The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

First topic message reminder :

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I may have missed it on this thread but what are peoples thoughts on TTIP? Personally I think TTIP would be a a disaster for the EU, but can we fight it off?

Broadly negative but largely irrelevant as the UK would sign up to it in a flash with or without the EU.

Of course it's negative. It's a warning against TTIP and from a Nobel Prize winning economist. Strange that some here complain about the a lack of attention to 'financial experts' yet seem to brush aside the warnings of one on the worlds leading economists.

You say the UK will accept it in a flash, even if Brexit win. Why? I know Cameron will be quick to sell the UK to the highest bidder, but there are plenty of voices against TTIP, including the leader of the opposition. It would also be very doubtful that Cameron will be in power if Brexit do win.

I haven't got around to reading all the comments in reply to the TTIP article, very busy, but will once I get a break.

Ent wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Turnout % of each age group in the #EURefResults:

18-24: 36%; 25-34: 58%; 35-44: 72%; 45-54: 75%; 55-64: 81%; 65+: 83%

via @SkyData

It's the turnout wot won it.

Most young people are warped by the media and are always going out of their way to do what they determine is "always right." I just don't understand the media's demonisation of certain people (Farage, Trump, recently Boris), unless it's Kanye West course. The older generation have been around a lot longer and have been humped in the rear by all and sundry, I'll listen to them over mouthy, rich-people wannabe's any day.

Yes - kids today - they're all mouthy rich-people wannabes. Warped by the media, unable to think for themselves etc. etc.
Dear oh dear, your statement says a lot more about you than it does about them.

Says the one dismissing all Leave voters as racist, xenophobic, bigoted, uneducated, etc. Talk about hypocrite, but I guess that sums up the loser campaign .

Quote one post of mine that remotely did that mikey - or making such childish comments.

I was referring to your Loser team Jules, you know the embarrassing Leave brigade who are continuing to embarrass themselves and their country after the referendum. You're one of them. But since you're being selective, you referred to 18-24 year olds as kids. You do know that the legal adult age for most purposes, in this instance voting in the UK is 18 right? Jeez... 
I was referring to the tree-huggers flooding social media every day. All of them mouthy, rich-people wannabe's having tantrums when people disagree with them. Now that's bigoted. Your statement "says more about you than them" is very hypocritical coming from a Leaver.

What makes you say they are 'my team' mikey? Is it not possible to simply discuss my own posts directly with me? Which of my posts do you think has embarrassed myself? Perhaps quote it and we can discuss further.
'Kids' - as I'm sure you are aware, was just an expression. It does not define a particular age group. I refer to anyone in roughly the next generation to myself (anyone under 30, say) as kids.

Are you or are you not in team Remain? And yes we can refer to them as team Remain despite them not being a football team. I'm sure I could discuss your posts directly with you, no problem. However I do think a lot of it would be us going around in circles, like this article. 

I suggest you stop referring to anyone under 30 as kids. Me personally, I would find that highly offensive. Do you have any idea how hard us 'kids' have to work these days just to be able to get career stability and afford to live? 

Also I've skimmed over the posts a few times and I mistook you for Hero. Your posts seem very similar post-Brexit. I know you're deeply offended by this mistake, so I apologise .

Going to be harder now isn't it?

Not for everyone, actually, no. For many of the working class in the manufacturing industry, this actually presents a glimmer of hope. An example would be Ballymena in NI which has been hit very hard over the past few years due to increased pressure imposed by EU policies which has driven costs through the roof. Wrightbus (who provide the London Buses) is currently struggling and the likes of Boris Johnson have hugely helped the development of the company which employs over 2000 people. This could provide them with the opportunities to sell more within the UK, their main customer. Sadiq Khan has already made it clear in his manifesto that he wishes to cease purchasing from Wrightbus and look abroad.

One of the main reasons the manufacturing industry has been hit so hard would be the environmental policies imposed by EU, which have made it very expensive to setup and maintain factories. This has also led to wage slavery as these companies simply cannot afford to pay their workers a decent wage. Incidentally, many companies are very interested in remaining within the EU as many immigrants will come to work for the cheapest wages, the morals of which haven't actually been mentioned much.

These same politicians who have agreed to these policies then buy from countries who do not follow the same policies (such as China) and can provide much cheaper products which are environmentally friendly. China, for example, open coal mines every couple of weeks it seems and then sell environmental friendly products to the suckers in our government. This hypocrisy should be considered morally reprehensible.

Leaving the EU does not solve this by itself of course but it does provide national sovereignty and the potential to have our own policies that do not need to be authorised by a foreign county.

Most young people are warped by the media and are always going out of their way to do what they determine is "always right." I just don't understand the media's demonisation of certain people (Farage, Trump, recently Boris), unless it's Kanye West course. The older generation have been around a lot longer and have been humped in the rear by all and sundry, I'll listen to them over mouthy, rich-people wannabe's any day.

Young people today have been born into a complex information heavy world. In my experience a lot of them are rightly very cynical of mainstream media. I actually think that there is more of a problem with a lot of older people who were brought up in simpler less cynical times buying into the messages pushed by the likes of the Mail and Express.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Not for everyone, actually, no. For many of the working class in the manufacturing industry, this actually presents a glimmer of hope. An example would be Ballymena in NI which has been hit very hard over the past few years due to increased pressure imposed by EU policies which has driven costs through the roof. Wrightbus (who provide the London Buses) is currently struggling and the likes of Boris Johnson have hugely helped the development of the company which employs over 2000 people. This could provide them with the opportunities to sell more within the UK, their main customer. Sadiq Khan has already made it clear in his manifesto that he wishes to cease purchasing from Wrightbus and look abroad.

One of the main reasons the manufacturing industry has been hit so hard would be the environmental policies imposed by EU, which have made it very expensive to setup and maintain factories. This has also led to wage slavery as these companies simply cannot afford to pay their workers a decent wage. Incidentally, many companies are very interested in remaining within the EU as many immigrants will come to work for the cheapest wages, the morals of which haven't actually been mentioned much.

These same politicians who have agreed to these policies then buy from countries who do not follow the same policies (such as China) and can provide much cheaper products which are environmentally friendly. China, for example, open coal mines every couple of weeks it seems and then sell environmental friendly products to the suckers in our government. This hypocrisy should be considered morally reprehensible.

Leaving the EU does not solve this by itself of course but it does provide national sovereignty and the potential to have our own policies that do not need to be authorised by a foreign county.

China is an issue. Global trade is a double edged sword, no doubt, and long term it would be great to find ways to make it more economical to build stuff we need next door rather than the other side of the world and ship it over. But I wouldn't mind asking, for instance, why do you think we might actually need environmental regulations and what working and environmental conditions might be like if we didn't have them?

lostinwales wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Why is it acceptable to insinuate that the vast majority of leave voters or British patriots are racist...

It isn't. I haven't. If you think I have, please quote the post, so I can clarify what I meant.

Nor have I claimed that you have, although many of those on the Remain side unfortunately seem very keen to label Leave voters as racists or any other derogatory term that they can think of.

I'd settle for saying that a lot of the leave voters are misguided and have no idea what they have actually voted for. Anyway - as long as the government got a good kicking eh?

The same could also be said for Remain voters, and certainly in my circles many of the people who voted remain did so because "they hadn't looked into it enough".

Oh yeah. The biggest idiots in all of this are the conservative government who agreed to the vote in the first place then didn't work hard enough to educate the voters of any actual facts, because I guess they assumed they'd win anyway, out of touch bunch of .....

At the same time all of the most popular newspapers are pumping out the same eurosceptic BS they have for years.

We did get an official looking document that appeared to cover the 'facts' of course, only they were false and it was from the leave campaign.. On the subject of which who gave Farage so much air time. Its not like he's elected. It's not like there is anyone to hold him responsible for talking BS for a couple of months. It's not like he's actually an expert on how the EU works either.

I voted remain because I didn't like the idea of the Boris Johnsons, or the Eton mob, (or quite frankly that old reactionary out of touch activist from the labour party) being in power without at least someone looking over their shoulder from time to time. But when I started actually looking at the info - which was hard to find - it seemed pretty clear that leaving was a stupid idea.

At the same time all of this really has helped to shine a light around some major f**king issues that are making life tough for a lot of people.  I get that, well I don't truly tbh but I am getting a glimpse of it. But I don't think leaving the EU are going to sort those issues. I don't think not being part of the decision making process in Europe is going to help. I don't think not having euro convergence funding for poor regions is going to help. I don't think missing out on EU farming subsidies are going to help. And I don't think having a more right wing government in power is going to help either.

Leaving the EU won't do any good if we do not elect an adequate government. Personally this is not how I would have liked to see us leave, but I am glad that we have left the EU which was leading us towards a slow and painful death. Now I would be happy to see the disillusioned Tories and Labour parties die as they should have done a long time ago and be replaced with parties that actually represent the people and engage in real political discussion.

Unfortunately, I acknowledge that is quite idealist and I don't quite see the solution just yet. I don't think the likes of Boris Johnson are the answer.

lostinwales wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Not for everyone, actually, no. For many of the working class in the manufacturing industry, this actually presents a glimmer of hope. An example would be Ballymena in NI which has been hit very hard over the past few years due to increased pressure imposed by EU policies which has driven costs through the roof. Wrightbus (who provide the London Buses) is currently struggling and the likes of Boris Johnson have hugely helped the development of the company which employs over 2000 people. This could provide them with the opportunities to sell more within the UK, their main customer. Sadiq Khan has already made it clear in his manifesto that he wishes to cease purchasing from Wrightbus and look abroad.

One of the main reasons the manufacturing industry has been hit so hard would be the environmental policies imposed by EU, which have made it very expensive to setup and maintain factories. This has also led to wage slavery as these companies simply cannot afford to pay their workers a decent wage. Incidentally, many companies are very interested in remaining within the EU as many immigrants will come to work for the cheapest wages, the morals of which haven't actually been mentioned much.

These same politicians who have agreed to these policies then buy from countries who do not follow the same policies (such as China) and can provide much cheaper products which are environmentally friendly. China, for example, open coal mines every couple of weeks it seems and then sell environmental friendly products to the suckers in our government. This hypocrisy should be considered morally reprehensible.

Leaving the EU does not solve this by itself of course but it does provide national sovereignty and the potential to have our own policies that do not need to be authorised by a foreign county.

China is an issue. Global trade is a double edged sword, no doubt, and long term it would be great to find ways to make it more economical to build stuff we need next door rather than the other side of the world and ship it over. But I wouldn't mind asking, for instance, why do you think we might actually need environmental regulations and what working and environmental conditions might be like if we didn't have them?

Well, it is to prevent climate change at the end of the day, isn't it? If it is the huge issue that mainstream science claims that it is (a subject in which I have little knowledge and will not try to claim otherwise) then they need to provide viable alternatives and show consistency. If the government do choose to impose regulations on local industries to help provide a cleaner environment and yet buy cheaper from global companies who do not abide by the same emission policies (and therefore can actually afford to do this) then this represents hypocrisy of the highest degree and mindless greed prevails at the expense of our local economy.

The manufacturing and steel industries in particular have been completely ruined by this, for the most part. Most of the big manufacturing industries in NI are dead or dying. The future is absolutely grim in this regard but voting to leave the EU and electing a government that actually cares about fixing this could provide some hope.

lostinwales wrote:

Most young people are warped by the media and are always going out of their way to do what they determine is "always right." I just don't understand the media's demonisation of certain people (Farage, Trump, recently Boris), unless it's Kanye West course. The older generation have been around a lot longer and have been humped in the rear by all and sundry, I'll listen to them over mouthy, rich-people wannabe's any day.

Young people today have been born into a complex information heavy world. In my experience a lot of them are rightly very cynical of mainstream media. I actually think that there is more of a problem with a lot of older people who were brought up in simpler less cynical times buying into the messages pushed by the likes of the Mail and Express.

They're cynical of media that doesn't agree with their views. The Independant (ironic) is their bible. 

Back to AJ fight. That was a good response to my post btw Jules

You're a more patient man than I, Jules, I must say, however blindingly obvious it is.

It concerns me to some extent that there are those who do seem entrenched on a team that are not critical of what seems to be backtracking on behalf of those they trust/trusted.

The young read the Guardian if they read a newspaper, but I don't really read the papers, my time studying journalism put me off more than ever before. The odd article online, but I will read the telegraph, the times or the guardian for their online sport, and those writers are quite different. I don't quite consider that 'reading the papers' as I'm not there for political articles or comment.

Munchkin wrote:

emancipator wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Hero wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Hero wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Some people love angry nativism.

Well Carswell said it before the referendum results were announced. He was clearing the ground, in the event of a Remain win, so that he could later launch another attack on Farage's leadership (whilst not having the moral courage to stand for leader himself).

And what happened? Oh yes, Leave won, thanks largely to Farage.

Because he appeals to xenophobes.

Name-calling and no counter-argument - the Remain campaign in a nutshell.

Who's come out and congratulated the Leave campaign since they won?

Le Pen and Trump. You can sugar coat it all you want, Leave won due to the following;

A protest against Cameron from the working class and uneducated that wasn't helped by the ineptitude of the Labour Party gathering support.
And those that blame foreigners for all their ills.

Just clarify for me - are you saying that one has to be working class or uneducated to "protest against David Cameron"? Also, do those who vote leave also fall within that category in your opinion? That or old age.

So far, many of those accusing Farage of xenophobia (I'm not a big fan but it is a ridiculous claim) are certainly showing vitriol towards other people groups of their choosing. There is a really distasteful phenomenon here where it is deemed acceptable to show extreme prejudice towards British people who have pride in their heritage and wish to reclaim their national sovereignty. They are branded as racists, far right elitists or any other names designed to silence their collective voices. Do folks really not see the irony here?

The working class, as well as the uneducated, which I sincerely hope you were not lumping together, also deserve a say in this, whether you agree with them or not. They are included in a democracy, after all.

I think it's fair to say that racists exists. And that far right elitists exist. And that many of those people also have pride their British heritage and wish to reclaim their national sovereignty. But they are still racists/far right elitists and we should fight against that with extreme prejudice.

There are also people who have pride their British heritage and wish to reclaim their national sovereignty who are neither racist not far right elitists. Which is fine, although I personally probably don't share much common ground with them politically.

Any racists would makw up a tiny proportion of the Brexit vote. They don't represent the vast majority. Get a grip and take the loss in good grace.

Did I ever suggest they made up more than a small proportion? I'm not sure why you feel you should twist what I am saying or put words in my mouth. I don't think the loss should be accepted meekly. Surely holding the Leave campaign to their promises is not a loss of grace.

I find your 'get a grip' statement to be patronising - can you point to a post of mine that indicates a lack of grace, as opposed to disappointment, fear over the future of the country, and a desire to keep standing up for what I believe to be right and best for the country?

No, you didn't, although I would suggest it is you trying to twist things by associating racists with the referendum result. It's bloody obvious what you're trying to do. The accusations of 'racists', 'xenophobes', have been prominent here before the result. It was, and is, pretty weak thinking.

Move on.

Sometimes people don't want to admit to what's bleedingly obvious.

Most of the older gen voted for Brexit out of a fear of immigration. That was the drum beaten loudest throughout the campaign. Farage and co knew that to win they had to play on those fears - and they did. To deny that he is a xenophobe is to deny reality; the 1930's poster said it all - that was really low and shows what a despicable character he is. Using the plight of vulnerable refugees fleeing death and destruction for political gain - total scumbag.

Yes, and it's bleedingly obvious you missed the point. Fear of immigration is not racism.

And where did I EQUATE the two?

Racism is a strong accusation and one I'm certainly not throwing around. However, there is/was an underlying xenophobic character to the leave campaign, knowingly so, it being their trump card (pun intended), and it won them the referendum. Of course that doesn't make everyone who voted to leave racist or xenophobic but there was a significant proportion, a majority I would wager, that voted based on a stoked fear of immigration and the rsulting xenophobia - the validity of the result of a referendum (at least ethically) based on such can be debated: the reality of the xenophobic element, however, cannot be denied.

Again you missed my point. I wasn't saying you did equate the two. My point being that some are attempting to paint the Leave campaign, and a certain section of the electorate, the elderly, as being racist/xenophobes.

Having said the above, and based on your latest reply, I can now say that you are implying that a vote for Leave was a vote for xenophobes. That is a crass generalisation based on little other than your own interpretation.
Your asserting the 'significant majority' are xenophobes, due to 'fear of immigration' is baseless. Concerns about immigration does not mean a fear of migrants. I would doubt any but a tiny minority are actually afraid of foreigners. That makes no sense in a multicultural society. Concerns about migration will far more likely be concerns about EU policy, not EU people.

Neither will you be able to support your assertion that the character of the Leave campaign was one of xenophobia. The underlying motivation of the Leave campaign was EU policy, and the failure of the British Government to negotiate EU reform.

You claim that 'the reality of the xenophobic element cannot be denied'. I am denying it, and challenge you to substantiate your assertion with facts.

Fears relating to immigration may be based on outcomes and situations like the cost/demand for housing, services, utilities, passage through airports, etc to claim its a reality of the xenophobic element is somewhat simplistic.

Munchkin wrote:Again you missed my point. I wasn't saying you did equate the two. My point being that some are attempting to paint the Leave campaign, and a certain section of the electorate, the elderly, as being racist/xenophobes.

Having said the above, and based on your latest reply, I can now say that you are implying that a vote for Leave was a vote for xenophobes. That is a crass generalisation based on little other than your own interpretation.
Your asserting the 'significant majority' are xenophobes, due to 'fear of immigration' is baseless. Concerns about immigration does not mean a fear of migrants. I would doubt any but a tiny minority are actually afraid of foreigners. That makes no sense in a multicultural society. Concerns about migration will far more likely be concerns about EU policy, not EU people.

Neither will you be able to support your assertion that the character of the Leave campaign was one of xenophobia. The underlying motivation of the Leave campaign was EU policy, and the failure of the British Government to negotiate EU reform.

You claim that 'the reality of the xenophobic element cannot be denied'. I am denying it, and challenge you to substantiate your assertion with facts.

I feel that's pretty much the case. Going back to the criticism being directed by some towards ''the older generation'' for voting OUT, it is again fair to flag that this country only remained IN as a result of that generation agreeing so in 1975. What they gave their agreement to forty years ago was very different then from now. That was essentially concerned with trade; hence EEC as it was and not EU. In the years that followed, the policy considerably widened with the British Government unable and/or unwilling to halt it.

The older generation may be criticised for how they have just voted but I believe they have been consistent and true to their wishes since 1975. If people had known how things would develop, I am sure the vote would have overwhelmingly been for OUT back then.

Saturday - our Moody's rating gets downgraded meaning our debt and budget deficit cost us more

Sunday - the French are going to stop controls against illegal immigrants at Calais meaning out border controls have taken a hit

Half the Labour shadow cabinet set to hand in their resignations today in protest of Corbyn's leadership during the Referendum.

HSBC to move 1000 jobs from London to Paris.

"In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it"

The words of Nigel Farage back in March.

Hero wrote:Half the Labour shadow cabinet set to hand in their resignations today in protest of Corbyn's leadership during the Referendum.

Good to have politicians with such integrity. Just a shame they didn't think to do it during the Referendum campaign.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwall-issues-plea-for-funding-protection-after-county-overwhelmingly-votes-in-favour-of-a7101311.html

Gutted for them.
Next stop the Welsh will realise they're actually now worse off without the EU handouts and farmer subsidies.

Talking up an early general election in the autumn too.

Given the disillusionment towards both side, a hung parliament would be a strong possibility.

Nothing less than they deserve the stupid b*stards, they've essentially stuck a dagger in their inflatable lifeboat. I feel sorry for anyone who voted remain but the place that benefits most from the E.U can't complain. Every Councillor/bureaucrat/politician who has fobbed off morons like Lorddothwails by blaming the E.U for things within their own control will probably be regretting it now they'll have to come begging for mercy and aid from the Tory party - with no one to fight their corner.

https://twitter.com/RobPulseNews/status/746844332855001088

if only.

http://theantimedia.org/brexit-worlds-400-richest/ - interesting.

PLP labour talking about splitting and leaving Watson with what is left of the normal Labour party...

Shadow chancellor apparently wants his mate out too..

Shadow cabinet going today..Council leaders tomorrow apparently.

Corbyn is history. .

Diane Abbott to be new shadow foreign secretary

Not before time truss. This referendum has highlighted his lack of leadership. Unable to get his message across or even give the pretence of passion or engagement with the topic. Getting rid seems the right thing to do, but not sure there is an obvious candidate to replace him.

My guess is there will be a GE in the next year to capitalise on Johnson's popularity before he is exposed as the shallow opportunist he is..

Smart move by Labour but as you say they'll need to choose wisely !!.

Who knows how the public will vote in a GE, given the recurrent statements people regret voting leave, did it for protest etc

Lots of independents getting seats and a hung parliament with a government with no mandate would be my guess.

I think there's more ''shallow opportunism'' being shown by Labour politicians in trying to be rid of Corbyn now. His ''7/10 comment'' was far from dynamic but was fundamentally honest and probably more in line with British public opinion than any of the tub thumping by other leading lights either side.

I found Cameron particularly irksome and unbelieveable throughout the campaign. Having claimed to have negotiated a better deal which failed to resonate with voters, he then resorted to other claims that flew in the face of so many Euro sceptic comments he had made in the not so distant past to fight elections and curry short-term favour.

As a bit of an aside, I suspect Obama and Carney also hindered the IN campaign. From experience, the British public tend not to take kindly to others suggesting what we should do.

Liam Fox admits today that the £350m per week figure is actually £160m per week. I'm assuming he hasn't just worked that out, and knew beforehand.
Surely there will be some people who voted Leave who will be angry and disillusioned at being so blatantly deceived, even if they are still happier out of the EU?

I think the main problem for Corbyn is the bulk of campaigners in this appear to have based their stances on how it will further their careers, Johnson being perhaps the worst culprit, but Corbyn just doesn't have the chutzpah to pull something like that off. Whilst his 7-10 comment might have been honest members of the public can afford to be indifferent on a political issue. The leader of a major political party almost certainly can't.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36633238
Blimey.

Corbin is a crap leader of the Labour Party and opposition. The torys are in crisis yet he's the one facing rebels and losing his job. He is utterly incompetent however nice he might be.

Whatever you think of him Cameron did get those reforms, he didn't claim them.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/14/uk-can-refuse-benefits-to-unemployed-eu-migrants-judges-rule

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35653155

People didn't realise the uk already had a great deal from the eu, so thought he didn't get enough.

I refuse to believe the default stance of people here is to be contrary, Obama etc had a duty to inform uk of their stance. No point in turning round after and having voters complaining even more about being uninformed.

JuliusHMarx wrote:Liam Fox admits today that the £350m per week figure is actually £160m per week. I'm assuming he hasn't just worked that out, and knew beforehand.
Surely there will be some people who voted Leave who will be angry and disillusioned at being so blatantly deceived, even if they are still happier out of the EU?

They were told before hand all that crap wasn't true and they voted that way anyway because they are stupid.

Wouldn't have changed their mind either as £160 million still seems like a huge number.

JuliusHMarx wrote:Liam Fox admits today that the £350m per week figure is actually £160m per week. I'm assuming he hasn't just worked that out, and knew beforehand.
Surely there will be some people who voted Leave who will be angry and disillusioned at being so blatantly deceived, even if they are still happier out of the EU?

Julius - don't forget about the people who have been angry and disillusioned about being so blatantly deceived since 1975.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

God let this be true

guildfordbat wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Liam Fox admits today that the £350m per week figure is actually £160m per week. I'm assuming he hasn't just worked that out, and knew beforehand.
Surely there will be some people who voted Leave who will be angry and disillusioned at being so blatantly deceived, even if they are still happier out of the EU?

Julius - don't forget about the people who have been angry and disillusioned about being so blatantly deceived since 1975.

well, since the birth of democracy really.

guildfordbat wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Liam Fox admits today that the £350m per week figure is actually £160m per week. I'm assuming he hasn't just worked that out, and knew beforehand.
Surely there will be some people who voted Leave who will be angry and disillusioned at being so blatantly deceived, even if they are still happier out of the EU?

Julius - don't forget about the people who have been angry and disillusioned about being so blatantly deceived since 1975.

Can see for yourself if that's true

http://ec.europa.eu/COMMFrontOffice/PublicOpinion/

Rowley wrote:I think the main problem for Corbyn is the bulk of campaigners in this appear to have based their stances on how it will further their careers, Johnson being perhaps the worst culprit, but Corbyn just doesn't have the chutzpah to pull something like that off. Whilst his 7-10 comment might have been honest members of the public can afford to be indifferent on a political issue. The leader of a major political party almost certainly can't.

Jeff - I would generally not only take but also agree with all your points there. I just feel that with the Referendum the passion and the commitment of many on the Remain side appeared contrived and there was a revolt against it.

The decision to leave was by 2%, it was hardly a revolt.

People stupidly believed the incorrect claims of the leave campaign re contributions and immigration.

Let's face it, if all that was true would have been a huge leave vote and everyone would have backed it.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Liam Fox admits today that the £350m per week figure is actually £160m per week. I'm assuming he hasn't just worked that out, and knew beforehand.
Surely there will be some people who voted Leave who will be angry and disillusioned at being so blatantly deceived, even if they are still happier out of the EU?

Julius - don't forget about the people who have been angry and disillusioned about being so blatantly deceived since 1975.

well, since the birth of democracy really.

Undoubtedly. That's why those who didn't have the latest decision go the way they wanted shouldn't be bleating about it.

If Corbyn had gone with the Leave camp, he'd probably have been the next PM.

mikey_dragon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Most young people are warped by the media and are always going out of their way to do what they determine is "always right." I just don't understand the media's demonisation of certain people (Farage, Trump, recently Boris), unless it's Kanye West course. The older generation have been around a lot longer and have been humped in the rear by all and sundry, I'll listen to them over mouthy, rich-people wannabe's any day.

Young people today have been born into a complex information heavy world. In my experience a lot of them are rightly very cynical of mainstream media. I actually think that there is more of a problem with a lot of older people who were brought up in simpler less cynical times buying into the messages pushed by the likes of the Mail and Express.

They're cynical of media that doesn't agree with their views. The Independant (ironic) is their bible. 

Back to AJ fight. That was a good response to my post btw Jules

The Independant? Great newspaper which I used to read. Currently so successful that you can no longer find a copy in a shop anywhere

Whilst I'm no fan of Corbyn...I don't believe his lack of leadership made any difference last week....

1. People can make up their own minds..

2. It was an anti-immigration vote...

Sorry Remain lost I think the UK will pay a heavy price...

It was a revolt...

guildfordbat wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Liam Fox admits today that the £350m per week figure is actually £160m per week. I'm assuming he hasn't just worked that out, and knew beforehand.
Surely there will be some people who voted Leave who will be angry and disillusioned at being so blatantly deceived, even if they are still happier out of the EU?

Julius - don't forget about the people who have been angry and disillusioned about being so blatantly deceived since 1975.

well, since the birth of democracy really.

Undoubtedly. That's why those who didn't have the latest decision go the way they wanted shouldn't be bleating about it.

Perhaps not bleat about the decision. But bleating about the deception of politicians seems reasonable though.

Ent wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Liam Fox admits today that the £350m per week figure is actually £160m per week. I'm assuming he hasn't just worked that out, and knew beforehand.
Surely there will be some people who voted Leave who will be angry and disillusioned at being so blatantly deceived, even if they are still happier out of the EU?

Julius - don't forget about the people who have been angry and disillusioned about being so blatantly deceived since 1975.

Can see for yourself if that's true

http://ec.europa.eu/COMMFrontOffice/PublicOpinion/

Thanks, Ent. Assume that backs up what I said. Even if not, it obviously doesn't invalidate what others have still said over the years.

what IS labour doing!!! The tories are weak, and all they can do is make themselves look even worse. Nows the time to look strong!

guildfordbat wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Liam Fox admits today that the £350m per week figure is actually £160m per week. I'm assuming he hasn't just worked that out, and knew beforehand.
Surely there will be some people who voted Leave who will be angry and disillusioned at being so blatantly deceived, even if they are still happier out of the EU?

Julius - don't forget about the people who have been angry and disillusioned about being so blatantly deceived since 1975.

well, since the birth of democracy really.

Undoubtedly. That's why those who didn't have the latest decision go the way they wanted shouldn't be bleating about it.

Would you support a second referendum if the amount of legitimate signatures on that petition reaches above the amount that voted leave?

Perhaps there will be a Labour split. The New Social Democrats. Who in time could merge with the Lib Dems to become the NDSLD - the New Democratic Social Liberal Democrats. It think it has a nice ring to it.

ShahenshahG wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Liam Fox admits today that the £350m per week figure is actually £160m per week. I'm assuming he hasn't just worked that out, and knew beforehand.
Surely there will be some people who voted Leave who will be angry and disillusioned at being so blatantly deceived, even if they are still happier out of the EU?

Julius - don't forget about the people who have been angry and disillusioned about being so blatantly deceived since 1975.

well, since the birth of democracy really.

Undoubtedly. That's why those who didn't have the latest decision go the way they wanted shouldn't be bleating about it.

Would you support a second referendum if the amount of legitimate signatures on that petition reaches above the amount that voted leave?

We keep having referendums until you get the result that is desired..

How very democratic.

No, because any Tom, Dixon or Harry can sign that thing.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Liam Fox admits today that the £350m per week figure is actually £160m per week. I'm assuming he hasn't just worked that out, and knew beforehand.
Surely there will be some people who voted Leave who will be angry and disillusioned at being so blatantly deceived, even if they are still happier out of the EU?

Julius - don't forget about the people who have been angry and disillusioned about being so blatantly deceived since 1975.

well, since the birth of democracy really.

Undoubtedly. That's why those who didn't have the latest decision go the way they wanted shouldn't be bleating about it.

Perhaps not bleat about the decision. But bleating about the deception of politicians seems reasonable though.

Undoubtedly again. That's why I flagged 1975. That's only an example of political deception but it was probably the main starting point for this particular subject.