Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[beninho]

First topic message reminder :

Having concerns about EU immigration does not make you a far right nutter or xenophobe. Mclaren, what is your knowledge on EU immigration, what dealings do you have with it? Can you see why people may have concerns about it?

Unless your concerns about how we can offer a more humane immigration system then you are xenophobe.  If you are worried about the geographical location of where someone popped out of a uterus then you are not thinking rationally.

And no, I cannot see why anyone would have any issue with the current levels of immigration to/from the UK.  Unless as I said above you are worried about how some people coming here are treated.

Do you not agree that an expanding population due to EU immigration, would lead to an extra burden on the NHS, housing, benefit and other public services aswell as the rise in rents?

Do you think that EU immigration, where people get fake payslips in order to claim benefits, working tax credits child tax credits and housing assistance? Or people that work minimal hours and tdo not pay any tax or nino who then can claim housing and benefit assistance? Or people that illegally overstay in the country, in order to achieve a loophole and gain housing or benefit assistance.

All of these are ongoing issues, though you did not answer my question in the first place.

[kwinigolfer]

Agree with Shotrock re Trump. Frightening prospect that his politics of ignorance, intolerance and bluster can win over most Americans.

But there's a strong possibility that they will.

[Shotrock]

I hope not Kwin!

United Kingdom not united at the moment ...

[McLaren]

Navy

Thanks for the link to the BBCR4 bit on the live update feed.

Although no exactly thinly veiled.

Can anyone find even one example of an EU migrant "taking" the job of a UK born citizen or "taking" a house from a UK born citizen? And when they say go back to how it was do they mean 80's Thatcherism, 70's economic woe, 50's and 60's struggles for equality, 40's war, 30's rise of fascism?

When exactly were the good old days that these morons speak of?

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

Thanks for the link to the BBCR4 bit on the live update feed.

Although no exactly thinly veiled.

Can anyone find even one example of an EU migrant "taking" the job of a UK born citizen or "taking" a house from a UK born citizen?  And when they say go back to how it was do they mean 80's Thatcherism, 70's economic woe, 50's and 60's struggles for equality, 40's war, 30's rise of fascism?

When exactly were the good old days that these morons speak of?

God only knows Mac and I doubt any of the Brexiteers do either. Some mythical Utopia I guess.

[Shotrock]

"Naive Nostalgia" is what I call it Mac.

It's the foundation of the Trump campaign at the moment. I'm guessing more than a handful of his supporters want to go back to the days when it was legal to own humans.

[kwinigolfer]

United Kingdom not united
United States not united

[Shotrock]

Tru dat Kwin.

And the UK will be smaller still if/when Scotland decides to leave.

[McLaren]

Shotrock

I like the "Naive nostalgia" label. Might have to borrow it.

[kwinigolfer]

I see the officials in Calais are preparing to transfer the migrant camp to Britain, switching immigration checks to England: "The British must take the consequences of their choice." That should be interesting. Perhaps they can even organize a daily ferry to Clacton.
Let's send Boris down to sort that out. And Drumpf can go over and make Calais great again.

[Be_the_ball]

Whatever happens in Europe after this, the UK should not break up. Westminster may not serve all, but that is a problem that can be solved within the UK.

[kwinigolfer]

John Major, at one time in the 90's, had no Cabinet Member (edit: representing a constituency) from outside an 80-mile (might have been closer) radius of London.

Until the Government can be seen to represent all the people all the time, instead of just the Greater London parasites of the nation's wealth, then a savvy Britain will always be divided.

PS: The same is true in the USA.

[super_realist]

Whatever happens in Europe after this, the UK should not break up. Westminster may not serve all, but that is a problem that can be solved within the UK.

The Scottish Independence rabble no longer have the "magic bullet" of "Scottish Oil" anymore. In 2015 the Government made ZERO in revenue off it. So that should dissuade at least a reasonable percentage of bitter Scots from using it as a reason to leave the UK.

That was one of their "trump" cards before, now it cannot be used at all as a tool of persuasion.

[McLaren]

Super

Who need oil when you have the magic bullet of England being full of stupid c**ts.

[Yadsendew]

You can fool 51.9% of the public some of the time, but you can't fool 51.9% of the public all the time.
Oh yes you can

Not entirely sure about the old codger argument; I'm an old codger and I voted to stay in and so did most of my fellow old codgers, well i think I did cos it's difficult to remember at my age.    

What the fracking hell happened. Feel sorry for the younger generation this will take a long time to get back, if ever.

[pedro]

Must be American expats asking question 2...

https://mobile.twitter.com/GoogleTrends/status/746303118820937728

[Be_the_ball]

There's an absolute power vacuum in the UK right now. The Tories are in a shambles and Labour are having a leadership coup. Scotland want independence and the Shinners want a border poll. What a complete mess.

[pedro]

Sounds like Yugoslavia.

[super_realist]

There's an absolute power vacuum in the UK right now. The Tories are in a shambles and Labour are having a leadership coup. Scotland want independence and the Shinners want a border poll. What a complete mess.

Not so sure about that. The arguments for Scottish Independence aren't so strong with $50 oil and even the square faced, knuckle dragging, non educated, benefit claiming, flag waving bigots who claim it's "Scotland's Oil" wouldn't have an argument they could win there.
Making a case for remain would be a lot easier these days die to Scotland's parlous economy. There might be an initial rush towards it, due to Brexit, but once the dust settles it would be clear that Scotland would struggle on its own.

The best thing that can happen now in the short term is that this is a catastrophic failure for the UK, AND also a big failure for those left in Europe so that they have to reconvene at some point and create some sort of new, modified EU that works for everyone.

[Roller_Coaster]

If Scotland did want to leave the UK would it meet the entry requirements of the EU as an independent nation? If so, how long would entry be likely to take?

Also, would it (on the face of the figures available) be a net financial contributor to the EU or would it currently be looking to take out more than it put in?

I wonder what price the "Does the UK want to retain Scotland?" vote, if the SNP carry on?

On the UK. With the shenanigans (read resignations and in-fighting) in the Con and Lab parties can anyone see anything other than leadership contests followed by an early general election (thus delaying the practical exercise of shaping the EU exit)?

[McLaren]

Super

I am not saying I think there should be another referendum I merely listed it in a list of votes the UK might face over the coming year. Just don't be shocked if come the autumn a second EU referendum has been engineered or that it is proposed that the result of the current one be ignored until after a general election. Again not necessarily my opinion or preference but what may happen in reality.

[McLaren]

"If Scotland did want to leave the UK would it meet the entry requirements of the EU as an independent nation? If so, how long would entry be likely to take?"

Probably quite a lot of them as the Scottish Act 1998 which created the Scottish Parliament is laced with concepts linking any legislation created in the parliament with EU laws and regulations. Everything the Scottish Parliament has done since 98 will have been done through a prism of EU legislation.

Although I have no idea if it would meet the economic criteria or how it could provide evidence that it could given that it has never had to exist on its own. If Scotland end up in the EU post brexit it won't be via the usual application process.

[McLaren]

Can I also ask how our Irish posters (NI and Republic) feel about brexit as I feel like Ireland has been screwed over more than anyone else.  The peace deal was such a wonderful achievement and appeared to rely on following the european convention on human rights along with other benefits provided by EU membership and an open border between the two countries.  The English have now shat all over this and provided instability to a still fragile situation.  It would have been nice if we could just have provided Ireland with a couple of generations of stability to help heal the wounds.  Apparently we are too selfish to do that.

PS, I assume Westminster will have to breach any resolutions lodged with the UN about the Irish peace deal to go through with brexit?

[super_realist]

What you have to ask is why the EU would be interested in admitting Scotland as a member. A small country with no tangible benefit to the Union, and no doubt a drain on it.
I can't really see why they'd want them.

I really wish we'd stop having all these bloody referendums. We elect MP's to represent us.

[McLaren]

Super

I think your last post shows you don't really get the political leanings of those really in favour of the EU. There is talk of the single market, regulations and so on but what really drives the philosophy of europhiles like myself is the idea of a highly integrated EU on a social level with thoughts of the economy a secondary issue.

Key decision makers in the EU will care more about the philosophy of the europen "project" than whether Scotland meets certain criteria.

[super_realist]

You're a patronising little pr1ck aren't you? I'm not talking about the criteria, I'm sure Scotland may well meet it, I'm simply not sure why the EU would consider admitting Scotland a benefit to them. As a country, they'd be about as useless as NI would be.

Why would an organisation let a country in which is simply going to be a drain upon it, just like the spud munchers have been.

Also, I wish you'd stop saying that this was English decision to get us out of Europe. It was nothing of the sort. It was WHOEVER voted no.
It was a straight vote count, and a decent amount of Scots, NI and Welsh also voted to exit. The majority of REMAIN votes came from England too.

[McLaren]

super

As I said, you don't seem to understand what the philosophy behind the EU is. It is only for pragmatic reasons that potential member states need to meet certain economic or financial criteria.

What really matters is a social and cultural union where ideas are freely shared between regions with different approaches to issues and a spreading of liberal values. As long as Scotland wants to engage with the rest of the EU and participate in the collaboration then it is welcome.

[super_realist]

Yeah, In the same way I don't understand golf course architecture because I don't suck on Doak's manhood like you. Why don't you get stuffed. You might see the EU as some socialist utopia which exists to meet your SJW agenda, most people don't. They see it as something upon which the economy of the country is grounded and that is what they are worried about, not whether the HRA is in place. You live in a 6th formers world.

The EU is not a charity. If it was about meeting criteria only then the rest of the EU would be happy to see the UK leave, but they aren't. Why would they be happy to see Scotland join? That's the question I ask.

The EU is absolutely not about spreading liberal values, it's about a fairer society, that isn't dependent on liberalism you plank.

[McLaren]

Super

I am sure there are some on the right who like the EU because of its positive impact on wealth creation but for a lot of people it is about a social union. The logic is along the lines of; there is no point in me having workers rights if other in the continent don't. You can fight for equality at quite a local level but via the institutions of the EU people across a whole continent benefit.

I agree in the UK the "SJW agenda" might not be at the forefront of peoples thoughts on the EU but it is in the rest of Europe.

The EU is about bringing equality to 500 million people and basking in the diverse range of ideas and cultures across the continent.

[super_realist]

Mac, you may not be old enough to remember its previous name. The EEC, The European ECONOMIC Union. Its PRIMARY function is to act as the worlds LARGEST market.

It is simply your ASSERTION that in rest of the EU, SJW issues  are at the forefront of people's thoughts. You have NOTHING which backs that up. You just hope that it is , and as usual you just make it up and then when questioned hastily go and google some links that you think support the idea, and if no one agrees with you then they must be "right wing".

When were you even there last???

If it is as such, and the UK is such an unjust and unfair place to live where no one cares about anyone else, why have you never moved there before? There was nothing to stop you, yet, as is usual, you don't put your money where your mouth is. The Champagne Socialist, benevolent sexist living and breathing too scared to actually do what he claims to believe in.

[MontysMerkin]

You 2 are just naysaying each other (as usual) when both of you have valid points. It is categorically not all about economics. There's no money in clean water, renewables or workers rights. These are lofty ideals that make no economic sense in the short term. The benefits are clear for (almost) all to see however. The referendum has been overshadowed (again as usual) by the media. Hearing John Humphreys laying into Corbyn about how quiet he'd been leading up to the vote, then scoffing when Corbyn told him he had been talking about it for weeks but not being covered by the media just showed what a bunch of tossers even the 'impartial BBC are. I think Corbyn pretty much summed up how most people thought about the EU- he knows it's Poopie but better than nothing...

[McLaren]

Super

As I said the "economic" arguments are a pragmatic concession, or an added bonus if you want to look at it that way.


When was I there last? I assume you mean a country from the EU. If so then within the last few months.

"why have you never moved there before?". Wish I had, but I can't speak any of the languages and neither can my partner(I guess I could have moved to Ireland). Although I have lived outside the EU.

[super_realist]

True Monty, but the things Mac is going on about, are not dependent upon a union. You do not need to be in a union to provide the correct "social libertarianism" that he loves so much.

You only have to go over to Norway to see that, probably the most liberal country in Europe and not in the EU, same with Iceland. You can be left wing, liberal and all the things Mac loves so much without being in Europe, whilst you can also be right wing and in Europe. The European Union does not exist to make Europe a more liberal place. It places no requirement on its members to govern in a liberal manner.

[super_realist]

Super

As I said the "economic" arguments are a pragmatic concession, or an added bonus if you want to look at it that way.


When was I there last? I assume you mean a country from the EU.  If so then within the last few months.

"why have you never moved there before?".  Wish I had, but I can't speak any of the languages and neither can my partner(I guess I could have moved to Ireland).  Although I have lived outside the EU.

And there we have it, the FLIMSIEST excuse I've ever seen you give. "I don't speak the language"? Well boo bloody hoo Mac.
I don't speak French or German, but I've spent a year in France and a year in Austria without problem, I also know plenty people in Norway and Denmark who don't speak those languages either. So what's your excuse again?

Why don't you look at the Wiki page for the EU and see just how low down the things you laud the EU for actually rank. It's PRIMARY function is for the economics of the union.

When the whole campaign was going on, did you just ignore that the MAJORITY of arguments were over the economy?

[McLaren]

Super

Check your PM's.

[super_realist]

Super

Check your PM's.

I don't accept PM's from you Mac. If you can't discuss stuff on here, don't bother. I've deleted your PM without reading it. I've told you before not to contact me in this manner.

[McLaren]

Super, fair enough but I am not posting personal info about where I live on a public forum.


"When the whole campaign was going on, did you just ignore that the MAJORITY of arguments were over the economy?"

I think I ignored almost all the arguments put forward. The quality of debate was so dire.

[super_realist]

Mac, Where you live is of no interest to me. I was simply saying your excuse for not living in the European Union before is absolutely laughable.
Virtually any big company throughout Europe will use English as the business language, even if the company is not British in origin.

Your final statement just shows to me that you are only interested in parts of the EU. You cannot deny that most people were interested in the economic consequences of Leave/Remain.
If you weren't interested in that, fine, but please don't assume that because you weren't that the rest of people interested in the debate think the same as you.

It's nothing to do with the quality of the debate and everything to do with the things which you are interested in. As usual, you only look at part of the issue. No problem with that, but that by no means that everyone else follows suit.

Did you think the value of the pound tanked because of the affect leaving the EU would have on SJW issues?
Do you think Moody's are going to re-assess the UK's credit rating based upon whether we change the number of immigrants we permit?
Do you think reducing interest rates is being considered in response to our perceived lack of liberalism going forward?

It's fine you have your own interests in part of the EU, but don't for a minute think they are the biggest part of the story, because it evidently isn't. Turn on any tv or radio and virtually no one is talking about the things you are.

[McLaren]

"Did you think the value of the pound tanked because of the affect leaving the EU would have on SJW issues?"

I wish. As I said the EU has a positive economic effect but I don't think that is its most important contribution to society.

It is hard to imagine however that the economic case is why you would be a passionate europhile, like I consider myself.

[super_realist]

That's the thing I'm getting at Mac, just because YOU see the EU one way, doesn't mean everyone does, and given that virtually none of the coverage then, now and in future is relating to your particular beefs, looks as if you are in the minority.

I am a Europhile, and it mostly comes down to economics. Why wouldn't it?
I've worked and work for Europe wide companies.

You don't need a union to address the issues you are concerned with, the EU has proven to have economic benefits for the countries involved, and that is what is the topic of discussion on virtually every news outlet. Hardly anyone is losing sleep over the issues you are wetting your pants over precisely because those aren't the main issues associated with the Union.

[navyblueshorts]

...I think I ignored almost all the arguments put forward.  The quality of debate was so dire.

[beninho]

The referendum was turned into an immigration thing when it should have been an economy thing. As showed already the economy is weakened with thus decision and god knows how long for. The rest us just peanuts.

[Yadsendew]

I'm a Europhile cos I wanted a stable secure future for my kids and voted to remain. I live in a EU country but don't speak the lingo, well not fluently anyway (Wales) . Wales, by the way, generally voted to leave and now despite this, Welsh politicians are now calling for an independence referendum because they want to stay in and, just like the Scots, see this as a way of circumventing the previous result! You couldn't make it up it.
,
How someone can be daft enough to ignore all the arguments for or against and then continue to spout uninformed rubbish, reminds me of most of the carrot dangling pre-referendum leave campaigners claptrap.

[McLaren]

Navy

To be more accurate it wasn't that I ignored what was said it was more a case of hearing what was said and realising no one was saying anything that would survive scrutiny.

[McLaren]

Glen Hodle just said Iceland are stuck in the 80's.

What generation are England stuck in?

[Davie]

England should still win this comfortably despite the early setback (remember San Marino?)

Unless Shrek or Delli Belli get themselves sent off

[super_realist]

Don't ever anyone tell me that Joe Hart is a good keeper.

Hopeless.

[McLaren]

:clap: Come on Iceland.

[Davie]

Joe Hart caught washing his hair again

[super_realist]

You'd think he was blind in one eye or something. It wasn't even a good shot.

P45 for Woy regardless.

[super_realist]

England should still win this comfortably despite the early setback (remember San Marino?)

Unless Shrek or Delli Belli get themselves sent off

Care to revise that statement?

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