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Bill Beaumont's idea to move the Six Nations to April?

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Post by Kingshu Fri May 13, 2016 2:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

World Rugby wants a streamlined global season to safeguard players against injury from being overworked through sheer number of games.

I think we are all in favour of this and having been wanting a global season for years.

However,
Six Nations chief executive John Feehan has previously branded the tournament's February-March slot "non-negotiable".

And I can understand both sides.

I think a global calendar is the most important thing for Rugby going forward.

But on the 6 nations, its easy to say it should be moved, but we have think a little bit more about that and why they are reluctant to move it.

The time of year its at does not conflict with any other sports so it is the main draw, for TV and hence sponsors get great coverage.
For the cities involved and their economy, Feb/Mar is normally a slow time of year them. Shopping, pubs and hotels all benefit by having a big influx of people during their the slowest part of the season for them. I don't think this effects London and Paris much, but for Cardiff, Edinburgh and Dublin, this is a real boost to the local businesses in the area.

If moved to April or the summer in will leave a black hole in the budgets of these areas, and overall bring in less money.


However in the long run I think this is a small price to pay to have a fully linked up rugby calendar and player welfare.

What knock on effect will it bring to the leagues though, and would they be happy to change?

After all May is now the time used for European finals (at the request of the French) will they have to be moved again?
The French League season is very long, how will it need changed and will the French clubs be happy to move it?


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Post by fa0019 Wed May 18, 2016 2:35 pm

munkian wrote:SH need us more than we need them from a finance side of things. Surely that swings some arguments in our favour ?

why should it be for anyone's favour

Shouldn't we be looking to improve the sport rather than.... find ways to make test team x more competitive vs. its peers?

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Post by Shifty Sat May 21, 2016 11:52 pm

fa0019 wrote:
munkian wrote:SH need us more than we need them from a finance side of things. Surely that swings some arguments in our favour ?

why should it be for anyone's favour

Shouldn't we be looking to improve the sport rather than.... find ways to make test team x more competitive vs. its peers?

Basically the rationale is Europe can survive off the 6 Nations and could probably plat games against each other in Noember as well to make up for the shortfall.
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Post by Exiledinborders Sun May 22, 2016 4:46 pm

Shifty wrote:
Notch wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:Bill said there needs to be compromise. What are the SH compromising on? The only suggestions I've seen involve the NH moving the 6N & the summer Internationals to suit the SH.

To put it another way; why shouldn't we do it?

The only drawback is arguably TV rights- I don't see April/early May being a big change in terms of value. We get the Six Nations on drier, harder pitches. We get the climax of the club season moved into late spring/early summer which means more of the season played in better weather.

If there was no suggestion that the SH need this change, it's still a good idea for the NH.

Because we CAN'T?
I would of thought that was a good enough reason.  The RFU and WRU did a feasibility study a few years ago and were told NO by nearly all the clubs.  The major issue being that many rugby clubs play on council owned grounds and the councils won't allow them to play on the grounds unless it's between September and April.  I remember a few years ago Kenfig Hill were not allowed to play a pre-season warm up game on the last week of August at home because of this.  Many rugby clubs have to share their grounds with other sports teams such as cricket.   That's THE reason why after many years we still haven't moved our season.  Summer rugby is a fantastic theory, but even asking the players who actually participate in the game have said it would massively effect the game as many have other things to do on the weekends in the summer, it would hugely effect participation rates.  Summer rugby isn't really an option for the NH.

As for the 6 Nations? I would enjoy seeing it move to the end of the season, and not split the club season up.  The international players could do the 6 Nations, then go on tour.
I don't think anyone is suggesting changing the season of amateur rugby just the elite game.

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Post by Sin é Sun May 22, 2016 7:00 pm

fa0019 wrote:
munkian wrote:SH need us more than we need them from a finance side of things. Surely that swings some arguments in our favour ?

why should it be for anyone's favour

Shouldn't we be looking to improve the sport rather than.... find ways to make test team x more competitive vs. its peers?

You need finance to spread the sport. The 6Ns brings in a lot of money from broadcasting rights and sponsorship because there is very little going on at that time of the year. Heading into April / May you have the run in to the Premiership and the Champions League, golf, cricket and everything else to compete with up here. What you will get is the European Tier 1 teams struggling financially like the SH teams. That means there will be less for everyone.


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Post by Sin é Mon May 23, 2016 2:37 pm


Neil Francis: Moving Six Nations start to April would be a disaster and must be resisted

The Global Rugby Calendar has always been an unwieldy programme. We shiver in sub-zero at Christmas time, they celebrate on the beach, that is the way it has always been. If SANZA want to change the global calendar let them change all of their fixtures and timing

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/neil-francis-moving-six-nations-start-to-april-would-be-a-disaster-and-must-be-resisted-34736710.html
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Post by munkian Mon May 23, 2016 3:26 pm

The Irish fear change 'shocker' Wink
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Post by SecretFly Mon May 23, 2016 3:35 pm

We do...we do.............

or maybe we just fear the olde cobwebby cliché of 'hard ground' Shocked Shocked Shocked

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We need muck!!!!!!!!!!!

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Post by Sin é Mon May 23, 2016 3:44 pm

munkian wrote:The Irish fear change 'shocker' Wink

Look, financially rugby will lose big time if they move from its present slot. 6Ns, Summer rugby tours, will not be able to compete with other sports. For instance, in Ireland, which unlike the UK pretty much has universal support from football & GAA fans, will lose out on that support if rugby tries to take them on head to head. Soccer is a summer sport here, as is GAA. There is no way rugby will compete with GAA as the IRFU/clubs just wouldn't be able to offer the same kind of community support or interest as the GAA can and does.
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Post by The Great Aukster Tue May 24, 2016 1:05 pm

Who cares if it ruins the 6N - the die hard armchair fans will be treated to watching all six nations play just like the All Blacks!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue May 24, 2016 2:53 pm

No compromise, no surrender! A global season is needed, but that's the problem WR will have, the unwillingness for change.

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Post by SecretFly Tue May 24, 2016 3:00 pm

A Global season is wanted.

Needed?

I've yet to hear a cohesive all encompassing statement that would 'prove' any need. The Globe is a big place, and when one part of it is huddled down in near hibernation, enduring a long winter, the other part is out with the barbis and beachballs.

I think 'Global Season' is the new buzz word for marketers, that's all. And with all marketing plans, the first step is to try to convince the market that the product is 'needed'.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue May 24, 2016 3:02 pm

Needed. Too much rugby, too many contrasting needs from various seasons along with too manu interdependancies.

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Post by SecretFly Tue May 24, 2016 3:07 pm

'Too much rugby' - won't be improved on by a new global season. I guarantee you, the least likely result of any new agreements on any new Global Seasons will be less rugby being played.

Sponsors and Broadcasters want more...not less. We all know that those interests get their way....eventually.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue May 24, 2016 3:15 pm

Gives you more guaranteed rest periods. It really is needed, better for the game. needs some give and take though. Like being able to move the 6Ns or the Rugby Championship if required.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue May 24, 2016 3:23 pm

How many times have the NH had to accommodate the SH ? 

We have the WC at a time that suits them, but buggers up our season. 

We have the AI in the Autumn, at the end of their season, which buggers up our season.

When ever there is a new law change, it is trialed  in the SH, and when they are used to it, it is then rolled out everywhere thus putting everybody else on catch up mode.

Moving the 6N to the end of the season would be suicide. Rugby cannot compete with football. The FA cup, European cups, the Premiership football run in, playoffs in the Championship. January to April has non of the above. 

As for a global season, forget it, not unless the SH change to ours. Do the SH play rugby over Christmas ?  Imagine boxing day and New Years day without the derbies. These fixtures generate massive amounts of money for the teams playing on those dates, no rugby at Christmas time....... say it ain't so Santa, say it ain't so.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue May 24, 2016 3:26 pm

Wouldn't it be great if we all had the same season then LD? Rugby already competes with football in the UK, lets move it to summer.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue May 24, 2016 3:33 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wouldn't it be great if we all had the same season then LD?

Yes, it would.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Rugby already competes with football in the UK, lets move it to summer.

Rugby teams would lose a hell of a lot of money moving fixtures away from the festive period. Also, I do not think it would be good for player welfare getting bashed around on sun dried solid pitches.

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Post by fa0019 Tue May 24, 2016 3:35 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Wouldn't it be great if we all had the same season then LD?

Yes, it would.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Rugby already competes with football in the UK, lets move it to summer.

Rugby teams would lose a hell of a lot of money moving fixtures away from the festive period. Also, I do not think it would be good for player welfare getting bashed around on sun dried solid pitches.

they do in SA, do players suffer any worse?

Hell most kids don't wear socks let alone boots.

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Post by sad_gimp Tue May 24, 2016 3:36 pm

I'd be quite happy to ditch the seniors summer tour, instead run the six nations then, in parallel with the top-tier nations A teams (Saxons etc.) playing a tournament with the second-tier European nations.

SH would lose out financially pretty badly from that though so unlikely to happen.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue May 24, 2016 3:38 pm

Ever heard of sprinklers?

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Post by fa0019 Tue May 24, 2016 3:38 pm

mid_gen wrote:I'd be quite happy to ditch the seniors summer tour, instead run the six nations then, in parallel with the top-tier nations A teams (Saxons etc.) playing a tournament with the second-tier European nations.

SH would lose out financially pretty badly from that though so unlikely to happen.

would they really lose out from summer tours dropping off the calendar? Usually only 1 man and his dog from the home nations follow their teams on such tours.

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Post by BamBam Tue May 24, 2016 3:42 pm

LordDowlais wrote:How many times have the NH had to accommodate the SH ? 


We have the AI in the Autumn, at the end of their season, which buggers up our season.



You do realise that the summer internationals are at the end of OUR season, must surely then "bugger up" their season too?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue May 24, 2016 3:44 pm

fa0019 wrote:Usually only 1 man and his dog from the home nations follow their teams on such tours.

You've got to be kidding, surely ? Not to mention the people who will watch it on tele. I know there are lots of people going to New Zealand in the summer, and my local is opening up early on the Saturday mornings for the rest of us who are staying home.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue May 24, 2016 3:45 pm

God, they do know the European championships are on. they can't be thinking straight!

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Post by fa0019 Tue May 24, 2016 3:47 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Usually only 1 man and his dog from the home nations follow their teams on such tours.

You've got to be kidding, surely ? Not to mention the people who will watch it on tele. I know there are lots of people going to New Zealand in the summer, and my local is opening up early on the Saturday mornings for the rest of us who are staying home.

1 man and his dog... and 2 cats.

Lions series aside you guys hardly travel. A few kids in ANZAC on their gap years aside etc. I remember seeing about 10 welsh fans on your 2014 tour of SA. Probably 8 of them were doing the SA holiday bucket list at the same time and realised some rugby was going on too.

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Post by SecretFly Tue May 24, 2016 4:23 pm

Has the great big brother a global season?

I honestly don't have a clue so not a trick question. Does it? Does Football have a unified Global Season designed to tidy up the calendar and protect player welfare?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue May 24, 2016 4:29 pm

SecretFly wrote:Has the great big brother a global season?

I honestly don't have a clue so not a trick question.  Does it?  Does Football have a unified Global Season designed to tidy up the calendar and protect player welfare?


I think everyone does except for the USA. I think. Also, I know a lot of Europe and elsewhere have a winter break, we do not.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue May 24, 2016 5:00 pm

I am sorry, but these facts are why the NH should be in pole position whilst making the decisions on topics like this:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/revealed-eye-watering-pile-cash-11377924

The amount of revenue created from the last WC held in the NH is phenomenal. The SH just cannot match this. If they want a bigger wedge to play with, then they must compromise with the NH. 

We need to grow our game, we need the money that the NH generates to meet our ends, if it changes and the SH can create the revenue streams created up here then we can consider change, but until then it would be suicide for both hemispheres to go along with the SH's way of doing things.

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Post by SecretFly Tue May 24, 2016 5:15 pm

Oh Jesus Lord.... you know you're going to get it in the neck with yonder Walesonline reference......

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Post by fa0019 Tue May 24, 2016 5:20 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I am sorry, but these facts are why the NH should be in pole position whilst making the decisions on topics like this:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/revealed-eye-watering-pile-cash-11377924

The amount of revenue created from the last WC held in the NH is phenomenal. The SH just cannot match this. If they want a bigger wedge to play with, then they must compromise with the NH. 

We need to grow our game, we need the money that the NH generates to meet our ends, if it changes and the SH can create the revenue streams created up here then we can consider change, but until then it would be suicide for both hemispheres to go along with the SH's way of doing things.

so how much of that was profit to the unions themselves, those were overall sales figures? Half the unions barely tread water... celtic ones are no exception. I think the SH have as many ace cards in their hands as the NH does, probably more.

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Post by fa0019 Tue May 24, 2016 5:23 pm

A dangerous game to play... the SH makes little money from their AI matches. THE NH makes bucket loads. If SANZAR simply decide to say not tour Wales or not tour xyz then such union would quickly go bankrupt.

The SH makes little from summer tours too. AI's are very very lucrative... part of that draw is playing the best teams in the world. .. hence why Wales rolls out the red carpet for that fourth test outside the window every year, they need the cash.

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Post by SecretFly Tue May 24, 2016 5:33 pm

Why does every debate have to be a p!ssing contest? Wink

It should simply be about where Need merges with Want - and where truth might come into the equation.

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Post by fa0019 Tue May 24, 2016 5:36 pm

SecretFly wrote:Why does every debate have to be a p!ssing contest? Wink

It should simply be about where Need merges with Want - and where truth might come into the equation.

everyone will do whats best for them.

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Post by SecretFly Tue May 24, 2016 5:40 pm

fa0019 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Why does every debate have to be a p!ssing contest? Wink

It should simply be about where Need merges with Want - and where truth might come into the equation.

everyone will do whats best for them.

I've heard that fairytale more than once fa. Wink

Logic forbids though.

Some will lead - using the all important argument (money); and some will be forced to grin and bear it.... "Smile for the Camera - we got a sport that 'cares for its players' to promote, chaps"

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Post by Sin é Tue May 24, 2016 9:24 pm

fa0019 wrote:A dangerous game to play... the SH makes little money from their AI matches. THE NH makes bucket loads. If SANZAR simply decide to say not tour Wales or not tour xyz then such union would quickly go bankrupt.

The SH makes little from summer tours too. AI's are very very lucrative... part of that draw is playing the best teams in the world. .. hence why Wales rolls out the red carpet for that fourth test outside the window every year, they need the cash.

And the NH teams don't make anything from their summer tours and very little from the Lions Tour. The most lucractive competition for NH teams is the 6Ns, not the AIs and this is the one you want to move Erm

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed May 25, 2016 8:03 am

What would be the reasons for the 6Ns losing money if moved to April?

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Post by LordDowlais Wed May 25, 2016 8:05 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:What would be the reasons for the 6Ns losing money if moved to April?


You would not get the same TV deals. OK

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed May 25, 2016 8:09 am

Why? I fail to see why the BBC with their history would be less interested (and hardly break the bank now), and ITV clearly want to move their coverage on a bit. The 6Ns could also simply look to BT, Sky etc. There's no reason why rugby in better weather would be less valuable as you wouldn't actually be changing anything to do with the format.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed May 25, 2016 8:40 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why? I fail to see why the BBC with their history would be less interested (and hardly break the bank now), and ITV clearly want to move their coverage on a bit. The 6Ns could also simply look to BT, Sky etc. There's no reason why rugby in better weather would be less valuable as you wouldn't actually be changing anything to do with the format.


It's all about viewers/viewing figures. The 6N can demand a lot more money from the TV at the moment, because they know they can capture a higher audience due to the fact that people will not have to chose between watching the FA cup final or a 6N game. Think about it for a second. How many casual fans will watch the 6N due to the fact that there is nothing else on ? If they were given the choice, the casual fan might plump for the FA cup final over England V Italy, thus it would severely reduce the TV audience for the 6N, which would then affect the income that could get generated for airing it.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed May 25, 2016 9:00 am

So just have the blank weekend when they show the FA Cup, show the game after, do the Friday Saturday lunch time, plan around it. You could take that perceived negative and turn it on it's head. A weekend festival of sport. Granted some people currently think the 6Ns has been ruined as it's on more than one tv channel but I don't see it that way.

Another thing is though the 6Ns aren't selling to the highest bidder so it's a bit of a moot point.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed May 25, 2016 9:12 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So just have the blank weekend when they show the FA Cup, show the game after, do the Friday Saturday lunch time, plan around it. You could take that perceived negative and turn it on it's head. A weekend festival of sport. Granted some people currently think the 6Ns has been ruined as it's on more than one tv channel but I don't see it that way.

Another thing is though the 6Ns aren't selling to the highest bidder so it's a bit of a moot point.


OK. I'm out. picard

But before I go, there is not just the FA cup. There are league playoffs, there is Wimbledon, Rugby League ect. Where the 6N stands, it is the prime sporting event, move it, and you lose that aura.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed May 25, 2016 9:14 am

And it's currently up against football and the premier league. It would be the prime sporting even against everything bar the international comps for footy. But this was about money, that's not going to suffer and could be much improved if sold to the highest bidder anyway. Win, win.

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Post by BamBam Wed May 25, 2016 9:21 am

I would want to avoid it being up against the last two weeks of the football season, so would look to have the final weekend of the 6N being the last weekend of April

Assuming the usual 7 week slot, this year, that would have looked like March 19-20 to April 30

Other than FA Cup Semi Finals, I can't think of a single event that takes place in that time that does not already compete with the 6N where it is

League playoffs, end of the football season falls in May
Wimbledon starts at the end of June
Rugby League (does anyone really care?) but even then the Challenge Cup latter stages are later in Summer and the league is on going

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Post by Sin é Wed May 25, 2016 9:34 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:And it's currently up against football and the premier league. It would be the prime sporting even against everything bar the international comps for footy. But this was about money, that's not going to suffer and could be much improved if sold to the highest bidder anyway. Win, win.

April/May is the climax of the season. People who never watch football will watch the Champions League final next weekend. Little or no golf, cricket or GAA in the early months of the season. Only sporting event is jump racing. Last weekend the two PRO12 semis were competing with the Irish Open for both publicity and attendances. Last weekend there were also some big hurling games in Ireland - i.e., Cork v Tipp on Sunday which would have had a huge affect on Munster attendances if they were say in the final on Saturday.

Rugby is kingpin for that period of the year in the NH which makes it attractive to sponsors and advertisers as well. The 6Ns is worth 100m to the 6Ns which is a lot for just 15 games of rugby. Its the most lucrative rugby tournament, so mess with it at your peril.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed May 25, 2016 9:42 am

Think it's well worth a go if it's help rugby in general. We could raise more money through selling to the highest bidder. If it's money we want the current model sucks.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Wed May 25, 2016 9:43 am

Sin é wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:And it's currently up against football and the premier league. It would be the prime sporting even against everything bar the international comps for footy. But this was about money, that's not going to suffer and could be much improved if sold to the highest bidder anyway. Win, win.

April/May is the climax of the season. People who never watch football will watch the Champions League final next weekend. Little or no golf, cricket or GAA in the early months of the season. Only sporting event is jump racing. Last weekend the two PRO12 semis were competing with the Irish Open for both publicity and attendances. Last weekend there were also some big hurling games in Ireland - i.e., Cork v Tipp on Sunday which would have had a huge affect on Munster attendances if they were say in the final on Saturday.

Rugby is kingpin for that period of the year in the NH which makes it attractive to sponsors and advertisers as well. The 6Ns is worth 100m to the 6Ns which is a lot for just 15 games of rugby. Its the most lucrative rugby tournament, so mess with it at your peril.


Whiskey Tango Foxtrot is "Jump Racing"?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed May 25, 2016 9:47 am

Horses laurie. Big in Ireland, which appears to be Sins main case. Ireland would struggle to get any interest in their rugby team.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Wed May 25, 2016 9:51 am


Probably what we call "Steeplechase".

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Post by SecretFly Wed May 25, 2016 10:17 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Horses laurie. Big in Ireland, which appears to be Sins main case. Ireland would struggle to get any interest in their rugby team.

Well he's using Ireland as an example - 'cause he do be living in it - but I'd assume his point is that the sporting calendar in most of the six nations involved in the competition isn't as cluttered currently and therefore is an easier task to get people to games?

Can we all agree he has a point on that one?

Jump Racing, laurie - happens the second Sunday of every month through winter. It has three teams usually, with six or seven players per team, depending on the weather. The object of the game is to get three balls into the hoop over a 15 minute period, or twenty minutes, depending on the weather. The winner is decided by popular vote and it's off to the pub for a good old fist fight to decide who fit to play in the next game.


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Post by SecretFly Wed May 25, 2016 10:20 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Probably what we call "Steeplechase".

That's actually our name for it too as the particular Steeples are situated in the land of SinE

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