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Wales - ????

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Luckless Pedestrian
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Post by TightHEAD Sun May 29, 2016 4:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

Where do Wales go from here?

Losing to a 2nd string England in the fashion they have is a shocking result.
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Post by Biltong Sat Jun 04, 2016 8:58 am

robbo277 wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:For me the WRU have roughly 12-18 months to make a decision.

In that time IF and its a huge IF but IF we move on and progress under Gatland then he'll be kept on and take us through to the World Cup.

However if as many fear we carry on going backwards then they have to give any potential new coach a decent timescale to try and get us into a shape ready for a World Cup.

No matter which way they decide Howley and McBryde must go now, dont even let them get on the plane tomorrow.

Does a coach need that long?

Cheika turned Australia from no-hopers in 2014 to contenders and runners-up in 2015. Brian Ashton took an awful England side in 2006 to the World Cup final in 2007 as well, even though they were never fully convincing under him. Graham Henry and Clive Woodward, on the other hand, both bombed out of their first World Cups despite having decent lead-times into the competition.

Gatland, Kidney and Eddie Jones all won Grand Slams in their first series as NH coaches. Schmidt got Ireland to within a gnat's pube of beating NZ in his first series 2013 and then won his first two 6 Nations.

I get that the World Cup is the showpiece of the International calendar, but I think there are a lot of fallacies regarding changing your coach before a World Cup (or indeed capping new players for the World Cup).

I think after the New Zealand series, the WRU would do well to appraise their options. If he comes back with a series win or even a test win, a lot of this will probably go away. But if he comes back with a 3-0 loss, the WRU should at least consider if there are other options.

Wales have become stale in attack, Gatland has become part of the furniture, time for new ideas and methodologies.
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Post by mikey_dragon Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:00 pm

Biltong wrote:

Wales have become stale in attack, Gatland has become part of the furniture, time for new ideas and methodologies.

It's not as simple as that though, just ask South Africa.

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Post by TightHEAD Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:43 am

Gatland needs to go.
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Post by SecretFly Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:52 am

If Gatland is true to his intention that one day he'd like to go home and coach there, then he doesn't have a whole lot of time left. Unfortunately none of us are getting younger - and the coaching den is becoming crowded with new younger ones popping up every few seasons.

I don't think his decision on a future will be all that long in coming. If he gets the Lions job again, I think he'll say he's done his time at Wales.

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Post by fa0019 Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:37 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Gatland needs to go.

How much will it cost to buy him out of his contract?
Is there anyone who can do any better? If so how much will they cost?

I don't think from a NH perspective anyone can do any better. I do think his limited game plan doesn't suit match up vs. the 3N and hence why his record is so poor. His strategy in the end brings results more often than not given his limited resources to work with but perhaps big wins.

You do feel the players are not empowered to play heads up rugby. Its all worked from phase 1 - 4. Everyone has a position, a role. No one is reading the game, the opposition, the strategy etc which in fairness used to be one of Wales' strengths pre-Gatland. They always have been traditionally the most naturally comfortable on the ball in the home nations but today, put them in a situation where they have to think on their feet and they freeze on many instances.

Its a difficult one. I would say it would be better to keep Gatland but have a serious overhaul of his strategy and maybe even his coaching staff.

Keeping him I believe without alteration may bring another GS and another QF spot in RWC2019. For some that will be enough. It would only be worth it if the alternative is better but if a gem became available would it be better to say to Warren, look take the Lions job with our blessing but only if we end your contract now. Wales can move on with a coach for 2019 and Warren can thereafter go back to NZ, get a SR job (maybe even AUS say the Reds???) and put him in prime position for his dream... a crack at post 2019 NZ.

BUt its a question of is there someone available of such calibre? I don't really know.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:49 pm

fa0019 wrote:You do feel the players are not empowered to play heads up rugby. Its all worked from phase 1 - 4. Everyone has a position, a role. No one is reading the game, the opposition, the strategy etc which in fairness used to be one of Wales' strengths pre-Gatland.

It was depressing but unsurprising to hear Shaun Edwards describe Wales as a 'process-driven team'. No sh!t, one might say.

The phases 1 - 4 thing you mention is essentially timewasting. It tests no one because they know what's coming and are set up to deal with it. We never disappoint. Rolling Eyes

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Post by fa0019 Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:00 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
fa0019 wrote:You do feel the players are not empowered to play heads up rugby. Its all worked from phase 1 - 4. Everyone has a position, a role. No one is reading the game, the opposition, the strategy etc which in fairness used to be one of Wales' strengths pre-Gatland.

It was depressing but unsurprising to hear Shaun Edwards describe Wales as a 'process-driven team'. No sh!t, one might say.

The phases 1 - 4 thing you mention is essentially timewasting. It tests no one because they know what's coming and are set up to deal with it. We never disappoint. Rolling Eyes

You have to keep defences guessing, you have to be versatile and sometimes go against the grain.. if anything to stop defences second guessing you... even if option 1 will technically get more ground.

Its like as a kid when you learnt a special move on streetfighter in the arcade.... you had to hold it back sometimes despite the temptation.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:04 pm

It doesn't need to be anything groundbreaking, or even that elaborate, just something other than the usual, to put doubt in the opposition defence.

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Post by fa0019 Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:10 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It doesn't need to be anything groundbreaking, or even that elaborate, just something other than the usual, to put doubt in the opposition defence.

I do imagine the players are probably scared s***less by Edwards though. I've even seen Gatland talk about when he gets angry and him not wanting to get a dressing down by his defence coach (albeit defence is not the query here). I mean its understandable but still.....

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:16 pm

It's not a good environment if you want players to try things. I remember Mike Phillips was interviewed earlier in the season, and he said that when they were running through some moves or whatever it was, Shaun Edwards would blow his whistle the second there was a mistake and castigate the player at fault. Do you really want to send a team onto the field with that fear in the back of their minds? If a player does try something off the cuff, if he sees some space and plays outside the gameplan, and for one reason or another it doesn't come off, far better (in my opinion) to praise him for trying - as long as he gets is right next time! - than to haul him over the coals for messing it up. Unless, of course, you never want your players to try anything, ever.

Come to think of it, I wonder if this fear of making a mistake is a factor in how non-fluid the players are in simple things like passing. It shouldn't need much thought, but if you know you'll get an earful if you mess it up - especially if it's something simple - then might that make you tense up? On the other hand, it could just be that they don't do enough skills training...


Last edited by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by fa0019 Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:21 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's not a good environment if you want players to try things. I remember Mike Phillips was interviewed earlier in the season, and he said that when they were running through some moves or whatever it was, Shaun Edwards would blow his whistle the second there was a mistake and castigate the player at fault. Do you really want to send a team onto the field with that fear in the back of their minds? If a player does try something off the cuff, if he sees some space and plays outside the gameplan, and for one reason or another it doesn't come off, far better (in my opinion) to praise him for trying - as long as he gets is right next time! - than to haul him over the coals for messing it up. Unless, of course, you never want your players to try anything, ever.

He does have that Roy Keane, Brian Clough, Greame Sousness thing about him where you wouldn't put it past him chinning a player.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:30 pm

It looks like we might be seeing a bit more football after all:


"The challenge for is to stay in the arm-wrestle and to match them physically up front. When opportunities arise, we have to take risks and play expansive rugby.

"Often the difference between one side and the other has been a magical moment from someone, a flip-pass from Kieran Read or something else. The team that take the risks are often the ones who get across the line.

"The message to our players is to be bold, be smart in the way we play and don't be scared to try things. If it's a pass out of the back of the hand or round the back, then try it."


http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/16065008/warren-gatland-opts-wales-experience-first-test-new-zealand

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Post by Knowsit17 Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:16 pm

This can be repeated with extra emphasis after today's result.

Where do Wales go from here?

Losing to a second string England Chiefs in the fashion they have...

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Post by Poorfour Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:30 pm

I gather Stuart Lancaster is still out of a job, should you need a new coach. [ducks for cover]
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Post by SecretFly Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:37 pm

What's Gatland playing at? He's continuously trying to lower the All Blacks' guard. First the English game followed by a decent crack at the All Blacks and now the Chiefs game followed by......

Prepare for an even better shot at the weekend. Gatland is always playing lame duck.... it's in his blood.

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Post by Knowsit17 Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:54 pm

Lancaster is good but certainly no miracle worker. Whoever takes over the mess after Gatland will have the job of instilling a winning mindset, particularly against the top 3 or 4 sides in the world. The last 4 years or so has shown beyond reasonable doubt that Wales are on the polar opposite side of the spectrum from a winning mindset.

England follow up a GS with a win in Brisbane. Ireland go out and manage to pull off a historic win in SA. Even Scotland have secured home wins over Aus and SA, along with a win actually IN Aus.

Wales win a GS and lose 3 tests in a row to a weakened Aus side (2012). They get spanked by SA in one test and squander a large winning margin in the second (2014). They secure two narrow home wins in the space of 10 years against SH opposition. They can't even burrow over against 13 Australians (2015).

Watching Wales has become like flicking through a catalogue of embarrassment and humiliation. Precisely why I made a conscious decision this summer not to bother.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:33 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:

Watching Wales has become like flicking through a catalogue of embarrassment and humiliation. Precisely why I made a conscious decision this summer not to bother.

Good, if you're not watching then there's no need for you to keep posting.

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Post by fa0019 Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:37 pm

Wales should take Rassie Erasmus off Munster as soon as possible... and before Schmidt leaves.
I know I keep on going on about him but he is seen as the best coach in SA and has been for the last 5 years. I know a few springboks and they hold him in the highest regard.

Turned the cheetahs into a decent outfit, turned the Stormers from serial underachievers to close to the top of the SH club game.

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Post by SecretFly Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:43 pm

fa0019 wrote:Wales should take Rassie Erasmus off Munster as soon as possible... and before Schmidt leaves.
I know I keep on going on about him but he is seen as the best coach in SA and has been for the last 5 years. I know a few springboks and they hold him in the highest regard.

Turned the cheetahs into a decent outfit, turned the Stormers from serial underachievers to close to the top of the SH club game.

God fa!  Haven't you ever heard of the IRFU?  Go check out some Pro12 threads for details if not.  They're absolutely bloomin' loaded with dosh, them lads.  The WRU couldn't afford to even think about the money that the IRFU could afford to keep both Erasmus AND Schmidt Wink

Anyway, going on the grapevine, the Welsh would have to be working pretty damn quick as we all know Schmidt is potentially on his way soon and Nucifora (top IRFU controller-in-chief) has already intimated that his successor is already in the system.

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Post by TightHEAD Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:43 pm

The way this is going I'm putting my money on Wales beating the All Blacks on Saturday, and yes I have been drinking. guinness
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Post by SecretFly Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:44 pm

...maybe Schmidt has pulled a fast one and is going to Wales! Shocked Shocked

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Post by Knowsit17 Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:00 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:

Watching Wales has become like flicking through a catalogue of embarrassment and humiliation. Precisely why I made a conscious decision this summer not to bother.

Good, if you're not watching then there's no need for you to keep posting.

I will continue to express my honest opinion regardless of how well or poorly it's received. There's no law on here saying opinions have to be positive.

On the other hand you are not obliged to read or respond to my opinion if you don't like what you read OK

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:28 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:

Watching Wales has become like flicking through a catalogue of embarrassment and humiliation. Precisely why I made a conscious decision this summer not to bother.

Good, if you're not watching then there's no need for you to keep posting.

I will continue to express my honest opinion regardless of how well or poorly it's received. There's no law on here saying opinions have to be positive.

On the other hand you are not obliged to read or respond to my opinion if you don't like what you read OK

You're not watching the series and when you commented on Saturday you made uninformed comments which were of no value to the debate. Your recent comments come across in the same vein, and are only serving to bring down an already depressed bunch of Wales fans to your level. For those reasons it seems absolutely illogical that you would continue to post these postings on the forum. I was just trying to prevent you from wasting you're time anyway and thought you might actually have something constructive to do, but I guess it's a no and that's none of business.

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Post by Knowsit17 Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:45 pm

To repeat myself, if you don't like it don't read it.

It's no surprise Welsh fans are depressed. We follow a depressing side after all.

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Post by TJ Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:19 pm

MY view on the knock on - it certainly looked like one to me but the key thing is for the try to be overruled it has to be " clear and obvious" and that is was not

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