The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

First topic message reminder :

It's not Labour or Corbyn's fault either

In this age of entitlement, "the workers" who traditionally voted Labour take the welfare state for granted and are now bizarrely right wing, even though they rely on the welfare policies of the left. (I am aware this is generalisation - but hey, that seems to be the crux of the thread)

The left and the working classes are completely at odds with each other now - which is a massive problem for Labour. It has to become 2 different parties because it won't be able to unite those 2 forces when there is a rejection of experts. But when that happens then there will be no party remotely able to challenge the Conservatives.

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

I like a nice footpath  

With a EU funded statue in the middle of it - don't forget the statue, it's part of the funding price anyway so you might as well have it.  

Maybe a statue of Glorious Leader, Junker.

stub wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

I like a nice footpath  

With a EU funded statue in the middle of it - don't forget the statue, it's part of the funding price anyway so you might as well have it.  

I now have path and statue envy.

Thanks.

But in all seriousness there is value in making places look and feel better - not necessarily sparkly but better. In some places these improvements might even attract visitors. Perhaps they will spend a bit of money and jobs will be created? Probably not in milky's town though - I expect the crackheads would scare the tourists.

I do understand there is real benefit to improving the image of a town, but in towns suffering from high unemployment I think investing that money in job creation should take priority. A sure way to take the crackheads of the streets would be get them into work.

Who is the recipient/distributor of the funds? The council or the EU directly?

Munchkin wrote:

stub wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

I like a nice footpath  

With a EU funded statue in the middle of it - don't forget the statue, it's part of the funding price anyway so you might as well have it.  

I now have path and statue envy.

Thanks.

But in all seriousness there is value in making places look and feel better - not necessarily sparkly but better. In some places these improvements might even attract visitors. Perhaps they will spend a bit of money and jobs will be created? Probably not in milky's town though - I expect the crackheads would scare the tourists.

I do understand there is real benefit to improving the image of a town, but in towns suffering from high unemployment I think investing that money in job creation should take priority. A sure way to take the crackheads of the streets would be get them into work.

Completely agree Munchkin - job creation is key here and whilst visitors/tourists will create some jobs a more strategic approach will be needed in some areas.

Would also add that a statue of Junker is not going to attract any visitors but it might scare off the crackheads!

Munchkin wrote:

stub wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

I like a nice footpath  

With a EU funded statue in the middle of it - don't forget the statue, it's part of the funding price anyway so you might as well have it.  

I now have path and statue envy.

Thanks.

But in all seriousness there is value in making places look and feel better - not necessarily sparkly but better. In some places these improvements might even attract visitors. Perhaps they will spend a bit of money and jobs will be created? Probably not in milky's town though - I expect the crackheads would scare the tourists.

I do understand there is real benefit to improving the image of a town, but in towns suffering from high unemployment I think investing that money in job creation should take priority. A sure way to take the crackheads of the streets would be get them into work.

Not sure 'Unemployed Crackhead' makes for a good CV.

...it makes you well qualified to live in Milkytown.

To be fair, I've disrespected the natives love of art. They've taken this EU funded rather bland post-modernist creation and in a matter of months produced a scene Tracy emin would be proud of.

Don't go to the Tate modern... Come to Milkytown where life imitates art

I should be on the marketing board.

Milkytown!

Sounds like a children's TV series, as dreamt up by the good folk who brought us the League of Gentlemen (remember Royston Vasey?) Possibly with some added LSD weirdness from 60s series The Prisoner.

The EU debate on Brexit was very interesting. I particularly liked what the lady (33:30 minutes in) has to say. She does lay into Farage a bit, which is ok by me, but she really attacks EU policy making and their consequences.

There is also a speaker (25:17) that's very interesting. He's really speaking about a United States of Europe, equipped with its own military:

25:17 - Ah I listened to Mr Verhofstadt.

A New HORRORZONE!

Indeed - a new horror zone.   Big and Great Ideas of our Founding Fathers!  A European Border and Coastguard and Army to protect Europe from the sovereignty of the 27 Nations involved.

We need all this to sell tomatoes, fish and beef to each other.  Heil Verhofstadt!

Munchkin wrote:The EU debate on Brexit was very interesting. I particularly liked what the lady (33:30 minutes in) has to say. She does lay into Farage a bit, which is ok by me, but she really attacks EU policy making and their consequences.

There is also a speaker (25:17) that's very interesting. He's really speaking about a United States of Europe, equipped with its own military:

I will carry out great vengeance on them and punish them in my wrath. Then they will know that I am the LORD, when I take vengeance on them.



Ezekiel 25:17

Sturgeon meeting with Juncker to discuss the possibilities for Scotland to remain part of the EU.

Purely in terms of showing leadership and direction, she is cleaning the floor with every other politician in this country.

She's tactically sound, technically astute, commands loyalty and has experience at the top level. She's my tip to be the next England manager.

On the positive side (don't say I'm not balanced) the markets are heading in the right direction. I presume the "nothing will happen until we've figured out what to do" message is cooling jets.

£ still falling.

Dreadful business in Istanbul. Beautiful city - one of my favourites - I do hope "The West" rallies around and offers support. The trend towards "not our problem" isolationism is a concern.

JuliusHMarx wrote:She's tactically sound, technically astute, commands loyalty and has experience at the top level. She's my tip to be the next England manager.

But she doesn't have dubious views about disabled people, and she isn't as boring as Alan Shearer. Those things will count against her.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Sturgeon meeting with Juncker to discuss the possibilities for Scotland to remain part of the EU.

Purely in terms of showing leadership and direction, she is cleaning the floor with every other politician in this country.

Any chance she could represent NI too as our "leader" seems to have decided to ignore the democratic wishes of the people here.

Maybe we could reform the kingdom of Dalriada with Nichola at the helm?

funnyExiledScot wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:She's tactically sound, technically astute, commands loyalty and has experience at the top level. She's my tip to be the next England manager.

But she doesn't have dubious views about disabled people, and she isn't as boring as Alan Shearer. Those things will count against her.

I think the 'tactically sound and technically astute whilst commanding respect' bit, is what counts against her

rodders wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Sturgeon meeting with Juncker to discuss the possibilities for Scotland to remain part of the EU.

Purely in terms of showing leadership and direction, she is cleaning the floor with every other politician in this country.

Any chance she could represent NI too as our "leader" seems to have decided to ignore the democratic wishes of the people here.

Maybe we could reform the kingdom of Dalriada with Nichola at the helm?

Not sure her views on national independence will float the boat for the entire NI population!!

Still, her proposition is an interesting one, as to whether it could ever be feasible for Scotland (and potentially NI + Gibraltar) to remain in the EU as well as remaining in the UK. I can think of a bunch of issues, the need for a border between Scotland and England being an obvious one to prevent EU people from entering England via Scotland plus of course the "Westminster problem" of having complete sovereignty over England + Wales but Scotland/NI/Gibraltar being subject to the direct effect of EU Regulations, but I'm not completely sure those are deal breakers. Will give it more thought. Extremely messy but I'm not sure complexity is enough to simply bin the idea.

Don't forget about London! They are coming with us

Maybe Wales and northern and middle England should form their own independent country led by Nigel Farraige?

The powers that be in Westminster are all currently watching the Ealing classic 'passport to pimilco' to finalise their plan for london's independence.

Ultimately, I expect a wall on the m25 mounted with machine gun posts to keep the riffraff out.

I don't think it's been mentioned but for me the issue here was not alienation from the EU that is the issue in middle England but alienation from Westminster and politics full stop.

What should have happened was regional devolution to Northern England and other regions , ironically northerners themselves voted against it a few years back.

The reason Britain is so divided is because it is so diverse - it is impossible for Westminister to implement policies which work across the board.

What is needed is more power and resources to regional assemblies where they can deal with specific local issues - health care, housing, attracting inward investment - including EU funding etc.

This is the only way to stop the UK falling apart in my opinion and the only way to connect to those who feel they've been failed by the political system.

Very good point rodders.

Problem is Rodders, most people hate other people being in charge whilst ironically not being prepared to take responsibility themselves...me being the prime example. This is why Cameron's Big Society hasn't worked because as soon as someone steps forward and says, "Yes, let's take control", someone else steps up and says, "Oh, so you want to be in charge do you?" and the sh!t fight begins.

rodders wrote:I don't think it's been mentioned but for me the issue here was not alienation from the EU that is the issue in middle England but alienation from Westminster and politics full stop.

What should have happened was regional devolution to Northern England and other regions , ironically northerners themselves voted against it a few years back.

The reason Britain is so divided is because it is so diverse - it is impossible for Westminister to implement policies which work across the board.

What is needed is more power and resources to regional assemblies where they can deal with specific local issues - health care, housing, attracting inward investment - including EU funding etc.

This is the only way to stop the UK falling apart in my opinion and the only way to connect to those who feel they've been failed by the political system.

100% agree. Decentralisation is fundamental to the future of the UK. Not necessarily through new parliaments and assemblies, but certainly through local councils.

And I think that is a (one) major reason why we see such pro EU attitudes in Scotland and NI versus England.

Working class English people have become disconnected.

OK Wales has an assembly so that debunks the theory a bit, although they have less powers than Scotland and NI and perhaps are more influenced by England - West Wales was remain majority.

Yes you could say NI and Scotland have less issue with immigration but then if you look at many of the areas which voted leave they have low levels too.

DAVE667 wrote:Problem is Rodders, most people hate other people being in charge whilst ironically not being prepared to take responsibility themselves...me being the prime example. This is why Cameron's Big Society hasn't worked because as soon as someone steps forward and says, "Yes, let's take control", someone else steps up and says, "Oh, so you want to be in charge do you?" and the sh!t fight begins.

In fairness the big society was a tory con job to replace the welfare state with food banks ...

If it's done it has to be done right, not giving more powers to local authorities with a falling budget work with - that just creates further inequality.

What we need is genuine regionalization, with locally elected politicians given real resources and powers and also made accountable to their community.

rodders wrote:And I think that is a (one) major reason why we see such pro EU attitudes in Scotland and NI versus England.

Working class English people have become disconnected.

OK Wales has an assembly so that debunks the theory a bit, although they have less powers than Scotland and NI and perhaps are more influenced by England - West Wales was remain majority.

Yes you could say NI and Scotland have less issue with immigration but then if you look at many of the areas which voted leave they have low levels too.

The ni gov is useless. Mind you the biggest issue is about flying a flag 365 days a year vs only on public holidays.

I'm starting to dislike that whinebag Sturgeon. With the way she goes on about it you'd think the Leave voters are some angry mob running through Britain abusing eastern Europeans and ripping off turbans... And Farage is gaining popularity I see, especially with the truth serum he gave to the embarrassing European parliament yesterday .

I see Branson is also having a bit of a whinge about his lost value... So when he said "we'd be worse off if we left the EU" what he actually meant was that he'd be worse off. Row back to your island pal.

Ent wrote:

rodders wrote:And I think that is a (one) major reason why we see such pro EU attitudes in Scotland and NI versus England.

Working class English people have become disconnected.

OK Wales has an assembly so that debunks the theory a bit, although they have less powers than Scotland and NI and perhaps are more influenced by England - West Wales was remain majority.

Yes you could say NI and Scotland have less issue with immigration but then if you look at many of the areas which voted leave they have low levels too.

The ni gov is useless. Mind you the biggest issue is about flying a flag 365 days a year vs only on public holidays.

That's it though, it isn't useless - it is a disaster at times, when certain contentious issues arise, but infinitely better for people than direct rule.

mikey_dragon wrote:I see Branson is also having a bit of a whinge about his lost value... So when he said "we'd be worse off if we left the EU" what he actually meant was that he'd be worse off. Row back to your island pal.

You should read all his comments. It'll help you understand it a bit better.

“We’re not any worse than anybody else, but I suspect we’ve lost a third of our value,” he said.

Aside from that, his comments say what every other Remainer is saying. We're officially 4 days into the worst recession on record .

Upset about my disregard for Sturgeon are you? Never mind the points-scoring, surely her voice is enough to make you dislike her...

mikey_dragon wrote:“We’re not any worse than anybody else, but I suspect we’ve lost a third of our value,” he said.

Aside from that, his comments say what every other Remainer is saying. We're officially 4 days into the worst recession on record .

Upset about my disregard for Sturgeon are you? Never mind the points-scoring, surely her voice is enough to make you dislike her...

Nope. Read them again. You'll get there.

http://theantimedia.org/brexit-worlds-400-richest/

George Soros too.

rodders wrote:

Ent wrote:

rodders wrote:And I think that is a (one) major reason why we see such pro EU attitudes in Scotland and NI versus England.

Working class English people have become disconnected.

OK Wales has an assembly so that debunks the theory a bit, although they have less powers than Scotland and NI and perhaps are more influenced by England - West Wales was remain majority.

Yes you could say NI and Scotland have less issue with immigration but then if you look at many of the areas which voted leave they have low levels too.

The ni gov is useless. Mind you the biggest issue is about flying a flag 365 days a year vs only on public holidays.

That's it though, it isn't useless - it is a disaster at times, when certain contentious issues arise, but infinitely better for people than direct rule.

Absolutely, although I do think an element of "direct rule" is also required. You do need a strong centralised government to cover foreign policy, defence and to manage the UK economy as a whole, however they must also realise that in order to govern the whole UK they must also release power to local authorities and the devolved Parliaments - not as a means of apportioning blame (i.e. tell them to deliver the moon on a stick with no budget whatsoever and no powers to raise money) but as a means of allowing local people to influence local policies.

mikey_dragon wrote:http://theantimedia.org/brexit-worlds-400-richest/

George Soros too.

The problem is though that whilst Branson may have lost a few million quid, he'll still manage to get by. Don't worry about him. Whilst the rich corrupt elite may well have the most to lose in absolute monetary terms, they are clearly not going to be the people who lose the most.

That's the issue with these GCSE politics conspiracy theory anti-establishment websites, they serve as a worthy exercise in intellectual masturbation but utterly fail to address the real impact in people's lives. They try so hard to come across as "seeing the truth", but the lack of attention to detail as to what is actually happening and going to happen to the country, is startling.

Read Branson's comments again. So far you've completely missed the point.

No I haven't.

Interesting that this doesn't get more airtime, doesn't fit the Remain agenda: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzNj-hH8LkY

mikey_dragon wrote:No I haven't.

Interesting that this doesn't get more airtime, doesn't fit the Remain agenda: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzNj-hH8LkY

So, having got Branson's point, I assume you're a bit upset that ordinary people working for Virgin have been affected in a negative way? Or are you pleased about that?

mikey_dragon wrote:No I haven't.

Interesting that this doesn't get more airtime, doesn't fit the Remain agenda: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzNj-hH8LkY

Ok, I'll help you out.

What did Branson say about inward investment into the UK, and the impact on jobs in this country?

The cognitive dissonance shown by many brexiteers post referendum is pretty staggering.

I'm sure this referendum will be a case study used by behaviourist psychologist students in years to come - if a higher level education system still exists that is.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

rodders wrote:

Ent wrote:

rodders wrote:And I think that is a (one) major reason why we see such pro EU attitudes in Scotland and NI versus England.

Working class English people have become disconnected.

OK Wales has an assembly so that debunks the theory a bit, although they have less powers than Scotland and NI and perhaps are more influenced by England - West Wales was remain majority.

Yes you could say NI and Scotland have less issue with immigration but then if you look at many of the areas which voted leave they have low levels too.

The ni gov is useless. Mind you the biggest issue is about flying a flag 365 days a year vs only on public holidays.

That's it though, it isn't useless - it is a disaster at times, when certain contentious issues arise, but infinitely better for people than direct rule.

Absolutely, although I do think an element of "direct rule" is also required. You do need a strong centralised government to cover foreign policy, defence and to manage the UK economy as a whole, however they must also realise that in order to govern the whole UK they must also release power to local authorities and the devolved Parliaments - not as a means of apportioning blame (i.e. tell them to deliver the moon on a stick with no budget whatsoever and no powers to raise money) but as a means of allowing local people to influence local policies.

I agree some sort of half way house is needed.

Home rule is great in principle, not sure ni is doing a good job of it. Healthcare a disaster with one health minister after another doing nothing then resigning, education in bits. Always going back to Westminster looking for emergency funding.

No announcement of job cuts. The markets are recovering, wages are set to increase which is what Hannan alludes to. Before you reply, don't mention the Chinese investment deal (need to see the announcement from the Chinese investors rather than Branson's gob), as Virgin can't lose 3000 jobs that weren't even created. Carry on with the petty abuse sat behind your keyboards, I've been reading it for months, just remember that Team Brexit beat you in the vote .

Ent wrote:
Home rule is great in principle, not sure ni is doing a good job of it. Healthcare a disaster with one health minister after another doing nothing then resigning, education in bits. Always going back to Westminster looking for emergency funding.

I didn't say they were doing a good job, and I don't entirely disagree, but you'd be hard pushed to find a single person who would argue it would be better under direct rule.

mikey_dragon wrote:No announcement of job cuts.

That's because we are still in the EU and haven't invoked article 50.

A number of large organisations, Vodafone being the latest, have already said they will relocate if they lose access to the single market.

We know team brexit won- that's why we're worried about the future of the country. The evidence so far is that we are right to be worried, instead of burying our heads in the sand and hoping it will all be OK by the time we pull it out.

Ent wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

rodders wrote:

Ent wrote:

rodders wrote:And I think that is a (one) major reason why we see such pro EU attitudes in Scotland and NI versus England.

Working class English people have become disconnected.

OK Wales has an assembly so that debunks the theory a bit, although they have less powers than Scotland and NI and perhaps are more influenced by England - West Wales was remain majority.

Yes you could say NI and Scotland have less issue with immigration but then if you look at many of the areas which voted leave they have low levels too.

The ni gov is useless. Mind you the biggest issue is about flying a flag 365 days a year vs only on public holidays.

That's it though, it isn't useless - it is a disaster at times, when certain contentious issues arise, but infinitely better for people than direct rule.

Absolutely, although I do think an element of "direct rule" is also required. You do need a strong centralised government to cover foreign policy, defence and to manage the UK economy as a whole, however they must also realise that in order to govern the whole UK they must also release power to local authorities and the devolved Parliaments - not as a means of apportioning blame (i.e. tell them to deliver the moon on a stick with no budget whatsoever and no powers to raise money) but as a means of allowing local people to influence local policies.

I agree some sort of half way house is needed.

Home rule is great in principle, not sure ni is doing a good job of it. Healthcare a disaster with one health minister after another doing nothing then resigning, education in bits. Always going back to Westminster looking for emergency funding.

I think that's the real issue, but I'm not sure incompetent local government is any worse than incompetent central government. The difference is that the central government as more assets to leverage, and therefore a bigger overdraft to call upon. They are also able to control fiscal policy, and can therefore raise money to deal with problems, whereas local government must currently go back cap in hand when things are mismanaged.

Still, the quality of local representatives does need to increase, but I suspect that'll improve should greater devolved powers be on the table.

Betting shops, fast-food outlets and tattoo parlours are the only businesses that will be better off post-Brexit. The English lower class will continue its degeneration, well supported by pseudo intellectual know-it-alls. What makes you think they suddenly want to take the jobs they didn't want to take before the Poles came?
But don't worry, rich a-hles and capitalist bastards will get along fine regardless, they just follow the money. I’m sure Branson will find a way around this as he doesn’t run a charity as far as I know.

And the relatively limited drop in British stocks compared to other major indices should be seen in relation to the devaluation of the Sterling vs other major currencies. Don’t let that fool you.

mikey_dragon wrote:No announcement of job cuts. The markets are recovering, wages are set to increase which is what Hannan alludes to. Before you reply, don't mention the Chinese investment deal (need to see the announcement from the Chinese investors rather than Branson's gob), as Virgin can't lose 3000 jobs that weren't even created. Carry on with the petty abuse sat behind your keyboards, I've been reading it for months, just remember that Team Brexit beat you in the vote .

No-one is abusing you so calm down. All you needed to say is that you don't believe Branson, you think that he is lying and therefore he is wrong and you are right. It seemed before that you had simply failed to read his entire statement.

As for the point on the markets, you are right to point out that they are recovering. But I think you should ask yourself why?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1358907/britain-set-to-open-immediate-trade-talks-with-australia-and-south-korea/

Hurrah, let's be global Britannia now that we're not tethered to a failing political project.

What does Jenna, 23, from Stoke think about that Duty.

Duty281 wrote:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1358907/britain-set-to-open-immediate-trade-talks-with-australia-and-south-korea/

Hurrah, let's be global Britannia now that we're not tethered to a failing political project.

That's good news. We'll be trading with Australia and South Korea, which we weren't as part of the EU. We'll extend our reach.

Duty281 wrote:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1358907/britain-set-to-open-immediate-trade-talks-with-australia-and-south-korea/

Hurrah, let's be global Britannia now that we're not tethered to a failing political project.

Good shout, because a trade deal with South Korea will do wonders for all these UK industries being shackled by the EU and create lots of British jobs for British people.

Words fail me at times