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Andre Ward (Contains Spoilers)

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Post by Mr Bounce on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 11:16 am

http://www.fightnews.com/Boxing/ward-dominates-brand-dull-fight-350087

Well that's no surprise that he won. I didn't watch it - I was sleeping. However, did he carry Brand so he could get some rounds in against an unheralded fighter from the division down that he probably should have stopped? It's almost inconceivable that the cards would not be a total shut out. However, is Ward rusty? Are his best years behind him? Surely he should have stopped Brand?

One thing we do know for sure is that despite his incredible skills, Andre will send most audiences into a coma. The man is DULL. However, let's not forget that Kovalev too had an indifferent night in his previous fight. Did they both go through the motions, knowing that the big event awaits them in November? Previous history has shown that the boxer generally comes undone against the puncher (Calzaghe vs Lacy springs to mind here, as does Rigo vs Donaire). However, it does only take one punch (see Tyson-Spinks or Jackson-Graham) and Kovalev is no one-dimensional slugger, as many have found out to their cost.

Their upcoming fight is still fascinating. Does Ward slip, spoil and counterpunch to a UD? Does Kovalev land a hail mary on Ward to take his "0"? All I can hope for is something for more worthwhile than the dross that both have served up recently. I'm still going with a late KO for Kovalev, but that's by no means certain.

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Post by Rowley on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 11:40 am

Have fancied Ward for this one and have not seen anything to dissuade me that. Whilst I share many of your frustrations with both his style and the glacial pace of his career thus far I think he is a genuine top tier talent. Kov is no one trick pony by any stretch but just think Ward is the kind of guy who can make you miss all night if he wishes and against a naturally bigger guy with genuine power I think we'll see the best version of Ward we have ever seen. Might not make for an exciting watch though.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 11:52 am

Mr Bounce wrote:http://www.fightnews.com/Boxing/ward-dominates-brand-dull-fight-350087

Well that's no surprise that he won. I didn't watch it - I was sleeping. However, did he carry Brand so he could get some rounds in against an unheralded fighter from the division down that he probably should have stopped? It's almost inconceivable that the cards would not be a total shut out. However, is Ward rusty? Are his best years behind him? Surely he should have stopped Brand?

One thing we do know for sure is that despite his incredible skills, Andre will send most audiences into a coma. The man is DULL. However, let's not forget that Kovalev too had an indifferent night in his previous fight. Did they both go through the motions, knowing that the big event awaits them in November? Previous history has shown that the boxer generally comes undone against the puncher (Calzaghe vs Lacy springs to mind here, as does Rigo vs Donaire). However, it does only take one punch (see Tyson-Spinks or Jackson-Graham) and Kovalev is no one-dimensional slugger, as many have found out to their cost.

Their upcoming fight is still fascinating. Does Ward slip, spoil and counterpunch to a UD? Does Kovalev land a hail mary on Ward to take his "0"? All I can hope for is something for more worthwhile than the dross that both have served up recently. I'm still going with a late KO for Kovalev, but that's by no means certain.

Taking nuthugging to a new level there bounce Wink

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 12:32 pm

Ward looking for one big shot

Can't remember one instance where he landed a combination of big punches

No wonder he doesn't get knockouts

He should have made a statement and he didn't

He won and won clearly but is he really the best fighter on the planet?? Kovalev beterbiev and many others would have murdered brand ggg would have also

Roll on November!

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 2:06 pm

Boxer usually beats the puncher but the oldest adage of them all a good big'un beats a good little'un.

Mind you looking at them ringside there didn't appear much of a size difference.

At least it's definitely going to happen honourable man Ward not a piece of sh1t like some others wasting people's time and effort and sh1tting on the fans.

Ward looked rusty to start but warmed into the fight that was a good workout for him would have done him a power of good doesn't mean much not being able to stop this South American the lad's never been stopped before veterans like that know how to survive. K0ing people isn't Ward's game anyway. But so far outboxing everyone who's been put in front of him most certainly is. But next up the best fighter he's ever faced. Likewise for Sergy. Winner to go p4p number one

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Post by Mr Bounce on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 6:06 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:http://www.fightnews.com/Boxing/ward-dominates-brand-dull-fight-350087

Well that's no surprise that he won. I didn't watch it - I was sleeping. However, did he carry Brand so he could get some rounds in against an unheralded fighter from the division down that he probably should have stopped? It's almost inconceivable that the cards would not be a total shut out. However, is Ward rusty? Are his best years behind him? Surely he should have stopped Brand?

One thing we do know for sure is that despite his incredible skills, Andre will send most audiences into a coma. The man is DULL. However, let's not forget that Kovalev too had an indifferent night in his previous fight. Did they both go through the motions, knowing that the big event awaits them in November? Previous history has shown that the boxer generally comes undone against the puncher (Calzaghe vs Lacy springs to mind here, as does Rigo vs Donaire). However, it does only take one punch (see Tyson-Spinks or Jackson-Graham) and Kovalev is no one-dimensional slugger, as many have found out to their cost.

Their upcoming fight is still fascinating. Does Ward slip, spoil and counterpunch to a UD? Does Kovalev land a hail mary on Ward to take his "0"? All I can hope for is something for more worthwhile than the dross that both have served up recently. I'm still going with a late KO for Kovalev, but that's by no means certain.

Taking nuthugging to a new level there bounce Wink
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 07 Aug 2016, 9:11 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:Ward looking for one big shot

Can't remember one instance where he landed a combination of big punches

No wonder he doesn't get knockouts

He should have made a statement and he didn't

He won and won clearly but is he really the best fighter on the planet?? Kovalev beterbiev and many others would have murdered brand ggg would have also

Roll on November!

I don't see any relevance to that really, Ward isn't a big puncher nor does he ever really go for knockouts.

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Post by hazharrison on Mon 08 Aug 2016, 2:00 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:Ward looking for one big shot

Can't remember one instance where he landed a combination of big punches

No wonder he doesn't get knockouts

He should have made a statement and he didn't

He won and won clearly but is he really the best fighter on the planet?? Kovalev beterbiev and many others would have murdered brand ggg would have also

Roll on November!

I don't see any relevance to that really, Ward isn't a big puncher nor does he ever really go for knockouts.

No, but he did once punch in combination, something he no longer does (and regardless of whether he's a big puncher, he should have stopped an opponent so clearly outclassed - a result that looked clearly within his reach - if he's the best fighter in the world).

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Post by Guest on Mon 08 Aug 2016, 8:32 am

Would suggest that neither Ward or Kovalev wanted to do anything to risk injury thus putting in jeopardy arguably the biggest fight of their careers to date.

Amazing how a fighter like Ward can be branded dull yet the same people criticizing him will w*nk themselves into a frenzy over the likes of Mayweather

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 10:07 am

This is unprecedented for a fighter to not attend the kick-off presser to his first ppv

Ok Rocnation informed Duva on Saturday that Ward wouldn't be attending which is a very strange decision on Ward's part and disrespectful to the promotion and Kovalev but here's the really funny part Rocnation speak to Duva on the phone just before presser starts to tell them they won't commit to the T-Mobile even though they've(Rocnation and Duva) had an agreement since June with the T-Mobile for Nov 19

wtf is going on

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Post by hazharrison on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 10:34 am

Duva suggested that the venue of the fight has become a sticking point (they'd previously agreed Vegas but Roc Nation aren't having it and so Duva believes they're attempting to exert some control and drag the fight back to Oakland).

Ward has insisted the fight will go ahead.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 10:39 am

I thought there was a provision in the contract that the fight can't be held in Oakland or Russia?

And how cheap of Rocnation not to have a rep at the presser

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Post by Guest on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 10:53 am

It's perhaps one of the most intriguing fights of the year along with Brook and GGG and no-one, not even the fighters appear to be interested.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 11:01 am

I see no lack of interest on Kovalev's part as yet, Dave

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Post by Guest on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 11:13 am

How do you know, no-one seems to be covering the damn thing. Granted it's not going to be the rip-roaring thrill a minute rollercoaster you get with Floyd, but at least someone might have something remotely interesting to say that isn't about themselves or how many strippers' wages they pay in an evening.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 12:00 pm

Maybe just Ward acting irrationally at the thought of having to fight outside Oakland

All I know is if this fight doesn't come off Ward is going to come out of it looking like a complete conman who's conned his way into easy defences the last few years and that promotional thing was a phoney and he ducked Froch in Nottingham and ducked Golovkin and has used Kovalev

Am sure it'll happen though and everything ironed out by the end of the week

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Post by Jermaine2015 on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 3:43 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote: he ducked Froch in Nottingham and ducked Golovkin and has used Kovalev

How did he duck Froch? He humiliated him with one arm and there was never any need to face Froch again...

Ggg wanted to fight at 164? Ward was the champion at 168, why should he have comedown to 164?

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Post by Guest on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 3:56 pm

When he agreed to fight Froch OUTSIDE Nottingham, the Cobra soon shut the f*ck up about Ward ducking him.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 4:04 pm

He refused to fight in Nottingham only in London that's how he ducked him weren't you following? Doesn't matter what happened in the first fight

GGG offered him 168 too but for a smaller share of the purse

Look I've always defended Ward in the past but if the Kovalev fight falls through now I'm done with him and you then have to question why his reign has been so garbage


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Post by Guest on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 4:13 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:He refused to fight in Nottingham only in London that's how he ducked him weren't you following? Doesn't matter what happened in the first fight

GGG offered him 168 too but for a smaller share of the purse

Look I've always defended Ward in the past but if the Kovalev fight falls through now I'm done with him and you then have to question why his reign has been so garbage

What, by agreeing to fight him? You seem to be a very special kind of stupid.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 4:23 pm

Sorry Dave that was directed at Germaine

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Post by 88Chris05 on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 4:56 pm

I’m not convinced that Froch ever fancied a second crack at Ward, really. Apart from a brief period after the Kessler rematch, Carl’s responses when the idea of a Ward return were put to him tended to be half-hearted at best.

I think in particular once the Bute fight propelled him to being something like a household name rather than just a guy known by sports fans he made much more of a point about the ‘right’ opponent being not just high class, but also a crowd pleaser, someone against whom his style could produce explosions etc., something he didn’t have the luxury of being so selective about beforehand. He said multiple times that, regardless of the result, a rematch with Ward would be dull, wouldn’t please the fans, wouldn’t really do anything for his status as the division’s money man etc.

Can’t really blame Froch for that. No shame in taking on Ward, putting up a creditable performance but ultimately being a little outclassed as he was in 2011. Likewise no shame in having no interest in pursuing him again when (as he’s subsequently admitted since retirement) he’d likely be taking another loss for less money than he might otherwise earn elsewhere, and at a time when he was right at the back end of his career and was already in a race against the clock to underline his credentials as a British great, too. Ward didn’t duck a Froch rematch, because basically there was no real will or desire from either side to make it happen.
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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 5:07 pm

Sorry it was a bit of a throwaway comment on my part to say Ward ducked him, was a reaction to my frustration at this fight seemingly not over the line yet and the problems are with Ward and Rocnation

Fair to say neither he nor Froch really wanted the fight and neither ducked the other

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 9:08 pm

Ward is notoriously difficult to deal with

Doubts over the kovalev fight now

Gets all the credit for the super six but that was more down to the European fighters agreeing

Since it he hasn't fought anyone

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 10:00 pm

Plenty of people have been saying for a long time Ward will find a way out of this fight

If it does fall through the picture will become clear and Ward's MO will be exposed

He asked for three tune ups as part of the deal to fight Golovkin, had two warm ups for Kovalev made 850k his last fight against a gimme not ranked in top 15

So it's make some nice money with the promise of it leading to the big one then find a way out of the final fight essentially leading the fans on and taking them for a ride(did he ever have any intention of fighting Golovkin?)

I think I'm just being paranoid though because honest I really have no doubt this is going to be resolved in the next few days otherwise Ward is going to look like the cont of conts which I don't believe he is. This has got me jittery though not turning up to your kick off presser your first ppv

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Post by catchweight on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 10:05 pm

Ward is the absolute drizzling sh1t to try and do business with. His opponents have to make all the sacrifices to get a fight done.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 10 Aug 2016, 10:22 pm

The fight is on HBO ppv so can't see it falling through

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Post by hazharrison on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 6:49 am

This is a great read:

https://theundefeated.com/features/andre-ward-fights-to-avoid-a-boxers-bad-ending/

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Post by Pedro147 on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 8:53 am

Worries that they may lose the venue for the fight.

http://www.boxingnewsonline.net/kovalev-ward-potentially-in-jeopardy/

MAIN Events, promoters for unified light heavyweight champion Sergey “Krusher” Kovalev (30-0-1, 26 KOs), were hoping to kick off their promotion this week of the highly anticipated fight between its brightest star and former super middleweight champion Andre Ward (30-0, 15 KOs). The bout is currently scheduled to take place on November 19th.

However, instead of the fight’s official launch party, media members in attendance at the presser were left with more questions than answers at an event more gawky than it was grandiose.

The dais consisted only of members of Team Kovalev, since Ward and company chose to opt out of the proceedings.

The absence of Andre Ward and Roc Nation management was glaring, with initial reports noting that they decided simply to not show up. Though, it was later clarified that Kathy Duva, Main Events chief, was notified last week that Ward would be unable to attend due to the recency of his last fight, which took place in Oakland less than 3 days before.

After a 90 minute delay, Kovalev spoke briefly about the fight and its importance before the conversation dramatically switched toward the issues that Duva’s side claims to be having with co-promoter Roc Nation Sports.

“Living hell is a pretty good description,” Main Events chief Kathy Duva answered when asked how she would describe her dealings with Roc Nation. “There’s a lot of nice people at Roc Nation but, unfortunately, the leadership in their company just is not capable of dealing in good faith.

“We’re trying and as far as I’m concerned we have a deal. We made a deal back in June to put the fight at the MGM. I don’t know what they want. I don’t know what this tactic is that they have employed in the last 48 hours. I can only come to the conclusion, perhaps, that there’s some problem with Andre Ward. I don’t know but I can only speculate. But we have an agreement and we will see to it that we all live up to it.”

Duva, visibly frustrated by the entire ordeal, cryptically referenced her company’s “sticking points” with Roc Nation, the biggest of which being a dispute regarding the proposed location of the event, which was previously reported as the T-Mobile Arena in Las Vegas, Nevada.

A representative of Sid Greenfieg, Vice President of Arena Booking at MGM Resorts International, owners of the arena, told Boxing News that “this morning (Wednesday) was the first I’d heard of this being an issue.”

If progress stalls on Kovalev-Ward, look for Top Rank to attempt a coup of the November 19th date for Manny Pacquiao’s comeback fight against Jessie Vargas.

Bob Arum already has November 5th earmarked at the Thomas & Mack Center, an arena at the University of Nevada’s Las Vegas campus. Moving the fight out of that location, which is dreadfully positioned two miles away from the strip, and into the flashy new T-Mobile arena in the midst of all the casinos is a tempting affair.

Duva, in an interview with UCN Live agrees. “Maybe they are trying to find a way to bully us into The Oracle (in Oakland)…My fear is, of course, you know Bob Arum wants to do a fight in Las Vegas on November 5th and he wants the November 19th date and if we lose our venue on the 19th, my fear is that we lose this date.”

Stipulations in their current agreement allegedly require that the fight take place in neutral territory but location has now become, seemingly, the biggest “sticking point.”

“There’s always a sticking point,” Duva said. “There will be a sticking point until they get in the ring and then I will be able to sit back and watch all of these months of hard work. At that point, Roc nation isn’t going to be able to do anything for Andre Ward anymore.”

We reached out to Main Events and Roc Nation for additional comment but have yet to receive a response.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 2:21 pm

Ward continuing to be a joke. Nobody knows him. Nobody cares for him. Nobody will pay good money to see him.

Finally gets a fight people might give a sh!t about and what does he do? Turn his back on the promo work.

What a prat. Especially if he's just trying to turn this into ANOTHER homer.

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Post by Guest on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 3:15 pm

I desperately want to like the guy but he makes it so damn difficult

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Thu 11 Aug 2016, 7:23 pm

I'm finally having my eyes opened to what a real champ is

They are the people who don't do everything to get the whole deck stacked in their favour

Real champions travel

Kovalev fought in Russia but had neutral officials

Ward had all his own officials in his home town

Great fighter but has never been up against it

That kessler fight was a disgrace to boxing

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 13 Aug 2016, 4:14 pm

No disrespect meant but Ward cleaned out super middle and beat the number 1 at 175....and he's not a real champion..

Whereas your hero has Cleverly as his best win and your other hero has fought nothing but stiffs for six years and is about to beat up a welter in a fight most experts across the pond are laughing at..

I mean come on...it's painful reading some of the crap on here.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Sat 13 Aug 2016, 11:43 pm

Ward didn't clean out 168

He got all the advantages in the super six got kessler and froch to travel to America and then didn't fight bute froch did

That's not cleaning out the division

Until he actually fights kovalev let's not pat him on the back

Kovalev has beaten everyone in the division and in emphatic fasion

As for ggg the whole division is ducking

Try again

Your post is embarrassing

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Sat 13 Aug 2016, 11:46 pm

America isn't the hot bed anymore more countries are competing and they can't cope

Live with the new reality

Everyone blasts Pacquiao but he travelled to America and made his name in a foreign country same with ggg and kovalev

Remind me how ward fighting in his back yard with his judges referee and every other diva advantage is more impressive??

Won't even fight on a level playing field

Floyd pulling all that bs about maidanas gloves

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 12:06 am

BoxingFan88 wrote:Ward didn't clean out 168

He got all the advantages in the super six got kessler and froch to travel to America and then didn't fight bute froch did

That's not cleaning out the division

Until he actually fights kovalev let's not pat him on the back

Kovalev has beaten everyone in the division and in emphatic fasion

As for ggg the whole division is ducking

Try again

Your post is embarrassing

Ward did clean out the division, at one point he had beaten every other champion in the division (Abraham, Froch and Bika).

Kovalev has hardly beaten everyone in the division now has he, he's beaten Hopkins, Pascal and Cleverley, at no point has he beaten either of the top dogs; Dawson or Stevenson.

It seems it's one rule for the one you like and another for the one you don't.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 12:06 am

BoxingFan88 wrote:America isn't the hot bed anymore more countries are  competing and they can't cope

Live with the new reality

Everyone blasts Pacquiao but he travelled to America and made his name in a foreign country same with ggg and kovalev

Remind me how ward fighting in his back yard with his judges referee and every other diva advantage is more impressive??

Won't even fight on a level playing field

Floyd pulling all that bs about maidanas gloves

Truly truly embarrassing post.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 12:35 am

Did he beat bute?

The ibf champ?

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 12:38 am

No he didn't, Froch got there first and destroyed him making a fight between the two totally meaningless.

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Post by hazharrison on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 3:24 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:Ward didn't clean out 168

He got all the advantages in the super six got kessler and froch to travel to America and then didn't fight bute froch did

That's not cleaning out the division

Until he actually fights kovalev let's not pat him on the back

Kovalev has beaten everyone in the division and in emphatic fasion

As for ggg the whole division is ducking

Try again

Your post is embarrassing

Ward did clean out the division, at one point he had beaten every other champion in the division (Abraham, Froch and Bika).

Kovalev has hardly beaten everyone in the division now has he, he's beaten Hopkins, Pascal and Cleverley, at no point has he beaten either of the top dogs; Dawson or Stevenson.

It seems it's one rule for the one you like and another for the one you don't.

Dawson hasn't been a player at 175 since the Stevenson fight. Stevenson remains the lineal champ but as we all know, no-one on 606 regards lineal championships as anything other than crap (including yourself).

So in the absence of that, Kovalev has looked like the top man at 175 over recent years with dominant wins over former light heavyweight kings Pascal and Hopkins (Stevenson has shown no inclination towards settling the question of superiority with the Russian).

Ward did become lineal champion at 168 with his win over Froch (although we don't do those here) - a fight between the legit two best '68ers in the world. The criticism of his manner of victories in achieving that (insipid and owing a good deal to home support) is valid.

Kovalev vs Ward isn't a fight between the two best at 175 (on paper) but probably is in reality. If Ward wins, I expect some on here will hail him a "two weight champion" whereas if Kovalev sparks Ward he'll still need to fight Stevenson!

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 10:51 am

The point was more that Ward did all he could to clean out 168lbs; Kessler, Froch, Bika, Green and Rodriquez were all top ten men when he beat them, the man missing is Bute but as i've said previously that fight meant nothing once he was manhandled by Froch.

Kovalev is probably just about the number one in the division but it's not a clear cut thing, he has the belts but Stevenson beat Dawson, I also don't buy into the idea that there's much difference in their opposition.

I can't say I particularly care if the winner is regarded as the 'man', it's a decent intriguing fight for a change just find the praise for Kovalev and dismissal of Ward to be very inconsistent.


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Post by hazharrison on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 11:03 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The point was more that Ward did all he could to clean out 168lbs; Kessler, Froch, Bika, Green and Rodriquez were all top ten men when he beat them, the man missing is Bute but as i've said previously that fight meant nothing once he was manhandled by Froch.

Kovalev is probably just about the number one in the division but it's not a clear cut thing, he has the belts but Stevenson beat Dawson, I also don't buy into the idea that there's much difference in their opposition.

I can't say I particularly care if the winner is regarded as the 'man', it's a decent intriguing fight for a change just find the praise for Kovalev and dismissal of Ward to be very inconsistent.


Ward became lineal champ/boss/kingpin (call it what you want) in beating Froch. I strongly doubt that would have occurred had The Super Six didn't facilitate that (which isn't a criticism of Ward for winning it, more a note on his matchmaking before and after the SS).

Stevenson remains that at 175, despite the fact he has taken that accolade hostage and shown no ambition to face Kovalev (a similar situation to Canelo and Golovkin - save for the fact Canelo has actually ditched both the belt and the division).

I don't think anyone - Kovalev included - is dismissing Ward as a fighter. People don't like the fact he's a control freak who always seems to have home advantage. It's a valid criticism.


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 11:07 am

So...Ward beat Froch but he probably didn't want to fight him..ok.

Geez.... Rolling Eyes

Pitiful..


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Post by hazharrison on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 11:17 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:So...Ward beat Froch but he probably didn't want to fight him..ok.

Geez.... Rolling Eyes

Pitiful..


More the other way around - don't think Froch would have bothered with Ward if he didn't have to (and certainly not in the US). Ward certainly wouldn't have travelled.

You can write your incredibly witty put downs all you like - don't see that one happening without SS.


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 11:26 am

Carry on debating with Hammer..But fairplay and all that...

I can't debate a guy that diminishes Ward and tells us all to get behind a guy who has fought nothing but average opposition for six years because "He's a real fighter"..

I don't much want to either..

But like I said fairplay..All about opinions..

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Post by hazharrison on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 11:35 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Carry on debating with Hammer..But fairplay and all that...

I can't debate a guy that diminishes Ward and tells us all to get behind a guy who has fought nothing but average opposition for six years because "He's a real fighter"..

I don't much want to either..

But like I said fairplay..All about opinions..

I haven't diminished Ward as a fighter - not here, not previously. You'd make a great copy editor.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 11:41 am

Saying they wouldn't have fought were it not for the super six is pure conjecture and totally irrelevant considering they did fight, why they did isn't really important.

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Post by hazharrison on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 11:49 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Saying they wouldn't have fought were it not for the super six is pure conjecture and totally irrelevant considering they did fight, why they did isn't really important.

Ward's matchmaking and career choices have been abysmal outside of the Super Six. That was my point. It's great he proved himself top man at 168 (so few fighters actually achieve that these days) but had he not entered (and he very nearly wasn't picked - both he and Dirrell were 10-1 shots seen to be making the numbers up) I doubt he'd have managed it. My point is, he often seems to shoot himself in the foot with regard to his career progression.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 11:53 am

It's a sign of the times, if he can get $850k for fighting guys like Smith or Brand then it's no wonder he's so hard to negotiate with, the whole system is broken.

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Post by hazharrison on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 1:00 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It's a sign of the times, if he can get $850k for fighting guys like Smith or Brand then it's no wonder he's so hard to negotiate with, the whole system is broken.

Indeed. Yet to criticise the same era is seen as an affront – some form of unjust bias.

There are some on here who feel that Ward is a great fighter (maybe even an ATG – perish the thought). At present, that doesn’t hold up. He’s won one world championship (lineal) and completed a pretty undistinguished championship reign at 168.
His best wins to date are over Kessler, Froch and Dawson (who was severely compromised in having to make 168 – his fault rather than Ward’s) – three good but not great fighters. Only Dawson was ever a lineal/true/legit/call-it-what-you-want divisional boss.

How good was the Super Six win? Very good but it came with a caveat: he was the only original contestant who had home advantage throughout.

Let’s look at the benefit provided by home advantage:

Froch W3, L2 (both losses away from home).
Kessler W1 L 1 (lost away from home).
Taylor W0 L1 (lost away from home).
Abraham W1 L3 (lost three away from home – one on neutral ground).
Green W0 L2 (both in US – one in Oakland, Ward’s patch).
Dirrell W 1 L 1 (lost away from home).
Johnson W1 L1 (lost in US).
Ward W4 L0 (all four wins in US – two in Oakland, another in Cali).

That would suggest home advantage was massive (the only two fights Froch ever lost; Kessler also lost all three of his career defeats on the road).
Since then he beat Dawson at 168 (which would have meant so much more up at 175 – where Dawson was lineal champ) and a series of overmatched opponents. I'll go out on a limb: there isn't much between his three best wins and Kovalev's (Pascal x2 and Hopkins - former lineal champs both).

He deserves a huge amount of credit for taking the Kovalev fight but, in all likelihood, if he wins I’m expecting an unsatisfactory outmanoeuvring of the Russian rather than a spirited performance that will live on in the mind. Ward is obsessed with control and only doing what he needs to win.
Technically, Ward is an excellent fighter. He just doesn’t have enough on his record to substantiate some of the effusive praise I see written about him. He isn’t as good as a Jones (his hero incidentally) for example.

And to save Truss going in on Golovkin (he’s predictable, if nothing else) then I’ll head him off: Ward’s opposition trumps Golovkin’s all ends up. The entire division has run from Golovkin for years and he’s been left to pick up what’s left. The Brook fight is a financial decision – a make-do fight after Eubank became difficult and Hearn tried to flex his muscles. I do sympathise but at the end of the day (and GGG has at least been willing to travel wherever, whenever), we’ll look back on lineal championships (well, some of us), great wins and great performances. Golovkin hasn’t any of those.

Today’s fighters either don’t want to fight often, can’t fight those they’d like or choose low-risk, high-reward fights. As Garcia’s father stated on a prospective fight between Keith Thurman and Shawn Porter: “Why would they fight each other when they could fight a Salka? It’s about the bank being loaded. That’s why Oscar is at where’s he at right now. I don’t want you to misunderstand this, but sometimes it’s not about the glory, it’s about the paper…”

There’s some validity to that but it comes with a flipside: you can’t fight the Salkas of this world fairly regularly and then claim you’re an ATG.

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