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The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

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Post by Electric Demon on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 6:17 pm

First topic message reminder :

It's not Labour or Corbyn's fault either

In this age of entitlement, "the workers" who traditionally voted Labour take the welfare state for granted and are now bizarrely right wing, even though they rely on the welfare policies of the left. (I am aware this is generalisation - but hey, that seems to be the crux of the thread)

The left and the working classes are completely at odds with each other now - which is a massive problem for Labour. It has to become 2 different parties because it won't be able to unite those 2 forces when there is a rejection of experts. But when that happens then there will be no party remotely able to challenge the Conservatives.


Last edited by Cassius Zhi on Sun 26 Jun 2016, 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Changes "intelligence" to "experts" as that was very poor choice of words)

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Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 1:42 pm

SecretFly wrote:
rodders wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
rodders wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Keep talking Navy.

The Queen is with me Wink  


Is that the same queen who's in NI today to open a railway upgrade that was funded by the EU?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-33342236

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-36642740

Ask her.  It's her people (you included) that paid for it.

The Germans?

You're German?  No wonder you voted Remain. Wink

Makes you wonder which way the Queen would have voted, if she could have. Wink
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Post by pedro on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 1:43 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Water?

Who mentioned water?

The EU is the topic.  But perhaps the Irish angle on it is for a different thread.  

This is about the UK referendum, I think we maybe better get back to it.  Sorry for the diversions, folks.

Part of the conversation is about annoying EU laws that governments have to implement. Most of them are good in my opinion. Ireland would be a right environmental mess except for some of these EU Directives.


It's much more fundamental than EU annoying laws, Sin.  You all know it's much more fundamental now but keep bringing up the little bits and pieces to bury the head in the sand about the big picture.  The EU (as a concept) is on the run - fighting all the way as it goes of course, but on the run.   Europe can have other models.  Like I said before, this current EU model doesn't have copyright.  It's an idea that's been tired and is now under pressure.  Other ideas are out there.  The Earth has a while yet before it's consumed by the Sun.  Plenty of time for other models.
Yes but right now these ideas are only in your head. You sound like a bitter person living in a parallel universe.

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Post by pedro on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 1:44 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
rodders wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
rodders wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Keep talking Navy.

The Queen is with me Wink  


Is that the same queen who's in NI today to open a railway upgrade that was funded by the EU?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-33342236

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-36642740

Ask her.  It's her people (you included) that paid for it.

The Germans?

You're German?  No wonder you voted Remain. Wink

Makes you wonder which way the Queen would have voted, if she could have. Wink
She's married to a non-working Greek isn't she?

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 1:47 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:

I think that's ultimately why I'm a Remainer. I just love wine and cheese (and claiming things on expenses).

I genuinely hate cheese...maybe that's why I'm such a reluctant zombie. Plus I hate having to stand up with a glass of wine in one hand and some cheese thing in the other..... it's the most unnatural thing in the world to stand whilst eating and drinking. That's another reason the Brex-iters probably wanted out.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 1:49 pm

Cassius Zhi wrote:It's not Labour or Corbyn's fault either

In this age of entitlement, "the workers" who traditionally voted Labour take the welfare state for granted and are now bizarrely right wing, even though they rely on the welfare policies of the left. (I am aware this is generalisation - but hey, that seems to be the crux of the thread)

The left and the working classes are completely at odds with each other now - which is a massive problem for Labour. It has to become 2 different parties because it won't be able to unite those 2 forces when there is a rejection of experts. But when that happens then there will be no party remotely able to challenge the Conservatives.


I do find the paradox both hilarious and disturbing. These recent spates of hostile and racist behaviour across the country (including places close to where I live) from "working class" people who want to "take our country back" in the traditional manner of far-right / BNP types, yet are happy to claim any benefits they can get and are staunch supporters of the welfare state.

Suppose you could call them "National Socialists"?
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Post by funnyExiledScot on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 1:50 pm

SecretFly wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:

I think that's ultimately why I'm a Remainer. I just love wine and cheese (and claiming things on expenses).

I genuinely hate cheese...maybe that's why I'm such a reluctant zombie.  Plus I hate having to stand up with a glass of wine in one hand and some cheese thing in the other.....  it's the most unnatural thing in the world to stand whilst eating and drinking.  That's another reason the Brex-iters probably wanted out.

I prefer to avoid the awkwardness and just drink. Eating is cheating.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 1:51 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 1:54 pm

pedro wrote:

Yes but right now these ideas are only in your head. You sound like a bitter person living in a parallel universe.

No, I'm the happy one.  The Remain camp are the bitter people.  Wink  You're looking into Alice's Looking Glass there, pedro ...that's your frown you're looking at.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 1:56 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 1:59 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
Cassius Zhi wrote:It's not Labour or Corbyn's fault either

In this age of entitlement, "the workers" who traditionally voted Labour take the welfare state for granted and are now bizarrely right wing, even though they rely on the welfare policies of the left. (I am aware this is generalisation - but hey, that seems to be the crux of the thread)

The left and the working classes are completely at odds with each other now - which is a massive problem for Labour. It has to become 2 different parties because it won't be able to unite those 2 forces when there is a rejection of experts. But when that happens then there will be no party remotely able to challenge the Conservatives.


I do find the paradox both hilarious and disturbing. These recent spates of hostile and racist behaviour across the country (including places close to where I live) from "working class" people who want to "take our country back" in the traditional manner of far-right / BNP types, yet are happy to claim any benefits they can get and are staunch supporters of the welfare state.

Suppose you could call them "National Socialists"?

The ignorance and prejudice within this post. picard

Labour have failed its supporters for years. Their policies have been entirely detrimental the working class. They supported those who seek benefits. There is a difference between the working class (it's in the name) and those who seek to scrounge off of the welfare state.

We live in a society where it is more beneficial to be a single parent and live on benefits than to be a married couple earning just over minimum wage (which is the reality for many skilled workers nowadays). Is it any wonder this is the lifestyle some people decide to choose?

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:01 pm

pedro wrote:
She's married to a non-working Greek isn't she?

Careful.  You're all going off-message now.  She's of course only 'European'.... or at least was.  Now she's back to being a foreigner.


Last edited by SecretFly on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Coxy001 on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:01 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.


EU isn't prepared to enter any informal negotiations and will only talk to us once we invoke article 50.

Funny, as BoJo and Farage the wanckers said otherwise.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:02 pm

I also greatly struggle to understand how people who seem to think they have good intentions cannot see the irony in showing extreme prejudice towards people groups of their choosing, while criticising those groups for racism.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

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Post by Sin é on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:04 pm

rodders wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Sin é wrote:Fly ( take it you are just wumming here, but I'll respond anway Very Happy).

I voted No to Lisbon the first time and I would always be worried about our hard fought independence. But I accept that its hard to keep all the people happy all the time, so not everything goes your way. The EU has been fantastic for Ireland (North & South). Take note, our Irish politicans have absolutely no interest in jumping ship with the UK. That should tell you a lot, considering the UK is our 2nd biggest single trading partner (I think, after the US).

I'm delighted to hear that recognised.

Ireland would be mad to Leave, particularly following the UK vote. Ireland, with its lower corporation tax, was always an attractive location for UK financial institutions, and that will only increase given the large number of Irish UCITS vehicles with UK-based managers.

Hear hear! It was even better for Wales but hey ho they are hard folks to please.


Worth mentioning - about 10 years ago I was working as a rural development project officer where where the area I was working was twinned with a similar type area in both NI and Wales (Interreg - Transnational cooperation).

Gawd the difference in attitude was unbelievable. The Welsh had just no get up and go and expected 'someone' to do everything for them - whereas the Irish lot were really anxious to learn and get the most out of everything.
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Post by ShahenshahG on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:05 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.


http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/06/27/merkel-no-informal-brexit-talks-without-article-50-trigger/

We aren't going to sort out anything unless we actually start the process.


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Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:06 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Cassius Zhi wrote:It's not Labour or Corbyn's fault either

In this age of entitlement, "the workers" who traditionally voted Labour take the welfare state for granted and are now bizarrely right wing, even though they rely on the welfare policies of the left. (I am aware this is generalisation - but hey, that seems to be the crux of the thread)

The left and the working classes are completely at odds with each other now - which is a massive problem for Labour. It has to become 2 different parties because it won't be able to unite those 2 forces when there is a rejection of experts. But when that happens then there will be no party remotely able to challenge the Conservatives.


I do find the paradox both hilarious and disturbing. These recent spates of hostile and racist behaviour across the country (including places close to where I live) from "working class" people who want to "take our country back" in the traditional manner of far-right / BNP types, yet are happy to claim any benefits they can get and are staunch supporters of the welfare state.

Suppose you could call them "National Socialists"?

The ignorance and prejudice within this postpicard

Labour have failed its supporters for years. Their policies have been entirely detrimental the working class. They supported those who seek benefits. There is a difference between the working class (it's in the name) and those who seek to scrounge off of the welfare state.

We live in a society where it is more beneficial to be a single parent and live on benefits than to be a married couple earning just over minimum wage (which is the reality for many skilled workers nowadays). Is it any wonder this is the lifestyle some people decide to choose?


None on my part. I was simply stating fact - relating an article from last night's news, as a matter of fact.

The people committing these acts of racism are exhibiting distinctly far-right political tendencies, while coming from low-income / heavily welfare-dependent areas.

Admittedly they are in a minority (thankfully) but it just shows how its possible to embrace both ends of the political spectrum simultaneously...much like a certain German political party did 70-odd years ago.
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Post by rodders on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:08 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.


We already have a points system and we have higher numbers of non-eu migration, than eu.

Both countries have much higher rates of immigration per population than we do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate
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Post by Guest on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:08 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I also greatly struggle to understand how people who seem to think they have good intentions cannot see the irony in showing extreme prejudice towards people groups of their choosing, while criticising those groups for racism.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Do both. Just not at once, or you will be having a breakdown o0

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Post by Coxy001 on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:12 pm

rodders wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.


We already have a points system and we have higher numbers of non-eu migration, than eu.

Both countries have much higher rates of immigration per population than we do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate

Cue leave supporters/Boris simply starting to shout "Take back control" in some deaf somewhat retarded manner in the hope that the dimwits of society who have the long term memory of a special needs goldfish forget the more important part of what's being stated in factual terms.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:13 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.


http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/06/27/merkel-no-informal-brexit-talks-without-article-50-trigger/

We aren't going to sort out anything unless we actually start the process.


Donald Tusk was quoted as saying the same thing. Puts us in a bit of a Catch-22 situation, doesn't it?

If they're going to be like that I say screw 'em and just do what we want. How likely are they to issue sanctions or anything against us? Judging from the EUs performance so far, their rules only apply if you want them to. If we play hard ball, I can't see them standing up to us (in any meaningful way).

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Post by Sin é on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:14 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Cassius Zhi wrote:It's not Labour or Corbyn's fault either

In this age of entitlement, "the workers" who traditionally voted Labour take the welfare state for granted and are now bizarrely right wing, even though they rely on the welfare policies of the left. (I am aware this is generalisation - but hey, that seems to be the crux of the thread)

The left and the working classes are completely at odds with each other now - which is a massive problem for Labour. It has to become 2 different parties because it won't be able to unite those 2 forces when there is a rejection of experts. But when that happens then there will be no party remotely able to challenge the Conservatives.


I do find the paradox both hilarious and disturbing. These recent spates of hostile and racist behaviour across the country (including places close to where I live) from "working class" people who want to "take our country back" in the traditional manner of far-right / BNP types, yet are happy to claim any benefits they can get and are staunch supporters of the welfare state.

Suppose you could call them "National Socialists"?

The ignorance and prejudice within this post. picard

Labour have failed its supporters for years. Their policies have been entirely detrimental the working class. They supported those who seek benefits. There is a difference between the working class (it's in the name) and those who seek to scrounge off of the welfare state.

We live in a society where it is more beneficial to be a single parent and live on benefits than to be a married couple earning just over minimum wage (which is the reality for many skilled workers nowadays). Is it any wonder this is the lifestyle some people decide to choose?

That is the UK's government's fault, not the EUs though. (By the way, the benefits available in the UK are much worse than in several EU countries who don't have the same attitude to migration).

I suppose you could say though, that people get the politicians they deserve.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:15 pm

rodders wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.


We already have a points system and we have higher numbers of non-eu migration, than eu.

Both countries have much higher rates of immigration per population than we do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate


Both countries are also FAR larger and have FAR LOWER population densities than the UK, so are capable of sustaining higher immigration levels. Please check ALL the facts before replying Wink

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density

UK ranked 53rd, Canada 230th and Australia 235th.

Our points system currently only applies to non-EU migrants as we have to accept free movement of EU citizens. Hopefully the new deal would see the points system apply to ALL migrants regardless. Which ought to have an effect with regard to lowering overall migration into the UK.


Last edited by dyrewolfe on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Coxy001 on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:21 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.


http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/06/27/merkel-no-informal-brexit-talks-without-article-50-trigger/

We aren't going to sort out anything unless we actually start the process.


Donald Tusk was quoted as saying the same thing. Puts us in a bit of a Catch-22 situation, doesn't it?

If they're going to be like that I say screw 'em and just do what we want. How likely are they to issue sanctions or anything against us? Judging from the EUs performance so far, their rules only apply if you want them to. If we play hard ball, I can't see them standing up to us (in any meaningful way).


Yeah because we've got such a massive leg to stand on in all of this. I mean what we going to say.. erm.. "well if you don't talk to us then we, erm, won't invoke article 50". And at that point the markets react, the £ gets stronger and everyone with a modicum of intelligence goes "thank fu*k for that". And yes of course we'll play "hard ball" as it would be so very much within our interests to pi$$ off any EU state that could simply veto any extension to negotiations when the two year (article 50 invoked) period is up.

Jesus.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:22 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
Cassius Zhi wrote:It's not Labour or Corbyn's fault either

In this age of entitlement, "the workers" who traditionally voted Labour take the welfare state for granted and are now bizarrely right wing, even though they rely on the welfare policies of the left. (I am aware this is generalisation - but hey, that seems to be the crux of the thread)

The left and the working classes are completely at odds with each other now - which is a massive problem for Labour. It has to become 2 different parties because it won't be able to unite those 2 forces when there is a rejection of experts. But when that happens then there will be no party remotely able to challenge the Conservatives.


I do find the paradox both hilarious and disturbing. These recent spates of hostile and racist behaviour across the country (including places close to where I live) from "working class" people who want to "take our country back" in the traditional manner of far-right / BNP types, yet are happy to claim any benefits they can get and are staunch supporters of the welfare state.

Suppose you could call them "National Socialists"?
Disturbing eh?
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:23 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.

Did you read Rowley's (I think) post on this earlier today????
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Post by Rory_Gallagher on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:24 pm

Sin é wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Cassius Zhi wrote:It's not Labour or Corbyn's fault either

In this age of entitlement, "the workers" who traditionally voted Labour take the welfare state for granted and are now bizarrely right wing, even though they rely on the welfare policies of the left. (I am aware this is generalisation - but hey, that seems to be the crux of the thread)

The left and the working classes are completely at odds with each other now - which is a massive problem for Labour. It has to become 2 different parties because it won't be able to unite those 2 forces when there is a rejection of experts. But when that happens then there will be no party remotely able to challenge the Conservatives.


I do find the paradox both hilarious and disturbing. These recent spates of hostile and racist behaviour across the country (including places close to where I live) from "working class" people who want to "take our country back" in the traditional manner of far-right / BNP types, yet are happy to claim any benefits they can get and are staunch supporters of the welfare state.

Suppose you could call them "National Socialists"?

The ignorance and prejudice within this post. picard

Labour have failed its supporters for years. Their policies have been entirely detrimental the working class. They supported those who seek benefits. There is a difference between the working class (it's in the name) and those who seek to scrounge off of the welfare state.

We live in a society where it is more beneficial to be a single parent and live on benefits than to be a married couple earning just over minimum wage (which is the reality for many skilled workers nowadays). Is it any wonder this is the lifestyle some people decide to choose?

That is the UK's government's fault, not the EUs though. (By the way, the benefits available in the UK are much worse than in several EU countries who don't have the same attitude to migration).

I suppose you could say though, that people get the politicians they deserve.

I never suggested that it was the fault of the EU. That belongs to the Labour and the Tories who do not truly represent anyone. This referendum merely confirmed just how totally out of touch they are with their voters.

Leaving the EU does nothing but grant national sovereignty to the UK. It doesn't solve the immigration crisis and it doesn't solve economical problems. That will depend on the elected government within the UK. For some, national sovereignty is non-negotiable and must be retrieved at all costs. The idea that a country cannot control its own borders and its own laws is absolutely ludicrous.

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Post by Sin é on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:25 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.


http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/06/27/merkel-no-informal-brexit-talks-without-article-50-trigger/

We aren't going to sort out anything unless we actually start the process.


Donald Tusk was quoted as saying the same thing. Puts us in a bit of a Catch-22 situation, doesn't it?

If they're going to be like that I say screw 'em and just do what we want. How likely are they to issue sanctions or anything against us? Judging from the EUs performance so far, their rules only apply if you want them to. If we play hard ball, I can't see them standing up to us (in any meaningful way).


You don't think all the EU countries won't put an automatic 10% tarif on all imports into the EU?

United States: US$66.5 billion (14.5% of total UK exports)
Germany: $46.4 billion (10.1%)
Switzerland: $32.2 billion (7%)
China: $27.4 billion (5.9%)
France: $27 billion (5.9%)
Netherlands: $26.6 billion (5.8%)
Ireland: $25.5 billion (5.5%)
Belgium: $17.8 billion (3.9%)
Spain: $13.1 billion (2.8%)
Italy: $12.9 billion (2.8%)
United Arab Emirates: $10.3 billion (2.2%)
Hong Kong: $9.6 billion (2.1%)
South Korea: $7 billion (1.5%)
Saudi Arabia: $6.7 billion (1.5%)
Sweden: $6.6 billion (1.4%)

UK does not have any trade agreements with any of these countries.

Good luck with developing trade with South Korea!


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Post by Coxy001 on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:25 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
rodders wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.


We already have a points system and we have higher numbers of non-eu migration, than eu.

Both countries have much higher rates of immigration per population than we do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate


Both countries are also FAR larger and have FAR LOWER population densities than the UK, so are capable of sustaining higher immigration levels. Please check ALL the facts before replying Wink

Our points system currently only applies to non-EU migrants as we have to accept free movement of EU citizens. Hopefully the new deal would see the points system apply to ALL migrants regardless. Which ought to have an effect with regard to lowering overall migration into the UK.

Yet we accept more non-UK immigrants than we do EU immigrants?!? Christ, someone take the crazy pills and whiskey off this guy.

And again, you can't twist your arguement that counters how immigration is measured which is by population. Not by effing density, or how many effing trees there are that would have to be cut down to make way for mosques.

Non-EU immigration is "the problem" (if you're a racist leave voter), but yet you bang on about EU immigration. Levels of which are far lower.

Someone. Give. Me. Strength.


Last edited by Coxy001 on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:25 pm

Coxy001 wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.


http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/06/27/merkel-no-informal-brexit-talks-without-article-50-trigger/

We aren't going to sort out anything unless we actually start the process.


Donald Tusk was quoted as saying the same thing. Puts us in a bit of a Catch-22 situation, doesn't it?

If they're going to be like that I say screw 'em and just do what we want. How likely are they to issue sanctions or anything against us? Judging from the EUs performance so far, their rules only apply if you want them to. If we play hard ball, I can't see them standing up to us (in any meaningful way).


Yeah because we've got such a massive leg to stand on in all of this. I mean what we going to say.. erm.. "well if you don't talk to us then we, erm, won't invoke article 50". And at that point the markets react, the £ gets stronger and everyone with a modicum of intelligence goes "thank fu*k for that". And yes of course we'll play "hard ball" as it would be so very much within our interests to pi$$ off any EU state that could simply veto any extension to negotiations when the two year (article 50 invoked) period is up.

Jesus.

It isn't all sunshine and roses for the EU either.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:28 pm

Sin é wrote:

I suppose you could say though, that people get the politicians they deserve.

Most accurate quote so far.

The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 10 Mick-wallace-9-752x501

The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 10 2m-QFdPk

The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 10 20145_Boris-Johnson-wins-seat-MP

The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 10 Guy-Verhofstadt

The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 10 1224273343794_1-1

People add their own choices below.

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Post by rodders on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:29 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
rodders wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.


We already have a points system and we have higher numbers of non-eu migration, than eu.

Both countries have much higher rates of immigration per population than we do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate


Both countries are also FAR larger and have FAR LOWER population densities than the UK, so are capable of sustaining higher immigration levels. Please check ALL the facts before replying Wink

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density

UK ranked 53rd, Canada 230th and Australia 235th.

Our points system currently only applies to non-EU migrants as we have to accept free movement of EU citizens. Hopefully the new deal would see the points system apply to ALL migrants regardless. Which ought to have an effect with regard to lowering overall migration into the UK.

And what about all those retired British out there clogging up the Spanish and French healthcare systems?

Presumably having them repatriated won't effect our population density if we swap them for working age Polish. Great plan.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:30 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.


http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/06/27/merkel-no-informal-brexit-talks-without-article-50-trigger/

We aren't going to sort out anything unless we actually start the process.


Donald Tusk was quoted as saying the same thing. Puts us in a bit of a Catch-22 situation, doesn't it?

If they're going to be like that I say screw 'em and just do what we want. How likely are they to issue sanctions or anything against us? Judging from the EUs performance so far, their rules only apply if you want them to. If we play hard ball, I can't see them standing up to us (in any meaningful way).

Good luck with that one. If we were to play "hardball" (somewhat laughable after England's self-ejection from the Euros last night), do you not think the EU might not simply kick us out? What will we (you?) do then? Invade them? (and with what, exactly?) Not buy EU products? I'm sure they quaking....
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Post by Guest on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:32 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:

I suppose you could say though, that people get the politicians they deserve.

Most accurate quote so far.

The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 10 Mick-wallace-9-752x501

The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 10 2m-QFdPk

The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 10 20145_Boris-Johnson-wins-seat-MP

The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 10 Guy-Verhofstadt

The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 10 1224273343794_1-1

People add their own choices below.

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Post by Sin é on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:34 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Cassius Zhi wrote:It's not Labour or Corbyn's fault either

In this age of entitlement, "the workers" who traditionally voted Labour take the welfare state for granted and are now bizarrely right wing, even though they rely on the welfare policies of the left. (I am aware this is generalisation - but hey, that seems to be the crux of the thread)

The left and the working classes are completely at odds with each other now - which is a massive problem for Labour. It has to become 2 different parties because it won't be able to unite those 2 forces when there is a rejection of experts. But when that happens then there will be no party remotely able to challenge the Conservatives.


I do find the paradox both hilarious and disturbing. These recent spates of hostile and racist behaviour across the country (including places close to where I live) from "working class" people who want to "take our country back" in the traditional manner of far-right / BNP types, yet are happy to claim any benefits they can get and are staunch supporters of the welfare state.

Suppose you could call them "National Socialists"?

The ignorance and prejudice within this post. picard

Labour have failed its supporters for years. Their policies have been entirely detrimental the working class. They supported those who seek benefits. There is a difference between the working class (it's in the name) and those who seek to scrounge off of the welfare state.

We live in a society where it is more beneficial to be a single parent and live on benefits than to be a married couple earning just over minimum wage (which is the reality for many skilled workers nowadays). Is it any wonder this is the lifestyle some people decide to choose?

That is the UK's government's fault, not the EUs though. (By the way, the benefits available in the UK are much worse than in several EU countries who don't have the same attitude to migration).

I suppose you could say though, that people get the politicians they deserve.

I never suggested that it was the fault of the EU. That belongs to the Labour and the Tories who do not truly represent anyone. This referendum merely confirmed just how totally out of touch they are with their voters.

Leaving the EU does nothing but grant national sovereignty to the UK. It doesn't solve the immigration crisis and it doesn't solve economical problems. That will depend on the elected government within the UK. For some, national sovereignty is non-negotiable and must be retrieved at all costs. The idea that a country cannot control its own borders and its own laws is absolutely ludicrous.

Immigration/migration within the EU isn't a problem though. When new countries have joined the EU, there is an option to 'keep them out' for a couple of years. I think Germany has done this (I think with Poland - they didn't accept them for 6 years or something). I know Ireland was one of the few countries to allow them to work in Ireland without obtaining a work visa initially.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:34 pm

That last lad looks the most intelligent so far....

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:35 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
rodders wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.


We already have a points system and we have higher numbers of non-eu migration, than eu.

Both countries have much higher rates of immigration per population than we do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate


Both countries are also FAR larger and have FAR LOWER population densities than the UK, so are capable of sustaining higher immigration levels. Please check ALL the facts before replying Wink

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density

UK ranked 53rd, Canada 230th and Australia 235th.

Our points system currently only applies to non-EU migrants as we have to accept free movement of EU citizens. Hopefully the new deal would see the points system apply to ALL migrants regardless. Which ought to have an effect with regard to lowering overall migration into the UK.
What rot. Yep, Canada and Australia are huge, but who the heck wants to live on 90% of their land mass? It's pretty uninhabitable for all but those with specialised kit. There's a geographical reason why large tracts of Canada and Australia are barely inhabited and I suspect the drivers for anyone in those inhospitable regions is there's significant natural wealth there i.e. opals in Aus. We are NOT packed out in the U.K.
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Post by Guest on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:36 pm

SecretFly wrote:That last lad looks the most intelligent so far....

Evil dictators are probably quite intelligent.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:40 pm

Coxy001 wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.


http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/06/27/merkel-no-informal-brexit-talks-without-article-50-trigger/

We aren't going to sort out anything unless we actually start the process.


Donald Tusk was quoted as saying the same thing. Puts us in a bit of a Catch-22 situation, doesn't it?

If they're going to be like that I say screw 'em and just do what we want. How likely are they to issue sanctions or anything against us? Judging from the EUs performance so far, their rules only apply if you want them to. If we play hard ball, I can't see them standing up to us (in any meaningful way).


Yeah because we've got such a massive leg to stand on in all of this. I mean what we going to say.. erm.. "well if you don't talk to us then we, erm, won't invoke article 50". And at that point the markets react, the £ gets stronger and everyone with a modicum of intelligence goes "thank fu*k for that". And yes of course we'll play "hard ball" as it would be so very much within our interests to pi$$ off any EU state that could simply veto any extension to negotiations when the two year (article 50 invoked) period is up.

Jesus.


I don't think you're following my train of thought (all aboard! Wink )

If the EU won't negotiate until we invoke Article 50, then decide to mess us around, whats to stop us from simply saying "EU legislation no longer applies to us - we are free to conduct business how we want outside the Euro zone. What are you going to do about it Brussels?"

I certainly accept we are just one country out of 28 and there is little we can hold them to ransom over. However we do have many deeply entrenched business links, which would cause them some hurt if they were simply severed.

We are world leaders in a number of fields, including computing, biotechnology, the space industry. We have close R&D links with European companies and I doubt they want to lose our expertise and capabilities any more than we want to lose their demand for it.

My genuine (if maybe naive) question is, would Brussels really freeze the UK out of its markets over the terms of our exit? I could well be wrong, but I somehow doubt it.
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Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:42 pm

Munchkin wrote:
SecretFly wrote:That last lad looks the most intelligent so far....

Evil dictators are probably quite intelligent.

Hmmmm, a lot of evil dictator types on these threads so.


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Post by ShahenshahG on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:43 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
Coxy001 wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.


http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/06/27/merkel-no-informal-brexit-talks-without-article-50-trigger/

We aren't going to sort out anything unless we actually start the process.


Donald Tusk was quoted as saying the same thing. Puts us in a bit of a Catch-22 situation, doesn't it?

If they're going to be like that I say screw 'em and just do what we want. How likely are they to issue sanctions or anything against us? Judging from the EUs performance so far, their rules only apply if you want them to. If we play hard ball, I can't see them standing up to us (in any meaningful way).


Yeah because we've got such a massive leg to stand on in all of this. I mean what we going to say.. erm.. "well if you don't talk to us then we, erm, won't invoke article 50". And at that point the markets react, the £ gets stronger and everyone with a modicum of intelligence goes "thank fu*k for that". And yes of course we'll play "hard ball" as it would be so very much within our interests to pi$$ off any EU state that could simply veto any extension to negotiations when the two year (article 50 invoked) period is up.

Jesus.


I don't think you're following my train of thought (all aboard! Wink )

If the EU won't negotiate until we invoke Article 50, then decide to mess us around, whats to stop us from simply saying "EU legislation no longer applies to us - we are free to conduct business how we want outside the Euro zone. What are you going to do about it Brussels?"

I certainly accept we are just one country out of 28 and there is little we can hold them to ransom over. However we do have many deeply entrenched business links, which would cause them some hurt if they were simply severed.

We are world leaders in a number of fields, including computing, biotechnology, the space industry. We have close R&D links with European companies and I doubt they want to lose our expertise and capabilities any more than we want to lose their demand for it.

My genuine (if maybe naive) question is, would Brussels really freeze the UK out of its markets over the terms of our exit? I could well be wrong, but I somehow doubt it.

They don't have to - all they have to do is wait for all our links and businesses to move to the continent. Those relied on by the eu are in turn reliant on the eu's business. If our businesses have to move to keep it they will.

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Post by Guest on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:48 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
SecretFly wrote:That last lad looks the most intelligent so far....

Evil dictators are probably quite intelligent.

Hmmmm, a lot of evil dictator types on these threads so.  


Yes, I would have to agree, although more in the postcard painter mode.

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Post by rodders on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:51 pm

Sin é wrote:
Immigration/migration within the EU isn't a problem though.

Not only is it not a problem, it's been very beneficial to the UK, culturally and economically.

The abject failure of any of the mainstream parties to make the case is one of the most depressing things in this whole episode.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:56 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
rodders wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Saw a depressing bit of opinion on the BBC's Brexit pages.

According to some experts in EU law, the exit process could take up to 10 years to complete. Shocked

I think its in everyone's best interests to have this wrapped up ASAP so we know where we stand (and of course businesses and the financial markets hate uncertainty).

Closer to 15 mate. Especially when negotiating the tricky immigration bit. No one wants to invoke article 50 because once we do we're probably going to end up with a worse deal.  


Certainly we won't want to invoke Article 50 until we're happy we've got the best deal we possibly can. Once we do, thats it - no more say in the matter.

I think immigration / free movement of people will prove to be a big stumbling block. Hope we stand firm on it though and adopt an Aussie / Canadian style points-based system.


We already have a points system and we have higher numbers of non-eu migration, than eu.

Both countries have much higher rates of immigration per population than we do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate


Both countries are also FAR larger and have FAR LOWER population densities than the UK, so are capable of sustaining higher immigration levels. Please check ALL the facts before replying Wink

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density

UK ranked 53rd, Canada 230th and Australia 235th.

Our points system currently only applies to non-EU migrants as we have to accept free movement of EU citizens. Hopefully the new deal would see the points system apply to ALL migrants regardless. Which ought to have an effect with regard to lowering overall migration into the UK.
What rot. Yep, Canada and Australia are huge, but who the heck wants to live on 90% of their land mass? It's pretty uninhabitable for all but those with specialised kit. There's a geographical reason why large tracts of Canada and Australia are barely inhabited and I suspect the drivers for anyone in those inhospitable regions is there's significant natural wealth there i.e. opals in Aus. We are NOT packed out in the U.K.

And how do you know the same isn't true in Canada and Australia? Granted no-one (sane) would want to live in the outback, or some low-lying marshy bit of Canada, but even allowing for that I would guess they still have far more usable land for development than the UK has.

UK Population - 66 million
UK Land mass - 250,000 square km

Australian Population - 24 million
Australian Land mass - 7.6 million square km

Canadian Population - 33.7 million
Canadian Land mass - 10 million square km

Bit of a difference, eh? Even allowing for the uninhabitable / undesirable areas.

Plus desalination & irrigation schemes could make more parts of Aus habitable. Land reclamation / flood defence schemes could do the same for Canada. Expensive yes, but technically possible.

Apart from NIMBYs objecting to their rural villages turning into commuter towns, I suspect we're not far off. How else do you explain developers building housing estates on known flood plains and having to incorporate flood defence and land drainage measures into new developments? Why do you think land and housing prices are so much more expensive than many other countries?


Last edited by dyrewolfe on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 2:58 pm

Re. politicians we deserve:

Spoiler:
The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll) - Page 10 _90139021_mediaitem90139020

Gotta love the guy in the background. A genuine picard.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:03 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:And how do you know the same isn't true in Canada and Australia? Granted no-one (sane) would want to live in the outback, or some low-lying marshy bit of Canada, but even allowing for that I would guess they still have far more usable land for development than the UK has.

UK Population - 66 million
UK Land mass - 250,000 square km

Australian Population - 24 million
Australian Land mass - 7.6 million square km

Canadian Population - 33.7 million
Canadian Land mass - 10 million square km

Bit of a difference, eh? Even allowing for the uninhabitable / undesirable areas.

Plus desalination & irrigation schemes could make more parts of Aus inhabitable. Land reclamation / flood defence schemes could do the same for Canada. Expensive yes, but technically possible.

Apart from NIMBYs objecting to their rural villages turning into commuter towns, I suspect we're not far off. How else do you explain developers building housing estates on known flood plains and having to incorporate flood defence and land drainage measures into new developments? Why do you think land and housing prices are so much more expensive than many other countries?
Laugh Yep, Canada and Australia could terraform parts of their landscape, but then again, we could build new towns/cities/schools/hospitals etc by the same token. I'm not suggesting net population increases don't come with issues, but being "full" clearly isn't one of them.
I don't know enough planning legislation re. building on flood plains, but it's clearly daft. We also have our 'Green Belt' preventing building in plenty of areas and as for land/property prices, can I hear you say Chinese (and other) investors? Or buy-to-rent U.K. landlords? What on Earth does that have to do with the EU?
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Post by Sin é on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:06 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:

I don't think you're following my train of thought (all aboard! Wink )

If the EU won't negotiate until we invoke Article 50, then decide to mess us around, whats to stop us from simply saying "EU legislation no longer applies to us - we are free to conduct business how we want outside the Euro zone. What are you going to do about it Brussels?"

I certainly accept we are just one country out of 28 and there is little we can hold them to ransom over. However we do have many deeply entrenched business links, which would cause them some hurt if they were simply severed.

We are world leaders in a number of fields, including computing, biotechnology, the space industry. We have close R&D links with European companies and I doubt they want to lose our expertise and capabilities any more than we want to lose their demand for it.

My genuine (if maybe naive) question is, would Brussels really freeze the UK out of its markets over the terms of our exit? I could well be wrong, but I somehow doubt it.

No, they wouldn't. They would just slap a World Trade Organiation agreed tariffs on all imports into the EU from UK. Without trade agreements, I think its an automatic 10%. That would also apply on exports to US in the absence of a trade agreement (which Obama has commented on the UK would go to the bottom of the queue to negotiate).

That tariff would make the UK uncompetitive. To avoid this is why countries want to be in the EU.
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Post by stub on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:10 pm

Sin é wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:

I don't think you're following my train of thought (all aboard! Wink )

If the EU won't negotiate until we invoke Article 50, then decide to mess us around, whats to stop us from simply saying "EU legislation no longer applies to us - we are free to conduct business how we want outside the Euro zone. What are you going to do about it Brussels?"

I certainly accept we are just one country out of 28 and there is little we can hold them to ransom over. However we do have many deeply entrenched business links, which would cause them some hurt if they were simply severed.

We are world leaders in a number of fields, including computing, biotechnology, the space industry. We have close R&D links with European companies and I doubt they want to lose our expertise and capabilities any more than we want to lose their demand for it.

My genuine (if maybe naive) question is, would Brussels really freeze the UK out of its markets over the terms of our exit? I could well be wrong, but I somehow doubt it.

No, they wouldn't. They would just slap a World Trade Organiation agreed tariffs on all imports into the EU from UK. Without trade agreements, I think its an automatic 10%. That would also apply on exports to US in the absence of a trade agreement (which Obama has commented on the UK would go to the bottom of the queue to negotiate).

That tariff would make the UK uncompetitive. To avoid this is why countries want to be in the EU.

The terms of any exit have yet to be agreed.

Edit: Ah I see the context of the post now.


Last edited by stub on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by milkyboy on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:15 pm

rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Immigration/migration within the EU isn't a problem though.

Not only is it not a problem, it's been very beneficial to the UK, culturally and economically.

The abject failure of any of the mainstream parties to make the case is one of the most depressing things in this whole episode.

Indeed rodders, but people want scapegoats... and history is littered with outsiders being the first scapegoats... "my life is rubbish because the eu beaurocats want to restrict the size of strawberries", "i have a dreadful life because the pole next door is prepared to get out of bed at 8 o'clock in the morning and do a day's graft, when i only want to work a few hours for twice as much"

When there aren't outsiders to blame, they'll turn back to the government, bankers, people better off than them, their boss etc... they'll just move their figures of scorn elsewhere... and hate them even more when they realise what real austerity measures are. Of course some of them already did that and voted just to reject cameron et al, seemingly oblivious to the fact that all those they wanted to give a slap to, will get over it, better than they will.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:20 pm

Sin é wrote: That would also apply on exports to US in the absence of a trade agreement (which Obama has commented on the UK would go to the bottom of the queue to negotiate).

How long more has Obama got? Who now has a 50/50 chance of replacing him? What did that candidate say?

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Post by Sin é on Tue 28 Jun 2016, 3:22 pm

Some interesting analysis from our old friends Rabo here ....

Brexit likely to inflate UK food prices

Regional Food & Agri

June 2016

The UK is a food importing country. Its isolation from the internal EU market after the Brexit is likely to increase its costs of sourcing food products, while it also increases the costs of the technology needed to produce food.

https://far.rabobank.com/en/sectors/regional-food-agri/Brexit-likely-to-inflate-UK-food-prices.html

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