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South Africa v Ireland, 11 June

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Post by George Carlin Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:49 am

First topic message reminder :

South Africa v Ireland, 11 June - Page 4 Sa10        South Africa v Ireland, 11 June - Page 4 Irelan10
SOUTH AFRICA v IRELAND
11 June 2016
17:00 SAST (UTC+02)
DHL Newlands, Cape Town

Live on Sky Sports

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

22 Played 22
16 Won 5
1 Drawn 1
5 Lost 16
422 Points 277

B. Recent Form

8 November 2014 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 29 – 15 to Ireland

10 November 2012 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 12 – 16 to South Africa

6 November 2010 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 21 – 23 to South Africa

28 November 2009 - Croke Park, Dublin: 15 – 10 to Ireland

11 November 2006 - Lansdowne Road, Dublin: 32 – 15 to Ireland

13 November 2004 - Lansdowne Road, Dublin: 17 – 12 to Ireland

19 June 2004 - Newlands, Cape Town: 26 – 17 to South Africa

C. Teams

SOUTH AFRICA 
South Africa v Ireland, 11 June - Page 4 Al_cot10
15 Willie le Roux, 14 JP Pietersen, 13 Lionel Mapoe, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Lwazi Mvovo, 10 Pat Lambie, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Siya Kolisi, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Adriaan Strauss (captain), 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi 17 Trevor Nyakane 18 Julian Redelinghuys 19 Pieter-Steph du Toit 20 Warren Whiteley 21 Rudy Paige 22 Elton Jantjies 23 Jesse Kriel

IRELAND
South Africa v Ireland, 11 June - Page 4 Joe-sc10
J Payne; A Trimble, R Henshaw, L Marshall, K Earls; P Jackson, C Murray; J McGrath, R Best, M Ross; I Henderson, D Toner; CJ Stander, J Murphy, J Heaslip

Replacements: S Cronin, F Bealham, T Furlong, U Dillane, R Ruddock, K Marmion, I Madigan, C Gilroy.


Last edited by George Carlin on Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:46 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Guest Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:30 pm

Notch wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Pat Lam will be the fans' favourite.  That's of course another hint that Nucifora popped out recently when he said Joe's successor is already in the system.  Kiss or Lam.

Please let it be Lam. Please, please, please...

Amen angel

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Post by SecretFly Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:38 pm

We said that about Schmidt.

Look how popular he is three years down the line....
Be careful what you wish for.

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Post by Guest Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:41 pm

My reasons are entirely selfish. I just don't want Kiss to leave Ulster.

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Post by SecretFly Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:45 pm

Kiss is proving pretty good up in Ulster... I like his brand - quite different from the rugby he tended to be involved in at Ireland.

So let him try her a third time, this time as head boss honcho chief???

Why the hell not!

Kiss for Ireland Wink

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Post by Notch Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:50 pm

SecretFly wrote:We said that about Schmidt.  

Look how popular he is three years down the line....
Be careful what you wish for.

I know exactly what I'm wishing for and thats Ulster to get at least two more seasons under Les Kiss to give us a bit of stability and continuity without the IRFU poking their noses in!

If the next Ireland coach does a good job, great, but so long as it isn't Kiss.

As for popularity- we've won three 6N championships in my lifetime and after each of them there have been fans who have heavily criticised the coach anyway, as well as those who have begrudgingly stopped criticising for 5 minutes after the trophy presentation before finding another reason to stick the boot in. There is no coach in World Rugby who will be coach of Ireland and be popular with all the fans. It's not possible unless we find someone who can satisfy the IRFUs short term need for results by winning every home game while simultaneously blooding young talent and playing ambitious, attacking rugby with squads that are composed on some sort of provincial quota system. He can't be a foreigner, lest the George Hooks of this world get upset, but he also can not be from Ulster, Connacht, Munster or Leinster lest he be accused of bias to any of the above laughing
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Post by SecretFly Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:01 pm

So we're all agreed then?  Kiss to Ireland and then a revolving of current Provincial coaches to fill in the blanks.  

Lam goes to Leinster because he'll be closer to home there and won't be so homesick.
McCall is dragged back to Ireland and forced to coach Munster - as penance for being Devil in Charge of the World's 'Favourite' Club.
Erasmus pops up to Connacht, now that he's no longer needed at Munster.

And Foley goes to the boys up North - because he'll be so f**kin' furious that he'll take them all the way to the top of Pro12, Top14, Super Rugby and ERCC in the one f**king year!!!  mad  F**k yis! mad

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Post by Guest Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:29 pm

SecretFly wrote:Kiss is proving pretty good up in Ulster... I like his brand - quite different from the rugby he tended to be involved in at Ireland.

So let him try her a third time, this time as head boss honcho chief???  

Why the hell not!

Kiss for Ireland Wink

Yeah, in Ulster he's doing ....... ok. He is yet to prove himself as a head coach. Needs lots of time, maybe three years, before taking on such a responsible role at international level. You know it makes sense angel

Anyway, the IRFU has brought in Erazmus for the role. Only reason he would sign up to Munster Very Happy

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Post by wolfball Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:50 pm

Notch wrote:
SecretFly wrote:We said that about Schmidt.  

Look how popular he is three years down the line....
Be careful what you wish for.

I know exactly what I'm wishing for and thats Ulster to get at least two more seasons under Les Kiss to give us a bit of stability and continuity without the IRFU poking their noses in!

If the next Ireland coach does a good job, great, but so long as it isn't Kiss.

As for popularity- we've won three 6N championships in my lifetime and after each of them there have been fans who have heavily criticised the coach anyway, as well as those who have begrudgingly stopped criticising for 5 minutes after the trophy presentation before finding another reason to stick the boot in. There is no coach in World Rugby who will be coach of Ireland and be popular with all the fans. It's not possible unless we find someone who can satisfy the IRFUs short term need for results by winning every home game while simultaneously blooding young talent and playing ambitious, attacking rugby with squads that are composed on some sort of provincial quota system. He can't be a foreigner, lest the George Hooks of this world get upset, but he also can not be from Ulster, Connacht, Munster or Leinster lest he be accused of bias to any of the above laughing

Exactly... half (or more) of the people on here decrying our Multi-championship winning coach for every.single.bloody.decision will have the knives out for Lam before he has the couple of seasons needed to upskill the national team (losing to scotland and italy during the process). Who would be Ireland coach? Only the England coach is a worse job in rugby with our fans.

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Post by rodders Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:00 am

Looks to me like Farrell will be taking over. It explains why he jumped ship to the Irish camp.

Can't blame Schmidt for leaving, the tribal and xenophobic attitude of a large percentage of the media and public here particularly is pretty shocking - he must feel he can't win no matter what he achieve's he'll be criticized.
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Post by Sin é Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:10 am

rodders wrote:Looks to me like Farrell will be taking over. It explains why he jumped ship to the Irish camp.

Can't blame Schmidt for leaving, the tribal and xenophobic attitude of a large percentage of the media and public here particularly is pretty shocking - he must feel he can't win no matter what he achieve's he'll be criticized.

Farrell didn't jump ship. He was sacked.

Its a good time to go for Schmidt - he is being found out. Gordon D'Arcy's article in the Times today explains very well Schmidt's robotic coaching philosophy.

Gordon D'Arcy wrote:
...... Demand an intellectual approach. The players who understand it, those with sufficient discipline and mental strength will be selected. Those without, as we have seen, do not make a Schmidt team.

That’s all the so-called Joe Schmidt type of player is really.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gordon-d-arcy-schmidt-s-good-habits-ultimately-lead-to-big-rewards-1.2676160
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Post by SecretFly Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:28 am

Sin é wrote:

Gordon D'Arcy wrote:
...... Demand an intellectual approach. The players who understand it, those with sufficient discipline and mental strength will be selected. Those without, as we have seen, do not make a Schmidt team.

That’s all the so-called Joe Schmidt type of player is really.


Good one Sin. But it's the words before the dots and the words after your D'Arcy quote that you missed. Wink

"Change the approach to alter bad or ineffective habits....."
".... by following the step by step process preached by Schmidt we saw a chain of events leading to the rewards. Once we clicked on the road in big European games the belief in how we went about our business was cemented. Belief in the process came from belief in the man. With Ireland it was when non-Leinster players like Paul O’Connell and Rory Best quickly embraced the philosophy."

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Post by Golden Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:41 am

Coach likes players who can play to his game plan. SHOCK

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Post by SecretFly Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:47 am

D'Arcy writes an article praising Schmidt and Sin uses it to say it's the right time for Joe to go as D'Arcy thinks he's been found out as a coach.

The whacky world of Irish rugby fandom continues on 606v2.

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Post by rodders Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:10 am

Sin é wrote:
rodders wrote:Looks to me like Farrell will be taking over. It explains why he jumped ship to the Irish camp.

Can't blame Schmidt for leaving, the tribal and xenophobic attitude of a large percentage of the media and public here particularly is pretty shocking - he must feel he can't win no matter what he achieve's he'll be criticized.

Farrell didn't jump ship. He was sacked.

Its a good time to go for Schmidt - he is being found out. Gordon D'Arcy's article in the Times today explains very well Schmidt's robotic coaching philosophy.

He had options to return to club rugby for more money - obviously the IRFU offered some incentive. He'd also hove been aware that Joe's contract was up, it's obvious he's the replacement.
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Post by Sin é Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:21 am

SecretFly wrote:D'Arcy writes an article praising Schmidt and Sin uses it to say it's the right time for Joe to go as D'Arcy thinks he's been found out as a coach.

The whacky world of Irish rugby fandom continues on 606v2.

D'Arcy is explaining Schmidt's robotic approach. Don't think he is particularly praising it. If its so good, why do you need any on-field leaders?
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Post by SecretFly Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:25 am

He was praising it.

He certainly wasn't saying it was shyte. Why do you regard it as a critical tone? Show me where in that article the 'critical tone' is articulated more clearly?

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Post by rodders Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:26 am

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:D'Arcy writes an article praising Schmidt and Sin uses it to say it's the right time for Joe to go as D'Arcy thinks he's been found out as a coach.

The whacky world of Irish rugby fandom continues on 606v2.

D'Arcy is explaining Schmidt's robotic approach. Don't think he is particularly praising it. If its so good, why do you need any on-field leaders?

The same reason we still need IT staff despite the fact we have computers.
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Post by carpet baboon Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:27 am

rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:D'Arcy writes an article praising Schmidt and Sin uses it to say it's the right time for Joe to go as D'Arcy thinks he's been found out as a coach.

The whacky world of Irish rugby fandom continues on 606v2.

D'Arcy is explaining Schmidt's robotic approach. Don't think he is particularly praising it. If its so good, why do you need any on-field leaders?

The same reason we still need IT staff despite the fact we have computers.

Best. Reply. Ever. Very Happy

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Post by Sin é Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:34 am

SecretFly wrote:He was praising it.

He certainly wasn't saying it was shyte.  Why do you regard it as a critical tone?  Show me where in that article the 'critical tone' is articulated more clearly?

I don't think there was any tone to it.
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Post by Sin é Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:36 am

rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:D'Arcy writes an article praising Schmidt and Sin uses it to say it's the right time for Joe to go as D'Arcy thinks he's been found out as a coach.

The whacky world of Irish rugby fandom continues on 606v2.

D'Arcy is explaining Schmidt's robotic approach. Don't think he is particularly praising it. If its so good, why do you need any on-field leaders?

The same reason we still need IT staff despite the fact we have computers.

Who needs IT staff. Computers are disposable now. Just throw them out when they break down and get a new one. Yahoo
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Post by rodders Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:42 am

Sin é wrote:
rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:D'Arcy writes an article praising Schmidt and Sin uses it to say it's the right time for Joe to go as D'Arcy thinks he's been found out as a coach.

The whacky world of Irish rugby fandom continues on 606v2.

D'Arcy is explaining Schmidt's robotic approach. Don't think he is particularly praising it. If its so good, why do you need any on-field leaders?

The same reason we still need IT staff despite the fact we have computers.

Who needs IT staff. Computers are disposable now. Just throw them out when they break down and get a new one. Yahoo

Pity we didn't take that approach with some of the national squad Smile
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Post by SecretFly Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:44 am

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:He was praising it.

He certainly wasn't saying it was shyte.  Why do you regard it as a critical tone?  Show me where in that article the 'critical tone' is articulated more clearly?

I don't think there was any tone to it.

so it was a Schmidtmetric Robotic tone. Yet you quote it as an opinion with meaning?

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Post by SecretFly Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:47 am

Sin é wrote:

Who needs IT staff. Computers are disposable now. Just throw them out when they break down and get a new one. Yahoo

Computers are only disposable if you have enough funds to buy one with a better spec.

I think we might be going from an Apple to an Acer.

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Post by eirebilly Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:20 am

I do not think that Joe is a bad coach but I do believe he is very limited in his approach. As I said earlier, some coaches (Lam, Jones, Cotter etc.) recognise the individual skills in certain players and adjust their game plans to suit. Joe is extremely regimented and expects everyone to play to his game plan which is good for some players as they up their level under him but more talented player have to reduce their level to adjust to his plan.

We saw this 6N that Ireland were trying to play a more expansive game but a lot of the players that were selected were not the correct players to play that style.

With the young talent coming through in Ireland, Ireland need a more dynamic coach Lam/McCall would be high on my list.
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Post by Biltong Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:44 am

I remember when Schmidt was initially appointed to coach Ireland he was hailed agreat coach.

I wonder what happened to change that perception?
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Post by fa0019 Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:46 am

probably a trend... "in decca's we trust". Remember that one.

Often new coaches in the home nations seem to smash it early doors and then slowly drift down.

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Post by Pete330v2 Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:47 am

eirebilly wrote:I do not think that Joe is a bad coach but I do believe he is very limited in his approach. As I said earlier, some coaches (Lam, Jones, Cotter etc.) recognise the individual skills in certain players and adjust their game plans to suit. Joe is extremely regimented and expects everyone to play to his game plan which is good for some players as they up their level under him but more talented player have to reduce their level to adjust to his plan.

We saw this 6N that Ireland were trying to play a more expansive game but a lot of the players that were selected were not the correct players to play that style.

With the young talent coming through in Ireland, Ireland need a more dynamic coach Lam/McCall would be high on my list.

Agreed yet again Billy.
Irish sides have always thrived on semi-controlled chaos. The strictly regimented and formulaic regime may have worked with Leinster where Joe had access to the players 24/7 but I can't see how it can work with players he gets comparatively little access to. They go through their lines with Joe at international time only to return to the provinces to sing from a very different hymn sheet.

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Post by SecretFly Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:49 am

eirebilly wrote:I do not think that Joe is a bad coach but I do believe he is very limited in his approach. As I said earlier, some coaches (Lam, Jones, Cotter etc.) recognise the individual skills in certain players and adjust their game plans to suit. Joe is extremely regimented and expects everyone to play to his game plan which is good for some players as they up their level under him but more talented player have to reduce their level to adjust to his plan.

We saw this 6N that Ireland were trying to play a more expansive game but a lot of the players that were selected were not the correct players to play that style.

With the young talent coming through in Ireland, Ireland need a more dynamic coach Lam/McCall would be high on my list.

And the expansive players that weren't picked don't (according to Joe - and sometimes even according to evidence) don't always have the necessary getting-stuck-in qualities that they need to show when not trying to run in a score.

Schmidt wants all players to play FOR all players, so that some players don't have to carry most of the load in tough, exhausting International games against ever improving sides.

Who was a prime example of what we're talking about?  Infamous Zebo.  Who came into Ireland expecting to be left out on the wing to take care of the zoom and score business.  Lovely, and we all love that desire in him.  But other guys had to do the work for him in the raw stuff if he didn't do a full 80minute game of effort and sweat.

What Joe is doing is acknowledging the limits we all know we have in bulk and pace.  He's saying these are tough games to begin with, no Irish player needs extra duty thrown his way so that some wing can regard his role as a self appointed freebird waiting on the edges for his time to shine.

Our difficulty was in finding out that our players weren't up to it in conditioning terms - if they defended too much, they ran out of creative ideas and vice versa.  Schmidt is only now beginning to see players with a drop of all good things come to the fore.  But it seems it's too little too late.

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Post by SecretFly Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:52 am

Biltong wrote:I remember when Schmidt was initially appointed to coach Ireland he was hailed agreat coach.

I wonder what happened to change that perception?

It hasn't changed with all of us.  He is a great coach.  There are plenty in Ireland who still think he's a great coach.  He's had slim pickings in selections especially when some central players are injured.  To be expected, we're not exactly England, France or South Africa as I keep saying.  Joe is a great coach.  And if he leaves, I'm sure the world will become aware of it again at some point down the line.

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Post by eirebilly Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:10 am

Fly,

Sometimes players have to be left to express themselves. Schmidt is excellent at bringing average players to a good standard but equally good at bringing excellent players down to a good standard. This approach has a very limited shelf life, as we can see in Irelands decline.

Look at what Lam has done, his team have no fear in expressing themselves and Lam actually encourages it. Now I am not saying that Lam would make a great head coach for Ireland but he has produced one of the most entertaining sides in Ireland whilst keeping them winning. Its been refreshingly fantastic to watch Connacht develop under him.
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Post by Pete330v2 Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:13 am

"Ireland: Again, this looks to be merely about saving face. The injury-ravaged Irish will be chewed up. Their goal, one imagines, would be retain some semblance of dignity as they are spat out."

And that's Planet Rugby's view on the tour written by a very cocky Saffer no doubt Wink

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Post by rodders Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:18 am

Biltong wrote:I remember when Schmidt was initially appointed to coach Ireland he was hailed agreat coach.

I wonder what happened to change that perception?

Same thing happened his predecessors... he made the mistake giving the nation hope, then taking it away by losing some games.

Hopefully the next coach will be unsuccessful from the outset then we can all get behind them.
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Post by SecretFly Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:29 am

eirebilly wrote:Fly,

Sometimes players have to be left to express themselves. Schmidt is excellent at bringing average players to a good standard but equally good at bringing excellent players down to a good standard. This approach has a very limited shelf life, as we can see in Irelands decline.

Look at what Lam has done, his team have no fear in expressing themselves and Lam actually encourages it. Now I am not saying that Lam would make a great head coach for Ireland but he has produced one of the most entertaining sides in Ireland whilst keeping them winning. Its been refreshingly fantastic to watch Connacht develop under him.

What Lam has done?  As in win the Pro12?  Yeah.  Great.  Hopefully he keeps it going.  What did Schmidt do at Provincial Level?  Have you all started to lose the memories?  His Provincial record is worthless yet Lam gets mentioned in an International thread for bringing Connacht to the top of Pro12?

They weren't exactly a bunch of average players at Leinster when he showed up.  They'd already done it all and were already feeling the lack of 'bite' with Cheika of all people still in charge.  They wanted to re-engage with their looser, more creative selves and brought in a headhunted assistant coach that the players themselves had eyes on.  And he gave them the lift they needed and the confidence to be the best side in Europe for a few years - Playing a sweet and lethal game.

But no - it's Schmidt that doesn't want to play that game again.  It's him that prefers box-kicks.  The players have and had all the tools to be the All Blacks of Europe Wink - Joe holding them back.

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Post by the-goon Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:01 am

eirebilly wrote:Fly,

Sometimes players have to be left to express themselves. Schmidt is excellent at bringing average players to a good standard but equally good at bringing excellent players down to a good standard. This approach has a very limited shelf life, as we can see in Irelands decline.

Look at what Lam has done, his team have no fear in expressing themselves and Lam actually encourages it. Now I am not saying that Lam would make a great head coach for Ireland but he has produced one of the most entertaining sides in Ireland whilst keeping them winning. Its been refreshingly fantastic to watch Connacht develop under him.

How is one poor, injury ravaged, season a decline?

Also please define "express themselves" exactly, it is a great buzzword that means nothing in reality. The reality is that space in International rugby is so limited, so you need to create it either by boshing through or manipulating holes via multi-phased attacks. Off the cuff play doesn't cut it anymore, there simply isn't ever that space. Both of these approaches require a team to be drilled to the nth degree, each player needs to know their role and their teammates as well, they need to know what they are going to do.
Do you think Connachts play isn't structured? It is the most structured in the league, that is why they won it. The structure is designed to give the ball carrier 3 or 4 options each time, the player must then make the correct decision. The game plan is not to kick the ball, rather back the structure to make meters with the ball in hand. At the end of the day, all the options a player has fall within the structure/game plan. However they "express" themselves, it is within the structure.

Can you please give examples of "excellent" players being reduced to merely "good", preferably from his time as Ireland coach . For it to be a clear issue I assume you have a few.

You say his style has a short shelf life, well even if that is the case, he is still our most successful coach ever...


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Post by wolfball Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:12 am

If he is really going, I am incredibly disappointed. He brought some of the great days to an Irish fan in my lifetime and he has so much more to give. We have clearly completely changed our gameplan, and people are still on about how we kick too much... the mind boggles. As I said earlier, leave Lam with us, we appreciate the STRUCTURES he has (and is) building. Structures that the usual group will be moaning about if he was Irish coach and the 3rd choice back is on the bench ahead of the 4th choice back...

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Post by eirebilly Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:29 am

I did not say that Connacht did not play a structured game, I said that Lam encourages players to express their individual skill and forms several game plans around them. Connacht is one of the best team at adjusting to in match situations. I also did not say that Lam would be a success as the Irish coach (although I would like to think he would be), I just used him as an example of how a coach can set a game plan to certain players individual skill sets.

Irelands decline is very visible in my eyes. The style that they were playing worked but has been found out. Ireland tried to develop a different style during the 6N which I very much enjoyed and was impressed with some of the performances even if Ireland did not get the results. My issues with that approach was that I don't believe that the correct players were selected for that approach to work.

Zebo is prime example of an energetic exciting player that was brought down a level to adjust to the Schmidt system. So much so that I am not so sure he should be in an Ireland squad.

Dave Kearney is a player that I believe is not good enough but Schmidt gets the best out of him and he performs above his ability at International level.

These are just my opinions, this is not a snide attack at Schmidt.
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Post by theslosty Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:37 am

I wouldn't talk about Zebo being an "excellent" player. And in fairness Schmidt had him playing pretty well at 15 towards the end of the 6N.

Instead, let's talk about Ireland's genuine world class individuals from the past 5 years who have played under Schmidt. Cian Healy, Paul O'Connell, Sean O'Brien, Jonathan Sexton and Brian O'Driscoll.
Care to point out which of those names that were "brought down a level" by Schmidt?
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Post by SecretFly Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:43 am

Zebo was not brought down a level - he was told to join in.  
Do - your - bit, so that all players can motor through an 80 minutes.  

Zebo for a period found that the ask was too much.  Joining in and also keeping an eye on an opening was proving too big an ask. His mind resisted.  And that fact hit not just him but others who believed they had what it took to score the eye-candy tries.

I've kept saying all along that the brand of rugby played is determined by the engine you have to play it.  And I kept getting told by many here that all our boys were right up there, that they had plenty flash in their pants that could last a full 80 minutes of high tempo International rugby.  
Only the opposite was proved time and time again.  The juice for the beautiful rugby wasn't there.  I HOPE it's now going to become much more of a focus and seems to be from looking at Connacht and Ulster play.  But to date, the Irish team have found it difficult to master the game people want because they've often simply been burned by much fitter players who could absorb the hits and keep the energy in attack.

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Post by rodders Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:47 am

Well I can't wait to see the back of Schmidt, then we can get back to having wingers who don't need to catch the ball, tackle or ruck and the tall poppies can have their day in the sun again.
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Post by the-goon Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:15 am

eirebilly wrote:I did not say that Connacht did not play a structured game, I said that Lam encourages players to express their individual skill and forms several game plans around them. Connacht is one of the best team at adjusting to in match situations. I also did not say that Lam would be a success as the Irish coach (although I would like to think he would be), I just used him as an example of how a coach can set a game plan to certain players individual skill sets.

Irelands decline is very visible in my eyes. The style that they were playing worked but has been found out. Ireland tried to develop a different style during the 6N which I very much enjoyed and was impressed with some of the performances even if Ireland did not get the results. My issues with that approach was that I don't believe that the correct players were selected for that approach to work.

Zebo is prime example of an energetic exciting player that was brought down a level to adjust to the Schmidt system. So much so that I am not so sure he should be in an Ireland squad.

Dave Kearney is a player that I believe is not good enough but Schmidt gets the best out of him and he performs above his ability at International level.

These are just my opinions, this is not a snide attack at Schmidt.

Read: I've been praying for poor results so I can stick the boot in Schmidt.

Just one example then? So JS doesn't have a track record of turning excellent players into merely good, it is just one isolated incident. And as for the example you gave, well at international level Zebo is not excellent. He is barely a top 10 winger in the 6 nations.

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Post by lostinwales Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:27 am

SecretFly wrote:Zebo was not brought down a level - he was told to join in.  
Do - your - bit, so that all players can motor through an 80 minutes.  

Zebo for a period found that the ask was too much.  Joining in and also keeping an eye on an opening was proving too big an ask.  His mind resisted.  And that fact hit not just him but others who believed they had what it took to score the eye-candy tries.

I've kept saying all along that the brand of rugby played is determined by the engine you have to play it.  And I kept getting told by many here that all our boys were right up there, that they had plenty flash in their pants that could last a full 80 minutes of high tempo International rugby.  
Only the opposite was proved time and time again.  The juice for the beautiful rugby wasn't there.  I HOPE it's now going to become much more of a focus and seems to be from looking at Connacht and Ulster play.  But to date, the Irish team have found it difficult to master the game people want because they've often simply been burned by much fitter players who could absorb the hits and keep the energy in attack.

Re: Zebo - do you believe its because he just doesn't have it in him or has he just failed to (be) develop(ed)?

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Post by eirebilly Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:27 am

the-goon wrote:

Read: I've been praying for poor results so I can stick the boot in Schmidt.


Oh dear... picard


Last edited by eirebilly on Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Notch Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:27 am

In my view Zebo would probably get into the Italy team, wouldn't get into the England, French or Scottish teams- might get into the Wales team. It's hard to fathom why he's so highly rated, I think because he is a type of winger we don't produce many of. He's perceived as being a 'maverick' and an 'entertainer' and I suppose he is, he's just not an amazing example of that type of winger- i.e. He's not good enough to get away with not doing the less glamorous things really well too, he's not going to do a Rokocoko or a Sivivatu or a Caucau and break a game open by himself with an awesome break from nothing. He's no Campese! But there's a good player in there waiting to get out. He's a good player not a great one. Compared to other Irish wingers he wouldn't be in the same league as a Tommy Bowe or a Keith Earls, or even a Trimble for me.


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Post by rodders Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:31 am

He's the most overrated winger from Munster since Keith Earls.

Give me Anthony Horgan or Ian Dowling any day of the week.
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Post by SecretFly Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:46 am

lostinwales wrote:

Re: Zebo - do you believe its because he just doesn't have it in him or has he just failed to (be) develop(ed)?

Zebo has it in him but needs a certain kind of coach to really bring it to the bubble. Zebo has had too much publicity pushed his way too early - and, may I say, too many people in the media and elsewhere getting behind the zeebuzz and swelling the ego a little by starting this campaign back then to have the one true saviour of Irish rugby allowed into the team. That flushed the cheeks of Zebo and made life difficult for the man that wanted him but wanted him to be complete before taking him.

Zebo has something but even now I still think he needs some coach (Provincial) to guide the journey better. Funnily enough, I'd love a season of Zebo with no smiles. I always make fun of the 'knowing frown' guys (Kearney, Murray etc) but Zebo is the opposite. I'd like to see a mean and intense Zebo for a season or two.

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Post by Sin é Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:55 am

For the last year, Zebo has only played at fullback for Ireland so its not surprising he isn't one of the 10 top wingers in the 6Ns. Very Happy

Joe has decided that Zeebs is a fullback.
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Post by SecretFly Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:00 am

What has Zeebs decided?

You can still do a lot of fancy stuff at 15, sin. It can be quite a meaty place to be with dancing toes. Wink

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Post by rodders Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:05 am

Sin é wrote:
Joe has decided that Zeebs is a fullback.

That's just to keep him a distance away from Murray, we don't want any of those incidents like on the Lions tour so best keep him away from the blindside wing position.
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Post by the-goon Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:09 am

eirebilly wrote:
the-goon wrote:

Read: I've been praying for poor results so I can stick the boot in Schmidt.


Oh dear... picard

If you believe we are in the midst of a clear decline, do you expect us to lose 3 nil in SA and then do worse than 3rd place in the 6N next year?

How long has this decline been going on for?

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Post by Sin é Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:11 am

lostinwales wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Zebo was not brought down a level - he was told to join in.  
Do - your - bit, so that all players can motor through an 80 minutes.  

Zebo for a period found that the ask was too much.  Joining in and also keeping an eye on an opening was proving too big an ask.  His mind resisted.  And that fact hit not just him but others who believed they had what it took to score the eye-candy tries.

I've kept saying all along that the brand of rugby played is determined by the engine you have to play it.  And I kept getting told by many here that all our boys were right up there, that they had plenty flash in their pants that could last a full 80 minutes of high tempo International rugby.  
Only the opposite was proved time and time again.  The juice for the beautiful rugby wasn't there.  I HOPE it's now going to become much more of a focus and seems to be from looking at Connacht and Ulster play.  But to date, the Irish team have found it difficult to master the game people want because they've often simply been burned by much fitter players who could absorb the hits and keep the energy in attack.

Re: Zebo - do you believe its because he just doesn't have it in him or has he just failed to (be) develop(ed)?

He has knuckled down to Schmidt's regime and unlike other fringe players (Gilroy, Healy, Marmion, Jackson) seems to be trusted. Its tough on him that Schmidt never gave him a chance to play on the wing so it must be challenging for him to learn his job as a fullback at international level (and people don't know he is a novice in that position).

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