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England 45-man EPS

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Post by robbo277 Sun 26 Jun 2016, 3:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

Post updated for Eddie Jones' training squad.

From EnglandRugby.com


  • Final EPS to be announced on 30 September
  • Nathan Hughes included for first time


England Head Coach Eddie Jones has announced a provisional 45-man elite player squad (EPS) for England’s pre-season training camp in August.

The squad will meet at the Lensbury Hotel from 6-8 August and take part in training, planning meetings and individual reviews in preparation for the Old Mutual Wealth Series against South Africa, Fiji, Argentina and Australia later in the year.

Jones has named a number of uncapped players to attend the camp. Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers) and Nathan Hughes (Wasps) are included for the first time while Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins) and Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) have all previously spent time with England.

Following their series win in South Africa with England Saxons, Dan Robson (Wasps), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks) and Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby) will join the camp, as will Joe Marchant (Harlequins) and Will Evans (Leicester Tigers), who were part of the England team who won the World Rugby U20 Championship in June.

MOST DOMINANT TEAM IN THE WORLD
England will announce a final 45-man EPS on 30 September for the Old Mutual Wealth Series starting against South Africa at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday 12 November.

“This camp sets the scene for November,” said Jones. “It’s important to catch-up with the players prior to the start of the season and continue to put our plans in place.

“We’ll use this time to reset and review each player’s goals so they’re clear on what is expected of them between now and when we meet up again in October. It also gives us an opportunity to meet and assess some new players and ensure they are familiar with the England setup.

“The long-term strategy for England is to develop a side who can be the most dominant team in world rugby, so we’ve chosen a number of new faces to attend this camp on the form they have shown recently or the potential we see in them.

“There will always be opportunities for anyone playing consistently well in the Premiership at the start of the season to force their way into the EPS - the door is always open. Naturally players not included in this pre-season camp will be disappointed, but consistent high-level performances can change this."

HUGE CHALLENGE
England sealed a 3-0 whitewash of Australia in June and are now the second-ranked team in world rugby, however, Jones is expecting a "huge challenge" from their next opponents at Twickenham - South Africa.

“England has not beaten South Africa since 2006 and we’ve lost our last five games against the Springboks at Twickenham," said Jones. "Not a single player who will attend the pre-season camp has played in a side that has ever beaten South Africa.

“While we acknowledge that we’re moving in the right direction we also recognise that defeat is never far away. It’s important the players all keep trying to improve and push themselves to reach new standards in their game. We cannot afford to have any complacency in our approach to this Test.”

45 man provisional EPS for England’s August training camp

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)

Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)

Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)

Jamie George (Saracens)

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)

Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)

Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)

James Haskell (Wasps)

Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  

Nathan Hughes (Wasps)

Maro Itoje (Saracens)

George Kruis (Saracens)

Joe Launchbury (Wasps)

Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

Joe Marler (Harlequins)

Matt Mullan (Wasps)

Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)

Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)

Danny Care (Harlequins)

Elliot Daly (Wasps)

Owen Farrell (Saracens)

George Ford (Bath Rugby)

Alex Goode (Saracens)

Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)

Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)

Joe Marchant (Harlequins)

Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)

Dan Robson (Wasps)

Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)

Joe Simpson (Wasps)

Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)

Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)

Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Original post:
While the dust settles on the most successful trip down South for an England team since 2003, Eddie Jones will have to start thinking about naming his first EPS squad that is completely his.

You would assume the 23 from that second test would form the bedrock of the squad, but then what about the other 10 spots? There are big question marks over:

Joe Marler
Undisputed first choice under Lancaster and just about held off Mako Vunipola during the Six Nations, but he's been hauled in front of the disciplinary committee three times since March and made himself unavailable for selection. Mako Vunipola has played very well and probably has the starting spot for the first Autumn International, but do you stick with Mullan as back-up or do you bring back Marler, assuming he's available?

Teimana Harrison and the backrow
So Robshaw, Haskell, Vunipola and Clifford will all be in the EPS, but does Harrison come back from being subbed after 30 minutes? Beaumont is another option, as is Nathan Hughes now - but does he come straight into an EPS?

Centre options
Manu and Te'o were named in the initial squad for the Australia tour, with Burrell filling in for Manu. Burrell overtook Te'o and started the first test, but Burrell and the "Bosher" gameplan were both ditched after 30 minutes of the first test. Will Burrell recover? Did Jones not like what he saw from Te'o when he got into camp? And does Manu come back in? Do we use any of them?

We also have Slade, who toured and didn't get on the pitch or from left-field our best two under-20s were Mallinder and Marchant, do either of these come into consideration?

Saxons
The Saxons won their two "test" series in South Africa. Taylor, Attwood, Kvesic, Robson, Cipriani and Hill will all come into consideration.

Potential EPS
Forwards (19)
Hartley, George, Cowan-Dickie
Mako Vunipola, Cole, Marler, Hill, Mullan, Brookes
Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes
Haskell, Robshaw, Clifford, Hughes
Vunipola, Beaumont

Backs (14)
Youngs, Care, Robson
Ford, Farrell, Mallinder
Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly
Yarde, Nowell, Watson
Brown, Goode

Who would you pick in your EPS if you were Eddie Jones?


Last edited by robbo277 on Tue 02 Aug 2016, 6:31 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Updating post for new developments)

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Post by Cumbrian Thu 04 Aug 2016, 2:22 pm

beshocked wrote:Of course people thought 36 and Webber were great players too.... we know how that worked out.... Thought that Lancaster picked the right players in the RWC too......

Doing well in training doesn't mean a player has played well at international level. Seems to be the May logic. World class in training.... OK

Defensively poor, headless chicken running sideways, failing to score with a try line beckoning, poor finisher.

34% try strike rate is international class these days?  I must be alone to see the glaringly obvious poor finishing and defending then.

One blinkered fan still thinks Lancaster was a great coach.

Just putting May's strike rate in perspective - it's by far the worst of the England wingers.

Nowell's is 50% Watson's 50% I think Yarde's is over 50%. Ashton's is marginally under 50%

Wade doesn't really count but in matches like Saxons, Barbarians that he's played in he's scored a bucket load.

May is overrated, simple as that. He's not strong defensively, his finishing is the worst. The reason why May is so highly rated is simple - it's because he's fast.


Goode isn't overrated, we all know Goode's weaknesses that he needs to work on. May's weaknesses in contrast are ignored.


Thing is 34% strike rate isn't great, but it isn't horrendous either, when placed into context. The context being some of the backlines that May has played in. I'd just like to put some other selected stats here.

JP Petersen (34%) 24 tries in 69 Tests
Horacio Agulla (9%) 6 tries in 60 Tests
Alex Cuthbert (35%) 15 tries in 42 Tests
Tommy Bowe (44%) 30 in 67 Tests
Yoann Huget (17%) 7 tries in 41 tests
Luke Fitgerald (11%) 4 tries in 34 tests
Andrew Trimble (25%) 17 tries in 66 tests
Lucas Amarasino (14%) 7 Tries in 50 tests
Rob Horne (12%) 4 tries in 32 tests
Joe Tomane (29%) 5 tries in 17 tests
Charles Piutau (25%) 4 tries in 16 tests

I believe these guys have played on the wing a bit too...

Ben Smith (New Zealand) (38%) 21 in 55 Tests
Adam Ashley-Cooper (32%) 37 tries in 114 Tests

You're going to get guys with amazing stats like Julian Savea, but out of context strike rate means nothing (context being that the All Blacks as a team thwap pretty much everyone they play against and create twice the number of chances).

Is there room for improvement from May? Definitely. However, I can't see that he is as bad as you are making out.
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Post by Cumbrian Thu 04 Aug 2016, 2:40 pm

Looking back through his 19 games, he's played with Brad Barritt at outside centre twice, Sam Burgess at inside centre twice and Brad Barritt at inside centre 4 times. Not to mention the 5 times Billy Twelvetrees and Burrell teamed up in the centres to take turns at throwing the ball at each-other's shoe laces. This is all to the backdrop of when England were playing a forward dominated territory game (with under-powered forwards). When you think about it, it is a miracle May even got a pass let alone a try...
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 04 Aug 2016, 2:44 pm

beshocked wrote:propdavid london Easter has indeed big a huge asset for Quins but it's good for Quins to move on from Easter. I think Easter lasted so long

king carlos when looking at the options in that format the squad looks more promising.

Especially when considering that the likes of Simpson,T.Youngs and Teo are unlikely to be in the 23 in the AIs.

LH,hooker lock and no 8 in particular look well stocked.


12 and wing look like weaknesses IMO. 7 is an area that with Haskell injured is still a question mark.

Poorfour not every no 8 needs to be a Billy but even when you know what's coming he's hard to stop and by focussing on him you make space for others.

no 7 & 1/2 doesn't always come down to personal preference. There aren't shed loads of good options in all positions as you put it who would do well for England.

Some yes but not all. Webber is not a top class hooker and I doubt he will ever be, Webber does have staunch supporters like yourself though.

Sadly not every player is good enough for international level and not every player excels. It's important to identify the best and give them the opportunities.

E.g. Mallinder whose missed out of the 45. To be honest I think most on here would agree Mallinder should be in the 45.

It is wrong to ignore foolish decisions just because the overall squad looks good.

As for your Easter comment, Easter was poor in the RWC. As soon as Billy got injured, England were brutally exposed at no 8 as having a lack of depth.

With Hughes coming in there should be less reliance on Billy now.

Not sure what I've done to become a staunch supporter of Webber. Mallinder will be great, he's still learning and will get better.

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Post by Cumbrian Thu 04 Aug 2016, 2:52 pm

Also, where are the stats to say he is defensively weak? I've had a quick nose and England don't seem to concede significantly more points/tries when May is in the team.
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Post by beshocked Thu 04 Aug 2016, 3:56 pm

Cumbrian and yet somehow in that 2014 6 nations the likes of Care, Burrell and Brown filled their boots..... I think even Farrell scored.

England played quite well in that 6 nations bar the 1st game, the wingers were the biggest disappointment in that tournament.

It was as if England played with a backline of 4 players with the other 3 going missing in action.

How many of those wingers are realistically starters for their country now? Reeling off a list of other players with poor strike rates just shows that they aren't that great either. If most of those Irish players are contenders are starters now just shows how poor their stock is.

Let's compare Agulla to Imhoff for example..... Imhoff has a strike rate of over 50%.

Habana - strike rate over 50% compared to Pietersen.

You can't compare utility backs to out and out wingers.

Of course strike of 50% plus is very good but 34% is a big drop.

no 7 & 1/2 supporting Webber's selection in the RWC of course.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 04 Aug 2016, 3:59 pm

I imagine the strike rate of wingers during SL's reign on the whole wasn't high. The ball rarely got past 12 with Barritt often deployed there.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 04 Aug 2016, 4:08 pm

By supporting it you mean that I personally wouldn't have picked him beshocked? Is it your memory or understanding which is failing you? By all means though, back it up!

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Post by beshocked Thu 04 Aug 2016, 4:25 pm

If you wouldn't pick him then why on earth would you support and justify it?


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Post by lostinwales Thu 04 Aug 2016, 4:27 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I imagine the strike rate of wingers during SL's reign on the whole wasn't high. The ball rarely got past 12 with Barritt often deployed there.

I would bet most of the tries scored in the backs came from 13 - Manu, Burrell and Joseph

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Post by Cumbrian Thu 04 Aug 2016, 4:37 pm

beshocked wrote:Cumbrian and yet somehow in that 2014 6 nations the likes of Care, Burrell and Brown filled their boots..... I think even Farrell scored.

England played quite well in that 6 nations bar the 1st game, the wingers were the biggest disappointment in that tournament.

It was as if England played with a  backline of 4 players with the other 3 going missing in action.

How many of those wingers are realistically starters for their country now? Reeling off a list of other players with poor strike rates just shows that they aren't that great either. If most of those Irish players are contenders are starters now just shows how poor their stock is.

Let's compare Agulla to Imhoff for example..... Imhoff has a strike rate of over 50%.

Habana - strike rate over 50% compared to Pietersen.

You can't compare utility backs to out and out wingers.

Of course strike of 50% plus is very good but 34% is a big drop.

no 7 & 1/2 supporting Webber's selection in the RWC of course.

The 2014 Six nations is a bit of a red herring when you consider half of the tries we scored were in the last game against Italy, who have conceded 7 or 8 tries in their last match of the last three Six Nations.

You compare Agulla to Imoff and yes Imoff has a good strike rate BUT Agulla has 60 caps.  Similarly you dismiss a 60+ cap Springbok because his stats don't compare to Habanna's (who is a one in a generation player).  You simply don't get that many caps for the Pumas/ Springboks by being crap.  In fact I chose the wingers on the list because they are or recently were the first choice players.  Aside from that, look at the number of caps they have gained, it's not like they are one cap wonders.  

I create the list because you just have to look at the names to know that (most of them) are good international wingers, despite not having the most impressive strike rates.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 04 Aug 2016, 4:41 pm

beshocked wrote:If you wouldn't pick him then why on earth would you support and justify it?


Didn't support but I do generally try to consider why a certain choice has been made. For instance I would have included Wade but I have tried to think of why he hasn't been.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 04 Aug 2016, 4:58 pm

Back on the merry-go-round. There is an argument over the exact role of a winger. And that, like for favourite no.8's can be very subjective. What I would suggest is that at club level there is more of an emphasis on try scoring ability. At international level maybe the balance is as much towards other aspects, including defense. Ashton was particularly good at scoring tries but other areas of his game were weak. When he wasn't able to get into the kind of try scoring positions he is so good at exploiting he looked poor.

May is more rounded and his pace is truly exceptional. His kick chase in particular is very good. I have said this before but that game we lost a couple of years back vs Ireland after he had been dropped his absence was very notable. Not least because Ford was kicking a lot, badly. But he was kicking to the kinds of places May would have got to but on that day nobody did because nobody was following up and nobody could have got there except for May.

As for defense who is perfect? I know BS has blamed May for getting beaten by Matawalu in the RWC. But plenty of other good players have also been beaten by the Fijian, but I doubt many if any could run him down and catch him like May did, having to turn 1st in the process.

Its also worth pointing out that if you were to look at most spectacular tries scored in the AP over the last, say, 5 years the two names that would probably come up most often would be Wade and May.

Eddie knows what he wants, and he obviously wants May involved.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 04 Aug 2016, 8:14 pm

Is May still as quick after his injury?

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Post by king_carlos Thu 04 Aug 2016, 9:10 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is May still as quick after his injury?

If the surgeon pinned his ears back after fixing his knee he might be even quicker... Tumbleweed

With a knee injury no one will really know until he's back on the pitch though I'd guess. His pace is most of his game so if it's gone he'll be in real trouble making much of an impact.

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Post by Poorfour Thu 04 Aug 2016, 10:51 pm

Wade and Haley were both very impressive on tour, including defensively. Against South Africa A, that's a reasonable benchmark. Although SA have plenty of problems, they were certainly challenging the line.

Ditto Yarde in Australia - but then everyone put in a big shift in defence.

I fundamentally disagree with beshocked's philosophy that you pick the best individuals and mold the tactics to their strengths. Smaller nations have to do it perforce because of lack of players, but England have enough depth that they have the option to pick the best fit to the desired tactics. Even if that means not picking the "form" player, the overall strength of the team can still be higher if the rest of the squad don't have to compensate for a player who doesn't quite fit the system.

That seems to be the way Eddie is going. Some players, notably Robshaw and Haskell, will benefit from it. Others - Goode and Ashton among their number - won't unless they can adapt to what's asked of them.

As for Mallinder, I don't think anyone would deny that he should get a shot at international rugby before too long, but I am not baying for his inclusion just yet. He's young and more AP game time won't hurt him, and I'd have thought that in the short term seeing if Tuilagi, Slade or Te'o can fill the 12 slot is higher priority.
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Post by ChequeredJersey Fri 05 Aug 2016, 1:05 am

Agree on Mallinder but given the options at 13 (including that it's Tuilagi's current known best position, Slade has played there more than 12 and Teo's best form is also there), it does seem weird that the admittedly talented and exciting Marchant has been picked ahead of him
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Post by Cumbrian Fri 05 Aug 2016, 8:19 am

Poorfour wrote:Wade and Haley were both very impressive on tour, including defensively. Against South Africa A, that's a reasonable benchmark. Although SA have plenty of problems, they were certainly challenging the line.

Ditto Yarde in Australia - but then everyone put in a big shift in defence.

I fundamentally disagree with beshocked's philosophy that you pick the best individuals and mold the tactics to their strengths. Smaller nations have to do it perforce  because of lack of players, but England have enough depth that they have the option to pick the best fit to the desired tactics. Even if that means not picking the "form" player, the overall strength of the team can still be higher if the rest of the squad don't have to compensate for a player who doesn't quite fit the system.

That seems to be the way Eddie is going. Some players, notably Robshaw and Haskell, will benefit from it. Others - Goode and Ashton among their number - won't unless they can adapt to what's asked of them.

As for Mallinder, I don't think anyone would deny that he should get a shot at international rugby before too long, but I am not baying for his inclusion just yet. He's young and more AP game time won't hurt him, and I'd have thought that in the short term seeing if Tuilagi, Slade or Te'o can fill the 12 slot is higher priority.

I keep banging on about Haley, but I honestly believe that he has a shot at being England's starting fullback within a couple of years. The options that we have had for the last five or so years aren't getting any younger Mike Brown and Ben Foden are both north of 30 and Chris Pennell seems cast aside. I keep waiting for Nowell or Watson to move to fullback, but I don't see any signs of it happening at the moment (both are first choice wingers anyway).

Options from this viewpoint are thin on the ground (which is one of the reasons I believe Goode is still in the squad). So who else is there that is getting regular game time? If you look at the clubs a lot of the starting fullbacks are NEQ. I can think of Simon Hammersley, Matt Tait, Rob Miller (although le Roux will put paid to that).
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Post by lostinwales Fri 05 Aug 2016, 9:40 am

king_carlos wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Is May still as quick after his injury?

If the surgeon pinned his ears back after fixing his knee he might be even quicker...  Tumbleweed

With a knee injury no one will really know until he's back on the pitch though I'd guess. His pace is most of his game so if it's gone he'll be in real trouble making much of an impact.

This is always the issue with injuries. Pace is May's 'point of difference'. I'd bet if its reduced he'll still be a decent AP player but not an international.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 05 Aug 2016, 9:53 am

Totally Agree LIW. Hes good...but its his pace that really makes him stand out. Im pretty sure he wouldn't be the same player.

But then the majority of wingers would fall under this category.... Its a "one to watch" over the first few games this season.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 05 Aug 2016, 10:59 am

Just heading back after a week's holiday and interested to see that most of the chat seems to centre around Jonny May.

I have to assume that "Oh my god not tom Youngs" has been done to death.


With this 45 I find it quiote interesting how few of the guiys who were on the Saxon's tour were called up. So we see the likes of Williams and Evans rather than Ewers and Kvesic.

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Post by doctor_grey Fri 05 Aug 2016, 11:12 am

Hopefully May can get his speed back. Really depends on the specifics of the injury, how the procedure was performed, and then all is on him for the recovery.

Regarding Ewers, does it start to seem as if he will be in that group of very good players that for some reasons just can't crack the national team?

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Post by lostinwales Fri 05 Aug 2016, 11:14 am

LondonTiger wrote:Just heading back after a week's holiday and interested to see that most of the chat seems to centre around Jonny May.

I have to assume that "Oh my god not tom Youngs" has been done to death.


With this 45 I find it quiote interesting how few of the guiys who were on the Saxon's tour were called up. So we see the likes of Williams and Evans rather than Ewers and Kvesic.

True. Considering it was also a successful Saxon's tour. But then it was a good summer for English rugby Smile

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 05 Aug 2016, 11:26 am

LondonTiger wrote:Just heading back after a week's holiday and interested to see that most of the chat seems to centre around Jonny May.

I have to assume that "Oh my god not tom Youngs" has been done to death.


With this 45 I find it quiote interesting how few of the guiys who were on the Saxon's tour were called up. So we see the likes of Williams and Evans rather than Ewers and Kvesic.

As I said previously LT, the core of the squad is the same as the OZ tour etc. Its mostly the fringe and youngsters who have changed.

Those on the Saxons will have their instructions how to improve (which Jones seems to put huge value on) and with this squad...more of the "fringe players" get the Jones treatment.

Theres a new squad or gathering in October...so I don't think too much should be placed on this meeting.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 05 Aug 2016, 11:27 am

doctor_grey wrote:Hopefully May can get his speed back.  Really depends on the specifics of the injury, how the procedure was performed, and then all is on him for the recovery.  

Regarding Ewers, does it start to seem as if he will be in that group of very good players that for some reasons just can't crack the national team?

For Ewers see Matt Garvey

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Post by beshocked Fri 05 Aug 2016, 11:56 am

Poorfour wrote:Wade and Haley were both very impressive on tour, including defensively. Against South Africa A, that's a reasonable benchmark. Although SA have plenty of problems, they were certainly challenging the line.

Ditto Yarde in Australia - but then everyone put in a big shift in defence.

I fundamentally disagree with beshocked's philosophy that you pick the best individuals and mold the tactics to their strengths. Smaller nations have to do it perforce  because of lack of players, but England have enough depth that they have the option to pick the best fit to the desired tactics. Even if that means not picking the "form" player, the overall strength of the team can still be higher if the rest of the squad don't have to compensate for a player who doesn't quite fit the system.

That seems to be the way Eddie is going. Some players, notably Robshaw and Haskell, will benefit from it. Others - Goode and Ashton among their number - won't unless they can adapt to what's asked of them.

As for Mallinder, I don't think anyone would deny that he should get a shot at international rugby before too long, but I am not baying for his inclusion just yet. He's young and more AP game time won't hurt him, and I'd have thought that in the short term seeing if Tuilagi, Slade or Te'o can fill the 12 slot is higher priority.

Poorfour of course you have to have some balance to a side but getting the best out of players is important. Ford has been helped by having responsibilities taken off his shoulders and given to Farrell. Allows Ford to focus on his strengths and allows Farrell to utilise his - goalkicking. England needed Farrell's accurate goalkicking vs the Aussies.

Haskell has more free rein because others have taken more of the breakdown duties.

Generally the best individuals do have the skillsets to adapt if given the right direction. It's up to the coaches to do that.

There needs to be sufficient set piece proficiency, sufficient ball carriers, sufficient breakdown ability - of course there has to be balance but the best individuals can be accommodated in the right set up.


I still do not understand why Teo is hot property now, he's unproven and a non English oldish option.

In contrast Hughes might not be English but he's put in the time in the AP to become EQ and has built his reputation as one of the top no 8s in England now. As far as ability goes I have no doubts about picking Hughes and by the rules he deserves to be in the 45.

I do believe that form should be important in international selection unlike some other posters.

I find it bizarre we have one of the most talented backs - Harry Mallinder who just captained the U20s to a junior RWC title and he's been overlooked, instead a unproven non English centre whose no spring chicken has been selected instead.

I know they'll be the normal yadda yadda, he'll make it in time... be patient blah blah, waiting can potentially lose you games and prevents players gaining experience earlier.

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Post by yappysnap Fri 05 Aug 2016, 1:38 pm

OH MY GOD TOM YOUNGS!

Whhhyyyyyyyyyy?!



Just for LT

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 05 Aug 2016, 1:58 pm

beshocked wrote:

I find it bizarre we have one of the most talented backs - Harry Mallinder who just captained the U20s to a junior RWC title and he's been overlooked, instead a unproven non English centre whose no spring chicken has been selected instead.

Whilst im loath to call him one of our most talented backs just yet, I completely agree with the idea than Ben T'eo is selected ahead of him. Especially when it looks like T'eo is a stop gap himself. He's not going to get ahead of Farrell, or I think Slade so Mallinder should have been there.

Having said that, ill echo Poorfours statement...Mallinder is not in a bad position at the moment. And he just needs to focus on Nailing the Saints starting 10 or 12 spot.

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Post by funnyExiledScot Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:39 pm

yappysnap wrote:OH MY GOD TOM YOUNGS!

Whhhyyyyyyyyyy?!



Just for LT


He gives the other hookers confidence?

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Post by beshocked Fri 05 Aug 2016, 2:49 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
beshocked wrote:

I find it bizarre we have one of the most talented backs - Harry Mallinder who just captained the U20s to a junior RWC title and he's been overlooked, instead a unproven non English centre whose no spring chicken has been selected instead.

Whilst im loath to call him one of our most talented backs just yet, I completely agree with the idea than Ben T'eo is selected ahead of him. Especially when it looks like T'eo is a stop gap himself. He's not going to get ahead of Farrell, or I think Slade so Mallinder should have been there.

Having said that, ill echo Poorfours statement...Mallinder is not in a bad position at the moment. And he just needs to focus on Nailing the Saints starting 10 or 12 spot.

Perhaps I should have said one of our brightest prospects in the backs, instead of most talented.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 05 Aug 2016, 3:04 pm

thumbsup Now that I will agree with....

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 05 Aug 2016, 3:05 pm

And curious...do you think he should focus on 12?

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Post by beshocked Fri 05 Aug 2016, 4:07 pm

Yes most definitely. I still think that the 12 shirt needs a long term solution, Farrell has done better than I thought he would but I still think having a 6,5 monster like Mallinder who can kick and show a bit of playmaking nous is the best long term option.

I also think he's got the mentality to succeed that someone like 36 doesn't. 36 just didn't seem to have the consistency/belief IMO.

Think some players need to have some psychology training. On the course I'd send the likes of Cipriani,Simpson,36 and Ashton. All have different things they need to sort out in their head.

It's a different sport but at look at the difference in Murray now that he's got Lendl back as his tennis coach. He's got his mental edge back IMO. I thought he'd win Wimbledon before the tournament began, even before Djokovic went out.

Some sports people have the talent just not the temperament, some have temperament but not necessarily the talent. Very rare sports people have both.

Ashton does have an attitude problem he needs to sort out for example and still doesn't fully commit to tackles.

H. Mallinder I think has both talent and temperament, just needs to be brought on properly.

Itoje clearly has both too. For such a young man he plays like a seasoned international.

It's funny that Mallinder is another son of an English coach. Ford Jr and Farrell Jr haven't done badly so far have they?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 05 Aug 2016, 10:55 pm

Yeah but I think the key for Mallinder this season is to become a first choice player and dominate ganes. The real top players do that young. And as you have correctly said Itoje did that.

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Post by DaveM Sat 06 Aug 2016, 12:22 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:Agree on Mallinder but given the options at 13 (including that it's Tuilagi's current known best position, Slade has played there more than 12 and Teo's best form is also there), it does seem weird that the admittedly talented and exciting Marchant has been picked ahead of him

I can understand EJ thinking that Mallinder isn't ready for international rugby. What I don't get is why EJ has chosen to not allow the England coaches, including himself, to work directly on Mallinder's weaknesses.

Mallinder feels far more likely to play for the senior side in 2017 than Marchant does. If I were to bring in another 13 to have a look at I'd have gone for Tompkins, who I feel is a couple of years ahead of Marchant in terms of development.

I also think Cipriani has been unlucky. He looked to do all that was asked of him in SA, and appeared to have taken a leadership role in a squad which did really well. I get the impression EJ just doesn't see him fitting in.

Williams being ahead of Ewers is another selection I'd see as contentious.

I'm pleased to see Haley though. I can imagine him featuring in the 6 Nations.

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Post by nlpnlp Sat 06 Aug 2016, 12:35 am

I am sorry but did you actually watch the Saxon games in South Africa? If so you would have seen Cipriani constantly dropping off tackles, being bumped off and just not making a real effort to drop 'his man'. If you have watched England since EJ has taken over, you would have seen Ford making hits and trying to dislodge the ball and holding up his opponent until bigger help came. Cipriani simply did not do that. I am a Sale fan and have watched Cirpriani over the last 3 years and know what he can do in attack and know that when he wants to he can tackle. But in South Africa unfortunately tackling was off the menu and so his England career is over for EJ.

As I have said a few times before I just don't understand the Mallinder love. Yes at u20 level he looks a man against boys, but when you step up to senior level you are playing Jamie Roberts, Sonnny Bill Williams, etc who are all as big as him or bigger and harder. He needs to prove himself for Northampton first before he deserves a place in the full England squad. Itoje did that for Saracens.

Can't argue with your point on Ewers - I think he just needs the opportunity at the top level to show what he can do. But EJ seems to be including quite a few young players with potential who are not ready for the full team but who could be in the next 2 or so years to try and inspire them and show them where they need to go.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 06 Aug 2016, 2:02 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Hopefully May can get his speed back.  Really depends on the specifics of the injury, how the procedure was performed, and then all is on him for the recovery.  

Regarding Ewers, does it start to seem as if he will be in that group of very good players that for some reasons just can't crack the national team?

For Ewers see Matt Garvey
I had to think on that one for a bit, but I agree. Good comparison.

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Post by greenandpleasantland Sat 06 Aug 2016, 9:57 am

The big challenge for Harry this season is to make the 12 jersey his own at Saints. To do this though he will need to keep his running lines hard and straight as he does have a tendency to drift and crab and eat up space for his outside backs

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 06 Aug 2016, 11:47 am

nlpnlp wrote:I am sorry but did you actually watch the Saxon games in South Africa?  If so you would have seen Cipriani constantly dropping off tackles, being bumped off and just not making a real effort to drop 'his man'.  If you have watched England since EJ has taken over, you would have seen Ford making hits and trying to dislodge the ball and holding up his opponent until bigger help came.  Cipriani simply did not do that.  I am a Sale fan and have watched Cirpriani over the last 3 years and know what he can do in attack and know that when he wants to he can tackle.  But in South Africa unfortunately tackling was off the menu and so his England career is over for EJ.

As I have said a few times before I just don't understand the Mallinder love.  Yes at u20 level he looks a man against boys, but when you step up to senior level you are playing Jamie Roberts, Sonnny Bill Williams, etc who are all as big as him or bigger and harder.  He needs to prove himself for Northampton first before he deserves a place in the full England squad.  Itoje did that for Saracens.

Can't argue with your point on Ewers - I think he just needs the opportunity at the top level to show what he can do.  But EJ seems to be including quite a few young players with potential who are not ready for the full team but who could be in the next 2 or so years to try and inspire them and show them where they need to go.  

No one expects Harry to be in the England side, probably not in the 35, but of all the U20 brought into the squad for the experience and to have a look, he looked the obvious candidate. He is far closer to being ready to fit into the England squad than any of the U20s forwards chosen, Evans and Ewels, they are stature wise very much men against boys and there for their potential. He is probably ahead of Marchant in terms of playing regular AP games and as we have 13s aplenty I am not sure why he is there. He is talented but offers little different to Joseph or Daly. In terms of what is required of a 12, Harry can catch, tackle, battering ram, break with pace etc. and has some very deft touches for such a big bloke. The only one who comes close is Farrell and he struggles with the latter 2, that extra 3" and 2 stone make a big difference.

I can see him playing regularly at 12 for Saints this season with Burrell at 13, he has looked his best there in recent seasons.

From a selfish point of view, the longer he stays out of the EPS, the better for Saints.
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Post by LondonTiger Sat 06 Aug 2016, 7:49 pm

[quote="WELL-PAST-IT"]
nlpnlp wrote:
I can see him playing regularly at 12 for Saints this season with Burrell at 13, he has looked his best there in recent seasons.

IIRC Harry's first appearances for saints were at FB and he ended the season there too. I have hear papa Jim mention a few times how strong he is there.

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Post by Poorfour Sat 06 Aug 2016, 8:07 pm

I find it hard to believe that Mallinder won't have been set very clear targets by the England coaches. He's part of the U20 setup and will be well enough known to the coaches.

As for Marchant, he's been regarded as one of the high potential juniors for a while, and while he isn't yet starting regularly for Quins, I suspect Eddie is interested in him precisely because he's a very direct replacement for Joseph, in a way that Daly or Slade aren't. He can also play across the backline (I believe he's played everywhere from 10-15), which makes him a useful bench option.
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Post by doctor_grey Sat 06 Aug 2016, 9:34 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
nlpnlp wrote:I am sorry but did you actually watch the Saxon games in South Africa?  If so you would have seen Cipriani constantly dropping off tackles, being bumped off and just not making a real effort to drop 'his man'.  If you have watched England since EJ has taken over, you would have seen Ford making hits and trying to dislodge the ball and holding up his opponent until bigger help came.  Cipriani simply did not do that.  I am a Sale fan and have watched Cirpriani over the last 3 years and know what he can do in attack and know that when he wants to he can tackle.  But in South Africa unfortunately tackling was off the menu and so his England career is over for EJ.

As I have said a few times before I just don't understand the Mallinder love.  Yes at u20 level he looks a man against boys, but when you step up to senior level you are playing Jamie Roberts, Sonnny Bill Williams, etc who are all as big as him or bigger and harder.  He needs to prove himself for Northampton first before he deserves a place in the full England squad.  Itoje did that for Saracens.

Can't argue with your point on Ewers - I think he just needs the opportunity at the top level to show what he can do.  But EJ seems to be including quite a few young players with potential who are not ready for the full team but who could be in the next 2 or so years to try and inspire them and show them where they need to go.  

No one expects Harry to be in the England side, probably not in the 35, but of all the U20 brought into the squad for the experience and to have a look, he looked the obvious candidate. He is far closer to being ready to fit into the England squad than any of the U20s forwards chosen, Evans and Ewels, they are stature wise very much men against boys and there for their potential. He is probably ahead of Marchant in terms of playing regular AP games and as we have 13s aplenty I am not sure why he is there. He is talented but offers little different to Joseph or Daly. In terms of what is required of a 12, Harry can catch, tackle, battering ram, break with pace etc. and has some very deft touches for such a big bloke. The only one who comes close is Farrell and he struggles with the latter 2, that extra 3" and 2 stone make a big difference.

I can see him playing regularly at 12 for Saints this season with Burrell at 13, he has looked his best there in recent seasons.

From a selfish point of view, the longer he stays out of the EPS, the better for Saints.
Agree on all points.  I was hoping Prince Harry (future England and Lions captain) would not be selected for the EPS.  Better for Saints, of course, but I think also better for Prince Harry.  In addition to his game time at 12, I am pretty sure he will fill in at 10 and 15, too.  And that is good so he can round out his game.  And Saints should have Tom Stephenson and Georgie Pisi to back up Prince Harry and Burrell.  I think Burrell is really missing something and it is a possibility Pisi gets more consistent game time than Burrell by mid-season.  Not a bad place for Saints mid-field.

Prince Harry had to play fullback in some of those matches last season simply because there wasn't a better option.  Also, Jim was a fullback and is likely partial to the family lineage, at least a wee bit.

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Post by DaveM Sat 06 Aug 2016, 10:34 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

No one expects Harry to be in the England side, probably not in the 35, but of all the U20 brought into the squad for the experience and to have a look, he looked the obvious candidate. He is far closer to being ready to fit into the England squad than any of the U20s forwards chosen, Evans and Ewels, they are stature wise very much men against boys and there for their potential. He is probably ahead of Marchant in terms of playing regular AP games and as we have 13s aplenty I am not sure why he is there. He is talented but offers little different to Joseph or Daly. In terms of what is required of a 12, Harry can catch, tackle, battering ram, break with pace etc. and has some very deft touches for such a big bloke. The only one who comes close is Farrell and he struggles with the latter 2, that extra 3" and 2 stone make a big difference.

I can see him playing regularly at 12 for Saints this season with Burrell at 13, he has looked his best there in recent seasons.

From a selfish point of view, the longer he stays out of the EPS, the better for Saints.

Exactly, this is a provisional EPS squad which has training camps in August. Nobody is suggesting Mallinder is ready to play in the AIs, or even for the actual EPS squad, but his gifts are obvious and if EJ isn't happy with aspects of his game this was his opportunity to work with him on those issues before sending him back to Saints to make the 12 shirt his own. Marchant may play for England one day but the competition is incredibly intense for his position and I just can't see how he is the best use of a training camp place at this point in time.

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Post by DaveM Sat 06 Aug 2016, 10:56 pm

nlpnlp wrote:I am sorry but did you actually watch the Saxon games in South Africa?  If so you would have seen Cipriani constantly dropping off tackles, being bumped off and just not making a real effort to drop 'his man'.  If you have watched England since EJ has taken over, you would have seen Ford making hits and trying to dislodge the ball and holding up his opponent until bigger help came.  Cipriani simply did not do that.  I am a Sale fan and have watched Cirpriani over the last 3 years and know what he can do in attack and know that when he wants to he can tackle.  But in South Africa unfortunately tackling was off the menu and so his England career is over for EJ.


Yes I did, and I thought Cipriani had a good tour. Doubting myself I had a look at the forums here, and at a thread on another forum on the Saxons tour, as well as searching for Saxons articles, and I'm struggling to find anyone who agrees with you.

Diamond wanted to keep him, Young is happy to have him. If you are upset he's left then I can't blame you. At international level I just don't think EJ likes him (criticising him publically as I recall for being too mouthy about wanting a recall), which is a shame given the lack of depth at FH in English rugby at present.

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Post by robbo277 Tue 09 Aug 2016, 12:25 am

DaveM wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

No one expects Harry to be in the England side, probably not in the 35, but of all the U20 brought into the squad for the experience and to have a look, he looked the obvious candidate. He is far closer to being ready to fit into the England squad than any of the U20s forwards chosen, Evans and Ewels, they are stature wise very much men against boys and there for their potential. He is probably ahead of Marchant in terms of playing regular AP games and as we have 13s aplenty I am not sure why he is there. He is talented but offers little different to Joseph or Daly. In terms of what is required of a 12, Harry can catch, tackle, battering ram, break with pace etc. and has some very deft touches for such a big bloke. The only one who comes close is Farrell and he struggles with the latter 2, that extra 3" and 2 stone make a big difference.

I can see him playing regularly at 12 for Saints this season with Burrell at 13, he has looked his best there in recent seasons.

From a selfish point of view, the longer he stays out of the EPS, the better for Saints.

Exactly, this is a provisional EPS squad which has training camps in August. Nobody is suggesting Mallinder is ready to play in the AIs, or even for the actual EPS squad, but his gifts are obvious and if EJ isn't happy with aspects of his game this was his opportunity to work with him on those issues before sending him back to Saints to make the 12 shirt his own. Marchant may play for England one day but the competition is incredibly intense for his position and I just can't see how he is the best use of a training camp place at this point in time.

This makes the most sense to me. Get Mallinder in to look at him first hand, get to know a bit more about him, give him some pointers on his game and then send him away to play a season at Northampton. Maybe he then makes the Argentina squad if he goes well and Farrell goes off with the Lions.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 10 Aug 2016, 2:08 pm

Whats your thoughts on the styles for the Autumn games.

In Oz test 1 and 2 were majority defensive efforts...but in test 2 we opened up and defence was forgotten (by both sides).

Will he open it up again...or stick with the defensive counter attacking game.

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Post by yappysnap Wed 10 Aug 2016, 9:07 pm

Needs to be that mix of both from the first test. We can't play our second Test defence only gameplan against SA, neither can we play the helter skelter rugby of the third.

We need balance and a massive pack performance. Massive.

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Post by robbo277 Wed 10 Aug 2016, 9:48 pm

I guess the good thing is he made the change without really changing the personnel. Harrison for the injured Haskell, were there any other changes?

I think there's a space at open side because of Haskell's injury and possibly at left wing (especially as Nowell will miss the start of the season), but other than that I think Mako and Youngs (with 3 starts on tour) have nailed theirs posts (having been rotated during the Six Nations), and we can predict 13 of the players from now (injury permitting).

But Jones has developed a team that can hold Australia to one try from a line-out one week, to scoring 44 points the next. I think a lot will come down to conditions and how the game starts. England will look to start tight but if they fall behind then they will have to start opening up to come back into it.

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Post by beshocked Thu 11 Aug 2016, 10:36 am

The positive for England is I think the pack has the power and size to engage South Africa in an arm wrestle if necessary and win.

No Haskell would be a blow in the AIs due to his physicality but there's still plenty in the pack.

Complete contrast to the pack power that we had in the RWC.

Who do you think will replace Haskel as a starter? Clifford? I know he's not technically a 7 but neither is Haskell.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 11 Aug 2016, 11:01 am

I have a feeling Hughes could replace Haskell.

Hes massively physical, a carrier, strong at the breakdown, and tackles. As near a like for like as we have really.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 11 Aug 2016, 11:05 am

Hughes would need to up his work rate but could be an outstanding asset with Billy in toe. I personally think Clifford would be the better choice currently with Hughes off the bench.

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