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England v Wales (Bare with me)

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Post by Fanster Sat May 21, 2016 9:52 am

It's starting to look like a pretty decent shout now to organise this game, with the disjointed nature of club rugby, the dissapointment that was european rugby, and the contraversy of the 6N, it's easy to see why this game would be viewed as a natural climax to the NH season.

so, my views on euro rugby aside, what do we all think?

Have the 2 unions pulled off a master stroke, in stealing the thunder from the club game due to the failings of the club game?

Or

Is it just 2 greedy unions loooking for a quick payday where there was none previous?







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Post by Pot Hale Sat May 21, 2016 10:01 am

Eh - I presume you're a Welsh fan.

I doubt English fans would regard the season the same way in terms of their success at domestic and Eurooean levels and winning a Grand Slam. So how is this game in any way stealing the thunder from the finals that are on at the moment in England, Ireland and Scotland?

Ps It's bear not bare.
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Post by kingelderfield Sat May 21, 2016 10:17 am

Pot Hale wrote:Eh - I presume you're a Welsh fan.

I doubt English fans would regard the season the same way in terms of their success at domestic and Eurooean levels and winning a Grand Slam.  So how is this game in any way stealing the thunder from the finals that are on at the moment in England, Ireland and Scotland?

Ps It's bear not bare.

Ps It's European not Eurooean Run

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Post by LondonTiger Sat May 21, 2016 10:31 am

P.S.

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Post by LondonTiger Sat May 21, 2016 10:33 am

Pot Hale wrote:Ps It's bear not bare.

not necessarily.


He may want us all to get naked.

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Post by Fanster Sat May 21, 2016 11:00 am

Pot Hale wrote:Eh - I presume you're a Welsh fan.

I doubt English fans would regard the season the same way in terms of their success at domestic and Eurooean levels and winning a Grand Slam.  So how is this game in any way stealing the thunder from the finals that are on at the moment in England, Ireland and Scotland?

Ps It's bear not bare.

Firstly I'm from London, but yes nationally i'd agree I was a Wales national team fan (closest thing I have to a club is London Welsh (Don't ask)).

I know many English fans, who despite enjoying the 6N (When did I ever say England were unsuccesfull?) feel, like I do that european rugby has been downgraded to 3rd tier behind the Aviva and T14, with european rugby no longer the pinnacle of the NH club game.

This isn't about success, although is it that much of a coincidence that since the reshuffle English and French clubs have dominated?

My point is, the majority of rugby fans who awed at the idea of the HC final are now adrift, the european quarters, semi's and final were all dismal, poorly supported and easily forgetable, have the WRU and RFU pulled off a master stroke to engage a huge amount of fans who don't have a professional outfit to support?

It's quite simple, Englad v Wales a good idea? if so is it because of european failings? Would this fixture have been mentioned 3 years ago when the popularity of european club rugby was still there?

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Post by RiscaGame Sat May 21, 2016 11:24 am

Spooky

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Post by TrailApe Sat May 21, 2016 2:46 pm

`
I know many English fans, who despite enjoying the 6N (When did I ever say England were unsuccesfull?) feel, like I do that european rugby has been downgraded to 3rd tier behind the Aviva and T14

Well, that's it then, why even consider discussing it if 'many' English fans (who you know - being a London Welsh supporter n'all ) think European rugby is up the spout - must be true.

although is it that much of a coincidence that since the reshuffle English and French clubs have dominated?

So the Irish are having a bit of a dip - it does happen, I'm sure they'll be back next season or shortly after. Surely you are not suggesting that any other unions apart from the French, English and Irish dominated the European competition(s), so if one is having a dip is that a major catastrophe?


It's quite simple, Englad v Wales a good idea? if so is it because of european failings? Would this fixture have been mentioned 3 years ago when the popularity of european club rugby was still there?

No - it's a money spinner - a good portion of the English squad will be unavailable, what's the point? (apart from £££)

No - The European tournament (s) have no relevance to this fixture - even if you look back at the 'good old days' - how many Welsh Regions were ever in a the final? What's changed?

Yes - any Wales England game is discussed in great depth, before and after the event. The only one that seems to have dropped off the radar is the one on 4th August 2007. No idea why...
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Post by Geordie Sat May 21, 2016 3:01 pm

Fanster wrote:It's starting to look like a pretty decent shout now to organise this game, with the disjointed nature of club rugby, the dissapointment that was european rugby, and the contraversy of the 6N, it's easy to see why this game would be viewed as a natural climax to the NH season.


1) How is the club game disjointed?
2) The disappointment in European rugby this season? How is it a disappointment? Because an English team won the big one?
3) The controversy of the 6N?? What controversy...that England won the grand slam??

Dear lord.....picard

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Post by nathan Sat May 21, 2016 3:10 pm

Do you find Welsh rugby that boring that you resort to starting threads like this?

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Post by Pot Hale Sat May 21, 2016 10:11 pm

nathan wrote:Do you find Welsh rugby that boring that you resort to starting threads like this?

He's not alone.
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Post by Pot Hale Sat May 21, 2016 10:17 pm

kingelderfield wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Eh - I presume you're a Welsh fan.

I doubt English fans would regard the season the same way in terms of their success at domestic and Eurooean levels and winning a Grand Slam.  So how is this game in any way stealing the thunder from the finals that are on at the moment in England, Ireland and Scotland?

Ps It's bear not bare.

Ps It's European not Eurooean Run

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Post by Fanster Sun May 22, 2016 4:14 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Fanster wrote:It's starting to look like a pretty decent shout now to organise this game, with the disjointed nature of club rugby, the dissapointment that was european rugby, and the contraversy of the 6N, it's easy to see why this game would be viewed as a natural climax to the NH season.


1) How is the club game disjointed?
2) The disappointment in European rugby this season? How is it a disappointment? Because an English team won the big one?
3) The controversy of the 6N?? What controversy...that England won the grand slam??

Dear lord.....picard  

Firstly I'm not sure why all the vitriol, I havn't mentioned anything that isn't common knowledge (Not directed squarely at you geordie, I know i've reffed you).

1) How is the club game disjointed? Poor european attendances, 2 broadcasters not promoting the tournament, no representation in the knockouts from 4 of the 6 nations involved in the tournament, the demotion to 3rd tier of club rugby for the previous pinnacle tournament, The RWC effects on the leagues, the influx of SH players into 'French clubs', The French final being held in Spain... I could go on, if you think this season isn't disjointed you're crazy!

2) Please don't spout anti celtic rhetoric to a Londoner, it's a bit off. I have no club to support in this battle, have congratulated Sarries despite disliking their brand of rugby, and IMO would have prefered if Wasps had won the tournament due to the style of rugby they play! I, and a lot of coworkers, friend, family, and students have lost interest in the new tournament, literally hundreds of people I've come across, and i'm betting thousands and thousands more! It's safe to say this year has been another disapointment to thousands of people.

3) Contraversy... Marler actions, the media debacle, the gross misgivings by 6N rugby dragging Marler through the ringer, Word rugby's involvement, FFR trying to call up an inelligble player, the media machine trying to push for Italy to be thrown out. England deserved to win, however it wasn't a classic tournament!

The dissapointment is from the fans, lots of empty seats throughout, not as many people attending both semi finals as one semi in previous years, I'm willing to bet viewing figures are down, and as we all know sponsors are hardly knocking down the door.

Be a little realistic, 2 seasons in, the French and English leagues have grown, to the detriment of the european tournament, and the detriment of the Pro 12, but more specifically the detriment of Italian rugby.

My point is, England v Wales is a popular fixture, but mere weeks after the last time they played? and days from final games in which both sides will lose a lot of star players... Is the interest in this development friendly so high due to the failings of the club game? It's yes or no with a back up to your opinion, not an invitation for a row over the facts presented.

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Post by Fanster Sun May 22, 2016 4:15 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
nathan wrote:Do you find Welsh rugby that boring that you resort to starting threads like this?

He's not alone.  

Yes I find Welsh club rugby boring, don't you? Whats that got to do with anything?

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Post by Geordie Sun May 22, 2016 4:54 pm

It just gets to the point that any time England do well its belittled and sh1t on.

You original post lies squarely in that category...hence why I reacted because its becoming a bit boring.

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Post by Fanster Sun May 22, 2016 6:50 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:It just gets to the point that any time England do well its belittled and sh1t on.

You  original post lies squarely in that category...hence why I reacted because its becoming a bit boring.

I've taken nothing away from either Englands Grand slam, which was thoroughly deserved and congratulated by all, or Saracens win (despite thoroughly disliking their style of play)

But my point remains, this season has been disjointed compared to many, including last, which was a bit disjointed, and the season before.

My point was squarely routed in maybe the WRU and RFU have designed this match very very cleverly.

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Post by SecretFly Sun May 22, 2016 7:18 pm

Strange thread.  Fanster puts a point/question out there and pretty much from the beginning nobody wanted to take it seriously and just stick to the question.  I understand the tensions and strains of this year but, still, I thought the tone here a little too dismissive.

I think my answer to Fanster though would have to be 'no', I don't think the England/Wales game will take, or has taken, the puff out of the Leagues or club Europe.  

I think the real International show in the waiting - what most fans are thinking of now, if not still involved in a League play-off, is those tours - even in Wales and England.  

I think most Welsh fans are wondering what Gatland has ready to try to do something special in New Zealand; and with England, well, it's all Marler and getting ready for Australia at this point.

I said when this match was first mentioned a good while ago that I felt it was a bad idea for 6N opponents to start playing each other outside that competition.  The team that crows loudest in 6N each year should be allowed the year to 'crow' Wink - the 6N is tense enough without having another opportunity before the year is out for rivals to belittle the achievement of that 6N.

Anyway though, it's a decision for the WRU and RFU.  If it suits them, so be it.  The climax to the Rugby Season in my neck of the woods is now most definitely the Pro12 final next week - then on to thinking about South Africa.  The English/Welsh game is a distraction - possibly quite an entertaining one! - but a side-show nonetheless.

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Post by Welly Sun May 22, 2016 7:27 pm

a Welsh fan trying to say that Wales V England (who are missing Sarries and Exe players) is the biggest thing at the end of the season.

SHOCKER.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun May 22, 2016 7:37 pm

Ha. Almost as good as the last one Fanster.

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Post by Cardiff Dave Sun May 22, 2016 8:09 pm

Wish Wales were playing Australia for a change.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Mon May 23, 2016 10:35 am

Fanster wrote:My point was squarely routed in maybe the WRU and RFU have designed this match very very cleverly.

Are you really suggesting that the RFU and WRU knew when this fixture was agreed how the domestic leagues, European cups and Six Nations would turn out?

P.S. You mean rooted, not routed.

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Post by SecretFly Mon May 23, 2016 10:39 am

Out of regard for Fanster's health now, I strongly advise a mod to take pity on the poor guy and close this.

He's had so many kicks in the proverbials that he must be squealing like that 'pig' in Deliverance by now. Wink

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Post by lostinwales Mon May 23, 2016 11:03 am

SecretFly wrote:Out of regard for Fanster's health now, I strongly advise a mod to take pity on the poor guy and close this.

He's had so many kicks in the proverbials that he must be squealing like that 'pig' in Deliverance by now. Wink

Contraoversial..

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Post by Fanster Mon May 23, 2016 11:03 am

I struggle to understand why people would come on this forum just to spit vitriol instead of discuss...

How badly have you guys been burnt that now any question of the club season (In it's entirity, all 3 leagues, and european tournament) means the person asking the question is villified?

My point remains, last seasons european cup wasn't very popular, neither was this years, the Pro 12 has taken a step backwards similarly to the european competition, 2 main leagues have taken prominance in the NH, clubs have taken control from the unions in a number of ways, of which direct results from the club game has been magnified in French and Italian rugby teams going down the pooper...

I'll ask again for anyone willing to have a discussion, have the RFU and WRU seen the trend of NH rugby, and reacted by trying to take the shine off the club season with a match against arguably the 2 biggest rivals in the north, and certainly the 2 strongest teams right now?


Fly

Valid point, the summer tours are coming, does this match mean a nice little entry into international season (Not sure thats the right term), or the lose of the club season?

Also good point RE Marler, has he withdrawn through avoidance of playing against Wales, the media would certainly dive on the poor fella, and it's hard not to feel for him after a little rush of blood created a media sh1tstorm?

I went to buy tickets a few nights ago, it seems it's a sell out, which shocked me a bit, as England will be massively understrengthed, and it's a nothing game tbh, of which we're guarentee'd not to see the best of either team. Do England fans view this as a development game for fringe players, or are they determined to win first?

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Post by lostinwales Mon May 23, 2016 11:07 am

Marler has been covered in depth in the international threads. He's got several good reasons for wanting some time off and although 'gypsygate' doesn't help I don't think it rates particularly highly in that list.

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Post by Fanster Mon May 23, 2016 11:09 am

lostinwales wrote:Marler has been covered in depth in the international threads. He's got several good reasons for wanting some time off and although 'gypsygate' doesn't help I don't think it rates particularly highly in that list.

In his defence theres probably 10 players plus from each nation who could do with the same.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Mon May 23, 2016 11:18 am

Fanster wrote:I'll ask again for anyone willing to have a discussion, have the RFU and WRU seen the trend of NH rugby, and reacted by trying to take the shine off the club season with a match against arguably the 2 biggest rivals in the north, and certainly the 2 strongest teams right now?

How can they possibly have 'reacted', when this fixture was agreed before this season, if not last season?

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Post by Pot Hale Mon May 23, 2016 11:41 am

Fanster wrote:It's starting to look like a pretty decent shout now to organise this game, with the disjointed nature of club rugby, the dissapointment that was european rugby, and the contraversy of the 6N, it's easy to see why this game would be viewed as a natural climax to the NH season.

so, my views on euro rugby aside, what do we all think? Have the 2 unions pulled off a master stroke, in stealing the thunder from the club game due to the failings of the club game? Or Is it just 2 greedy unions loooking for a quick payday where there was none previous?

It would have been useful to put in details for this match if you're expecting posters on here to respond.

Wales are playing England when and where?

Are you saying that it's a sellout and therefore generating a lot of interest amongst one set of fans?

Not sure if disjointed is the right word to use. The club season started late in England, but normal elsewhere.

It was a RWC year so test players arrived into league comp later than usual.

The Irish clubs were off form and didn't make the knockout stages of the European cup.

England deservedly won the Six Nations. Nothing more controversial than any other season.

On the other hand, the PRO12 was a lot more interesting and had its usual final round decider.  

The playoffs were very good last weekend in both leagues.  

England v Wales second string test inspired or even interesting?   Not to me anyway.

Roll on June tests - much more interesting.
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Post by beshocked Mon May 23, 2016 11:47 am

Is it just 2 greedy unions loooking for a quick payday where there was none previous?

Yes I think it's this. Neither England or Wales need a fixture against each other after a tough club season. Especially with difficult tours to Australia and NZ upcoming.

Just a way to boost coffers.

If you want to build up this game as important for either England or Wales then go for it but regardless of who wins I think it's a non event.

The big games were the RWC match and the 6 nations games.

Both England and Wales have bigger fish to fry - notably the tri nations.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon May 23, 2016 12:52 pm

Yup, it's completely about making money. Still silly it's been given full test status but again that's just to try and ensure that people pay to go. Completely needless additional game not even benefitting a developing country. No need to see a friendly for a fixture that is played every year.

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon May 23, 2016 12:55 pm

Fanster wrote:

Firstly I'm from London, but yes nationally i'd agree I was a Wales national team fan (closest thing I have to a club is London Welsh (Don't ask)).

laughing laughing laughing

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon May 23, 2016 1:18 pm

Fanster wrote:I struggle to understand why people would come on this forum just to spit vitriol instead of discuss...

How badly have you guys been burnt that now any question of the club season (In it's entirity, all 3 leagues, and european tournament) means the person asking the question is villified?

My point remains, last seasons european cup wasn't very popular, neither was this years, the Pro 12 has taken a step backwards similarly to the european competition, 2 main leagues have taken prominance in the NH, clubs have taken control from the unions in a number of ways, of which direct results from the club game has been magnified in French and Italian rugby teams going down the pooper...

I'll ask again for anyone willing to have a discussion, have the RFU and WRU seen the trend of NH rugby, and reacted by trying to take the shine off the club season with a match against arguably the 2 biggest rivals in the north, and certainly the 2 strongest teams right now?

To your opening statement, well that's the English for you. If you started out by saying "England are the best team in the world" then all of that could have been avoided.

The Pro12 has taken a backwards step but that might be due to the world cup, we seen most teams improve in the latter half of the season, when it was too late to make a stand in Europe. So it wasn't due to Europe's new format, but I agree that there is now some disparity and the French will make it worse. How they claimed the competition before was unfair I don't know.

Your final statement, no, and stupid question to ask. The RFU need money to compensate their PRL clubs for the late start to the season; the WRU need the money to pay off debts. As for the game, well I'll be watching it. There isn't really anything riding on it but anything less than a win for Wales would be a disaster IMO.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon May 23, 2016 1:40 pm

Oh and they weren't facts, just opinion fanster.

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Post by LondonTiger Mon May 23, 2016 1:43 pm

Was Julian Salvi trying to bare with Fanster on Saturday?

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Post by SecretFly Mon May 23, 2016 1:48 pm

Showing his pillows, was he?

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Post by LondonTiger Mon May 23, 2016 1:54 pm

He was auditioning for the part of bike rack in Ken Loach's new film.

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Post by beshocked Mon May 23, 2016 2:41 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Fanster wrote:I struggle to understand why people would come on this forum just to spit vitriol instead of discuss...

How badly have you guys been burnt that now any question of the club season (In it's entirity, all 3 leagues, and european tournament) means the person asking the question is villified?

My point remains, last seasons european cup wasn't very popular, neither was this years, the Pro 12 has taken a step backwards similarly to the european competition, 2 main leagues have taken prominance in the NH, clubs have taken control from the unions in a number of ways, of which direct results from the club game has been magnified in French and Italian rugby teams going down the pooper...

I'll ask again for anyone willing to have a discussion, have the RFU and WRU seen the trend of NH rugby, and reacted by trying to take the shine off the club season with a match against arguably the 2 biggest rivals in the north, and certainly the 2 strongest teams right now?

To your opening statement, well that's the English for you. If you started out by saying "England are the best team in the world" then all of that could have been avoided.

The Pro12 has taken a backwards step but that might be due to the world cup, we seen most teams improve in the latter half of the season, when it was too late to make a stand in Europe. So it wasn't due to Europe's new format, but I agree that there is now some disparity and the French will make it worse. How they claimed the competition before was unfair I don't know.

Your final statement, no, and stupid question to ask. The RFU need money to compensate their PRL clubs for the late start to the season; the WRU need the money to pay off debts. As for the game, well I'll be watching it. There isn't really anything riding on it but anything less than a win for Wales would be a disaster IMO.

Seems a bit odd to say there's nothing riding on it then straight after to say it would be a disaster if Wales lost.

Surely that's contradictory.

No one thinks England are the best team in the world. Best in Europe currently? Maybe.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon May 23, 2016 3:43 pm

beshocked wrote:No one thinks England are the best team in the world. Best in Europe currently? Maybe.

There is no maybe about it. England are six nations champs, so they have earned the right to be called the best in Europe. 

It shows how bad this forum is getting when you see so many red triangles and people attacking the poster/member just for trying to start a debate.

We need more people starting topics off, and the way members on here attack as soon as they read something they do not like it is ridiculous. You cannot even post a link up to what you want to discuss without being torn apart.

picard

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon May 23, 2016 3:45 pm

I'd rate them as the best currently but little to do with being 6Ns champs. The nature of the comp means the best doesn't necessarily win.

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Post by LordDowlais Mon May 23, 2016 3:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd rate them as the best currently but little to do with being 6Ns champs. The nature of the comp means the best doesn't necessarily win.

England won a GS. FFS what more evidence do you need to be called the best in Europe ? Currently England are the best in Europe on merit. We have all been there recently, but at this present time, it's England's turn to bask in the glory.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon May 23, 2016 3:51 pm

Take a chill pill. I think it's either Wales or England currently. Both teams still very close to each other. Just don't think a tournement with the format of the 6Ns tells you. You'd really need to have home and away or played at neutral grounds.

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Post by LondonTiger Mon May 23, 2016 4:01 pm

If people start with a deliberately provocative post, or link to an article that contains numerous factual errors - it is hard for any debate to start.

As it is there was little/no vitriol in response to this thread. Merely mild mocking and humour - from English, Irish and Welsh posters. No Scots - but they are still fighting over the bar of soap.

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Post by SecretFly Mon May 23, 2016 4:02 pm

World Cup has no home and away - but the home side is always at home Wink

The best side in Europe in any given year usually does slide to the top in 6N. A GS then seals that deal.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Mon May 23, 2016 4:06 pm

LondonTiger wrote:If people start with a deliberately provocative post, or link to an article that contains numerous factual errors - it is hard for any debate to start.

That rules out anyone ever using a Walesonline article to start a thread.

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Post by SecretFly Mon May 23, 2016 4:20 pm

How 20 Welsh players of the past look today......

You can't knock that kinda rugby news of the weekend... Whistle

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Post by LondonTiger Mon May 23, 2016 4:27 pm

Don't forget the perennial:

20 Hot Rugby Girlfriends.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu May 26, 2016 10:09 am

beshocked wrote:

Seems a bit odd to say there's nothing riding on it then straight after to say it would be a disaster if Wales lost.

Surely that's contradictory.

No one thinks England are the best team in the world. Best in Europe currently? Maybe.

So what do you think is riding on it? I think it would be a disaster for the Wales team if they lost because they have to go to NZ straight after. If we head there with a loss I think we're looking at shipping 60 points. If England lose it wouldn't be so bad, they have their Sarries and Exeter players to come back in plus Aus (going by S15) aren't as good as last year.

I hope that makes sense.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu May 26, 2016 11:02 am

Fanster wrote:I went to buy tickets a few nights ago, it seems it's a sell out, which shocked me a bit, as England will be massively understrengthed, and it's a nothing game tbh, of which we're guarentee'd not to see the best of either team. Do England fans view this as a development game for fringe players, or are they determined to win first?
I bought a block of tickets with some mates.  Why go see this match despite it being a blatant money grab?  Those fiendish accountants at the WRU and RFU read us all correctly from the money in the pocket point of view.  We aren't going to watch a blood curdling International between two old foes.  Rather, we simply want to see some reasonably high quality Rugby played in nice weather in the Big House.  There was never a possibility either team will be full strength.  When it came to it, we didn't care.  We are hoping for a pseudo-Barbarians type of match with the ball in play and a bit of fun.  Nothing more.

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Post by LondonTiger Thu May 26, 2016 11:08 am

doctor_grey wrote:We are hoping for a pseudo-Barbarians type of match with the ball in play and a bit of fun.

Unlikely, especially bearing in mind Scott Baldwin's comments.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Thu May 26, 2016 11:10 am

Baldwin needs to concentrate on his game. He did not have a good Six Nations. But Gatland wants players from winning teams - even when those winning teams are losing. chin


Last edited by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu May 26, 2016 11:11 am; edited 1 time in total

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