Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[beninho]

First topic message reminder :

Having concerns about EU immigration does not make you a far right nutter or xenophobe. Mclaren, what is your knowledge on EU immigration, what dealings do you have with it? Can you see why people may have concerns about it?

Unless your concerns about how we can offer a more humane immigration system then you are xenophobe.  If you are worried about the geographical location of where someone popped out of a uterus then you are not thinking rationally.

And no, I cannot see why anyone would have any issue with the current levels of immigration to/from the UK.  Unless as I said above you are worried about how some people coming here are treated.

Do you not agree that an expanding population due to EU immigration, would lead to an extra burden on the NHS, housing, benefit and other public services aswell as the rise in rents?

Do you think that EU immigration, where people get fake payslips in order to claim benefits, working tax credits child tax credits and housing assistance? Or people that work minimal hours and tdo not pay any tax or nino who then can claim housing and benefit assistance? Or people that illegally overstay in the country, in order to achieve a loophole and gain housing or benefit assistance.

All of these are ongoing issues, though you did not answer my question in the first place.

[navyblueshorts]

Lot of dross here. Problem last night, mainly, was finishing and some good last ditch defence.

Alli - shot cleared off line; keeper never going to make it.
Sturridge - all he had to do was make contact, any contact, with that good ball over the top.
Vardy - one gilt-edged chance. Went for belting it when should have been a little more subtle.
Henderson - two volleys, cracking strikes and at least one going in but for the fact a defender got his face in the way.
Clyne - put clean through and smacked shot straight into keeper. Good save?
Lallana - one very good snap shot that keeper made decent save from.

Anything else? On other days, that match would have been over by half-time. Worst bit for me really, was the lack of composure in last 10-15 minutes when they all went a bit headless chicken. Agree, was disappointing result but you'd think the world had ended.

[navyblueshorts]

Yeah but my point is they should be able to attract a bigger / better name.

Why?

They aren't a team with a history of success, they aren't a team which looks like it enjoys tournament football, they aren't a team that looks like they have the ability to ever challenge or have players capable of adjusting to tournament football.

Apart from the overinflated salary, I don't see England as being any more of an attractive proposition than teams of a similar standing. Second rate team, hence second rate manager.

Well, let's see. Big salary probably a good carrot. Chance to actually make a difference to 'underachieving' national team might not be unattractive either. Depends if a manager wants a challenge or not. Once they find out what the situation really is though with FA and Premiership, wouldn't be surprised if initial shine quickly disappears.

[beninho]

All teams complain when playing against defensive teams, they just complain more if they cannot break them down. Its just the English team is not as good as some others in breaking down defensive teams.

I've not seen any England team not appear to be disappointed they have been knocked out of a tournament. And I dont think the team have showed a lack of passion in these 3 games, the squad also appear to be together. We just don't have any real game changers able to break down another team.

Blunt is a good discription, there was no real cutting edge, we lacked any width, and that is the fault of the manager, but apart from Townsend who the hell do we have?

[super_realist]

You could say the same for a dozen countries, but they aren't attracting big names either. England aren't a special case or a "sleeping giant"

England don't underachieve. They almost always reach their level or potential. It's just that that level doesn't match what people unrealistically hope for.

[pedro]

Yeah but my point is they should be able to attract a bigger / better name.

Why?

They aren't a team with a history of success, they aren't a team which looks like it enjoys tournament football, they aren't a team that looks like they have the ability to ever challenge or have players capable of adjusting to tournament football.

Apart from the overinflated salary, I don't see England as being any more of an attractive proposition than teams of a similar standing. Second rate team, hence second rate manager.

It would be a bit like saying that Palace, Everton or West Brom should attract top name managers.

Because England IS a big team, at least that is how they are perceived. Regardless of what they in reality are and what you and I think.

[super_realist]

England are only a big team to the English. Do you really think the rest of Europe or the rest of the world see them as contenders? If they were as big as people claim, why are they not attracting top managers, especially with the money on offer?

It's like the old hackneyed cliché from Rangers and Celtic fans that they are big teams. The number of fans you have means nothing.  By that standard Russia are a big team. Look how good they are though.

England are the Richard Gasquet of Football. Occasional good performances, maybe the occasional latter stages of a tournament, but most of the time, out in the early rounds and lacking a game capable of competing regularly.

[navyblueshorts]

All teams complain when playing against defensive teams, they just complain more if they cannot break them down. Its just the English team is not as good as some others in breaking down defensive teams.

I've not seen any England team not appear to be disappointed they have been knocked out of a tournament. And I dont think the team have showed a lack of passion in these 3 games, the squad also appear to be together. We just don't have any real game changers able to break down another team.

Blunt is a good discription, there was no real cutting edge, we lacked any width, and that is the fault of the manager, but apart from Townsend who the hell do we have?

I must have been missing something last night. Pretty sure Clyne, in particular, with support from Henderson gave plenty down the right and Bertrand did well enough up the left. Crossing was pretty poor though.

[pedro]

England are only a big team to the English. Do you really think the rest of Europe or the rest of the world see them as contenders?

Yes

If they were as big as people claim, why are they not attracting top managers, especially with the money on offer?

Maybe the FA is looking for English managers only? maybe potential international manages are scared off by the press? Dubious teams like Greece have succeeded attracting good managers (Rehhagel) with big money and achieved success. Why should England, with its ambitions and history, settle for Hodgson who has a far from impressing resume?

[pedro]

All teams complain when playing against defensive teams, they just complain more if they cannot break them down. Its just the English team is not as good as some others in breaking down defensive teams.

I've not seen any England team not appear to be disappointed they have been knocked out of a tournament. And I dont think the team have showed a lack of passion in these 3 games, the squad also appear to be together. We just don't have any real game changers able to break down another team.

Blunt is a good discription, there was no real cutting edge, we lacked any width, and that is the fault of the manager, but apart from Townsend who the hell do we have?

I must have been missing something last night. Pretty sure Clyne, in particular, with support from Henderson gave plenty down the right and Bertrand did well enough up the left. Crossing was pretty poor though.

Agree Clyne was good.

[beninho]

England have had big name successful foreign managers in Sven and Capello, both did ok.
We've had promising young English manager in McClaren, he was poor.
We've had experienced English Managers in Keegan, Hodgson while Keegan both ok.

God knows where you go next.

[beninho]

I think Clyne cut in quite a lot, Bertrand did not offer much on the other side. Compared to the way Walker played the last couple of games though when he was picking up so many balls especially from Rooney, I think it was noticeable the difference with clyne in his place.

[super_realist]

England are only a big team to the English. Do you really think the rest of Europe or the rest of the world see them as contenders?

Yes

If they were as big as people claim, why are they not attracting top managers, especially with the money on offer?

Maybe the FA is looking for English managers only? maybe potential international manages are scared off by the press? Dubious teams like Greece have succeeded attracting good managers (Rehhagel) with big money and achieved success. Why should England, with its ambitions and history, settle for Hodgson who has a far from impressing resume?

Maybe from an English perspective, England like to think the rest of the world see them as a big team, but when they haven't reached the SF of a competition in 20 years, I sincerely doubt anyone does. Sweden reached a SF in 94, do people see them as big too? No. Nor are England in anything other than the media.

If England FA are only looking for English managers, then it reinforces their small inward looking mentality. There aren't any outstanding English managers, therefore they can't expect outstanding tournaments.

To me, the problem with England starts with the FA, an outdated, institutionalised bunch of old farts who have no idea. Much like the R&A. Stuck in their ways, no ideas, no inspiration, content to go along on ancient reputation and a false lofty position.

[MontysMerkin]

So Hodgsons not a big enough manager for a team who reckons it's better than it is? Queer logic my fine fellow... So Hodgsons perfect then.

[super_realist]

It's not that he isn't big enough, it's that he's a no-mark manager with a track record of tournament failure. At the very least, a new face might at the very least inspire a bit of confidence.
Employing the same manager, and expecting some sort of miraculous tournament turnaround is really the perplexing thing.

0-0 against Slovakia is par for the course under such a regime. Not sure how anyone can expect anything else. It's what England do at these things.

[JAS]

England are only a big team to the English. Do you really think the rest of Europe or the rest of the world see them as contenders?

Yes

If they were as big as people claim, why are they not attracting top managers, especially with the money on offer?

Maybe the FA is looking for English managers only? maybe potential international manages are scared off by the press? Dubious teams like Greece have succeeded attracting good managers (Rehhagel) with big money and achieved success. Why should England, with its ambitions and history, settle for Hodgson who has a far from impressing resume?

Maybe from an English perspective, England like to think the rest of the world see them as a big team, but when they haven't reached the SF of a competition in 20 years, I sincerely doubt anyone does. Sweden reached a SF in 94, do people see them as big too? No. Nor are England in anything other than the media.

If England FA are only looking for English managers, then it reinforces their small inward looking mentality. There aren't any outstanding English managers, therefore they can't expect outstanding tournaments.

To me, the problem with England starts with the FA, an outdated, institutionalised bunch of old farts who have no idea. Much like the R&A. Stuck in their ways, no ideas, no inspiration, content to go along on ancient reputation and a false lofty position.

I think England's biggest problem are the Press and the media who whip up a frenzy, create unrealistic expectation then seek to vilify and ridicule anyone who doesn't quite get it right. Their treatment of Bobby Robson (who took them to the brink of the Italia 90 final was nothing short of disgusting). Venables as well did a reasonable job but the press couldn't help digging into his background looking for dirt. Then there was the likes of Hoddle, McLaren & Taylor...poor sods. Now it would appear Hodgson is heading for a similar dose of ridicule.
As for foreigners, their treatment of both Ericsson & Capello who both came into the job with very good pedigrees was xenophobic at best. What foreigner would dare touch them now? Not hard to think why Ferguson turned them down. The only foreigner they'd get now is one who'd be happy to take all the xenophobic Poopie whilst getting paid millions. The fixation of sticking with English managers now is extremely limiting. An English manager has NEVER won the Premiership. So all in all I'm looking forward to the circus that will go with appointing Woys replacement and watching the poor unfortunate go from being the best thing since sliced bread to an abject failure in around 4 years. I'd say the job was the biggest poisoned chalice in world sport today

[MontysMerkin]

Employing the same manager, and expecting some sort of miraculous tournament turnaround is really the perplexing thing.

Well I for one welcome our new speech impaired overlord. A no mark manager for a no mark team. English expectations are at the correct level (not in the media), we may progress a bit further, but win? That's like expecting Scotland to qualify for anything - reckon even shinty might be beyond em.

[super_realist]

Agreed Monty, Scotland are generally terrible at all sport, Tennis aside.

[beninho]

Sh*t hot at curling aren't they. Good old Eve....

[pedro]

Agreed Monty, Scotland are generally terrible at all sport.

Depends which Monty you ask...

[Davie]

I'm surprised Super hasn't been more complementary of England so far. Such a poor team, unbeaten in the group stages, dominant in possession in all three games, plenty of chances (easy group I know). One goal conceded from a 30 yard free kick that should have been defended better, and one goal from an inevitable defensive cock up. With a fair wind they could have gone through with 100% record

[Yadsendew]

I'm surprised Super hasn't been more complementary of England so far. Such a poor team, unbeaten in the group stages, dominant in possession in all three games, plenty of chances (easy group I know). One goal conceded from a 30 yard free kick that should have been defended better, and one goal from an inevitable defensive man sausage up. With a fair wind they could have gone through with 100% record

But they didn't Davie did they?

Good old Roy changed a winning team playing well (possibly best since 1996) and rung the changes, Who on earth is advising him, hopefully not Gary Neville (La liga Manager of the year). Interviewed as an expert pundit on Welsh television before the match Mark Hughes was asked on Roy's strategy; with a glint in his eye Mark said that "Roy must know what he's doing". England may progress further due to the abundance of talent but it will be despite Roy's questionable strategies not as a result of them. Furthermore, I had a wager on England so I'm not bitter or twisted - honest!!!

[Yadsendew]

England are only a big team to the English. Do you really think the rest of Europe or the rest of the world see them as contenders?

Yes

If they were as big as people claim, why are they not attracting top managers, especially with the money on offer?

Maybe the FA is looking for English managers only? maybe potential international manages are scared off by the press? Dubious teams like Greece have succeeded attracting good managers (Rehhagel) with big money and achieved success. Why should England, with its ambitions and history, settle for Hodgson who has a far from impressing resume?

Maybe from an English perspective, England like to think the rest of the world see them as a big team, but when they haven't reached the SF of a competition in 20 years, I sincerely doubt anyone does. Sweden reached a SF in 94, do people see them as big too? No. Nor are England in anything other than the media.

If England FA are only looking for English managers, then it reinforces their small inward looking mentality. There aren't any outstanding English managers, therefore they can't expect outstanding tournaments.

To me, the problem with England starts with the FA, an outdated, institutionalised bunch of old farts who have no idea. Much like the R&A. Stuck in their ways, no ideas, no inspiration, content to go along on ancient reputation and a false lofty position.

I think England's biggest problem are the Press and the media who whip up a frenzy, create unrealistic expectation then seek to vilify and ridicule anyone who doesn't quite get it right. Their treatment of Bobby Robson (who took them to the brink of the Italia 90 final was nothing short of disgusting). Venables as well did a reasonable job but the press couldn't help digging into his background looking for dirt. Then there was the likes of Hoddle, McLaren & Taylor...poor sods. Now it would appear Hodgson is heading for a similar dose of ridicule.
As for foreigners, their treatment of both Ericsson & Capello who both came into the job with very good pedigrees was xenophobic at best. What foreigner would dare touch them now? Not hard to think why Ferguson turned them down. The only foreigner they'd get now is one who'd be happy to take all the xenophobic Poopie whilst getting paid millions. The fixation of sticking with English managers now is extremely limiting. An English manager has NEVER won the Premiership. So all in all I'm looking forward to the circus that will go with appointing Woys replacement and watching the poor unfortunate go from being the best thing since sliced bread to an abject failure in around 4 years. I'd say the job was the biggest poisoned chalice in world sport today

For a reported salary of around 5 million Euro a year and the top paid Manager at the competition, I don't think Roy will be too concerned.

Always wondered what came before 'sliced bread'

[SmithersJones]

I have to say I have a lot of sympathy for Roy's point that he made 4 changes, not 6. The same people who are haranguing him for making 6 changes were congratulating him for making the change that saw Sturridge and Vardy on at half time. Similarly, it's unusual for teams to park the bus against England, so it was a challenge they didn't expect to have to overcome (though it's probably fair to say they should have considered the possibility given Slovakia's position in the group. But then who's to say they didn't, and that the changes were in part to put doubt into Slovakia's minds?)

[kwinigolfer]

Brilliant free kick by Messi last night . . . . . .

[Roller_Coaster]

Ahh the benefit of hindsight...

Second place results in Spain, Italy, Germany and France (and possibly Portugal) in the same half of the draw as England. Croatia and Belgium in Wales' half. Likely mis-placed optimism that England will win the games I am fully aware, but I think Portugal (L16) France (QF) Spain/Italy/Germany (SF) is a very possible route (apart from the likelihood of not negotiating any of them!). You have to beat good sides to win things, but a bit more nous and you wouldn't have to bloody beat nearly all of them!

Not complaining about the inability to score last time, sometimes it happens against the proverbial bus parkers, it's the failure to kill off/see out the game against (what I think are the worst side in the tournament) Russia that will have done for us.

[Roller_Coaster]

Also - see Rory has pulled out of the Olympics over Zika.

[Yadsendew]

I have to say I have a lot of sympathy for Roy's point that he made 4 changes, not 6. The same people who are haranguing him for making 6 changes were congratulating him for making the change that saw Sturridge and Vardy on at half time. Similarly, it's unusual for teams to park the bus against England, so it was a challenge they didn't expect to have to overcome (though it's probably fair to say they should have considered the possibility given Slovakia's position in the group. But then who's to say they didn't, and that the changes were in part to put doubt into Slovakia's minds?)

Roy made the changes at half time (or was it Gary) against Wales because they were losing and not playing very well and it had an effect. Roy (or was it.....) rung the changes for the next game as a consequence of winning and playing well and it had an effect.

[Davie]

Much is being made of infographics posted online comparing England chances made against chances made by other contending sides - and pointing out how bad this makes us look for not converting them. On the contrary, the fact that we have made something like double or even treble the number of chances than other sides is in fact a good thing and now we just need to start converting them

I'd rather be in the position of creating a shed load of chances than not creating at all

[Roller_Coaster]

Agreed Davie, although the infographics may require the addition of banjos and cow's arses not being in connection with one another.

[super_realist]

England spawnily avoid a date with Portugal by virtue of a last minute Iceland goal.

[Mad for Chelsea]

It can't be wrong to sneakily want Iceland to beat England, can it? What a wonderful story theirs is! Also, my team's leader is Icelandic, so...

[super_realist]

They are certainly playing well enough to do so (not that England are), and if England are to go out as they usually do around now, could it be to a better team?

[Davie]

On the "form" of the last 10 days I'd rather have played the show pony and his rent boys than STig Thunderhammer and the crew!

[Mad for Chelsea]

Ireland completely outplaying Italy in that half.

Not a sentence I was expecting to type.

Should have had a penalty there.

[pedro]

24 teams are too much imo. Why should a team advance if they haven't won any games? And by having 3 teams advancing from each group you ask for defensive play. Reduce to 16 teams again, or make 4 groups with 6 teams and only the top 2 advancing to QFs.

[Yadsendew]

Fantastic result for Ireland what an atmosphere there'll be in Lille tonight.

Iceland V England then, everyone's surname name in the Iceland squad ends in son except one which ends in sen! I reckon it will be an interesting team briefing for Roy and Gary (my son). Best remember the squad numbers I say

[MontysMerkin]

Love to see all the major home nations playing in the knockout stages.

[super_realist]

LP, how are you finding the delights of Leven?

[beninho]

3rd place out of 4 should never qualify especially with 1 win and 2 defeats. The tournament has way to many teams in it, but i've quite enjoyed it.

Germany Vs Belgium final?

[westisbest]

I like the new format(would say that being Ireland fan), these so called lesser nations have stepped up to the plate.

Some good games.

Onto the last 16, lets see what happens.

[Roller_Coaster]

Germany Vs Croatia final if I were to bet on one.

I have quite enjoyed it thus far and while I certainly don't agree with third place going through, the excitement has been there in how both of the groups finished yesterday. Marred by the last 10 of the Portugal Hungary game as they both gave up (although the prior 80 mins were electrifying).

Well done Ireland, emotions from lowest of the low to the highest peaks. Hoolahan's (frankly pitiful) miss and certain elimination to his (frankly delightful) pass for Brady's ghosting run and header in and qualification. Now, the chance to get at France.

Ireland v Iceland QF anyone?

[beninho]

I will never hear a bad word about Saint Martin, glad to see him doing great work with Ireland. And Steve Guppy on the coaching staff.

[super_realist]

Has anyone heard Mike Parry's impression of Martin O Neill? Class

[Mad for Chelsea]

I'm with west, I quite like the format. It's given the "smaller" nations more to play for, and meant that all teams have gone into their last match with a chance of qualifying. You wouldn't have given Ireland much chance, but they battled for it brilliantly, and thoroughly deserved their win. As west says, giving the teams something to play for has resulted in the lesser ones really has seen them respond superbly. My favourite stories so far would be Iceland's incredible path, Ireland's minor miracle last night, even Northern Ireland digging deep to not lose too badly against Germany. All wonderful performances against sides that far outgunned them on paper.

[pedro]

Yes and no mfc. Too many boring matches, especially the first 2 rounds. Goal average has been the lowest in ages. A system where it's easier to qualify to L16 than not is not to my likings. The incentive to play defensively is too big.

And why not have 4 groups of 6 in stead, with top 2 qualifying. Or a huge tourney where all nations of Europe participate in 12 groups of 4, with only the two best qualifying. Similar to the old Copa America. The latter format shouldn't prevent the likes of Iceland or Ireland from qualifying. I understand smaller teams are exited but it kind of devalues the whole thing baring in mind you also have 18 months of qualification. For what? To eliminate San Marino, Gibraltar and Andorra? Then have a pre-qual system like the CL and have a warm-up tourney before the Euros.

[super_realist]

It's just as well that there are 3 going through as if it were 16 teams to begin with, on those results, England might already be out.

[Davie]

It's just as well that there are 3 going through as if it were 16 teams to begin with, on those results, England might already be out.

Are you suggesting if only two had gone through, Russia and Slovakia may have tried harder? Last time I looked England still qualified 2nd (and unbeaten)

[Davie]

Or a huge tourney where all nations of Europe participate in 12 groups of 4, with only the two best qualifying.

Bit hard to organize a straight knockout round with only 24 teams

[Yadsendew]

Heard on SKY this morning that the authorities feel that the hooligan element may no longer be an issue in this tournament now that Russia hasn't qualified. I hope that's true but I'm not so sure, for I understand the thugs from all sides merely used the occasion and venues as meeting points to beat the sh1t out of each other with little or no interest in football. Whereas, I'm not particularly concerned if grown men want to do this to one another (they'd be fighting someone somewhere anyway) and, I understand there is an unwritten code amongst them, I find it horrifying when these organised thugs take this into an innocent family stadium environment / event.

I wonder how the Russian organisers will deal with these potential dark age issues in the build up to the next world cup.

[kwinigolfer]

You still have the Northern Croats who want to beat the sh1t out of the Southern Croats . . . . . . . Difficult to legislate against them.

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