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Post by Pr4wn on Tue May 17, 2016 12:21 pm

Following on from a discussion about Vitor Belfort in another thread, I'd like to start a discussion about performance enhancing drugs in MMA.

In my opinion, and I know this may seem rather draconian, anyone caught using steroids should be banned from MMA for life. Not only is it against the spirit of fair play and competition, it makes the sport even more dangerous than it already is.

Belfort is a perfect example. He was an absolute wrecking ball when he was juicing. Vicious knockout power combined with thrilling speed. When someone who is already powerful and fast juices, they become even more dangerous. You could liken it to somebody being allowed to take a weapon into the cage.

The other reason for this action is to preserve the already fragile reputation of the sport. The UFC and other promoters need to take strong action against offenders in order to be taken more seriously. Having Chael Sonnen on as a pundit makes a mockery of the UFC in my opinion.

So what would you do about PEDs?

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Post by sohotnot on Wed May 18, 2016 11:48 am

You're probably right to be honest. How many guys are using to cut massive amounts of weight to fight in the wrong weight class? How many are using to overcome an injury quicker? It could actually take a fatality in the cage and the winner to test positive for the seriousness to hit home. Problem is its rife in all sports at elite level. Do we just ban professional sports altogether? Take all the money out of it?

Agree about Sonnen, I mean the guy was thrown out of the UFC to fight only to return to the payroll as a pundit. Also Joe Rogan uses TRT something which is also now banned by the UFC.

TBH I think the UFC are beginning to take this serious now and putting in measures to cut down on the use but its never going to be 100%. Every sport wants/needs big stars and unfortunately these are the very people that could be using and will be protected until the next new big name comes along.

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Post by Pr4wn on Wed May 18, 2016 11:52 am

That's no excuse though.

But yes, like you said, someone will probably have to die in the cage before someone real is done.

You can just tell when someone has been on them. You could see it with Romero, you could see it with Cung Le and you could see it with Vitor back in the day.

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Post by fa0019 on Wed May 18, 2016 2:51 pm

Its like the Armstrong affair... "oh he was one of the best riders, had everyone not been on drugs he would have won anyway".

That's not true... a lot of riders didn't even make the cut because they didn't dope but would have been genuine challengers had they been on a level playing field.

Should victory in sport simply be a case of who has the best chemist?

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Post by sohotnot on Wed May 18, 2016 11:07 pm

fa0019 wrote:Its like the Armstrong affair... "oh he was one of the best riders, had everyone not been on drugs he would have won anyway".

That's not true... a lot of riders didn't even make the cut because they didn't dope but would have been genuine challengers had they been on a level playing field.

Should victory in sport simply be a case of who has the best chemist?


That does seem to be the way in most sports nowadays. As somebody said, 'its no longer a dope test but an IQ test'. The chemists are coming up with new drugs all the time, quite simply they are a step ahead of the anti doping authorities. Its so easy to get away with it these days if you are at the top. The powers that be in the individual sports, Olympics, the sponsors like Nike etc turn a blind eye or protect their stars. There will never be an effective testing protocol.



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Post by marty2086 on Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:01 pm

sohotnot wrote: Also Joe Rogan uses TRT something which is also now banned by the UFC.

Whats that got to do with anything? Its not illegal, its banned in competition and even then there are exceptions. If Im not mistaken theres at least one fighter who has had a TUE for TRT because of low T-Levels.

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Post by sohotnot on Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:17 pm

It was in reference to Chael sonnen being thrown out for ped use then being brought back as a pundit. Seems a bit contradictory, then we have Rogan and allegedly Dana and Fertattas all using as well. I know they are not competing but imo it does send out a mixed message with regards to their views on pets.

I was under the impression that you could no longer be using trt even with a tue now in or out if competition, I could be wrong. Which fighter do you think is still allowed to use? Belfort and Henderson appear not to be using anymore. Seems to be quite a few fighters that don't look the same anymore since the clamp down

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Post by marty2086 on Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:28 pm

It was Forrest Griffin who had the TUE, turns out Antonio Silva had a TUE as well but went over the limits for it.

Theres genuine reasons for using things banned in competition you just can't use them in competition.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:16 am

marty2086 wrote:
sohotnot wrote: Also Joe Rogan uses TRT something which is also now banned by the UFC.

Whats that got to do with anything? Its not illegal, its banned in competition and even then there are exceptions. If Im not mistaken theres at least one fighter who has had a TUE for TRT because of low T-Levels.

I think you're being a little too nice to the fighters.

The exceptions are things like if you have hypogonadism which is exceptionally rare. Charl Sonnen said he had it.... he didn't.
In essence a load of fighters found out you could get TRT prescriptions (which is exactly the same as taking steroids... because all steroids are testosterone) and legally fight.

If you have low testosterone levels then technically you can have a doctor prescribe it for you but its all BS. Those guys that are taking it.... they're all 35+.

Dan Henderson was nobody until he took it. Then he had an Indian summer of a career.. with hormones matching that of a 22 year old with a 45 year olds experience.

Then think of the ages of Frank Mir, Victor Belfort, Charl Sonnen, Forrest Griffin, Rampage Jackson. They were all on it... especially the brasilians.

Your testosterone goes down with age and also fluctuates with things such as your partner having children (up to a 1/3 surprisingly). You can't expect hormone levels of that of young 18-22 year olds.
In addition, low natural testosterone is an after effect of..... long term steroid use. So chaps who have been boosting most of their career (when drug testing in MMA was non existant) realised that it was to be introduced but they could all get medical exemptions they all switched.

That's why it was banned in 2014 I think.

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Post by marty2086 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:01 am

fa0019 wrote:The exceptions are things like if you have hypogonadism which is exceptionally rare. Charl Sonnen said he had it.... he didn't.
In essence a load of fighters found out you could get TRT prescriptions (which is exactly the same as taking steroids... because all steroids are testosterone) and legally fight.

Sonnens doctor said he did have it

fa0019 wrote:If you have low testosterone levels then technically you can have a doctor prescribe it for you but its all BS. Those guys that are taking it.... they're all 35+.

35+? You mean they are at an age where they will naturally have lower testosterone levels and may require some? That's BS!

fa0019 wrote:Dan Henderson was nobody until he took it. Then he had an Indian summer of a career.. with hormones matching that of a 22 year old with a 45 year olds experience.

Then think of the ages of Frank Mir, Victor Belfort, Charl Sonnen, Forrest Griffin, Rampage Jackson. They were all on it... especially the brasilians. .

Dan Henderson that nobody who had won FC tournaments and titles at 2 weights in Pride?


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Post by fa0019 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:17 am

marty2086 wrote:
fa0019 wrote:The exceptions are things like if you have hypogonadism which is exceptionally rare. Charl Sonnen said he had it.... he didn't.
In essence a load of fighters found out you could get TRT prescriptions (which is exactly the same as taking steroids... because all steroids are testosterone) and legally fight.

Sonnens doctor said he did have it

fa0019 wrote:If you have low testosterone levels then technically you can have a doctor prescribe it for you but its all BS. Those guys that are taking it.... they're all 35+.

35+? You mean they are at an age where they will naturally have lower testosterone levels and may require some? That's BS!

fa0019 wrote:Dan Henderson was nobody until he took it. Then he had an Indian summer of a career.. with hormones matching that of a 22 year old with a 45 year olds experience.

Then think of the ages of Frank Mir, Victor Belfort, Charl Sonnen, Forrest Griffin, Rampage Jackson. They were all on it... especially the brasilians. .

Dan Henderson that nobody who had won FC tournaments and titles at 2 weights in Pride?


Its banned. its banned for a very good reason because its steroid abuse in everything but name. And a large number of UFC fighters were permanently juiced until they started get strict about 2014. When I say strict.. I mean, treating it like all other drug controlled sports.

Yes, people have lower testosterone as you age. You can't say.. "its not fair that my testosterone is lowering with age" because its natural. Fighters the size of Frank Mir having low testosterone. Absolute BS. Had he had low testosterone throughout his life he never would have been such a beast. The reality was he was almost certainly juiced for most of his career. When the bans came and he had to get off it he found that due to his previously LT PEDs usage he had developed low testosterone as a by product and for a time successfully was able to get a prescription for it.

Charl Sonnen's case for TRT was thrown out. It was never approved even when it was legal.

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Post by marty2086 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:25 am

fa0019 wrote:Charl Sonnen's case for TRT was thrown out. It was never approved even when it was legal.

No it wasn't thrown out

Normal levels are 1-1, levels are allowed up to 4-1 because of TRT but like you say its been banned outright by UFC

Sonnen was initially suspended by CSAC for failing to state his TRT on his forms, something he'd done previously. He said he'd done that because its what NSAC use that approach, in his hearing he stated he had something to an exec at NSAC regarding it, that wasn't true so his suspension was extended, it was actually his manager who'd spoken to the guy.

Antonio Silva was suspended because of TRT after going over the 4-1 limit, he had to have surgery to address his issue

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:34 am

marty2086 wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Charl Sonnen's case for TRT was thrown out. It was never approved even when it was legal.

No it wasn't thrown out

Normal levels are 1-1, levels are allowed up to 4-1 because of TRT but like you say its been banned outright by UFC

Sonnen was initially suspended by CSAC for failing to state his TRT on his forms, something he'd done previously. He said he'd done that because its what NSAC use that approach, in his hearing he stated he had something to an exec at NSAC regarding it, that wasn't true so his suspension was extended, it was actually his manager who'd spoken to the guy.

Antonio Silva was suspended because of TRT after going over the 4-1 limit, he had to have surgery to address his issue

That's not quite true. Sonnen argued his levels were due to a TRT exemption. He never had one. His excuse was that his manager allegedly had a word with the officials and he said, no problem. The officials said they never spoke about Sonnen.

It was banned because it was being abused as an excuse.

Just the same way that ADHD treatment was used as an excuse for baseball players to use ritalin (the numbers way above the average). It was all prescribed by doctors yet MLB knew it was complete BS. Its the same with TRT. I don't doubt many had low testosterone yet what a surprise its all given to old fighters, when did you here about the 22 yr old on it??? Those who had had low rates only probably did after years of steroids abuse. Silva himself is/was a great fighter but he was almost certainly jacked. I mean his team, stable mates, his coach is the most jacked man in the sport

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Post by marty2086 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:46 am

Please read up before declaring fact

http://www.cagepotato.com/sonnens-suspension-reduced-six-months/

He actually declared it on his form but didn't tell the doctor involved, the ban was extended at a later date over his statement about the NSAC official.

http://mmajunkie.com/2013/12/endocrinologist-chael-sonnens-initial-diagnosis-of-hypogonadism-not-definitive

He had a TUE in Nevada

Yes some are using it as an excuse but as you say older fighters will see naturally lower levels but training decreases it further along with fatigue and there is an expected level to be met medically, falling below this sees TRT recommended. This could also be a result of previous steroid use as you state but that's speculation.

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:56 am

marty2086 wrote:Please read up before declaring fact

http://www.cagepotato.com/sonnens-suspension-reduced-six-months/

He actually declared it on his form but didn't tell the doctor involved, the ban was extended at a later date over his statement about the NSAC official.

http://mmajunkie.com/2013/12/endocrinologist-chael-sonnens-initial-diagnosis-of-hypogonadism-not-definitive

He had a TUE in Nevada

Yes some are using it as an excuse but as you say older fighters will see naturally lower levels but training decreases it further along with fatigue and there is an expected level to be met medically, falling below this sees TRT recommended. This could also be a result of previous steroid use as you state but that's speculation.

Marty, its not just speculation, its why it was banned. Its legal in no other sport. The UFC allowed it but it was clear the numbers using it vs. the proportions of those in society was gross... especially when trying to suggest that somehow some of the biggest and most ripped human specimens suffered disproportionally by low testosterone levels is a joke.

From your link

She said he is “likely permanently hypogonadal” because he has used testosterone since 2008.

“It may be that suppression of his gonadal axis for that long may never allow a return to normalcy, and discontinuing his testosterone use at this time would be very disruptive to his career,” she wrote.


I.e.

He's been abusing steroids for 3 years and this has caused his testosterone to significantly reduce... then saying because of such abuse he needs to be jacked else he can't compete. Well he shouldn't have jacked in the first place.

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Post by marty2086 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:31 am

fa0019 wrote:
I.e.

He's been abusing steroids for 3 years and this has caused his testosterone to significantly reduce... then saying because of such abuse he needs to be jacked else he can't compete. Well he shouldn't have jacked in the first place.

'Herbst reviewed Czarnecki’s initial diagnosis and concluded the fighter’s case for deficiency would have been stronger had he been tested differently for hypogonadism. According to her evaluation, Sonnen gave two blood samples on Jan. 11, 2008 – one in the morning and another in the afternoon – that led to a prescription for testosterone.'

'Herbst did not identify the type of deficiency suffered by Sonnen but wrote there was no evidence that he had abused testosterone over five years of treatment.'

Nice of you to blatantly ignore the statement that clearly says he wasn't abusing it, so its not just speculation from you but downright lies

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Post by fa0019 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:36 am

'Herbst did not identify the type of deficiency suffered by Sonnen but wrote there was no evidence that he had abused testosterone over five years of treatment.'

Urinalysis conducted after his loss to Anderson Silva showed Sonnen had an unallowably high testosterone/epitestosterone (T/E) ratio of 16.9:1 at the time of the fight. An average man has a T/E ratio of 1:1, and testing bodies may allow a ratio as high as 4:1 for athletes undergoing TRT treatment. In other words, Sonnen's T/E ratio was nearly 17 times than a normal man's and over four times the allowed maximum for an athlete.

So TRT allowed 4 times. He had 17. No evidence he had abused testosterone whilst on "treatment".

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Post by marty2086 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:41 am

You're a doctor now?

Its happened in the past that using the recommended dose has spiked the levels beyond allowable limits

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:05 pm

Marty, there is absolutely no way in hell that Sonnen, Hendo and Belfort all had these crazy results out of pure coincidence. They had all juiced, plain and simple. That led to them having small balls that didn't produce enough testosterone and that's their own fault.

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Post by marty2086 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:40 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Marty, there is absolutely no way in hell that Sonnen, Hendo and Belfort all had these crazy results out of pure coincidence. They had all juiced, plain and simple. That led to them having small balls that didn't produce enough testosterone and that's their own fault.

Maybe try reading what two doctors who has access to Sonnens medical records and examined him say, he was treated with TRT for medical reasons. He has stated he reached puberty in adulthood and his physical development wasn't the same, whether you believe that or not is on you but two medical professionals clearly state there was good reason to prescribe them

You can speculate all you want on the rest but its nothing more than speculation for unqualified people

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:18 pm

And then there's the rest of the scientific community that wasn't paid by Sonnen who saw him for what he really is. A drugs cheat.

He tested positive for HGH too, was that also not his fault?

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Post by marty2086 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:16 pm

The second doctor was the UFCs but you keep talking crap thumbsup

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:23 pm

The UFC had a huge vested interest in keeping Chael on the roster, surely your blind fanboydom can see that?

And anything to say about the HGH result? Did you ever hear the guy speak with his prepubescent high-pitch voice? He juiced for years and got busted in the end. The UFC, despite wanting to keep him around for the money he made them, had to let him go.

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Post by marty2086 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:53 pm

Pr4wn wrote:The UFC had a huge vested interest in keeping Chael on the roster, surely your blind fanboydom can see that?

And anything to say about the HGH result? Did you ever hear the guy speak with his prepubescent high-pitch voice? He juiced for years and got busted in the end. The UFC, despite wanting to keep him around for the money he made them, had to let him go.

picard

Its like dealing with a child, you hear something you don't like so rather than accepting facts you spout crap and claim fix. So no fanboydom just case of ignorance and stupidity from you. The UFC doc was reviewing all fighter medical histories, which isn't exactly a good idea if you want to keep things buried is it? Rolling Eyes

Whats there to say about his HGH use? He publically admitted to it

If he juiced for years then why wasn't he caught with the TRT test?

Like I said, stupidity

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:18 pm

You know there's no need to be so abusive in your replies, it's a debate, not an argument. So cut it out.

But what you're saying is that he used HGH (he publically admitted to it after getting busted, amazingly) but that he can't have used steroids and that his low testosterone levels are the result of something completely natural from a very young age, despite the remote chances of hypogonadism affecting a young man.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but come on. The guy is a known cheat and a known liar.

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Post by marty2086 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:04 pm

Thats not abusive, you have two doctors and a number of Athletic Commissions saying one thing and you say its not true because it doesnt fit your narrative. If that doesn't fall into the category of stupidity then what does?

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:15 pm

You know what you're doing, stop it.

Also, you didn't answer any of my points. You're saying that you believe Sonnen, despite the tiny chance that what he's saying is true. You think that the UFC (which doesn't have the best track record with regards to transparency) would not try to cover up his juicing in order to further their own interests?

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Post by marty2086 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:32 pm

Excuse me? Im calling cowpat on your conspiracy theories

You say its a debate yet you ignore recorded evidence and you essentially call two doctors liars when you have absolutely no evidence to back it up

You call me a fanboy for believing two medical professionals working independently of each other and yet when I say its stupidity to ignore it you try telling me off? You need to wind your neck in and check yourself before calling out others

And again you editorialise everything, its not a tiny chance what he is saying is true its something thats been diagnosed by TWO DOCTORS, thats been signed off by athletic commissions but some guy on 606 says its a lie I wonder who may be right on that? Are you that arrogant?

UFC have no need to be at all transparent, they chose to release information. The second doctor was carrying out a review on their behalf, they didn't need to do that but they did.

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:46 pm

Amazing that he (and his manager) didn't follow the correct procedures in applying to the CSAC for the TRT exemption then. Surely, if they had nothing to hide and it was just a routine procedure for a chronic and long-known medical problem they would have applied for the exemption using the correct channels and surely been granted it.

But no, they said they'd applied for the exemption, which was a lie, and Sonnen was subsequently suspended by the CSAC. The whole thing stinks.

Not only has he failed the testosterone test in his career, he's also tested positive for HGH, EPO, anastrozole and hGC. The guy is a juicer and a cheat.

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Post by marty2086 on Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:50 pm

Considering he did in his previous fight in California and didn't the second time, just as he had done in Nevada. He had also filled it out on his medical form for the fight, so why highlight something you are trying to hide?


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Post by Pr4wn on Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:55 pm

Or why not just declare it the correct way like a true professional? TRT had become a much bigger issue in the time between his first and second fights in California. And he lied when he went in front of the commission at the hearing. Why did he lie if he had nothing to hide?

Also, why are you refusing to acknowledge that he's been busted THREE TIMES for doping? This TRT thing wasn't a one-off thing. He's a proven cheat.

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Post by marty2086 on Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:12 am

Pr4wn wrote:Or why not just declare it the correct way like a true professional? TRT had become a much bigger issue in the time between his first and second fights in California. And he lied when he went in front of the commission at the hearing. Why did he lie if he had nothing to hide?

Also, why are you refusing to acknowledge that he's been busted THREE TIMES for doping? This TRT thing wasn't a one-off thing. He's a proven cheat.

He wasn't busted three times for doping, he was busted at most twice those two times in the space of a few weeks for the same substances

He was suspended for failing to properly fill out his form as he had done in Nevada, not a huge leap to think the same procedures might apply, did he lie or misspeak? He said he spoke with the exec at NSAC when it was his manager.

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Post by Pr4wn on Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:00 pm

And then both parties confirmed that even when his manager spoke with the NSAC it was about procedures and not about applying for any kind of exemption. He tried to circumvent due process and was busted for it.

Whether it was twice or thrice that he's been busted, the simple fact of the matter is that the guy is a cheat. He's a doper that was using steroids, HGH and other enhancers to enhance his body in combat sports. Not only is that against the spirit of competition but it's dangerous to his opponents.

He's been disgraced and he fully deserves it.

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