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Australia v England, 11 June

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Post by George Carlin Thu 02 Jun 2016, 7:20 am

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Australia v England, 11 June - Page 16 Austra10      Australia v England, 11 June - Page 16 Englan10
AUSTRALIA v ENGLAND
11 June 2016
20:00 AEST (UTC+10)
Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

44 Played 44
25 Won 18
1 Drawn 1
18 Lost 25
940 Points 674

B. Recent Form

3 October 2015 - Twickenham, London: 13 – 33 to Australia

29 November 2014 - Twickenham, London: 26 – 17 to England

2 November 2013 - Twickenham, London: 20 – 13 to England

17 November 2012 - Twickenham, London: 14 – 20 to Australia

13 November 2010 - Twickenham, London: 35 – 18 to England

19 June 2010 - Telstra Stadium, Sydney: 20 – 21 to England

12 June 2010 - Subiaco Oval, Perth: 27 – 17 to Australia

C. Teams

AUSTRALIA 
Australia v England, 11 June - Page 16 James_10
Israel Folau; Dane Haylett-Petty, Tevita Kuridrani, Samu Kerevi, Rob Horne; Bernard Foley, Nick Phipps; Scott Sio, Stephen Moore (captain), Greg Holmes, Rory Arnold, Rob Simmons, Scott Fardy, Michael Hooper, David Pocock.

Replacements: Tatafu Polota-Nau, James Slipper, Sekope Kepu, James Horwill, Dean Mumm, Sean McMahon, Nick Frisby, Christian Lealiifano

ENGLAND
Australia v England, 11 June - Page 16 Dylan_10
15. Mike Brown; 14. Anthony Watson, 13. Jonathan Joseph, 12. Luther Burrell, 11. Marland Yarde; 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Ben Youngs; 1. Mako Vunipola, 2. Dylan Hartley, 3. Dan Cole, 4. Maro Itoje, 5. George Kruis, 6. Chris Robshaw, 7. James Haskell, 8. Billy Vunipola.

Replacements: 16. Luke Cowan-Dickie, 17. Matt Mullan, 18. Paul Hill, 19. Joe Launchbury, 20. Courtney Lawes, 21. Danny Care, 22. George Ford, 23. Jack Nowell.


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Post by Hammersmith harrier Mon 13 Jun 2016, 6:15 pm

Let us down quite badly against Ireland last year when he couldn't deal with the aerial bombardment, simply put Brown is still a far better player.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 13 Jun 2016, 6:18 pm

I agree with Beshocked, Burrells best rugby has been at 13 not 12.

But I think that's irrelevant as he should not wear the white shirt again.

Also I might be in the minority, but I'm not sure Luke Cowan Dickie deserves the negativity hes getting. His throwing is not nearly as bad as every one keeps saying. ANd hes a bruiser around the park. George is clearly not fit either

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 13 Jun 2016, 6:18 pm

I'm not sure how they'll concede a lot of metres, the guy runs at a snails pace in a straight line. He'll get in to contact, do a few swerves then get nailed.

Goode has let us down on numerous, some people have such short memories.

Goode is not good enough to play international rugby, that is all.

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Post by Poorfour Mon 13 Jun 2016, 6:21 pm

beshocked wrote:Te'eo,Genge,Hill etc.

No not really no. Even if Farrell is doing a job in the centres, he's a 10. Slade is unproven at 10,12 and 13. Played poorly in the AP final.

Te'eo, the most unproven of the lot. Burrell is more comfortable at 13.

Farrell is the stop gap till someone like H.Mallinder makes the step up.

Well, possibly that last point, but Mallinder is probably a year or so away from being ready.

But for a guy who isn't a 12 he's delivered England's best results in 13 years playing there.

I'm quite happy to accept that at club level he is a better 10, but 12 is one of those positions where the demands at international level are actually a bit different from those at club. We have abundant evidence that crash ball club 12s - which is the dominant style at the moment - just don't cut it at the top level, and a 12 needs a footballing brain.

At the same time, I am increasingly of the view that Farrell benefits hugely from the extra time he gets by being second receiver rather than first, and that physically he has what it takes to play 12.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 13 Jun 2016, 6:25 pm

Well Jones is more than happy with Owen at 12.

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Post by Gooseberry Mon 13 Jun 2016, 9:11 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well Jones is more than happy with Owen at 12.

So happy he picked burrell ahead of him there

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 13 Jun 2016, 9:20 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Well Jones is more than happy with Owen at 12.

So happy he picked burrell ahead of him there

Fords form hasn't been great - Eddie elected to give him a breather and try Burrell thus Farrell moves to 10. After however many minutes he realised that wasn't right and changed it back. Hence ......Eddie is more than Happy with farrell at 12..... thumbsup

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Post by quinsforever Mon 13 Jun 2016, 9:26 pm

goode has rarely impressed against top opposition in an international match.

brown has impressed many times, and never let england down.

who will take the risk of picking goode against a proven performer for England?

i also would not want watson at 15 yet for England. brown made some great tackles on Saturday. Watson made a bad decision for Australia's second try when he came inside off his wing allowing pocock to score...

safety first at 15. brown all day long.

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 13 Jun 2016, 9:31 pm

quinsforever wrote:goode has rarely impressed against top opposition in an international match.

brown has impressed many times, and never let england down.

who will take the risk of picking goode against a proven performer for England?

i also would not want watson at 15 yet for England. brown made some great tackles on Saturday. Watson made a bad decision for Australia's second try when he came inside off his wing allowing pocock to score...

safety first at 15. brown all day long.
what happens when Brown gets hurt or breaks down?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 13 Jun 2016, 9:33 pm

Especially as this next test is going to be brutal is suspect Quins....

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 13 Jun 2016, 9:33 pm

If Brown breaks down Dr, then you have to take a chance on Watson.

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Post by doctor_grey Mon 13 Jun 2016, 10:55 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:If Brown breaks down Dr, then you have to take a chance on Watson.
I agree, mate.  My point was we cannot play Brown into the ground.  At some point he needs a break from Rugby and needs rest.  I thought he shouldn't tour this summer.  And if we need to properly break in Watson at 15 in the international arena, shouldn't we do it in a proactive way?  Instead of waiting for Brown to be a car wreck on the highway and we have to stuff Watson in there?  

Perhaps if we get a big lead we can give Watson some time back there.  On the other hand I know that is highly wishful thinking - this will be a bloody minded contest where the backs will be tested like never before.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 14 Jun 2016, 6:31 am

Ive said all along that Watson should have some gametime at 15. I wouldn't start him unless he has a blinder then start him 3Rd test...especially if we win the 2nd test.

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Post by Alex_Germany Tue 14 Jun 2016, 8:37 am

quinsforever wrote:goode has rarely impressed against top opposition in an international match.


He hasn't had much opportunity - almost always coming on for a 15 minute cameo. And when has he played against top opposition? I can't recall if he played in the autumn internationals, but the top opposition he's played against will probably have been with Saracens.

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Post by beshocked Tue 14 Jun 2016, 8:53 am

no 7 & 1/2 T'eo hasn't exactly been available for England selection for long has he? Afterall he's been playing in Australia and Ireland.....

Fast tracking a 29 year old whose unproven is questionable indeed.

Haven't written Slade off yet but I want to see him deliver. If a player is hyped up they need to do so.

Bambam wouldn't say any of them were fast tracked bar perhaps Nowell but even then he was selected by Lancaster because of injuries and Lancaster didn't trust Ashton to perform.

lostinwales Slade is unproven though and it's not a good sign that he played poorly in one of the biggest matches he's played in. I hope he can put it behind him.

Poorfour Farrell has delivered results because he's a good rugby player, doesn't mean he should be anything more than a stop gap at 12 in my opinion.

12s don't necessarily need a footballing brain. NZ have been very successful with Nonu at 12, formed one of the most successful ever centre combos with Smith.

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Post by Gooseberry Tue 14 Jun 2016, 8:57 am

Alex_Germany wrote:
quinsforever wrote:goode has rarely impressed against top opposition in an international match.


He hasn't had much opportunity - almost always coming on for a 15 minute cameo. And when has he played against top opposition? I can't recall if he played in the autumn internationals, but the top opposition he's played against will probably have been with Saracens.

Hes strated 13 of his 20 caps.
South Africa twice, Autsrlia once, New Zealand once.

However that was nearly 4 years ago.
2013 he got 4 minutes against the All Blacks, hasnt got on the pitch against a SANZZAR since. The last "good" team he started against was France in a world cup warm up.

So half right.

I guess the question is if he didnt look goodenough against cr@p opposition is he likley to look good enough against good opposition?

The previous justification for his inclussion was that he could act as a second playmaker inetrchnaging with 12. England dont need that with Farrell at 12, and couldnt cover him at the back with Yarde on the wing.

The justification for his inclussion now would have to be that hes more important to have at fullback than Brown, and is a better option that Watson with Nowell coming in on the wing.

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Post by Gooseberry Tue 14 Jun 2016, 9:03 am

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 T'eo hasn't exactly been available for England selection for long has he? Afterall he's been playing in Australia and Ireland.....

Fast tracking a 29 year old whose unproven is questionable indeed.

Haven't written Slade off yet but I want to see him deliver. If a player is hyped up they need to do so.

Bambam wouldn't say any of them were fast tracked bar perhaps Nowell but even then he was selected by Lancaster because of injuries and Lancaster didn't trust Ashton to perform.

lostinwales Slade is unproven though and it's not a good sign that he played poorly in one of the biggest matches he's played in. I hope he can put it behind him.

Poorfour Farrell has delivered results because he's a good rugby player, doesn't mean he should be anything more than a stop gap at 12 in my opinion.

12s don't necessarily need a footballing brain. NZ have been very successful with Nonu at 12, formed one of the most successful ever centre combos with Smith.

I dont think Slade has been fast tracked as such, hes come up through the system.
Tualligi is an example of a fast track success, his first full pro season out of school he became a succesful international. Even he got a Saxons cap along the way though.

Te'o is a full on outsider. Frankly after all the discord some of the previous attempts to parachute in these foundlings has caused it really does surpirse me that he was included in the squad, down the pecking order or not.

The Farrell Ford partnership may have traction. Im less convinced than others that its the solution Jones is really looking for, but you cant argue with results. Certainly it would be a major surpirse if they dont start the remaining tests, injury aside.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Jun 2016, 9:09 am

Again he's not started a game or appeared at all yet, but he's technically been available to England for a fair while. If you're really saying that 3 guys all connected to Saracens have a bias against Saracens, I can't agree.

In regards to Slade, he needs a chance now. I'd have him on the bench for the upcoming games and short to medium term he looks a good bet for the England midfield and number 10 in the longer term.

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Post by beshocked Tue 14 Jun 2016, 9:17 am

I didn't say Slade was fast tracked. He's come through the system. I just want to Slade to deliver.

Gooseberry it helps that England have a strong pack at the moment. I think that's the biggest factor of why Ford-Farrell is functioning sufficiently. Farrell with the boot is generally consistent too. Eases the pressure and keeps the scoreboard ticking over.

Backs need a good platform.

As for Goode, we just don't know if he will just be a good club player or if indeed he could become a strong 15 option for England.

Though saying that Brown should probably be given the benefit of the doubt for the 2nd test as Brown stuck with him for the 1st test.

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Post by Gooseberry Tue 14 Jun 2016, 9:23 am

I think we are largely at the smae place Beshocked. I have my doubts about Farrell at 12 (partly because hes at an increased risk of injury and yellow crad risk) but it seems a no brainer the way things are right now.
If Haskell can keep up his mr angry approach and cope with the intensity of play then the pressure comes off the backs.
England are starting to look like a good side, and you cnat argue with 7 wins on the bounce including one on Australian soil. Its a genuine step forward from a year ago...and far better than the start of the previous two regimes.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 14 Jun 2016, 9:36 am

"As for Goode, we just don't know if he will just be a good club player or if indeed he could become a strong 15 option for England."

I think we already know this with his 20 caps.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 14 Jun 2016, 9:40 am

It sure is great to be bickering with each other after the team wins 8 matches on the trot (yes I am including Uruguay) rather than underperforming in a WC or losing a GS decider.

Same level of bickering though Very Happy

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Post by beshocked Tue 14 Jun 2016, 9:41 am

Gooseberry I agree.

Shock horror that employing an experienced international coach with talented English subordinates has been a success so far.

Sgt Pooly people think May could one day be a decent international winger, people thought 36 could be a decent international centre. People aren't always right.

Goode has had how many caps in the last 2 years?

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 14 Jun 2016, 9:43 am

May is a good international winger.

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Post by beshocked Tue 14 Jun 2016, 9:46 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:May is a good international winger.

It's not 1st April... Laugh

Most overrated player in Europe. Says a lot when there's quite a few contenders.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 14 Jun 2016, 9:49 am

I've only ever seen you suggest he's not a decent Int winger....perhaps if he played for Sarries Whistle

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Post by BamBam Tue 14 Jun 2016, 9:51 am

The current holder of most overrated player in Europe seems to have a remarkable correlation of also competing with a Saracens player for an England spot

Someone should plot a graph to demonstrate


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Post by LondonTiger Tue 14 Jun 2016, 9:52 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:May is a good international winger.

I had always viewed you as a Pooler version of Mr Darcy, that tour good opinion was made early, and once lost - lost forever. However your change of heart as to May's abilities have proven me wrong. It was such a shame that he got injured as he went away and worked on his game as directed and was hugely impressive in WC and warm-ups.

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Post by beshocked Tue 14 Jun 2016, 9:57 am

Sgt Pooly a player can improve - Nowell has, he used to not be good enough but now he is. In 2015 6 nations till now he's been good.

Wade and Watson are fine wingers too.

Yarde evidently did a job vs Australia.

England don't need to recall Ashton at the moment. I would rate May below all 5 of those wingers and probably others too.

My opinion is not set in stone. I hope one day May will move from hugely overrated to genuinely a good international winger.

Bambam no not really.

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Post by Gooseberry Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:01 am

beshocked wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:May is a good international winger.

It's not 1st April... Laugh

Most overrated player in Europe. Says a lot when there's quite a few contenders.

Yeah lets not forget that time he ruined a game by getting his nose broken. Rolling Eyes

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Post by beshocked Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:07 am

Gooseberry wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:May is a good international winger.

It's not 1st April... Laugh

Most overrated player in Europe. Says a lot when there's quite a few contenders.

Yeah lets not forget that time he ruined a game by getting his nose broken. Rolling Eyes

Do you not think his injury had an impact on the game?

No of course it wasn't important... having to shift a full back to the wing early on in the first game of a 6 nations away from home. Leading to out of position players and miscommunication.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:12 am

We've acknowledged in this thread already that players need a run of games to fully settle. To call for this strength in depth down to 3 players, while saying the majority of games inexperienced players can't be tried, saying players aren't good enough after 20 min of games or games played against Saracens...

Players shouldn't be discarded or condemned so quickly.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:18 am

beshocked wrote:...
lostinwales Slade is unproven though and it's not a good sign that he played poorly in one of the biggest matches he's played in. I hope he can put it behind him....

steam


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Post by LondonTiger Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:19 am

I love how we are back to blaming the injured player for being injured, kinda like blaming JFK for spoiling the welcome party that had been arranged in Dallas.


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Post by BamBam Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:20 am

beshocked wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:May is a good international winger.

It's not 1st April... Laugh

Most overrated player in Europe. Says a lot when there's quite a few contenders.

Yeah lets not forget that time he ruined a game by getting his nose broken. Rolling Eyes

Do you not think his injury had an impact on the game?

No of course it wasn't important... having to shift a full back to the wing early on in the first game of a 6 nations away from home. Leading to out of position players and miscommunication.

Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

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Post by BamBam Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:21 am

I fully expect South Africa fans to be tearing down the doors to get at Patrick Lambie for getting himself knocked out on Saturday

How bloody well dare he

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:21 am

beshocked wrote:I didn't say Slade was fast tracked. He's come through the system. I just want to Slade to deliver..........
Me too. I think Slade has the skill set to do very well at international level. However, I believe he has not fully recovered from his injury. Remember he had catastrophic ankle damage: Ligaments injured and fractures to the lower end of the Tibia and Fibula where they come together in the ankle, screws and a plate inserted. When he returned to play for Exeter he was not overly impressive, as would be expected.

My point is I wouldn't judge him on this tour. In fact, I don't think he should have toured. I wonder if the pressure Eddie is putting on the players to do anything to earn the jersey is pushing players to put themselves up for selection when they should be home recovering and preparing for next season.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:25 am

It's now at a point with Jones that he's going to have to bring through his players. Some of these are going to be new caps (or have only a few). They're all going to be quality players, but we have so much choice we're going to disagree with some of them. Lets give them a chance!

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Post by LondonTiger Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:32 am

BamBam wrote:I fully expect South Africa fans to be tearing down the doors to get at Patrick Lambie for getting himself knocked out on Saturday

How bloody well dare he

Nah, it was his mum's fault. If she had shagged a bigger bloke, Lambie would be taller and not concussed.

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Post by beshocked Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:39 am

Londontiger I didn't blame May, just said his injury had a big impact. Do you believe it didn't?

no 7 & 1/2 players need to back up hype. I remember you saying some hyperbole about Slade being the most complete back in England, would love it if he backs that up.

I hyped up Itoje and he's delivering, time for a player you've hyped up to deliver.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:44 am

beshocked wrote:

Yarde evidently did a job vs Australia.

You argued with me over his performance v Wales in a "dead rubber" saying you'd only judge him on his performance v Oz.

And now you say he "evidently"  played well...... Interesting

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Post by beshocked Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:50 am

geordiefalcon How's that interesting? I said I would judge him on the Aussie performance and evidently he did a good enough job. Did he play poorly?

I didn't watch the game sadly.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Jun 2016, 10:51 am

beshocked, Slade hasn't yet started his England career for petes sake. Yes, for me Slade has the most complete set of skills in England (for a back). He's about to make his first steps and I think he'll go onto be a great player for us. I've never said he's a fully proven international. You however have written him off!

Everyone said Itoje was going to be a star so not sure if you're suggesting you're some reader of players?

GF he has to say evidently because he only sees England 6Ns games and some highlights of the AIs.

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Post by beshocked Tue 14 Jun 2016, 11:00 am

Everyone said Itoje was going to be a star? Laugh Don't remember you being like that when you wanted to play an unfit Launchbury in the 6 nations. Not everyone doubted Itoje but you and Sgt Pooly were two of the posters who were.

Pooly even rated his Newcastle man Robinson above Itoje.....

I've been backing Itoje earlier than any of you to make it big so in this circumstance I was right yes.

I don't have Sky so no I don't watch every international these days.

Hope Slade isn't the next twelvetrees, I don't think he will be but you hyped up 36. Don't want Slade to have a similar fate.

Not every player is a hit.

If Slade isn't fully fit then it would be unfair to throw him in the deep end vs Australia.

Like you I want England to find a long term solution for the 12 shirt and I hope Slade can fill that role but we need proof.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Jun 2016, 11:06 am

You don't remember as you don't want to! Everyone to a man on here has pretty much said he's nailed on to be a great player. I posted his name along with O'Connell, Johnson etc. A few posters (fair few) said he wasn't good enough to be picked at the WC, I said I'd pick Launchbury at lock in the 6Ns and personally I'd have been looking at 6 for Itoje.

You still don't get the Robinson joke?

And we're back to you making stuff about Twelvetrees are you? I said he's a consistent player for England who would do while we waited for some quality, you're now saying the same for Farrell. Does that mean you think Farrell is amazing at 12 for England?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Jun 2016, 11:07 am

You don't have to exagerate or make stuff up to argue your point beshocked.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 14 Jun 2016, 11:13 am

You're wasting your time 71/2.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Jun 2016, 11:17 am

Starting to think you're right Pooly, doesn't seem to read and take in points at all.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 14 Jun 2016, 11:18 am

You've just realised? Laugh

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Jun 2016, 11:21 am

Well I don't think he out and out wums so like to give the benefit of the doubt.

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