendix: 2008-09 review of listed events under Labour Government 


In December 2008, the Labour Government announced a review of the list, to be carried out by an Independent Advisory Panel chaired by David Davies. 16


The review looked at three areas: 
• the principle of having a list 
• the criteria against which events should be listed 
• the content of any list

Report published (November 2009)


The Panel’s report was published in November 200917 and supported the principle of protecting some major sporting events for the widest possible television audience, if necessary by means of listing them.18 


The Panel said that guaranteeing only the highlights of a major event could no longer be seen as a sufficient substitute for live coverage 19 and that there should be a single list of live events protected for free-to-air television. 20

Decisions on which events to include in a single list should be based on the following criteria:

(…) an event must have a special national resonance and not simply a significance to those who ordinarily follow the sport concerned.

 Such an event is likely to fall into one or both of the following categories: 

• it is a pre-eminent national or international event in sport; 
• it involves the national team or national representatives in the sport concerned. 

It should also be likely to command a large television audience. 21

Given the changing media landscape, the Panel observed that listed events might not have a “long-term future.”22 It also said that the list should be reviewed more regularly than it had been so far. 23

The Panel recommended the following single list of protected events:

• The Summer Olympic Games 
• FIFA World Cup Finals Tournament
• UEFA European Football Championship Finals Tournament 
• The Grand National 
• The FA Cup Final (in England, Wales and Northern Ireland only) 
• The Scottish FA Cup (in Scotland only) 
• Home and away qualification matches in the FIFA World Cup and UEFA European Football Championships (listed in the Home Nation to which they relate) 
• The All-England Wimbledon Lawn Tennis Championship (listed in its entirety) 
• The Open Golf Championship 
• Cricket’s Home Ashes Test matches 
• The Rugby Union World Cup Tournament 
• Wales matches in the Six Nations Rugby Championship (in Wales only) 

24 The Panel acknowledged that this represented a “significant de-listing of events currently in Groups A and B”.



So, notice the bit underlined and bold. If you want to read it for yourself go on the following link:-

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=welsh+rugby+free+to+air+protected

It's a PDF file about five lines down called:-

Listed sporting events - Parliament

Download that and you will get ALL your info there. I hope this helps.

Yes thank you LD. So as I said I think this is a proposal and I've seen nothing that it was ever brought in. Do you have the actual link to say the government accepted this recommendation and it is now protected?

It's all in the PDF file, you will need to download it. Wales home games are protected on free to air tv. Wales away games are not though.

Yes under the current listed events 6 Nations (home countries) is listed under Group B. Not just Wales matches, but this only covers highlights not the full match doesn't it?

It's definitely worth a trial to see how it works later in the year.

Some people are so resistant to change (or just look at it from their own, very narrow, perspective) that it's a wonder they manage to get out of bed in a morning. Is it mostly an Irish thing?

No need to bait the Irish Cyril but this sort of thing could be trialled quite easily for 1 year with a guarantee to be reviewed by all 6Ns members over a good period of time to look at tv viewers, ticket sales etc and talk to the sponsors etc.

Not baiting the Irish. It's just a good number of them give the impression that they never want to try anything new (see the European comps) and claim that they do everything so much better than everyone else.

Yep, it's definitely worth a trial.

Good luck getting the French to agree.

There are just so many obstacles in the way for this to happen though.

I must add as well, just because sporting events by law are allowed to be on free to air tv, it does not mean that they will be. 

If they were to get in the way of Eastenders or Corrie I doubt that the free to air channels would bother, and SKY would do it. Also, it does not mean that both PPV and free view cannot air the same event.

So were those recommendations ever brought in LD, or were they just recommendations as I thought?

No 7&1/2 wrote:So were those recommendations ever brought in LD, or were they just recommendations as I thought?

All that Wales play in the 6N at home must be on free to air, it was passed firstly by the Welsh assembly, then it was taken to Westminster where it was rubber stamped. It is now part of the 'Jewel in the Crown' events, also they are trying to get the entire 6N under that act. It does not mean the dates cannot be changed though. From memory, these were the protected events:-

FA Cup Final
The Grand National
The Boat Race
Wimbledon
Wales home games in the 6N, because it's the national sport of Wales.
Olympics
The Derby
One of the Golfs, St Andrews or something.

There might be one or two others, I will wrack my brain to try and remember them.

But these are the events I believe cannot be put on PPV tele solely.

Oh, the World cups in rugby and football, the Euros championship football. I cannot think of any more.

So I'm going with it was never passed then, as per the link you poster above. Wouldn't really affect a trial year anyway if WR wanted to play soft ball rather than force it through. Will be interesting to see how the new 2 at the top take it forward. Does seem they want to take on unpopular themes if they think it's to the general benefit. How long will they last?!

No 7&1/2 wrote:So I'm going with it was never passed then

Yes it was.

But it does not mean that the dates cannot be changed.

You can play the 6N any time of the year, as long as the Wales home games are shown on free view.

Have you got a link to say it was changed then LD as as I said I can't find one. The link you posted above and directed to me to kindly (thanks again) backed up my thoughts and contradicted you. At the moment 6Ns home countries are guaranteed highlights nothing more.

But yes more to do with increasing money coming in in the future.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Have you got a link to say it was changed then LD as as I said I can't find one. The link you posted above and directed to me to kindly (thanks again) backed up my thoughts and contradicted you. At the moment 6Ns home countries are guaranteed highlights nothing more.

But yes more to do with increasing money coming in in the future.

The 6Ns isn't on the list in Ireland either, but any attempts to put it on PPV tv, and it will be listed.

Coincidentally, during the week it has been talked about that the ROI football team's friendlies are on Sky tv as it is affecting the buildup to the Euros (ROI games in the Euros themselves are listed).

Good news though for No 7&1/2 though - when EU exit happens, there won't be any such protection - thats an EU law.

Cyril wrote:Not baiting the Irish. It's just a good number of them give the impression that they never want to try anything new (see the European comps) and claim that they do everything so much better than everyone else.

Yep, it's definitely worth a trial.

I never deny myself good food, so I'll eat the bait.
It's not us that have the Queen, with the Crown, with the horseguards, with the palaces, with the blackrods, with the bowed heads, with the Knights, with the Lords, with the Duchesses, with the corgis, with the mile or with the pound.

You've quite a way to go, Cyril, before you've changed as dramatically as we have these last 100 years or so.  We embrace change - when it's in our best interests.  

"Oh Holy to be God!  They want what's best for them, the selfish asswholes!!!"

SecretFly wrote:We embrace change - when it's in our best interests.

and yet are critical of others for doing the same

Cyril wrote:

SecretFly wrote:We embrace change - when it's in our best interests.

and yet are critical of others for doing the same

No not critical...pointing it out for them that we see it for what it is. Some will even use the word 'change' in an attempt to cover it up. Some of us say...oops, your skirts are showing there.

SecretFly wrote:It's not us that have the Queen, with the Crown, with the horseguards, with the palaces, with the blackrods, with the bowed heads, with the Knights, with the Lords, with the Duchesses, with the corgis, with the mile or with the pound.

I'm good with everything you list about our Monarchy and country except the Corgis.  As a breed should be sent into far distant space along with anything sounding like Shih Tzu.

doctor_grey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:It's not us that have the Queen, with the Crown, with the horseguards, with the palaces, with the blackrods, with the bowed heads, with the Knights, with the Lords, with the Duchesses, with the corgis, with the mile or with the pound.

I'm good with everything you list about our Monarchy and country except the Corgis.  As a breed should be sent into far distant space along with anything sounding like Shih Tzu.

It's good that you're good, doc. But it should be noted that from here on in Cyril distrusts you and your stuck-in-the-mud principles

Then I probably shouldn't go off about my plan to re-build the Empire?