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England 45-man EPS

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Post by robbo277 Sun 26 Jun 2016, 3:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

Post updated for Eddie Jones' training squad.

From EnglandRugby.com


  • Final EPS to be announced on 30 September
  • Nathan Hughes included for first time


England Head Coach Eddie Jones has announced a provisional 45-man elite player squad (EPS) for England’s pre-season training camp in August.

The squad will meet at the Lensbury Hotel from 6-8 August and take part in training, planning meetings and individual reviews in preparation for the Old Mutual Wealth Series against South Africa, Fiji, Argentina and Australia later in the year.

Jones has named a number of uncapped players to attend the camp. Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers) and Nathan Hughes (Wasps) are included for the first time while Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins) and Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) have all previously spent time with England.

Following their series win in South Africa with England Saxons, Dan Robson (Wasps), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks) and Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby) will join the camp, as will Joe Marchant (Harlequins) and Will Evans (Leicester Tigers), who were part of the England team who won the World Rugby U20 Championship in June.

MOST DOMINANT TEAM IN THE WORLD
England will announce a final 45-man EPS on 30 September for the Old Mutual Wealth Series starting against South Africa at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday 12 November.

“This camp sets the scene for November,” said Jones. “It’s important to catch-up with the players prior to the start of the season and continue to put our plans in place.

“We’ll use this time to reset and review each player’s goals so they’re clear on what is expected of them between now and when we meet up again in October. It also gives us an opportunity to meet and assess some new players and ensure they are familiar with the England setup.

“The long-term strategy for England is to develop a side who can be the most dominant team in world rugby, so we’ve chosen a number of new faces to attend this camp on the form they have shown recently or the potential we see in them.

“There will always be opportunities for anyone playing consistently well in the Premiership at the start of the season to force their way into the EPS - the door is always open. Naturally players not included in this pre-season camp will be disappointed, but consistent high-level performances can change this."

HUGE CHALLENGE
England sealed a 3-0 whitewash of Australia in June and are now the second-ranked team in world rugby, however, Jones is expecting a "huge challenge" from their next opponents at Twickenham - South Africa.

“England has not beaten South Africa since 2006 and we’ve lost our last five games against the Springboks at Twickenham," said Jones. "Not a single player who will attend the pre-season camp has played in a side that has ever beaten South Africa.

“While we acknowledge that we’re moving in the right direction we also recognise that defeat is never far away. It’s important the players all keep trying to improve and push themselves to reach new standards in their game. We cannot afford to have any complacency in our approach to this Test.”

45 man provisional EPS for England’s August training camp

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)

Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)

Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)

Jamie George (Saracens)

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)

Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)

Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)

James Haskell (Wasps)

Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  

Nathan Hughes (Wasps)

Maro Itoje (Saracens)

George Kruis (Saracens)

Joe Launchbury (Wasps)

Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

Joe Marler (Harlequins)

Matt Mullan (Wasps)

Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)

Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)

Danny Care (Harlequins)

Elliot Daly (Wasps)

Owen Farrell (Saracens)

George Ford (Bath Rugby)

Alex Goode (Saracens)

Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)

Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)

Joe Marchant (Harlequins)

Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)

Dan Robson (Wasps)

Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)

Joe Simpson (Wasps)

Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)

Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)

Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Original post:
While the dust settles on the most successful trip down South for an England team since 2003, Eddie Jones will have to start thinking about naming his first EPS squad that is completely his.

You would assume the 23 from that second test would form the bedrock of the squad, but then what about the other 10 spots? There are big question marks over:

Joe Marler
Undisputed first choice under Lancaster and just about held off Mako Vunipola during the Six Nations, but he's been hauled in front of the disciplinary committee three times since March and made himself unavailable for selection. Mako Vunipola has played very well and probably has the starting spot for the first Autumn International, but do you stick with Mullan as back-up or do you bring back Marler, assuming he's available?

Teimana Harrison and the backrow
So Robshaw, Haskell, Vunipola and Clifford will all be in the EPS, but does Harrison come back from being subbed after 30 minutes? Beaumont is another option, as is Nathan Hughes now - but does he come straight into an EPS?

Centre options
Manu and Te'o were named in the initial squad for the Australia tour, with Burrell filling in for Manu. Burrell overtook Te'o and started the first test, but Burrell and the "Bosher" gameplan were both ditched after 30 minutes of the first test. Will Burrell recover? Did Jones not like what he saw from Te'o when he got into camp? And does Manu come back in? Do we use any of them?

We also have Slade, who toured and didn't get on the pitch or from left-field our best two under-20s were Mallinder and Marchant, do either of these come into consideration?

Saxons
The Saxons won their two "test" series in South Africa. Taylor, Attwood, Kvesic, Robson, Cipriani and Hill will all come into consideration.

Potential EPS
Forwards (19)
Hartley, George, Cowan-Dickie
Mako Vunipola, Cole, Marler, Hill, Mullan, Brookes
Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes
Haskell, Robshaw, Clifford, Hughes
Vunipola, Beaumont

Backs (14)
Youngs, Care, Robson
Ford, Farrell, Mallinder
Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly
Yarde, Nowell, Watson
Brown, Goode

Who would you pick in your EPS if you were Eddie Jones?


Last edited by robbo277 on Tue 02 Aug 2016, 6:31 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Updating post for new developments)

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 26 Jul 2016, 9:48 am

PS Whilst mentioning 13's and centres Can I just say though that Joseph impressed me this AI. Not so much for the electric attack which we didn't quite see so much off...but for his defensive performances.

For a slighter build he is very powerful and put a few great shifts in generally.

Just need to get him more in the game offensively.

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Post by propdavid_london Tue 26 Jul 2016, 10:11 am

Question - Has JJ had less ball since Farrell moved into the 12 spot?

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Post by BamBam Tue 26 Jul 2016, 10:22 am

I'm in favour of Manu being seen strictly as a 13 tbh

1. He's going to be playing there for Leicester with Toomua at 12
2. Gives us the strike runner at 13 in competition with Joseph/Daly, and keep the second playmaker at 12

One of my frustrations has been how often England have had to change game plan because one player is out injured

With that framework, we've got 3 options at 12 and 3 at 13 to keep a consistent game plan. Even if Manu is a very different 13 to JJ/Daly, they are still all guys who put the fear into the opposition with ball in hand

Likewise, Farrell/Slade/Mallinder (even if I do think its too early for Prince Harry) offer similar skill sets at 12

If it aint broke dont fix it!!

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Post by propdavid_london Tue 26 Jul 2016, 10:29 am

All I know is that Manu is one of those guys that opposition would not enjoy playing against - even if he is lurking with intent off the bench!
I was lass concerned when Seb Chabal started matches than when he was on the bench. Impact off the bench is not to be underestimated - and Manu could be a game changer.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 26 Jul 2016, 10:35 am

propdavid_london wrote:Question - Has JJ had less ball since Farrell moved into the 12 spot?

I actually think he has yes. Or maybe just not so much in positions that he can really attack like we know he can.

It could come down to the tactics and set up of the side aswell. He's a quality player so I suspect as the side evolves he'll get much more opportunity to show what he can do.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 26 Jul 2016, 10:37 am

propdavid_london wrote:All I know is that Manu is one of those guys that opposition would not enjoy playing against - even if he is lurking with intent off the bench!
I was lass concerned when Seb Chabal started matches than when he was on the bench.  Impact off the bench is not to be underestimated - and Manu could be a game changer.

That seems to be how Eddie views his bench, too. I like the idea that if you start with, say, Youngs, Ford, Farrell and Joseph in midfield with Care, Slade and Manu on the bench you can change the style of the game in a number of different ways.

It's moving from a mindset of "oh no, we have to change our style of play every time someone gets injured" to one of "we have the players to dictate the style of play, and if the opposition get used to us playing one way, we bring on our bench and play another way." The last time we were actively able to do that might have been 2003, when we could swap Catt in if Tindall wasn't working or Jonny needed more support.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 26 Jul 2016, 11:09 am

Yeah hit the nail on the head Poorfour.

He's simply doing what the big 3 have been doing to greater or lesser degrees for years.

Bringing us up to date with modern rugby I guess - something Lancaster tried to do but ultimately seemed to struggle, yet Jones is so far doing fairly straight forward.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 26 Jul 2016, 11:16 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
I think playing Manu would be a serious step backwards.
A fit and on fire Manu is a serious player to have in the side if used in the right way - not just as a battering ram...
He will need to learn to pass and kick. I have never seen any indication that he is anything other than a battering ram. Don't get me wrong he is an exceptionally good battering ram but I do not see that succeeding any more at the top level. Wales demonstrate with Roberts that a team with a limited twelve is a limited team that is easy to defend against.

I disagree that he will need to learn to kick...especially if he has players all around him who can kick. Farrell, Ford, Daly, Mallinder etc etc.

His passing can improve but its not appalling. He offloads very well.

Its more about how well he is used. He's very good hitting gaps as well and is almost impossible to stop in those situations.
The biggest problem is we haven't seen him fully fit and match fit for so long. He may never make it back...or could come back stronger than ever.

When I am feeling very optimistic I think that having all the time out at this stage of his career may help his body to last a lot longer into the future than it might otherwise have. As ever its all bets off until he is properly match fit and has played a few games. He wasn't match fit last season when he did play but was still scoring tries and making decisive impacts on the games he played in, which is a good sign.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 26 Jul 2016, 11:24 am

Yeah ultimately, Beshocked is correct, Manu needs to be removed from any thoughts until he's tearing up trees for Leicester.

Until then I think we are well stocked for talented quality centres coming through.

Just wonder where the physical specimen is coming from. Maybe Mallinder can fill that? Not sure though. Burrell hasn't done it.

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Post by Gooseberry Tue 26 Jul 2016, 12:41 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Question - Has JJ had less ball since Farrell moved into the 12 spot?

To be fair England hardly had the ball at all in Australia.

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Post by beshocked Tue 26 Jul 2016, 12:57 pm


Geordiefalcon

I think Mallinder can fill the role personally. Burrell hasn't but then again I don't think Burrell is as well rounded as Mallinder.

Some youngsters standout and Mallinder fits that bill at the moment.

Of course Mallinder needs to cement his place in the Saints 1st team but I am sure he can.

It also makes it easier to be prepared for international rugby when you're physically a bit bigger. At 6,5 Mallinder certainly isn't a small man. It's why I think someone like North found it relatively easy to make the step up to international level IMO.


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Post by lostinwales Tue 26 Jul 2016, 1:10 pm

beshocked wrote:
Geordiefalcon

I think Mallinder can fill the role personally. Burrell hasn't but then again I don't think Burrell is as well rounded as Mallinder.

Some youngsters standout and Mallinder fits that bill at the moment.

Of course Mallinder needs to cement his place in the Saints 1st team but I am sure he can.

It also makes it easier to be prepared for international rugby when you're physically a bit bigger. At 6,5 Mallinder certainly isn't a small man. It's why I think someone like North found it relatively easy to make the step up to international level IMO.


The only guy in the U20's team that I saw who looked bigger than prince Harry was Kitchener the younger (who I believe is 6'7''). Odd seeing the biggest guy on the pitch playing at 10.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 26 Jul 2016, 2:10 pm

lostinwales wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Geordiefalcon

I think Mallinder can fill the role personally. Burrell hasn't but then again I don't think Burrell is as well rounded as Mallinder.

Some youngsters standout and Mallinder fits that bill at the moment.

Of course Mallinder needs to cement his place in the Saints 1st team but I am sure he can.

It also makes it easier to be prepared for international rugby when you're physically a bit bigger. At 6,5 Mallinder certainly isn't a small man. It's why I think someone like North found it relatively easy to make the step up to international level IMO.


The only guy in the U20's team that I saw who looked bigger than prince Harry was Kitchener the younger (who I believe is 6'7''). Odd seeing the biggest guy on the pitch playing at 10.

Laugh

Back in the days playing for my old school 1st XV the fly half was the size of a very large fat prop forward! But what a boot he had on him....

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Post by Exiledinborders Tue 26 Jul 2016, 6:18 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Back in the days playing for my old school 1st XV the fly half was the size of a very large fat prop forward! But what a boot he had on him....
Do you still keep in touch with Andy Goode?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 26 Jul 2016, 7:30 pm

Yes I was the one who persuaded him to come to us for a few months.....

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Post by aucklandlaurie Fri 29 Jul 2016, 8:29 am

lostinwales wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Geordiefalcon

I think Mallinder can fill the role personally. Burrell hasn't but then again I don't think Burrell is as well rounded as Mallinder.

Some youngsters standout and Mallinder fits that bill at the moment.

Of course Mallinder needs to cement his place in the Saints 1st team but I am sure he can.

It also makes it easier to be prepared for international rugby when you're physically a bit bigger. At 6,5 Mallinder certainly isn't a small man. It's why I think someone like North found it relatively easy to make the step up to international level IMO.


The only guy in the U20's team that I saw who looked bigger than prince Harry was Kitchener the younger (who I believe is 6'7''). Odd seeing the biggest guy on the pitch playing at 10.


Talking of size, there is an English lock playing for suburbs (an Auckland club) in the local Auckland competition, Dean Williams he is 7 foot tall. just google "Dean Williams rugby"

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Post by Cumbrian Fri 29 Jul 2016, 8:59 am

Bloody Hell, he is massive! It's a wonder Sale didn't spot it. He'd be Frak hard to miss...
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Post by propdavid_london Fri 29 Jul 2016, 12:02 pm

Dean Ryan joins the RFU setup - http://www.englandrugby.com/news/ryan-appointed-head-international-player-development/

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Post by hugehandoff Mon 01 Aug 2016, 4:08 pm

01 August 2016, 15:51

•Final EPS to be announced on 30 September
•Nathan Hughes included for first time

England Head Coach Eddie Jones has announced a provisional 45-man elite player squad (EPS) for England’s pre-season training camp in August.

The squad will meet at the Lensbury Hotel from 6-8 August and take part in training, planning meetings and individual reviews in preparation for the Old Mutual Wealth Series against South Africa, Fiji, Argentina and Australia later in the year.

Jones has named a number of uncapped players to attend the camp. Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers) and Nathan Hughes (Wasps) are included for the first time while Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins) and Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) have all previously spent time with England.

Following their series win in South Africa with England Saxons, Dan Robson (Wasps), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks) and Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby) will join the camp, as will Joe Marchant (Harlequins) and Will Evans (Leicester Tigers), who were part of the England team who won the World Rugby U20 Championship in June.

MOST DOMINANT TEAM IN THE WORLD

England will announce a final 45-man EPS on 30 September for the Old Mutual Wealth Series starting against South Africa at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday 12 November.

“This camp sets the scene for November,” said Jones. “It’s important to catch-up with the players prior to the start of the season and continue to put our plans in place.

“We’ll use this time to reset and review each player’s goals so they’re clear on what is expected of them between now and when we meet up again in October. It also gives us an opportunity to meet and assess some new players and ensure they are familiar with the England setup.

“The long-term strategy for England is to develop a side who can be the most dominant team in world rugby, so we’ve chosen a number of new faces to attend this camp on the form they have shown recently or the potential we see in them.

“There will always be opportunities for anyone playing consistently well in the Premiership at the start of the season to force their way into the EPS - the door is always open. Naturally players not included in this pre-season camp will be disappointed, but consistent high-level performances can change this."

HUGE CHALLENGE

England sealed a 3-0 whitewash of Australia in June and are now the second-ranked team in world rugby, however, Jones is expecting a "huge challenge" from their next opponents at Twickenham - South Africa.

“England has not beaten South Africa since 2006 and we’ve lost our last five games against the Springboks at Twickenham," said Jones. "Not a single player who will attend the pre-season camp has played in a side that has ever beaten South Africa.

“While we acknowledge that we’re moving in the right direction we also recognise that defeat is never far away. It’s important the players all keep trying to improve and push themselves to reach new standards in their game. We cannot afford to have any complacency in our approach to this Test.”

45 man provisional EPS for England’s August training camp

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)

Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)

Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)

Jamie George (Saracens)

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)

Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)

Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)

James Haskell (Wasps)

Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)

Nathan Hughes (Wasps)

Maro Itoje (Saracens)

George Kruis (Saracens)

Joe Launchbury (Wasps)

Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

Joe Marler (Harlequins)

Matt Mullan (Wasps)

Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)

Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)

Danny Care (Harlequins)

Elliot Daly (Wasps)

Owen Farrell (Saracens)

George Ford (Bath Rugby)

Alex Goode (Saracens)

Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)

Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)

Joe Marchant (Harlequins)

Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)

Dan Robson (Wasps)

Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)

Joe Simpson (Wasps)

Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)

Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)

Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)



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Post by propdavid_london Mon 01 Aug 2016, 4:21 pm

All looks very positive to me - Interesting to have Jonny May in there and Tom Youngs and Joe Simpson.
No Luther Burrell or Attwood and I had thought that EJ was looking at Mitch Lees at some point!
Well done to Marchant, Haley, Will Evans, Charlie Ewels, Dan Robson - who get invited up for U20s and Saxons performances.

Mike Williams? Who's that?

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Post by BamBam Mon 01 Aug 2016, 4:23 pm

Surprised Mallinder didn't make it in!

Williams is the Leicester blindside/lock

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 01 Aug 2016, 4:25 pm

Think I'm willing to accept Wade will never get a chance after being the most impressive wing in SA.

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Post by Welly Mon 01 Aug 2016, 4:28 pm

Mike Williams is a beast in defence honestly a tank, think Ewers but more physical and covers lock instead of 8, so prob the reason he is in.

Eddie certainly likes to bring through his youth players.
Ewels
Itoje
Genge
Hill
Evans
Marchant

all 19-22

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 01 Aug 2016, 4:30 pm

Long term succession planning - its good to see.

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Post by hugehandoff Mon 01 Aug 2016, 4:43 pm

Tigers web site shows Williams to be Zimbabwe born and bred and joined them in 2015. I also thought he might want a look at Mallinder, but then again he also wants a look at Manu (as well as Te'o)! Attwood is unlucky and probably misses out so EJ can have a look at some good young prospects.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 01 Aug 2016, 4:45 pm

Tom Youngs Headscratch

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Post by lostinwales Mon 01 Aug 2016, 4:49 pm

4 scrum halves, 2.5 10's - no Prince Harry. no Underhill.

In EJ we trust - going to be interesting to see how this squad changes.

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Post by Welly Mon 01 Aug 2016, 4:55 pm

hugehandoff wrote:Tigers web site shows Williams to be Zimbabwe born and bred and joined them in 2015. I also thought he might want a look at Mallinder, but then again he also wants a look at Manu (as well as Te'o)! Attwood is unlucky and probably misses out so EJ can have a look at some good young prospects.

Zimbabwe has a high percentage of white rugby players with English grandparents i think. Also been here since 2012/13 so has the 3 year residency.

So qualifies with the grandparent and 3 years.

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 01 Aug 2016, 4:58 pm

Yes, I missed the no Cips too.
Malinder will get his shot I am sure at some point - Does he qualify for the next U20s too or is he done with age grade now?
We knew Underhill wasn't going to be included.....got to keep the clubs sweet and stick to the rules. The future is clear for Underhill now...if you want to have a chance of playing for England then finish your studies and sign for a prem club.

He has also made it clear that this is a preliminary squad - not the AI squad. So its more about letting individuals know EJ's expectations if they have a future with England.
eg. Tom Youngs needs to learn how to hook, Jonny May needs to prove fitness, Ben Teo just needs to play a game for Worcester.
But, that's why I am surprised that Wade isn't there!
And what is the use of including an injured Joe Simpson!

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Post by Welly Mon 01 Aug 2016, 5:01 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Yes, I missed the no Cips too.  
Malinder will get his shot I am sure at some point - Does he qualify for the next U20s too or is he done with age grade now?
We knew Underhill wasn't going to be included.....got to keep the clubs sweet and stick to the rules.  The future is clear for Underhill now...if you want to have a chance of playing for England then finish your studies and sign for a prem club.

He has also made it clear that this is a preliminary squad - not the AI squad.  So its more about letting individuals know EJ's expectations if they have a future with England.  
eg. Tom Youngs needs to learn how to hook, Jonny May needs to prove fitness, Ben Teo just needs to play a game for Worcester.  
But, that's why I am surprised that Wade isn't there!
And what is the use of including an injured Joe Simpson!

TBF picking injured players make sense you can temporary drop them but you can't bring them up unless an injury happens elsewhere.

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Post by nathan Mon 01 Aug 2016, 5:20 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Tom Youngs Headscratch
Yahoo

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Post by nathan Mon 01 Aug 2016, 5:21 pm

Welly wrote: Mike Williams is a beast in defence honestly a tank, think Ewers but more physical and covers lock instead of 8, so prob the reason he is in.

Eddie certainly likes to bring through his youth players.
Ewels
Itoje
Genge
Hill
Evans
Marchant

all 19-22
Eve if they don't all get to play, it's still good to see. It helps the young players know where they need to be

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Post by maverickmak Mon 01 Aug 2016, 6:30 pm

Mike Williams was a beast for Tigers last year before he got a bad injury. One of the most physical players I've seen. If Jones wants a big, mean and nasty England pack, then he could do a lot worse that having a look at him.

Certainly a few surprises in that squad. Nice sprinkling of youngsters. Feel bad for Kvesic, but delighted for Evans.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 01 Aug 2016, 6:59 pm

https://youtu.be/FLnfGq4yhTE

That's a Mike Williams tackle from his Worcester days. Probably the race that made Tigers want to sign him.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 01 Aug 2016, 8:21 pm

I also think its interesting that Kvesic is missing as is Underhill but young Will Evans is in.

I know the Tigers fans rate Evans VERY highly (and they've some good one sin the past to judge on). I haven't seen a huge amount of him but obviously Eddie sees more in him than Kvesic.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 01 Aug 2016, 8:31 pm

Evans is miles away from an England cap but it'll be a good experience for him.

Underhill can't be called up GF.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 01 Aug 2016, 8:38 pm

AH is the exception clause not allowed? I haven't kept up to date with the whole palava.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 01 Aug 2016, 8:49 pm

The exception is if everybody is injured and he's the only player we have left basically.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 01 Aug 2016, 8:51 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Evans is miles away from an England cap but it'll be a good experience for him.

Underhill can't be called up GF.

Jones selection suggests otherwise. His inclusion is more as a development tool in the short term but Jones hasn't exactly gone in for a traditional openside previously which would suggest he sees something different in Evans that he wants in his team. Next summer's tour could see him make his debut even though he'd still qualify for the under 20s.

GF the exception clause us only allowed when injuries reduce England's options significantly.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 01 Aug 2016, 9:20 pm

Ah thanks for clearing that up for me gents.

Yeah I'm inclined to think that his selection is an important one...more than that of gaining some experience. As Sam says he hasn't picked an "ordthodox" 7 type before. He doesn't seem to rate Kvesic, Underhill seemingly unavailable and none others really standing out. And Evans was outstanding in the U20 final. He even made the sky team of the week despite all the summer international etc being played!

Also interesting Williams has been called up. Haskells replacement as the defensive beast??

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 02 Aug 2016, 4:52 am

Just to remind everyone, this group of 45 meets for a two day training camp in August, ahead of the Aviva season. As Jones says, this is mainly about setting individual targets for the year.

A final group of 45 is named in the first week of October. I don't know whether this could theoretically be an entirely different 45, or if there are limits to the number of changes, but the bulk will surely be the same. This gives Jones a chance to include form players from the beginning of the season, in place of original selections who are missing their training targets, or looking out of sorts.

There'll be another two day camp in October, and then the preparation time ahead of the Autumn internationals for a core group of 36

As far as I can tell, the same 45 players named in October meet for another 2 day camp in the first week of January.

Previously, the England coach has selected a new EPS in January but it sounds like the October selection is now good for the year. That seems to mean anyone having a standout season will need to rely on people getting injured to have a chance of a call-up.

I might be wrong, but there's nothing in the press release about naming a new squad in January.

By the end of the 2016/7 season, there'll have to be some flexibility, however. I suppose it's possible that a group of 45 could provide England's Lions players and leave enough to tour Argentina, but there'll probably need to be call-ups to take on the Pumas.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 02 Aug 2016, 5:01 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Evans is miles away from an England cap but it'll be a good experience for him.

Underhill can't be called up GF.

Jones selection suggests otherwise. His inclusion is more as a development tool in the short term but Jones hasn't exactly gone in for a traditional openside previously which would suggest he sees something different in Evans that he wants in his team. Next summer's tour could see him make his debut even though he'd still qualify for the under 20s.

GF the exception clause us only allowed when injuries reduce England's options significantly.

We don't really know what's going through Jones's mind with the Evans inclusion as he's clearly not ready. Maybe he just want's a closer at him or eyes some potential. Either way, he won't be turning out any time soon.

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Post by Cumbrian Tue 02 Aug 2016, 7:07 am

Moral questions about his selection aside, Hughes will improve the overall squad. He is a beast to have as backup.

I am really pleased to see Haley get some form of recognition, I reckon he will be the long term fullback for England, with Watson staying at wing.

I'm finding Marchant's inclusion slightly puzzling, don't get me a wrong the lad is talented but even off the top of my head at outside centre there is; Jon Joseph, Elliott Daly, Many Tuilagi and Henry Slade who can/ do play outside centre. Outside of them there are guys like Sam James who is at least as talented (in my opinion) but getting regular game time for Sale.
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Post by Poorfour Tue 02 Aug 2016, 9:08 am

Cumbrian, Joseph, Daly, Slade and Tuilagi are all in the squad, and while James has been getting more game time than Marchant, it's not just about AP time. Marchant has been on the radar through the age grade system. He was the most tactically mature player in the JRWC.

Eddie will have one eye on 2019, when Marchant could very easily be in the reckoning and like Evans has probably called him into the squad so that he can set him some targets. He will really have to impress to stay in the squad longer term. That said, he will have until the AIs as Quins' likely starting OC (George Lowe is recovering from hip surgery) in which to make his case.
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Post by Cumbrian Tue 02 Aug 2016, 10:08 am

Poorfour wrote:Cumbrian,  Joseph, Daly, Slade and Tuilagi are all in the squad, and while James has been getting more game time than Marchant, it's not just about AP time. Marchant has been on the radar through the age grade system. He was the most tactically mature player in the JRWC.

Eddie will have one eye on 2019, when Marchant could very easily be in the reckoning and like Evans has probably called him into the squad so that he can set him some targets. He will really have to impress to stay in the squad longer term. That said, he will have until the AIs as Quins' likely starting OC (George Lowe is recovering from hip surgery) in which to make his case.

Yes, I. am aware they are in the squad, it was the point I was trying to make. We have 3/4 relatively young and talented outside centres. I am not against Merchant's inclusion,  I just feel there are more pressing areas.

I meant Sam James of Sale when I said James. I get that Marchant has been identified from a long way off. however, I don't necessarily believe the he has shown enough to deserve to be ahead of more established young talents like Sam James or Nick Tompkins. On the other hand, I trust Jones' judgement too. So I'm puzzled all around. Very Happy


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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 02 Aug 2016, 10:13 am

Manu may struggle to get back in the side if all these kids make it good over the next season or two....

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 02 Aug 2016, 10:24 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Manu may struggle to get back in the side if all these kids make it good over the next season or two....

Depends which Manu we see. If it's the injury hampered Manu who isn't hitting his straps then he could quickly fall out the reckoning, if it's Manu back to his best with power, acceleration and a step then he walks into the first team. Fully fit and in form there aren't many better OCs period let alone in England. Big if with the form and fit though, not seen that in a couple of seasons.

Unless Jones is considering giving Marchant a look as both wing and centre. I'm sure he's seen as a like for like Joseph replacement as well which is a draw seeing as we've found a nice balance in the midfield currently.

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Post by beshocked Tue 02 Aug 2016, 10:29 am

No Mallinder seems a shocking oversight.

Centres still seem a bit of a weak area. Some poor selections there.

Poor Wade too.

Most overrated winger in England makes it..... picard

World's smallest hooker makes it too..... picard

Joe Simpson.... picard Must be a better performing young 9 who could have been picked instead.

Quite a few poor selections but still a strong squad. Just got to hope certain players don't get injured.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 02 Aug 2016, 10:52 am

Thinking about it...Rugbyfan is probably right and maybe we shouldn't be looking too much in to this selection.

Others like Kvesic have already been given their orders for improvement etc...now he's got a chance to give the likes of Evans and others their format. And it shows that they are being watched which can only help to get the lads motivated and progressing.

It could well be a different squad come October.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue 02 Aug 2016, 10:58 am

beshocked wrote:No Mallinder seems a shocking oversight.

Centres still seem a bit of a weak area. Some poor selections there.

Poor Wade too.

Most overrated winger in England makes it..... picard

World's smallest hooker makes it too..... picard

Joe Simpson....  picard Must be a better performing young 9 who could have been picked instead.

Quite a few poor selections but still a strong squad. Just got to hope certain players don't get injured.

And to top it off, bloody Goode is still there!!!

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