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Australia v England, 18 June

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Post by George Carlin on Mon 13 Jun 2016, 11:07 am

First topic message reminder :

Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 3 Austra10      Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 3 Englan10
AUSTRALIA v ENGLAND
18 June 2016
20:00 AEST (UTC+10)
AAMI Park, Melbourne

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

45 Played 45
25 Won 19
1 Drawn 1
19 Lost 25
968 Points 713

B. Recent Form

11 June 2016 - Suncorp, Brisbane: Australia 28–39 England

3 October 2015 - Twickenham, London: 13 – 33 to Australia

29 November 2014 - Twickenham, London: 26 – 17 to England

2 November 2013 - Twickenham, London: 20 – 13 to England

17 November 2012 - Twickenham, London: 14 – 20 to Australia

13 November 2010 - Twickenham, London: 35 – 18 to England

19 June 2010 - Telstra Stadium, Sydney: 20 – 21 to England

12 June 2010 - Subiaco Oval, Perth: 27 – 17 to Australia

C. Teams

AUSTRALIA 
Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 3 Roos10
Israel Folau; Dane Haylett-Petty, Tevita Kuridrani, Samu Kerevi, Rob Horne; Bernard Foley, Nick Phipps; James Slipper, Stephen Moore (capt), Sekope Kepu, Rory Arnold, Sam Carter, Scott Fardy, Michael Hooper, Sean McMahon.

Replacements (three to be omitted): Tatafu Polota-Nau, Toby Smith, Greg Holmes, James Horwill, Dean Mumm, Wycliff Palu, Ben McCalman, Liam Gill, Nick Frisby, Christian Leali'ifano, Luke Morahan

ENGLAND
Australia v England, 18 June  - Page 3 Lion10


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Post by bluestonevedder on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:28 am

George Carlin wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:Interesting read http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/scrum-analysis-brisbane-test/

Apparently Sio is immune from any blame whatsoever

What a complete joke of an article.

Sio spend half the game with his face planted in the turf as he was unable to make the scrummage a contest. Cole has obviously schooled him in the dark arts!
This is the worst paragraph:

Poite has been put in a corner – he can’t keep having the scrum collapse or someone’s going to have to pay. He’s clearly hovering over who to blame though – it’s been one penalty apiece. So he re-sets.
Er, alternatively he chose a re-set because that's the thing to do if the scrums are settling and he wants to look at who's doing what.

Which is what 99% of other refs do.

If that piece shows anything, it's that Australia did not adapt to their referee or their opposition. Whose fault is that?

You're right- they didn't adapt at all. Cole made the effort to change the way he was scrummaging and Poite probably picked up on that. It's experience at the end of the day.

How on earth do England fans get labelled as whiners when there's this sort of sewage journalism floating around the internet? Blows my mind.

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Post by englandglory4ever on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:29 am

There is absolutely no way on earth that Cole could hold up the scrum with an 18 stone player at full stretch binding onto him. It just goes against the laws of physics. Cole had his feet planted perfectly. Sio's feet were down south somewhere. He had only one way to go and that was on his face which he continually did.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:37 am

Sio was hammered by Cole - which is why they have dropped him. Aus just need to grow up a bit.
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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:40 am

Interestingly Jonathan Kaplan's analysis on Monday described Cole as world class and stated the problems were entirely due to Sio, with Cole unlucky to be penalised in the first half. He also stated that as usual before a game he would be chatting about things with his good friend Joubert.

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Post by Jimpy on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:40 am

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Sio was hammered by Cole - which is why they have dropped him. Aus just need to grow up a bit.

Just like Marler

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36534662

And it looks like Ford will start at 10 on Saturday.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36536016

Presumably, Farrell will retain kicking duties.

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Post by SimonofSurrey on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 11:54 am

If you genuinely believe your props have been cheated by dodgy oppo tactics, you complain like hell with clear evidence, preferably through the mouthpiece of some former coach, then keep faith with your props for the next Test to demonstrate you rate them in a fair contest.

If, however, you recognise your props have been taken to the cleaners by better scrummagers, you make radical changes, for example drop one to the bench and omit the other from your match day 23 altogether. Australia have dropped one of last week's starting props to the bench (Holmes) and omitted the other (Sio) from their match day 23 altogether.

Go figure.

(PS: Joe Marler has just demonstrated the important difference between thinking something with which many people would agree, and saying it publicly in the wrong way at the wrong time).

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:05 pm

SimonofSurrey wrote:If you genuinely believe your props have been cheated by dodgy oppo tactics, you complain like hell with clear evidence, preferably through the mouthpiece of some former coach, then keep faith with your props for the next Test to demonstrate you rate them in a fair contest.

If, however, you recognise your props have been taken to the cleaners by better scrummagers, you make radical changes, for example drop one to the bench and omit the other from your match day 23 altogether. Australia have dropped one of last week's starting props to the bench (Holmes) and omitted the other (Sio) from their match day 23 altogether.

Go figure.

(PS: Joe Marler has just demonstrated the important difference between thinking something with which many people would agree, and saying it publicly in the wrong way at the wrong time).      

Crazy about Marler. After all I thought w*anker was a term of endearment in Australia.

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Post by Scottrf on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:07 pm

It was poor technique from Sio. I'd concede Cole maybe didn't give him enough to push against, but his thighs were almost horizontal, so vulnerable to anything but a strong push.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:17 pm

Scottrf wrote:It was poor technique from Sio. I'd concede Cole maybe didn't give him enough to push against, but his thighs were almost horizontal, so vulnerable to anything but a strong push.
Correct. Any competent prop (and Cole better than that) would have identified his vulnerability, eased off a bit and put him to ground. The odd thing is that he did not learn.

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Post by TightHEAD on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:23 pm

Is Joe Marler wrong calling Dwyer a Meat trombone soloist

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36534662
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Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:36 pm

Sio spent the entire first half angling in and down. When forced to scrum properly he went backwards. He then wheeled and got sin binned. Dan Cole is showing some form now it's not the same Dan Cole that looked tired in the RWC.

The Aussies looked concerned about the English physicality before the game started and that hasn't changed. They've kept the big centres for this weekend which is a surprise given that they didn't really stamp any authority on the game.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 12:49 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sio spent the entire first half angling in and down. When forced to scrum properly he went backwards. He then wheeled and got sin binned. Dan Cole is showing some form now it's not the same Dan Cole that looked tired in the RWC.

The Aussies looked concerned about the English physicality before the game started and that hasn't changed. They've kept the big centres for this weekend which is a surprise given that they didn't really stamp any authority on the game.

Their centres didn't do much damage at all, other than Kuridrani's try. Joseph really impressed me on Saturday actually. His defence for a small-ish guy is excellent.

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Post by propdavid_london on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 1:18 pm

Australia: 15 Israel Folau, 14 Dane Haylett-Petty, 13 Tevita Kuridrani, 12 Samu Kerevi, 11 Rob Horne, 10 Bernard Foley, 9 Nick Phipps, 1 James Slipper, 2 Stephen Moore (c), 3 Sekope Kepu, 4 Rory Arnold, 5 Sam Carter, 6 Scott Fardy, 7 Michael Hooper, 8 Sean McMahon.

Replacements (from): Tatafu Polota-Nau, Toby Smith, Greg Holmes, James Horwill, Dean Mumm, Wycliff Palu, Ben McCalman, Liam Gill, Nick Frisby, Christian Lealiifano, Luke Morahan.

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Post by George Carlin on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 1:33 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Australia: 15 Israel Folau, 14 Dane Haylett-Petty, 13 Tevita Kuridrani, 12 Samu Kerevi, 11 Rob Horne, 10 Bernard Foley, 9 Nick Phipps, 1 James Slipper, 2 Stephen Moore (c), 3 Sekope Kepu, 4 Rory Arnold, 5 Sam Carter, 6 Scott Fardy, 7 Michael Hooper, 8 Sean McMahon.

Replacements (from): Tatafu Polota-Nau, Toby Smith, Greg Holmes, James Horwill, Dean Mumm, Wycliff Palu, Ben McCalman, Liam Gill, Nick Frisby, Christian Lealiifano, Luke Morahan.
Sio dropped. Which, of course, is exactly what you do when your starter prop from last week was robbed by rubbish refereeing and categorically nothing else... Whistle

Not starting Lealiifano at 12 surely has to be a mistake.


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Post by lostinwales on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 1:34 pm

George Carlin wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Australia: 15 Israel Folau, 14 Dane Haylett-Petty, 13 Tevita Kuridrani, 12 Samu Kerevi, 11 Rob Horne, 10 Bernard Foley, 9 Nick Phipps, 1 James Slipper, 2 Stephen Moore (c), 3 Sekope Kepu, 4 Rory Arnold, 5 Sam Carter, 6 Scott Fardy, 7 Michael Hooper, 8 Sean McMahon.

Replacements (from): Tatafu Polota-Nau, Toby Smith, Greg Holmes, James Horwill, Dean Mumm, Wycliff Palu, Ben McCalman, Liam Gill, Nick Frisby, Christian Lealiifano, Luke Morahan.
Sio dropped. Which, of course, is exactly what you do when your starter prop from last week was robbed by rubbish refereeing and categorically nothing else... Whistle

All good stuff but we covered all this this morning Very Happy

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Post by little_badger on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 1:43 pm

George Carlin wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Australia: 15 Israel Folau, 14 Dane Haylett-Petty, 13 Tevita Kuridrani, 12 Samu Kerevi, 11 Rob Horne, 10 Bernard Foley, 9 Nick Phipps, 1 James Slipper, 2 Stephen Moore (c), 3 Sekope Kepu, 4 Rory Arnold, 5 Sam Carter, 6 Scott Fardy, 7 Michael Hooper, 8 Sean McMahon.

Replacements (from): Tatafu Polota-Nau, Toby Smith, Greg Holmes, James Horwill, Dean Mumm, Wycliff Palu, Ben McCalman, Liam Gill, Nick Frisby, Christian Lealiifano, Luke Morahan.
Sio dropped. Which, of course, is exactly what you do when your starter prop from last week was robbed by rubbish refereeing and categorically nothing else... Whistle

Not starting Lealiifano at 12 surely has to be a mistake.

Agreed. But I am happy about it!

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 1:52 pm

lostinwales wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Australia: 15 Israel Folau, 14 Dane Haylett-Petty, 13 Tevita Kuridrani, 12 Samu Kerevi, 11 Rob Horne, 10 Bernard Foley, 9 Nick Phipps, 1 James Slipper, 2 Stephen Moore (c), 3 Sekope Kepu, 4 Rory Arnold, 5 Sam Carter, 6 Scott Fardy, 7 Michael Hooper, 8 Sean McMahon.

Replacements (from): Tatafu Polota-Nau, Toby Smith, Greg Holmes, James Horwill, Dean Mumm, Wycliff Palu, Ben McCalman, Liam Gill, Nick Frisby, Christian Lealiifano, Luke Morahan.
Sio dropped. Which, of course, is exactly what you do when your starter prop from last week was robbed by rubbish refereeing and categorically nothing else... Whistle

All good stuff but we covered all this this morning Very Happy

Did we cover Sam Carter leapfrogging Horwill and Mumm to replace Simmons?

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 2:15 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:Australia: 15 Israel Folau, 14 Dane Haylett-Petty, 13 Tevita Kuridrani, 12 Samu Kerevi, 11 Rob Horne, 10 Bernard Foley, 9 Nick Phipps, 1 James Slipper, 2 Stephen Moore (c), 3 Sekope Kepu, 4 Rory Arnold, 5 Sam Carter, 6 Scott Fardy, 7 Michael Hooper, 8 Sean McMahon.

Replacements (from): Tatafu Polota-Nau, Toby Smith, Greg Holmes, James Horwill, Dean Mumm, Wycliff Palu, Ben McCalman, Liam Gill, Nick Frisby, Christian Lealiifano, Luke Morahan.
Sio dropped. Which, of course, is exactly what you do when your starter prop from last week was robbed by rubbish refereeing and categorically nothing else... Whistle

All good stuff but we covered all this this morning Very Happy

Did we cover Sam Carter leapfrogging Horwill and Mumm to replace Simmons?

Nope Smile

With a more lightweight pack I look forward to them dealing with a rampaging Billy all
game. They should be able to but its gonna hurt.

BTW another observation from last Saturday that comes to mind.

We were beaten out wide (and hopefully changing the personnel will help to fix that) but what we did do was at least force most of the tries that were scored against us out to the corner. Given Foley's off day with the boot it meant that at least they were 5pts not 7.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 2:53 pm

I hope that Watson has watched how Yarde made sure that there was never space on the outside, as for both Hooper's tries he came inside to make the tackle, leaving Hooper free.

However it is perhaps a mistake to assume we were losing it out wide. The tries in the first half both arose due to Folau slicing through the midfield, then we had Foley (with a slight bit of blocking) doing the same and rounding Brown with ease. While the midfield defence will be better organised this weekend, I am sure we will see them trying to slice through us there again, before spinning the ball wide.


Overall we need to improve - as Australia surely will.

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 9:53 pm

The Aussie centre partnership didn't really get much of a chance last week with Horne going off early and their 6/2 bench forcing them into a reshuffle. It is hard to quantify just how disrupting what was.

I hope England go with Ford, Farrell and Slade in the 10, 12 and 21 shirts and say for now we're going to stick with two playmakers. Looks like the right option for now and we need to therefore develop some depth.

I still think Burrell, Te'o and even Tuilagi should go back to their clubs and work tirelessly on their distribution. We're currently playing a physical distributor, as opposed to a bosher who can't distribute, but I think a bosher who could distribute would be the best option, so our 12s should be aiming to be Nonu (even if they never quite hit that level).

In the pack, id bring George and Clifford into the bench for Cowan-Dickie and Lawes. I would be scared about going 6/2 unless we used Daly and a scrum half, but I think having Nowell and Slade would offer us good game changing options in the backs.

The whole Aussie scrum thing gets my goat, I hate Bob Dwyer and, although I don't think it's an organised campaign, I hate how they all come out the woodwork everytime. Guess it shows were doing something right, but agree with Marler 100%.

Corbisiero's analysis was fair. Cole diminished his angle a bit, and will have to make sure he's legal as the scrutiny will be on him. But Sio was at fault, his feet were far too far back to scrummage and it was only going one way. I'm sure Cole in this form won't lose any sleep about Slipper.

I think England will go into this match with their confidence sky high, much higher than some of us on here! Australia will either need to bury England early (with their backs flowing and their kicks on point to build an unassailable lead) or play a more complete game, because England will keep coming and won't worry about being more than a score behind if there's still time to play.

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Post by doctor_grey on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 2:24 am

LondonTiger wrote:I hope that Watson has watched how Yarde made sure that there was never space on the outside, as for both Hooper's tries he came inside to make the tackle, leaving Hooper free.

However it is perhaps a mistake to assume we were losing it out wide. The tries in the first half both arose due to Folau slicing through the midfield, then we had Foley (with a slight bit of blocking) doing the same and rounding Brown with ease. While the midfield defence will be better organised this weekend, I am sure we will see them trying to slice through us there again, before spinning the ball wide.


Overall we need to improve - as Australia surely will.
I agree, mate. Folau found a few gaps and made great runs to get through them. I doubt Folau can normally be completely contained, but I thought the defense was ragged out wide and we didn't react fast enough. I expect in this match they will redouble their efforts to go wide and also kick to our back three. A lot. Brown will be fine under the kicks, but Watson and Yarde don't inspire the same confidence, either under the kicks or defensively in general. I certainly would prefer to see Nowell start. I think this is the match to play our best defenders in the backs and let the forwards take advantage of the absence of Pocock. In addition, England need to keep possession longer and be more patient.

On the Foley non-try, I really did think the pulling guard (sorry, NFL term for a lead blocker moving across the pitch) did seal off our defender to create the space. On the other hand, I thought our defence was already sagging back which also allowed the gaps to develop.

Do you Burrell is done with England (or rather England are finished with him)? I think Eddie made the right decision in that match. It was a surprise for me because Burrell has never seemed that out of sorts defensively, either at Saints or during his previous opportunities with England.

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Post by dgttaylor on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 4:54 am

Admittedly England looked a bit ragged out wide defensively but the quality of execution for Hooper's second try cannot be ignored, particularly the ball from Foley which hit Folau (running a great line) perfectly in respect of timing. I think it was one of the Vunipiola's who Folau was floating outside so I imagine Watson made the decision to step in as it was unlikely Folau would be tackled by the inside man. There is an argument that Watson stays wide with Hooper, leaving the cover defence (Robshaw) to try and get to Folau but think that's a 50/50 call in the heat of the moment. Watson got his timing wrong and Folau had the hands to execute the final ball. Not many flankers could have finished that try from there so credit where it is due, a bloody good try from the Australians.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:06 am

The team:

15. Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 50 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 22 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 23 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 41 caps)
11. Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 16 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 24 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 59 caps)

1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 33 caps)
2. Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 73 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 63 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 5 caps)
5. George Kruis (Saracens, 16 caps)
6. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 49 caps)
7. James Haskell (Wasps, 69 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens, 27 caps)

Replacements

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 6 caps)
17. Matt Mullan (Wasps 11 caps)
18. Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 3 caps)
19. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 33 caps)
20. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 47 caps)
21. Jack Clifford (Harlequins, 6 caps)
22. Danny Care (Harlequins, 60 caps)
23. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 3 caps)

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Post by little_badger on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:09 am

I am very happy about Nowell!

I would like to see Slade on the bench with Lawes dropping out but apart from that I think that is our best team at the moment.

Mike Brown needs a big game.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:11 am

Wonder if Nowell and Yarde were told they would be given a game each

Hopefully we don't have backs injuries, although Daly and Nowell pretty much cover 11-15 between them

Glad to see George on the bench ahead of LCD, I had that heart in mouth moment at both lineouts and would feel slightly better seeing George there

Why we need Lawes/Launchbury and Clifford on the bench is a mystery, unless he's planning on trialling a Itoje/Clifford/Billy back row at some point, which could be very interesting

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:12 am

Bit if of a risk with a 6/2 bench split unless the plan is to use Clifford out there in an emergency.

Some of the changes will likely be welcome on this board: Nowell starting because he's a better defender, George on the bench to back up Hartley, and Clifford offering a different skill set for the breakdown.

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Post by beshocked on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:12 am

Good team. OK For once I can't really complain.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:13 am

6-2 bench indicates exactly where Jones believes the game will be fought.

Got to say I am more worried about this game now, than I was before team selection, as really worried that we have little option to change things in the backs and could look very lightweight if Farrell departs early.

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Post by dgttaylor on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:13 am

6/2 bench is very interesting and Nowell for Yarde.

I wonder what is going on in Eddie's mind to warrant these two changes?

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Post by TightHEAD on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:18 am

Very happy with that team. In Eddie we trust.
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Post by lostinwales on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:20 am

little_badger wrote:I am very happy about Nowell!

I would like to see Slade on the bench with Lawes dropping out but apart from that I think that is our best team at the moment.

Mike Brown needs a big game.

There is a lot of thinking that Brown mostly had a good game last week. But he is the current hate figure, Robshaw having outlasted the process and Joe Marler having decided to have the summer off. NVM...

6-2 split is interesting, but then Daly does cover most of the back division so there is cover. Tough on Yarde who was pretty solid last week but we all know why Nowell is back. I think more and more that (especially given the bust leg) Slade is there just for injury cover and for experience. I do hope he gets a chance but it won't be this tour unless Ford or Farrell get hurt.

Bet the Australians will continue with flankers on the wing. If we keep on slowing their ball we can outnumber and out-muscle their pack at the breakdown.

Billy's chance for a huge game. Clifford to have a brilliant little cameo at the end. Probably the best 'anti-Hooper' we have available. Hope the cameo is in the back row not at center....

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Post by bedfordwelsh on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:22 am

dgttaylor wrote:6/2 bench is very interesting and Nowell for Yarde.

I wonder what is going on in Eddie's mind to warrant these two changes?

Jones is still experimenting, he always said his team would evolve over the next 18 months. If England win the series this weekend then I reckon he'll tinker a bit more next week.

If you lose and the series goes down to next weekend then I reckon you'll see somewhere near to what he thinks is his best 23 so far.
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Post by doctor_grey on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:23 am

LondonTiger wrote:6-2 bench indicates exactly where Jones believes the game will be fought.

Got to say I am more worried about this game now, than I was before team selection, as really worried that we have little option to change things in the backs and could look very lightweight if Farrell departs early.
Just had the same thought and are still nursing my first coffee of the morning.

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Post by propdavid_london on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:24 am

BamBam wrote: unless he's planning on trialling a Itoje/Clifford/Billy back row at some point, which could be very interesting
Billy didn't finish the game last week did he? We had Robshaw stepping back to no.8.....
So, Robshaw and Billy come off - Itoje steps back to 6 and Clifford to No.8 - Launchbury goes to 2nd row then with 10mins left bring on Lawes for Kruis to add a bit of fresh legs.


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Post by beshocked on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:26 am

There's less risk though if Hartley or Billy go off early though because George/Clifford in my opinion are better replacements than we had last week IMO.

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Post by dgttaylor on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:29 am

doctor_grey wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:6-2 bench indicates exactly where Jones believes the game will be fought.

Got to say I am more worried about this game now, than I was before team selection, as really worried that we have little option to change things in the backs and could look very lightweight if Farrell departs early.
Just had the same thought and are still nursing my first coffee of the morning.  

Daly had been running at 12 in some of 6 nations training sessions but that's a very different prospect to Australia, in Melbourne, with Kerevi and Kuridrani coming down your channel.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:33 am

beshocked wrote:There's less risk though if Hartley or Billy go off early though because George/Clifford in my opinion are better replacements than we had last week IMO.

Both of those could have been achieved without a 6-2 split. George, who was not deemed fit enough last week, would still replace LCD and Clifford could have replaced Lawes



As to whoever said Brown has become the latest "hate figure" for England fans, not sure I agree. Fans are defending him, pundits and journos not. I have long been a a Mike Brown advocate - but Saturday he was not mostly good, he was mostly poor. I suspect much is due to tiredness - but he was leaden footed in defence, jogged from place to place off the ball, leaving his wingers isolated, never got out of third gear in attack and yet again always looked for first contact. Not sure he has had a worse performance for England since the 2008 (?) tour that Rob Andrew led.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:35 am

And Daly can certainly be targeted in defence. I'd have preferred Te'o but I suppose Daly can cover the back 3 to some extent.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:37 am

Apparently Daly has spent a lot of time at FB in training sessions.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:44 am

I was nervous when they dropped Sio (as he would have lost Aus the game), but after hearing Cheika crying over those naughty burly English types pushing the poor little Aus players a bit I’m feeling much better. They certainly don’t like it up ‘em.
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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:45 am

LondonTiger wrote:Apparently Daly has spent a lot of time at FB in training sessions.

I still think this could be his best position tbh. He's got a great boot and electric pace, he could cause some serious damage on the counter.

His defence at 13 has always worried me, he gets run over far too often despite have a good covering game due to his pace.

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Post by beshocked on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:48 am

Londontiger yes you are right but It's the English forwards that Jones is pinning his hopes on and rightfully.

Quite simplistic but I see it as England forwards vs Aussie backs as I think that's where each team's strengths are.

I personally think our forwards are better than our backs so I think it's preferable to have more forwards on the bench.

It's a risk of course but the strategy is quite clearly to overpower the Aussies over 80 minutes.

Even the Aussie backs as good as they are will find it much harder without a decent platform.

Biggest risk is an injury to Farrell but if he stays fit and knocks over the kicks could well be another England win.

I agree Londontiger. As for Brown, he's got a lot of credit in the bank, he's been a generally consistent FB for England but he didn't have a good 6 nations IMO, I thought he was poor vs Australia in the RWC and has been struggling for form this season. Doesn't make him a hate figure.

Just there are rightfully some who think maybe alternate options should be tried out. Either Goode whose been in particularly good form this season though he has to prove himself at international to answer the doubters or Watson who some see as the long term option at 15.

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Post by dgttaylor on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:51 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Apparently Daly has spent a lot of time at FB in training sessions.

I still think this could be his best position tbh. He's got a great boot and electric pace, he could cause some serious damage on the counter.

His defence at 13 has always worried me, he gets run over far too often despite have a good covering game due to his pace.

JJ a better defender certainly as is Nowell, think they would keep Daly at FB or on the wing in the event of him coming on. Or at 12 he might have a bit of protection either side and a covering openside.

Nowell to 12 wouldn't be the end of the world, strong on his feet, Daly to the wing, if Farrell is injured.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 10:56 am

If Daly did make it on, I wonder what range of kick would see him given a go ahead of Farrell. Farrell is not the kind of player to turn down a challenge, so I wonder if Jones has already made that call for the team, or whether it'll be up to the captain to choose during the game.

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Post by beshocked on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 11:01 am

If Farrell goes off, I would be a bit worried about the goalkicking. Would be too much to ask Daly to become the goal kicker in such an important game so early in his international career IMO. Though saying that England do need to develop more than one kicker as can't rely on one player to shoulder the burden.

Other sides like Wales and Scotland put too much emphasis on building a backline to fit in a goal kicker like Paterson and Halfpenny.

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 11:02 am

Rugby Fan wrote:If Daly did make it on, I wonder what range of kick would see him given a go ahead of Farrell. Farrell is not the kind of player to turn down a challenge, so I wonder if Jones has already made that call for the team, or whether it'll be up to the captain to choose during the game.

I'd bet he'd only take a kick if it was a total gamble at very long range or if Farrell is injured. If Farrell is injured they'll probably go to Ford 1st. In other words it is not going to happen.

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Post by little_badger on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 11:07 am

lostinwales wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:If Daly did make it on, I wonder what range of kick would see him given a go ahead of Farrell. Farrell is not the kind of player to turn down a challenge, so I wonder if Jones has already made that call for the team, or whether it'll be up to the captain to choose during the game.

I'd bet he'd only take a kick if it was a total gamble at very long range or if Farrell is injured. If Farrell is injured they'll probably go to Ford 1st. In other words it is not going to happen.

If Farrell goes off, Ford to take the majority and Daly to take ones which are say 40m plus I would imagine.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 11:09 am

I don't think Daly is coming on at Centre unless there's an injury and as stated above do prefer the idea of Nowell moving to 12 in that scenario.

Our gameplan seems pretty obvious, smash them up front, Slipper up against Cole looks like a massive mismatch to me so don't think his inclusion will make an ounce of difference if Joubert calls it right.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 11:11 am

If Daly comes on and Farrell still there, Daly to take any kicks from half way line and further. If Farrell off then you can move that line up about 5m so halfway between the 10m line and halfway.

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Post by boomeranga on Thu 16 Jun 2016, 11:26 am

Barney McGrew did it wrote:I was nervous when they dropped Sio (as he would have lost Aus the game), but after hearing Cheika crying over those naughty burly English types pushing the poor little Aus players a bit I’m feeling much better. They certainly don’t like it up ‘em.

I've seen the Dwyer comments that have upset everyone so, but nothing from Cheika. What did he say?  

I can't imagine him 'crying' over a team being physical.  He was a dirty bugga himself and everything about him loves that side of it.  Everyone else complained about the Waratahs when he was coach and that was never an issue for us before he arrived.  The opposite was generally the case. He tends to move his teams towards that end of the scale.

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