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England v Wales

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Post by Fanster Sat 21 May 2016, 11:16 am

First topic message reminder :

Anyone know much about the ticket sales for this game?

I may head down for this, however just took a quick peak for tickets and there is only one block available, and not 2 tickets sat together. It can't be sold out already can it?

Anyone know?

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Post by Poorfour Sat 28 May 2016, 11:47 am

A team with 8 new caps and several others with one or two each is a decidedly shaky proposition against a near-full strength Wales. And all they'd have to do is pass wide and let one of their wingers run at Wade.

I've got a lot of sympathy with the idea of giving Robson a chance sooner rather than later, and I think Mallinder will one day play 12 for the senior side but probably needs some time with the Saxons first.
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Post by kingelderfield Sat 28 May 2016, 11:49 am

Ok as Cipriani is away etc. then yes I see EJ's thinking around Devoto's inclusion.

However true to form and I would say with some justifiable reasoning, I would actually have included Lozowski instead.

Yes he's had very little game time but to my eye has shown plenty when he's got on.

This is harsh on Devoto who is there to cover both fly and centre, and does appear to be a EJ  favorite, however I don't recall him showing anything over and above in the last 12 months?

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Post by DaveM Sat 28 May 2016, 11:52 am

Poorfour wrote:A team with 8 new caps and several others with one or two each is a decidedly shaky proposition against a near-full strength Wales. And all they'd have to do is pass wide and let one of their wingers run at Wade.

I've got a lot of sympathy with the idea of giving Robson a chance sooner rather than later, and I think Mallinder will one day play 12 for the senior side but probably needs some time with the Saxons first.

Mallinder is a future England 12, but the reason he's not involved here is because he'll be preparing for the JWC.

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Post by DaveM Sat 28 May 2016, 11:58 am

kingelderfield wrote:Ok as Cipriani is away etc. then yes I see EJ's thinking around Devoto's inclusion.

However true to form and I would say with some justifiable reasoning, I would actually have included Lozowski instead.

Yes he's had very little game time but to my eye has shown plenty when he's got on.

This is harsh on Devoto who is there to cover both fly and centre, and does appear to be a EJ  favorite, however I don't recall him showing anything over and above in the last 12 months?

Lozowski has huge potential, and it's great he's joining Sarries as this will surely help him improve, but there's no way he could credibly be selected at this stage to play for England.

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Post by kingelderfield Sat 28 May 2016, 12:01 pm

Poorfour wrote:A team with 8 new caps and several others with one or two each is a decidedly shaky proposition against a near-full strength Wales. And all they'd have to do is pass wide and let one of their wingers run at Wade.

I've got a lot of sympathy with the idea of giving Robson a chance sooner rather than later, and I think Mallinder will one day play 12 for the senior side but probably needs some time with the Saxons first.

My view is this;

many players are knackered and close to breaking and so for their own benefit need resting,

any england coach has very limited opportunity to experiment and to see how other challenging players will perform around the national set up and on the field of play.

this is an end of season jolly, but with the edge of playing Wales and so if now is not the opportunity when is?

Honestly the Saxons has questionable purpose as the head coach will always back his own eyes.

Robson deserves his chance, as do others. Mallinder should be given his head as much as the other youngsters and we must stop being so conservative.

Your comment regarding Wade is ridiculous.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 28 May 2016, 12:04 pm

I'm glad we didn't select that side as we'd have been hammered.

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Post by kingelderfield Sat 28 May 2016, 12:05 pm

DaveM wrote:
kingelderfield wrote:Ok as Cipriani is away etc. then yes I see EJ's thinking around Devoto's inclusion.

However true to form and I would say with some justifiable reasoning, I would actually have included Lozowski instead.

Yes he's had very little game time but to my eye has shown plenty when he's got on.

This is harsh on Devoto who is there to cover both fly and centre, and does appear to be a EJ  favorite, however I don't recall him showing anything over and above in the last 12 months?

Lozowski has huge potential, and it's great he's joining Sarries as this will surely help him improve, but there's no way he could credibly be selected at this stage to play for England.

I do see what your saying however you could equally interpret it by saying we'll play Devoto because he's X years older with less potential.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 28 May 2016, 12:08 pm

Read Eastmond instead of Sinckler for some reason. Think its a mistake to give too many chances at once, so much easier to shine when joining a settled side.

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Post by kingelderfield Sat 28 May 2016, 12:13 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm glad we didn't select that side as we'd have been hammered.

I just think there's a lot more to be won from tomorrow's game than in the traditional sense of winning.

We should use the opportunity to assess the next generation and at the same time protect the current players from exhaustion and injury.

Added to this what are we going to learn from Dan Cole for example?

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Post by kingelderfield Sat 28 May 2016, 12:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Read Eastmond instead of Sinckler for some reason. Think its a mistake to give too many chances at once, so much easier to shine when joining a settled side.

The way I remember them is 'lickle Kyle and 'Big Kyle'. Works for me.

The thing is this, WC qualification points may or may not be on offer, but tomorrow's game is just an RFU pay day by the benefit of some finance house. It is not an 'in competition' game and I would select very differently if this were 6N or even to some degree a tour test against OZ. The fact is its not, it a Jolly, and a wonderful opportunity to view the up and coming players.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 28 May 2016, 12:36 pm

Yeah nothing riding on it but too many changes isn't going to tell us anything as it'll just be barbarian style where the performance is less than the sum of its parts.

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Post by kingelderfield Sat 28 May 2016, 12:45 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah nothing riding on it but too many changes isn't going to tell us anything as it'll just be barbarian style where the performance is less than the sum of its parts.

Maybe, but the players will gain much from the experience, and most of all an understanding of what EJ expects of them going forward.

I do really rate EJ and so I don't think it would be totally 'barbarians', though I do take your point.

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Post by DaveM Sat 28 May 2016, 1:03 pm

kingelderfield wrote:
DaveM wrote:
kingelderfield wrote:Ok as Cipriani is away etc. then yes I see EJ's thinking around Devoto's inclusion.

However true to form and I would say with some justifiable reasoning, I would actually have included Lozowski instead.

Yes he's had very little game time but to my eye has shown plenty when he's got on.

This is harsh on Devoto who is there to cover both fly and centre, and does appear to be a EJ  favorite, however I don't recall him showing anything over and above in the last 12 months?

Lozowski has huge potential, and it's great he's joining Sarries as this will surely help him improve, but there's no way he could credibly be selected at this stage to play for England.

I do see what your saying however you could equally interpret it by saying we'll play Devoto because he's X years older with less potential.

Devoto is a couple of months younger than Lozowski (they are both still 22), and he's there because he's actually played some first team rugby this season, ticks all the boxes for 12 and can cover 10. I'd rather Devoto were touring Oz than Te'o was for instance - I'd like to see how he fares if he's given a couple of starts at 12. Hopefully he'll do well in SA.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 28 May 2016, 1:11 pm

Lozowoski has shown nothing to suggest he should be involved with England, I can't believe he's even been suggested.

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Post by kingelderfield Sat 28 May 2016, 1:37 pm

DaveM wrote:
kingelderfield wrote:
DaveM wrote:
kingelderfield wrote:Ok as Cipriani is away etc. then yes I see EJ's thinking around Devoto's inclusion.

However true to form and I would say with some justifiable reasoning, I would actually have included Lozowski instead.

Yes he's had very little game time but to my eye has shown plenty when he's got on.

This is harsh on Devoto who is there to cover both fly and centre, and does appear to be a EJ  favorite, however I don't recall him showing anything over and above in the last 12 months?

Lozowski has huge potential, and it's great he's joining Sarries as this will surely help him improve, but there's no way he could credibly be selected at this stage to play for England.

I do see what your saying however you could equally interpret it by saying we'll play Devoto because he's X years older with less potential.

Devoto is a couple of months younger than Lozowski (they are both still 22), and he's there because he's actually played some first team rugby this season, ticks all the boxes for 12 and can cover 10. I'd rather Devoto were touring Oz than Te'o was for instance - I'd like to see how he fares if he's given a couple of starts at 12. Hopefully he'll do well in SA.

Right, interesting regards their respective ages - I didn't realise that.

Lozowski has played though on limited occasions, and yes I'd much prefer Devoto, or Lozowski for that matter, over Te'o.

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Post by kingelderfield Sat 28 May 2016, 1:46 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Lozowoski has shown nothing to suggest he should be involved with England, I can't believe he's even been suggested.

On the few occasions he's been on the pitch he's certainly appeared to me to be a talented 10 with real potential.

Given Burns is injured, Cipriani was was/is unavailable attending court, then who else would you consider?

I don't wish to be a 'Jonah' but what happens if for instance Farrell's ribs are given another prod?

Who should EJ consider next?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 28 May 2016, 1:50 pm

Slade then Burns.

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Post by Poorfour Sat 28 May 2016, 2:23 pm

kingelderfield wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah nothing riding on it but too many changes isn't going to tell us anything as it'll just be barbarian style where the performance is less than the sum of its parts.

Maybe, but the players will gain much from the experience, and most of all an understanding of what EJ expects of them going forward.

I do really rate EJ and so I don't think it would be totally 'barbarians', though I do take your point.  

While it is a payday (though actually a payday for the clubs, to cover the money they lost during the RWC - which for some reason makes me think better of it), it's not the time for more experimentation than is enforced by the timing. There are no friendlies in rugby and world ranking points are at stake - as they will be in every game until the end of the 6N. Given that it's a tough schedule between now and then (Australia x 4, SA x 1, Fiji, Argentina and the 6N), the priority has to be winning until the draw is settled.

The time for wholesale experimentation is the tour coinciding with the Lions tour - the draw will be settled and established players will be away with the Lions. It was a tour to Argentina that unearthed a number of players who eventually played in the 2003 RWC Final.

Before then, I expect Eddie will gradually introduce new players when he thinks they are ready or injury and form create an opening. But throwing in tons of new players at once has not historically been a reliable way to build a winning side.

By the way, some interesting words from Eddie on the new players he actually is using: Eddie on Harrison, Genge, Sinckler and Clifford
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Post by DaveM Sat 28 May 2016, 2:24 pm

I think 10 is potentially a problem position for England over the next couple of years. If Farrell picked up a long-term injury then we aren't looking too clever. I think this might force Slade to focus on 10. Burns is a wild-card, if he can maintain his improved form.

England have so many good players coming through the system, but apart from Brophy-Clews I'm not sure we have an outstanding age-group 10.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 28 May 2016, 2:26 pm

Looking decent a few times doesn't warrant England inclusion, he's not ready.

Ford, Burns, Slade....all are streets ahead.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 28 May 2016, 2:42 pm

Burns looked to have great potential a couple of years back, was finally getting back good form late this season (seems to have become - at least for now- 1st choice at Tigers)

Ford has had a poor season but will/ should be better.

Cipriani isn't so far away either. I don't think we need to panic just yet

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 28 May 2016, 3:03 pm

I'll ask again - does anyone know of any good rugby pubs in Bristol city centre? I'll be at the city premier Inn so ideally in that part of the city and no further than the harbour front.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 28 May 2016, 3:12 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I'll ask again - does anyone know of any good rugby pubs in Bristol city centre? I'll be at the city premier Inn so ideally in that part of the city and no further than the harbour front.

Nope

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 28 May 2016, 3:48 pm

Guessing you don't get out much Sgt, I'm not surprised Wink.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 28 May 2016, 4:29 pm

I live in the Middle East mate and I've never been to Bristol. Just thought I'd pitch in though, don't like to see people ignored.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 28 May 2016, 4:35 pm

The Middle East, is that what they call the midlands nowadays? If you've never been to Bristol then you're missing out. I lived there during my uni days and it's a fantastic city.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sat 28 May 2016, 5:33 pm

I've heard it's pretty good, maybe one day Wink

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Post by munkian Sat 28 May 2016, 6:22 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I'll ask again - does anyone know of any good rugby pubs in Bristol city centre? I'll be at the city premier Inn so ideally in that part of the city and no further than the harbour front.

Probably too late now but Royal Naval volunteer on king street is tidy
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Post by kingelderfield Sat 28 May 2016, 7:33 pm

Poorfour wrote:
kingelderfield wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah nothing riding on it but too many changes isn't going to tell us anything as it'll just be barbarian style where the performance is less than the sum of its parts.

Maybe, but the players will gain much from the experience, and most of all an understanding of what EJ expects of them going forward.

I do really rate EJ and so I don't think it would be totally 'barbarians', though I do take your point.  

While it is a payday (though actually a payday for the clubs, to cover the money they lost during the RWC - which for some reason makes me think better of it), it's not the time for more experimentation than is enforced by the timing. There are no friendlies in rugby and world ranking points are at stake - as they will be in every game until the end of the 6N. Given that it's a tough schedule between now and then (Australia x 4, SA x 1, Fiji, Argentina and the 6N), the priority has to be winning until the draw is settled.

The time for wholesale experimentation is the tour coinciding with the Lions tour - the draw will be settled and established players will be away with the Lions. It was a tour to Argentina that unearthed a number of players who eventually played in the 2003 RWC Final.

Before then, I expect Eddie will gradually introduce new players when he thinks they are ready or injury and form create an opening. But throwing in tons of new players at once has not historically been a reliable way to build a winning side.

By the way, some interesting words from Eddie on the new players he actually is using: Eddie on Harrison, Genge, Sinckler and Clifford

The thing is everyone knows the players are playing too much rugby and I for one cannot see any upside to this other than perhaps for the money men and their bean counters.

To a small degree the thrust of what I am saying is acknowledged by EJ's rookie selections, however unless we take greater care of our players we're never going to challenge the southern teams.

It will be very interesting to see how far, if at all, the latest club country agreement goes towards resolving this situation, because if it doesn't then I fear the game will continue to slide into a club competition with a withering international scene where the players will be reduced to shorter and shorter careers.

Realistically will losing this game bury our WC seeding? No I don't think so, but losing players to avoidable injuries will certainly effect our ability to win in the future.

In the mean time we need to better manage our playing resources and if that means giving youth its head then so be it. Waiting for a Lions window is quite frankly the antithesis of what I'm saying. Put simply we need to let the Lions go, if the Celtic sides wish to continue and our players wish to be involved then that's up to them, but we/England have to understand what our priorities are.

As for tomorrow, here's hoping for a good game without injury, and as for the summer? Well I suspect we'll see a number of players catching additional covering flights from here and Africa to Australia.

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Post by Poorfour Sat 28 May 2016, 9:32 pm

I agree with you on player welfare, ke, and I hope that the new agreement gives the RFU much more control over the workload of the EPS players. But I do think that's a separate and longer term issue from building a winning side.

And to some extent, throwing a bunch of inexperienced players into an international together increases the risk of injury for them, because collectively they will be under more pressure.
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Post by yappysnap Sat 28 May 2016, 10:01 pm

When I see quotes from Eddie Jones, I always like to read them in the voice of the late Steve Irwin, makes them far more enjoyable to read OK

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 28 May 2016, 10:03 pm

Poorfour wrote:I agree with you on player welfare, ke, and I hope that the new agreement gives the RFU much more control over the workload of the EPS players. But I do think that's a separate and longer term issue from building a winning side.

And to some extent, throwing a bunch of inexperienced players into an international together increases the risk of injury for them, because collectively they will be under more pressure.
Since when has anyone in a position of authority at virtually any level of pro Rugby take into consideration the long term physical health of our primary assets?  Some people mouth the right words, but actions mean more than words, and there are no meaningful actions.

Regarding Eddie Jones, whilst I think he is a good coach, I don't think he gives a rats posterior about long term player health.  For example, Hartley should have the summer off after suffering two concussions.  But I am sure Hartley felt pressure (a lot from within - he is a player) to suck it up and prove his mettle to Eddie and go on the summer tour.  This is exactly the kind of thing which hurts players in the long run.    

To me, Robshaw is another who should have the summer off.  The man plays and plays.  Sooner or later the wheels will come off and he will sit nicely on the discard pile.  I would put Cole, Lawes, both Vunipolas, and Brown on the same summer no Rugby list.  They would all come back stronger, fresher, better.  Instead, no one gives a damn.

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Post by Breadvan Sat 28 May 2016, 10:13 pm

yappysnap wrote:When I see quotes from Eddie Jones, I always like to read them in the voice of the late Steve Irwin, makes them far more enjoyable to read OK

Put on a gravely Aussie accent and say 'yeh look' before every quote..
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Post by kingelderfield Sat 28 May 2016, 10:18 pm

Yeh look the poms are dead on their feet even before they've arrived.

Chucks to the slaughter!

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Post by mikey_dragon Sat 28 May 2016, 11:16 pm

munkian wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I'll ask again - does anyone know of any good rugby pubs in Bristol city centre? I'll be at the city premier Inn so ideally in that part of the city and no further than the harbour front.

Probably too late now but Royal Naval volunteer on king street is tidy

Ta.

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Post by DaveM Sun 29 May 2016, 12:16 am

lostinwales wrote:Burns looked to have great potential a couple of years back, was finally getting back good form late this season (seems to have become - at least for now- 1st choice at Tigers)

Ford has had a poor season but will/ should be better.

Cipriani isn't so far away either. I don't think we need to panic just yet

Ford has been poor for quite a long time. I'm not particularly convinced, and I think he needs a good performance soon. His size means he has to be better than his peers at most aspects of the game to make up for losing several yards every time he makes a tackle. For a while he was, and he needs to get back there quickly.

EJ obviously has significant doubts about Cipriani, and Burns needs to show form over longer than a couple of months. Perhaps he will, but I still think a Farrell injury would leave England exposed at the moment.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Sun 29 May 2016, 11:04 am

This has to be the least excited I have ever been about a Wales England and that includes the games in the 90s
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Post by stub Sun 29 May 2016, 11:56 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:This has to be the least excited I have ever been about a Wales England and that includes the games in the 90s

Yes, I know what you mean BUT it's still Eng v Wales and I'm looking forward to it in a big way. I think Wales should win but you never know some of these newer England players might just seize their chance today and give Wales a headache. I think Wales are in a difficult position in that they are the stronger side and probably expected to win by most and in that sense it is a trickier proposition for them. That said I'm sure that they'll enjoy turning over the English at Twickenham if that's what ends up happening. So I suppose what I'm really saying is that I'm looking forward to the underdogs causing a shock this afternoon!! Wink rose

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Post by yappysnap Sun 29 May 2016, 11:58 am

Didn't think I'd be that excited but I am quite curious to see how it goes for the new England players.

Tbh there's just too much rugby after a RWC and a lot of the quality is pap, it kinda gets repetitive after a while.

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Post by yappysnap Sun 29 May 2016, 12:11 pm

What time is the game?

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Post by stub Sun 29 May 2016, 12:19 pm

yappysnap wrote:What time is the game?

Think it's a 3pm kick off.

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Post by kingelderfield Sun 29 May 2016, 1:44 pm

I think it was another Jones who said something like 'time to face the strange' and that is exactly how I'm feeling towards today's encounter.

Taken on its own merits there is a lot riding on this game however nothing can ever truly be taken in isolation, least of all the reality of exhausted players putting it on the line after the longest season in the games history.

Player welfare my backside.

If any of the players who went to Denver show anything today then by heaven they'll deserve some applause. Most have endured tired seasons and without doubt should be rested now, but as we all know that's not gonna happen and so like the mob at the Colosseum we'll be baying for the blood sweat and tears of our hero's. (Please don't mention the Lions, Ed)


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Post by nathan Sun 29 May 2016, 3:16 pm

Burrell isn't playing very well...

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Post by kingelderfield Sun 29 May 2016, 3:18 pm

Nor Ford or youngs

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 29 May 2016, 3:18 pm

Ben Youngs passing is actually getting worse. Ford Sad

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Post by sad_gimp Sun 29 May 2016, 3:19 pm

Eugh. We really a new option at 10, Ford just isn't up to it at the moment.

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Post by stub Sun 29 May 2016, 3:21 pm

Good by Burrell there. Game on?

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Post by stub Sun 29 May 2016, 3:21 pm

Poor old Ford not with it at all.

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Post by sad_gimp Sun 29 May 2016, 3:22 pm

Burrell doing exactly what he needs to, great score.

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Post by stub Sun 29 May 2016, 3:22 pm

Lauchbury is up for it.

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