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New Zealand v Wales, 11 June

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New Zealand v Wales, 11 June - Page 2 Empty New Zealand v Wales, 11 June

Post by George Carlin Thu 02 Jun 2016, 7:04 am

First topic message reminder :

New Zealand v Wales, 11 June - Page 2 All_bl10       New Zealand v Wales, 11 June - Page 2 Wales_10 
NEW ZEALAND v WALES
11 June 2016
19:35 NZST (UTC+12)
Eden Park, Auckland

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Wayne Barnes (England)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

30 Played 30
27 Won 3
0 Drawn 0
3 Lost 27
916 Points 307

B. Recent Form

22 November 2014 - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 16 – 34 to New Zealand

24 November 2012 - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 10 – 33 to New Zealand

27 November 2010 - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 25 – 37 to New Zealand

26 June 2010 - Waikato Stadium, Hamilton: 29 – 10 to New Zealand

19 June 2010 - Carisbrook, Dunedin: 42 – 9 to New Zealand

7 November 2009 - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 12 – 19 to New Zealand

C. Teams

NEW ZEALAND
New Zealand v Wales, 11 June - Page 2 Kieren10
01. Joe Moody
02. Dane Coles
03. Owen Franks
04. Luke Romano
05. Brodie Retallick
06. Jerome Kaino
07. Sam Cane
08. Kieran Read – captain

09. Aaron Smith
10. Aaron Cruden
11. Julian Savea
12. Ryan Crotty
13. Malakai Fekitoa
14. Waisake Naholo
15. Ben Smith

16. Nathan Harris
17. Wyatt Crockett
18. Charlie Faumuina
19. Patrick Tuipulotu
20. Ardie Savea
21. TJ Perenara
22. Beauden Barrett
23. Seta Tamanivalu

WALES
New Zealand v Wales, 11 June - Page 2 Sam_wa10
01.Gethin Jenkins
02.Ken Owens
03.Samson Lee
04.Bradley Davies
05.Alun Wyn Jones
06.Ross Moriarty
07.Sam Warburton (captain)
08.Taulupe Faletau

09.Rhys Webb
10.Dan Biggar
11.Hallam Amos,
12.Jamie Roberts
13.Jonathan Davies
14.George North
15.Liam Williams.

16.Scott Baldwin
17.Rob Evans
18.Tomas Francis
19.Jake Ball
20.Ellis Jenkins
21.Gareth Davies
22.Gareth Anscombe
23.Scott Williams


Last edited by George Carlin on Thu 09 Jun 2016, 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by international198 Tue 07 Jun 2016, 3:16 pm

What a phenomenal call up for Wales. It's truly a testament to the strength in depth of this current Welsh squad that we can call up someone of the calibre of Aaron Jarvis as injury cover for Paul James.

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Post by True Raven Tue 07 Jun 2016, 3:30 pm

That call up is as daft as calling up a fly half if a scrum half got injured. So now we're playing four games this tour with only two looseheads in the squad now and one of them is way past his sell by date

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 07 Jun 2016, 3:32 pm

international198 wrote:It's truly a testament to the strength in depth of this current Welsh squad that we can call up someone of the calibre of Aaron Jarvis as injury cover for Paul James.

Are you serious?

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Post by Dai Llewod Tue 07 Jun 2016, 3:43 pm

Can't see much else other than a NZ win in all three test matches. I expect Chiefs will run Wales close too.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Tue 07 Jun 2016, 8:57 pm

I know he's involved with the U20s but as we called up a tighthead Dillon Lewis would have been the best call up to make, then again mine and everyone elses granny would have been a better call up.

Gill would have been the logical call up really I think.
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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 07 Jun 2016, 10:47 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
international198 wrote:It's truly a testament to the strength in depth of this current Welsh squad that we can call up someone of the calibre of Aaron Jarvis as injury cover for Paul James.

Are you serious?

Wtf is he on?

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 07 Jun 2016, 11:06 pm

BF, Lewis will be a good player but he probably needs a bit more pro rugby experience before flying out to NZ. I wouldn't have selected Nicky Smith either as he hasn't been that good since an injury lay-off. As for your final point I think you're reading my mind again. The obvious choice is to pick a capped LH, one that is returning to Wales, rather than an outgoing TH who struggles in the scrum. It's decisions like this and the RP fiasco that often leave me baffled.

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Post by LondonTiger Wed 08 Jun 2016, 7:40 pm

New Zealand team to face Wales:

Ben Smith, Waisake Naholo, Malakai Fekitoa, Ryan Crotty, Julian Savea, Aaron Cruden, Aaron Smith; Kieran Read (captain), Sam Cane, Jerome Kaino, Brodie Retallick, Luke Romano; Owen Franks, Dane Coles, Joe Moody.

Replacements: Nathan Harris, Wyatt Crockett, Charlie Faumuina, Patrick Tuipulotu, Ardie Savea, TJ Perenara, Beauden Barrett, Seta Tamanivalu.

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Post by George Carlin Wed 08 Jun 2016, 7:41 pm

LondonTiger wrote:New Zealand team to face Wales:

Ben Smith, Waisake Naholo, Malakai Fekitoa, Ryan Crotty, Julian Savea, Aaron Cruden, Aaron Smith; Kieran Read (captain), Sam Cane, Jerome Kaino, Brodie Retallick, Luke Romano; Owen Franks, Dane Coles, Joe Moody.

Replacements: Nathan Harris, Wyatt Crockett, Charlie Faumuina, Patrick Tuipulotu, Ardie Savea, TJ Perenara, Beauden Barrett, Seta Tamanivalu.
Looks rubbish.
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Post by Guest Wed 08 Jun 2016, 8:28 pm

Wales Team:

Jenkins, Owens, Lee
B Davies, AWJ
Moriarty, Warburton, Faletau
Webb, Biggar
Roberts, Davies
Amos, L Williams, North

Replacements: Baldwin, Rob Evans, Francis, Jake Ball, Ellis Jenkins, Gareth Davies, Anscombe, Scott Williams



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Post by Guest Wed 08 Jun 2016, 8:46 pm

No huge surprises really. Maybe Jenkins starting is a surprise perhaps as Evans seems to have ousted him in recent times. Also Owens starting at hooker isn't always the norm as Gats usually plumps for Baldwin. Has he had a knock recently perhaps (Baldwin, not Gats)?

I think I'd prefer Scott Williams at 13 over JD2. Warbs is a big worry as he wont be match fit, in any sort of form and is highly likely to pick up another injury. But can't throw Ellis in either so a no win situation really.

Really don't know what to expect, apart from no Wales win. Sorry but I am an eternal pessimist. First game up if we get everything spot on then it could be within a score. But we are always quite soft and get injuries very easily so, with this being the end of our season and already missing a few, I expect us to keep it close for 30 mins, lose a few players early during the game to injury, bring on replacements well before we'd planned, lose our shape and go down to some late scores, with us probably scoring little or nothing second half.

NZ 34-17 Wales.

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Post by bedfordwelsh Wed 08 Jun 2016, 9:24 pm

Griff wrote:Wales Team:

Jenkins, Owens, Lee
B Davies, AWJ
Moriarty, Warburton, Faletau
Webb, Biggar
Roberts, Davies
Amos, L Williams, North

Replacements: Baldwin, Rob Evans, Francis, Jake Ball, Ellis Jenkins, Gareth Davies, Anscombe, Scott Williams



Jenkins starting and no Charteris (is he out there yet)? are the only surprises for me.

Glad h's finally gone away from Anscombe and Priestland on the bench as never really understood logic behind both of them being there.
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Post by RiscaGame Wed 08 Jun 2016, 11:55 pm

Charteris won't be fit enough in Cement's eyes. As in crossfit fit.

Silly to drop Rob Evans in my opinion. If we want Jenkins to jackal, pick him at 7. Otherwise let boreburton do his job. Glad Owens is starting.


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Post by Not grey and not a ghost Thu 09 Jun 2016, 2:19 am

Welsh side named:

Starting XV: 15 Liam Williams; 14 George North, 13 Jonathan Davies, 12 Jamie Roberts, 11 Hallam Amos; 10 Dan Biggar, 9 Rhys Webb; 8 Taulupe Faletau, 7 Sam Warburton, 6 Ross Moriarty, 5 Alun Wyn Jones, 4 Bradley Davies, 3 Samson Lee, 2 Ken Owens, 1 Gethin Jenkins.

Replacements: Scott Baldwin, Rob Evans, Tomas Francis, Jake Ball, Ellis Jenkins, Gareth Davies, Gareth Anscombe, Scott Williams.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 09 Jun 2016, 9:07 am

Charteris is available and flew out to join the squad, I've no idea why he isn't even in the 23. I'm not sure why JD2 has been thrust right back in too, what is he going to do exactly, throw the ball into touch or kick off his left foot every time there's space out wide? Both of our hookers are only good for half a game anyway so either starting is okay with me. I wouldn't have minded Ellis Jenkins starting either and that way we would have had a stronger bench, a bench AWJ should have also been on IMO.

Nice to see James isn't starting and that we have good halfbacks as replacements.

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Post by chris_501 Thu 09 Jun 2016, 9:13 am

Pretty decent replacement front row too, hopefully that's an area we could get on top in, later in the game.

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Post by fa0019 Thu 09 Jun 2016, 9:28 am

LondonTiger wrote:New Zealand team to face Wales:

Ben Smith, Waisake Naholo, Malakai Fekitoa, Ryan Crotty, Julian Savea, Aaron Cruden, Aaron Smith; Kieran Read (captain), Sam Cane, Jerome Kaino, Brodie Retallick, Luke Romano; Owen Franks, Dane Coles, Joe Moody.

Replacements: Nathan Harris, Wyatt Crockett, Charlie Faumuina, Patrick Tuipulotu, Ardie Savea, TJ Perenara, Beauden Barrett, Seta Tamanivalu.

weaknesses? um.. tumble weed, cough.


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Post by bedfordwelsh Thu 09 Jun 2016, 2:35 pm

I read that Charteris isn't yet out there and is playing for Racing this weekend, anyone know for def either way?
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 09 Jun 2016, 4:37 pm

I like what I'm hearing from Gatland:


"The challenge for is to stay in the arm-wrestle and to match them physically up front. When opportunities arise, we have to take risks and play expansive rugby.

"Often the difference between one side and the other has been a magical moment from someone, a flip-pass from Kieran Read or something else. The team that take the risks are often the ones who get across the line.

"The message to our players is to be bold, be smart in the way we play and don't be scared to try things. If it's a pass out of the back of the hand or round the back, then try it."


http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/16065008/warren-gatland-opts-wales-experience-first-test-new-zealand


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Post by Guest Thu 09 Jun 2016, 7:21 pm

Wow! That's almost Anti-Gats! Wasn't it him who brought in the 'run everything in the opposition half, kick everything in our own half, don't kick out for lineouts' game plan. This sounds much less structured and suggests some degree of autonomy for the players. Great if so. Or perhaps it leaves the players open to blame if it goes t*ts up. But it would be nice if our attack was less..... Obvious.

Variety is the spice of life and I'd love to see the players given the freedom to mix it up because I know they have it in them to do so. I'd like to see Biggar mix up the grubbers, through kicks, dinks over the top. Keep em guessing. Turn them and put the pressure on. The Welsh speciality 'drift attack' will be a easily shepherded by any All Blacks side. What we absolutely cannot do is our game plan of soaking up pressure and waiting for mistakes to gives us kick able points or possession. Against the ABs we want to limit their possession as much as possible, not give it to them and wait for them to mess up. Because they won't. Or at least not often. It might work against Italy, often against Scotland, sometimes against England, etc. but NZ is a step too far. Get the ball, try to keep it, put them back in their half as much as possible. And I'd love to see us kick to the corners and actually challenge lineouts rather than kick infield and chase all the time. With long dog back next match hopefully and with AWJ we should be putting pressure on the lineout deep in the oppo half. Kicking to the ABs deep and chasing is opening a nasty can of worms that will come back to bite us as they're the kings of the kick return and long range broken field tries.

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Post by mikey_dragon Thu 09 Jun 2016, 10:37 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:I read that Charteris isn't yet out there and is playing for Racing this weekend, anyone know for def either way?

Charteris has been there all week supposedly: http://www.southwales-eveningpost.co.uk/Luke-Charteris-flies-join-Wales-New-Zealand/story-29352011-detail/story.html

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Post by GavinDragon Fri 10 Jun 2016, 7:28 am

Think we will lose by 25-30 points. We will attempt to keep in tight, we will probabably kick well in the first half and put them under a bit of pressure which will result in them making the odd mistake as they will be rusty. Then, in the second half we will be lax with out kicking, kick down their back 3's throats and they will score a try or two. Then we will attempt to start running the ball and end up being turned over in the wider channels for another 1 or two tries.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 10 Jun 2016, 10:24 am

And now there's this from Warburton:


"You're going to have to take a few risks on Saturday, you can't be conservative and expect to win."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36491554


The question is, why has it taken them so long to realise this?

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri 10 Jun 2016, 10:33 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And now there's this from Warburton:


"You're going to have to take a few risks on Saturday, you can't be conservative and expect to win."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36491554


The question is, why has it taken them so long to realise this?

The real question is will we actually do this? I say quite often that I'm going to pack in smoking, and I make an effort, then something doesn't go right and I'm lighting up before I know it. And to be honest I expect similar from us in this game. The first mistake we make trying to be adventurous, and I can see us just slapping the ball down field and reverting to form.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 10 Jun 2016, 10:52 am

I remember in the first half of England v Wales in the Six Nations, a few times a forward would offload when it wasn't on / needed, with an unsympathetic pass, and it would end in a knock on. We don't need to be doing that at Eden Park. So the players need to be able to tell when it's on and when it's not - and I'm not sure there's much coaches can do about that.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri 10 Jun 2016, 11:21 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I remember in the first half of England v Wales in the Six Nations, a few times a forward would offload when it wasn't on / needed, with an unsympathetic pass, and it would end in a knock on. We don't need to be doing that at Eden Park. So the players need to be able to tell when it's on and when it's not - and I'm not sure there's much coaches can do about that.

Trying to play things when they may not be on is part of playing a high risk game. It takes time to fine tune, and needs to be stuck with even when you are making mistakes and being punished by the opposition for them. The coaches need to tell the players that it is not the end of the world and support them in their attempt at playing that type of game. I have a feeling our coaching set up will be more inclined to read the players the riot act about dropped balls, intercepts or forward passes, and even sub off players, which will lead to the other players wanting to play safe and reverting to type. I really prey I am wrong though.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 10 Jun 2016, 11:24 am

I'm afraid you're right. I wrote this on another thread:

It's not a good environment if you want players to try things. I remember Mike Phillips was interviewed earlier in the season, and he said that when they were running through some moves or whatever it was, Shaun Edwards would blow his whistle the second there was a mistake and castigate the player at fault. Do you really want to send a team onto the field with that fear in the back of their minds? If a player does try something off the cuff, if he sees some space and plays outside the gameplan, and for one reason or another it doesn't come off, far better (in my opinion) to praise him for trying - as long as he gets it right next time! - than to haul him over the coals for messing it up. Unless, of course, you never want your players to try anything, ever.

Come to think of it, I wonder if this fear of making a mistake is a factor in how non-fluid the players are in simple things like passing. It shouldn't need much thought, but if you know you'll get an earful if you mess it up - especially if it's something simple - then might that make you tense up? On the other hand, it could just be that they don't do enough skills training...

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 10 Jun 2016, 11:26 am

If they are now actually encouraging the players to play heads-up rugby, and being consistent by not castigating players if they make mistakes in doing so, then it's a very welcome change.

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Post by ScarletSpiderman Fri 10 Jun 2016, 11:31 am

Lucky, I got to agree with what you said. And if this is a new dawn of the 'welsh way' then I think I will be willing to take a few losses on the way, as I honestly think it is the way forward for us.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 10 Jun 2016, 11:36 am

Certainly the current way isn't the way forward. Physicality on its own isn't enough against the best sides.

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Post by mikey_dragon Fri 10 Jun 2016, 12:48 pm

I think there were signs of what you're both saying in 6N just gone. It just needs fine-tuning and yes some more skills training. Another thing is that I think when it comes to this our players' skills are just 50% of what the ABs are capable of. If you look at Anscombe for example, bred in NZ, his passing skills is probably the best in Wales.

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Post by Knowsit17 Fri 10 Jun 2016, 1:25 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And now there's this from Warburton:


"You're going to have to take a few risks on Saturday, you can't be conservative and expect to win."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36491554


The question is, why has it taken them so long to realise this?

I don't think it's a question of realisation. Watch those words go down the can tomorrow when Wales fail to conjure a spark of invention until the game is well and truly beyond their reach. While it's refreshing to imagine the players have some clue regarding the team's shortcomings they never follow up this kind of pre-game bluster with action.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 10 Jun 2016, 2:41 pm

If the coaches are going to have this new approach of encouraging enterprise, they need to stick at it, and be consistent. It's no good Gatland telling a player that the decision to counter-attack was right but the execution wrong, only for Shaun Edwards to tear him off a strip for not hoofing it.

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Post by Knowsit17 Fri 10 Jun 2016, 3:39 pm

So the players have no idea how to be enterprising? They need it spelt out for them by the coaches? I appreciate the benefit of playing to an organised plan if executed well enough but I also believe it's possible to listen to coaches too closely. To the extent that you might as well be a machine pre-programmed to attempt the same dull maneuver continuously regardless how many times it fails. All players participating at this level ought to have an idea by now how to counterattack and play 'boldly'. The fact that most of the team apparently don't have the autonomy to cut loose when an opportunity to do so presents itself has always been extremely worrying.

They'll adopt an overly structured gameplan, allow themselves to get pummelled for 40-60 mins and only start to play with a hint of adventure when they're at least 25-30 pts down. It's the same excruciatingly predictable pattern as ever. Wales don't have a winning mentality when on a level footing score-wise and only throw caution to the wind when they're well behind and have nothing left to lose.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 10 Jun 2016, 3:54 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:So the players have no idea how to be enterprising? They need it spelt out for them by the coaches?

Who's said that?

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Post by Knowsit17 Fri 10 Jun 2016, 5:07 pm

Nobody in those words. I wasn't trying to contradict your critique of the coaches as I agree their approach has been sub-par much of the time.

It's just my thoughts that the players nearly always look like they're sticking too rigidly to a set plan, resisting the need to adapt to specific opponents and confront games on their own terms.

The kind of risky, industrious patterns of play and counterattacking that are mentioned require a fair degree of spontaneity, creativity and quick thinking. Much of the team have shown flashes and short bursts of these attributes at some stage or other but simply do not choose or have not learned to do so consistently. It's one of the reasons Wales are reputed as slow starters but it's more significant. Throughout most games their decision-making looks too poor and their attacking confidence too low for these more rewarding strategies to be executed successfully.

For that reason they'll often fight out a stalemate in the early stages if not leak a few tries to mentally superior opposition. If Wales gain a slender lead against NZ, Aus, SA, England or Ireland they'll often seemingly choose to sit on that lead rather than take the initiative and build on it.

You only really see Wales show some semblance of world class attacking when they're backs are against the wall. You saw it in the 6N against England as well as multiple times prior to that. Proof that Wales can be a relentless attacking side but only when they need to go for broke.

I can appreciate that some of the blame for these attacking deficiencies might rightly be allocated to Howley, whom I'm finding increasingly unconvincing in his role. But then Shaun Edwards has long been recognised as a top defence coach who would be in high demand if he was a free agent, yet Wales' defence has also been disappointing in an unfortunate number of games.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 10 Jun 2016, 5:23 pm

We do seem to have this idea that we need to keep things tight, stay in games until the last quarter, and if we're still in touch with the opposition, then look to land the killer blow. I've never quite understood that. It's like the 80-minute equivalent of 'earning the right to go wide'. If it's on, it's on, regardless of how many phases there have been, where you are on the pitch, and how many minutes are on the clock.

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Post by emack2 Fri 10 Jun 2016, 7:11 pm

I have been offline recently due to updating pc/router/services etc.so haven't
commented.
As an AB fan you take certain things as an act of faith any NZ player of any
age will have all the basic skills,plus fitness levels to play 85 minutes if
required.
Then you have to think 11 players gone from the RWC squad,many the best
of there generation.Plus the Worlds most winning captain.No tests since RWC
versus a battle hardened side.
NZ are usually slow starters in the First Test having said that only 30 odd
sides have beaten NZ in NZ.Only 2 NH sides England 1,France 4 have done
it in NZ,no side has won at Eden Park since 1994.
NO place is harder to win in than there,the side[NZ] still boasts 720
caps.You look who`s missing Messam,SBW,[7`s duties]the Ioanes ditto.
Sam Whitelock,Milner-Skudder,Kerr-Barlow ,Charlie Ngatai injured.
Luke Whitelock,Matt Todd,Cody Taylor,Sopango,Izzy Dagg plus the
New Wunderkind.
The conveyor belt rolls on, Wales if the play the the no risk up the
centre game taking points as they come they have a chance.
Kick down the throats of NZ they would be very silly to attempt
it.
Prediction NZ will get a least one maybe 2 Yellow Cards and probably
concede a Penalty try.
Wayne Barnes rules OK

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Post by aucklandlaurie Fri 10 Jun 2016, 9:23 pm


Hope the two yellow cards arent to the same player....


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Post by bedfordwelsh Sat 11 Jun 2016, 5:50 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:I read that Charteris isn't yet out there and is playing for Racing this weekend, anyone know for def either way?

Charteris has been there all week supposedly: http://www.southwales-eveningpost.co.uk/Luke-Charteris-flies-join-Wales-New-Zealand/story-29352011-detail/story.html

I thought I had read similar Mikey which makes it even stranger that he's not on bench at least, unless he picked up a knock for Racing.
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Post by HammerofThunor Sat 11 Jun 2016, 8:46 am

Lovely try

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Post by Not grey and not a ghost Sat 11 Jun 2016, 8:52 am

Good try Wales. Pretty as expected so far. AB's a bit rusty. Enthusiasm's there, but accuracy isn't there yet. Should be a good game. Good Try Savea.

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Post by yappysnap Sat 11 Jun 2016, 8:53 am

Come on Walea keep switched on here

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Post by nathan Sat 11 Jun 2016, 9:00 am

Wales need to stop kicking it away

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Post by offload Sat 11 Jun 2016, 9:01 am

nathan wrote:Wales need to stop kicking it away

Same old same old, we never learn.
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Post by nathan Sat 11 Jun 2016, 9:01 am

What a waste of a advantage

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Post by Not grey and not a ghost Sat 11 Jun 2016, 9:02 am

Right idea by Wales, up and under. Great Counter attack try AB's. Penalty Wales. AB's can be put under pressure. North looks good in space. Wales just need to persevere. Looking good on the counter attack. Games not over by a long way.

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Post by yappysnap Sat 11 Jun 2016, 9:03 am

Definite forward pass for that second try there, but brilliant counter attacking move. Who ever is meant to be marking Naholo needs to start soon!!

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Post by offload Sat 11 Jun 2016, 9:04 am

yappysnap wrote:Definite forward pass for that second try there, but brilliant counter attacking move. Who ever is meant to be marking Naholo needs to start soon!!

Amos out of his depth
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Post by nathan Sat 11 Jun 2016, 9:04 am

How is that the right idea? Nz will rip then to shreds on the counter attack. Wales need to test new Zealands defence as they have a few weak defenders

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