Edinburgh v Scarlets, 9 September

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Edinburgh v Scarlets
Friday 9 September 2016
KO: 19:35
BT Murrayfield

Live on BBC Alba

Referee: Andrew Brace (IRFU, 13th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Sean Gallagher (IRFU), Graeme Ormiston (SRU)
Citing Commissioner: Iain Goodall (SRU)
TMO: Olly Hodges (IRFU)


Edinburgh Rugby

Glenn Bryce, Michael Allen, Sasa Tofilau, Phil Burleigh, Tom Brown, Duncan Weir, Nathan Fowles, Rory Sutherland, Ross Ford, WP Nel, Ben Toolis, Grant Gilchrist (capt), Jamie Ritchie, John Hardie, Magnus Bradbury.

Replacements: Stuart McInally, Allan Dell, Kevin Bryce, Fraser McKenzie, Hamish Watson, Sam Hidalgo-Clyne, Blair Kinghorn, Solomoni Rasolea

Scarlets

Liam Williams, Hadleigh Parkes, Jonathan Davies, Scott Williams, Steff Evans, Rhys Patchell, Aled Davies; Wyn Jones, Ken Owens (capt), Werner Kruger, Jake Ball, David Bulbring, Aaron Shingler, James Davies, John Barclay.

Replacements: Ryan Elias, Luke Garrett, Peter Edwards, Tadhg Beirne, Josh Macleod, Gareth Davies, Dan Jones, Aled Thomas.

Couple of lucky scores from Edinburgh.

Well shaky start, but rather enjoyed the last 10 / 15 minutes!

Always a delight to see Liam Williams man sausage up.

And speaking of man sausage ups, cant get over that last try. So much wrong from both sides.
Edinburgh to lose the ball initially, the Scarlets opting to punt it infield rather than take contact then end the half, then Edinburgh's decision to meekly grubber it back, and again the Scarlets refusal to simply dink it over the toucline & end the half instead trying to go long & ultimately handing Bradbury a try on a plate!!!

Na the chip was perfect for the score. thats a good try. The second a result of pressure but yes it was a bit lucky

Between Michael Allen and Tommy Seymour, you Scots are doing very well out of the Ulster Academy

Oh and Rory Scholes- a whole back three of Ulster Academy graduates starting for the Scottish teams nowadays.

Notch wrote:Between Michael Allen and Tommy Seymour, you Scots are doing very well out of the Ulster Academy

Oh and Rory Scholes- a whole back three of Ulster Academy graduates starting for the Scottish teams nowadays.

Well if you don't use them, you lose them!

Fair play to the three of them for backing themselves to succeed elsewhere. I like that kind of confidence.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

jimbopip wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I always find that jokes that only Sky TV users will understand are the best kind of jokes!

Luckily I am out at the boozer tonight, and given that it is a London boozer I highly doubt they will be showing the game.

Aye and FES won't be there because it's Mrs Fes's birthday.


Isn't it a bit early in the season for the old Rattus Rattus to be disembarking from the leaky liner?

I also live in London now...

Yes RDW, we have all read the Icelandic Saga that is your quest for a new home. But even in that London you could watch on the tellybox. Even I'm watching it, though fecc knows why.

Duncan Weir definitely demonstrating that Edinburgh have been missing a FH for the past few seasons!

Weir is awesome, Glen Bryce is awful. Michael Allen having a very good game as well

I see Ross Ford has returned to his usual self as well.

That is a Frak nonsense

cakeordeath wrote:That is a Frak nonsense

what? the high tackle not being a pen try? there was another player to make the tackle who might have prevented the try. Right decision if lucky for Edinburgh

Thats a good win for Edinburgh. their defence snuffed out the Scarlets attack and Weir played the territory well. That and Edinburgh forwards reacting to the ref and seeing he was going to give "holding on" easily so going for the turnovers.

Not the greatest of games but a win is a win and the defensive effort will give a lot of confidence

Well it was hardly a classic but suggestions that Solly has lost the dressing room look a little wide of the mark. There was no shortage of effort from Edinburgh who definitely wanted it more and stuff to build on.

Duncan Weir a deserved MoM and brought a bit of control to the chaos. Bradbury showed us what we suspected, that he is a very good player in the making. Michael Allen was the surprise package though, with good composure in attack and defence. You can see why he started in front of Scholes.

Stuff to build on, but a lot still to do!

The TMO worked really hard to make sure Scarlets did not get a pen try, in fact he tried to justify not even an obvious dangerous high tackle and neck roll, shocking, if it was left the the ref the correct decision would have been made.

This demonstrates not having homer TMO and officials.

Nonsense.  there was a player who could have got the tackle made - unlikely but possible so no pen try is the right decision.  TMO is neutral.  IRFU in this case.
Pen trys are only given if the ref / tmo is sure a try would have been scored if not for the foul.  The couldn't be sure because of the Edinburgh 6.  also not a neck roll not a dangerous high tackle hence no yellow card.

Yes a try would probably have been scored if the player making the high tackle is taken out of the equation but thats not good enough for a penalty try as the ref must be sure a try would have been scored

Something seriously wrong at Scarlets. With all these players they should at least be scoring a try against 13 men. Ref or not, there are no excuses with the players at their disposal. In fact if you ask me Edinburgh were rubbish, but Scarlets were even worse.

There is something rotten to the core in west Wales, almost like Cardiff Blues a few seasons ago. I expect mikey_dragon to be all over this thread, the Scarlets thread and the Dragons thread in the morning ripping pieces out of this abject performance.

That was never a penalty try. Probably 8 times out of ten it probably would not even have been a penalty and hardly ever in previous seasons. Ok the laws have changed but how do you try and stop someone that close to the line, it was not dangerous, he certainly did not go in high and was trying to hold him up.

I can live with the penalty but not a PT or a card.

LordDowlais wrote:.................. In fact if you ask me Edinburgh were rubbish, but Scarlets were even worse.

...............

about sums it up. Two bald men fighting over a comb.

LordDowlais wrote:Something seriously wrong at Scarlets. With all these players they should at least be scoring a try against 13 men. Ref or not, there are no excuses with the players at their disposal. In fact if you ask me Edinburgh were rubbish, but Scarlets were even worse.

There is something rotten to the core in west Wales, almost like Cardiff Blues a few seasons ago. I expect mikey_dragon to be all over this thread, the Scarlets thread and the Dragons thread in the morning ripping pieces out of this abject performance.

It is a bit odd and you are right in saying that Edinburgh did not play well, even if they did show a lot of heart and desire, that is only going to take them so far.

A lot of us had Scarlets down as contenders this season. They won't be and it will be a long season if they keep playing like that!

Anyway, it is only round two and plenty of chances to sort things out still. One more bad loss though and alarm bells really will be ringing!

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:.................. In fact if you ask me Edinburgh were rubbish, but Scarlets were even worse.

...............

about sums it up.  Two bald men fighting over a comb.

Yep good thing I have my SKY box and I can switch channels.

Anyway, I am off to the Wern tomorrow, my home town club are playing the mighty Cardiff. No decent Pro12 games in Wales this weekend. Didn't fancy Dragons against Zebre.

Oooops, Reading have a pen in the 5th minute of injury time.

Speak to you all in 5 mins.

The Scarlets wing should have scored by just running straight and going low. G Davies was poor again tonight as he was last week, I think the Blues did well to get shot of Pratchell.


The Scarlets are going to let the pro12 down again in Europe they will lose every game again on this form.

TJ wrote:

cakeordeath wrote:That is a Frak nonsense

what?  the high tackle not being a pen try?  there was another player to make the tackle who might have prevented the try.  Right decision if lucky for Edinburgh

Personally I think it was a wrong call. It was not a high tackle, it rode up. However, if it was a high tackle then I can't work out how it wasn't a yellow and a pen try as Evans only had to fall to ground the ball. So all in all I think it balanced out.

20- fraking 9 for a team full of internationals?! How bloody hopeless can you get? I pointed this out weeks ago and got dismissed as a hater yet now everyone is saying it. One eyed Turks strike again.

scarlet - as above - it wasn't certain the foul tackle prevented the try as another player came in to help. probable yes but certain no. so correct decision by the laws if somewhat harsh

Feck me mike, I thought you were going to Rodney Parade tonight to watch Dragons. Did you not go ? LP was even offering a free ticket.

LordDowlais wrote:Something seriously wrong at Scarlets. With all these players they should at least be scoring a try against 13 men. Ref or not, there are no excuses with the players at their disposal. In fact if you ask me Edinburgh were rubbish, but Scarlets were even worse.

There is something rotten to the core in west Wales, almost like Cardiff Blues a few seasons ago. I expect mikey_dragon to be all over this thread, the Scarlets thread and the Dragons thread in the morning ripping pieces out of this abject performance.

If you can not execute the very basics of the game, like passing and catching, then to be fair you don't deserve to be in the game. Last week we saw Foxy putting passes in to nobody, and today we watched the majority of the team decide to do the same. I'm not sure what is going on, as the players are better than that. The opposition this week, and last, has to deal with the same weather conditions so that can't be blamed. And I don't even think the coaches can really be blamed, as they should really have to drill the players on how to throw/receive as pass.

All I know is that for once, however much people ridicule the Scarlets, I can't bring myself to defend them.

Wtf you going on about now Andy? 39 years old mind and still posting these child-like comments .

TJ wrote:scarlet - as above - it wasn't certain the foul tackle prevented the try as another player came in to help.  probable yes but certain no.  so correct decision by the laws if somewhat harsh

I honestly can not see how there was any way the flanker could've made the ground required to have made the tackle (as technically you must pretend the fouling player is not there), but based on our game, I think a realistic arguement could've been made for Steff fumbling the ball if he did try to ground it

ScarletSpiderman wrote:All I know is that for once, however much people ridicule the Scarlets, I can't bring myself to defend them.

Unfortunately I think it's the same infection that Cardiff Blues had two seasons ago before there were big changes. Scarlets have the best squad in Wales, besides Wales. The only excuse they have, is early season rustiness, but that will only carry them so far, and going pointless in Europe again this season should not be excepted.

mikey_dragon wrote:Wtf you going on about now Andy? 39 years old mind and still posting these child-like comments .

Well you said you were going to watch Dragons, or at least, had a ticket. Yet within a hairs breath of the final whistle you are in here tearing strips off Scarlets. You are quite the fibber aren't you ?

So is the game worth watching in full or just the highlights?

Who played well for Edinburgh?

Stats make interesting reading - Scarlets had more of the ball and did more with it apart from scoring. Edinburgh made several good goal line stands.

RDW_Scotland wrote:So is the game worth watching in full or just the highlights?

Who played well for Edinburgh?

Not really worth watching.  Weir played well and was MOM.  Hardie put in his usual shift of the good and the bad.  Bradbury looked OK allen a decent game as well

RDW_Scotland wrote:So is the game worth watching in full or just the highlights?

Who played well for Edinburgh?

From what I saw of it, I would only watch the highlights, if you have a spare 60 seconds. Hardie probably was the stand out player though.

RDW_Scotland wrote:So is the game worth watching in full or just the highlights?

Who played well for Edinburgh?

For Edinburgh fans, I would imagine that a win is always worth watching!

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Wtf you going on about now Andy? 39 years old mind and still posting these child-like comments .

Well you said you were going to watch Dragons, or at least, had a ticket. Yet within a hairs breath of the final whistle you are in here tearing strips off Scarlets. You are quite the fibber aren't you ?

No I'm not. It seems you're unaware of when the game actually ended (well over an hour ago now) and 21st century technology. I thought I mentioned earlier but perhaps not, but you should stop trying to guess what I'm doing 24/7 whilst sat there up in sunny Merthyr. Tearing strips off Scarlets? It seems I'm just reiterating what some others have already written - I haven't watched the game but I think I'll give it a miss. Why is it that others can say this but I can't? You're really like a dog on heat around my posts today Andy, and when called up you just continue to post more childish drivel in addition to posting about me in articles when I'm not even commenting. It's not funny it's just irritating. Surely there comes a point when you say "maybe I should stop embarrassing myself now" no?

would you two get a room please?

Good old mikey.

Of course you went to the game.

I believe you.

mikey, you are the gift thst keeps on giving. I should have known, you did go to the game, but had to get home before your curfew, or mam and dad would not be happy.

Good night mikey, I will argue with you on Monday, I have busy rest of the weekend. Us adults have adult things to do see.

You posted something similar on the dragons thread today Andy, at least try and vary your shoite material. You're not funny and you have posters from multiple nations that take issue with your daft, cretinous comments with examples from this past week alone. Grow up ffs, it's not big or clever!

Any chance you two could just ignore each other or foe each other?

TJ wrote:Nonsense.  there was a player who could have got the tackle made - unlikely but possible so no pen try is the right decision.  TMO is neutral.  IRFU in this case.
Pen trys are only given if the ref / tmo is sure a try would have been scored if not for the foul.  The couldn't be sure because of the Edinburgh 6.  also not a neck roll not a dangerous high tackle hence no yellow card.

Yes a try would probably have been scored if the player making the high tackle is taken out of the equation but thats not good enough for a penalty try as the ref must be sure a try would have been scored

That doesn't matter, that's not how the law should be applied. The law should have been upheld, which in a situation like this, the offending player is removed completely from the pitch, as if they are not there, in which case a try would have been scored, particularly when the law in this case only requires the likelihood/probable scoring of a try.

TJ wrote:scarlet - as above - it wasn't certain the foul tackle prevented the try as another player came in to help.  probable yes but certain no.  so correct decision by the laws if somewhat harsh

One eyed as opposed to the blind oracle that is Sainty?

Check the laws - my understanding is "probable" is not enough. the ref has to be certain a try would have been scored if not for the offending player. In this case there was another player available to make the tackle. so it was not certain a try would have been scored if the offending player is taken out of the play.

TJ wrote:Check the laws - my understanding is "probable" is not enough.  the ref has to be certain a try would have been scored if not for the offending player.  In this case there was another player available to make the tackle.  so it was not certain a try would have been scored if the offending player is taken out of the play.

That is a physical impossibility. They is no way to be certain that something could happen. To be certain that Steff would have scored rules out the player tackling him, Steff going out of bound, or even dropping the ball.

if its the last defender who makes the illegal tackle and you remove him from the game then its certain a try would have been scored. In this case the player making the foul was not the last defender. So no penalty try. Thats the way I understand it works

TJ wrote:Check the laws - my understanding is "probable" is not enough.  the ref has to be certain a try would have been scored if not for the offending player.  In this case there was another player available to make the tackle.  so it was not certain a try would have been scored if the offending player is taken out of the play.

Exactly, as SS alluded to above, the player could fumble it an inch above the ground: there is no certainity when guessing whether a try will be scored, so you can only ever work on likelihood. It is very much the law that- once the offending player is taken from the pitch in this scenario- if it is probable or likely that the player in possession will score, as you yourself have repeatedly said was the case, then the try should be given.

The scandal here, if there is one, is that the TMO has had a shocker, overruling the ref not once but twice, and it does no good for the game when you have a quite clear split in how the law is being interpreted, in this case with regards to what constitutes a high tackle, and whether or not a player is more likely to score than to be tackled. This isn't really a common enough occurrence to be a problem, per se, but it has happened in the past, and that's the most blatant display of a TMO leading a ref away from their interpretation of law and into their own that I have seen for a while. The TMO should just display the images the ref asks for, and particularly when you have a ref last night who was so quick to back down on his interpretation, it doesn't do any good to have that many dissenting voices officiating the game. There's a difference between taking advice from the benefit of recorded images, and simply deferring to the viewpoint of a man sat in a truck outside the stadium. Last night was the latter.

That said, it in no way excuses or changes the performance and result last night. Scarlets were awful. There's a serious hangover from last season going on, and it may take until the European games for them to shake it off.

TJ wrote:if its the last defender who makes the illegal tackle and you remove him from the game then its certain a try would have been scored.  In this case the player making the foul was not the last defender.  So no penalty try.  Thats the way I understand it works

The issue is the Edinburgh flanker only became the last man once Steff Evans had been held up by the offending player, illegally. You remove him from the field of play so he's not able to slow down the attacking player, and you go on the basis of the effect of the offending player- i.e. the slowing down of the attacker, enabling support to come into play- not being made. So, you take the position of the covering Edinburgh defender from the moment the offending Edinburgh player touches Evans (perhaps even before), not- as I think the TMO was judging it on- after several seconds of Evans being driven to the touchline by his neck. The whole decision came down to that last image, which saw Evans in the air being driven to touch, the Edinburgh flanker coming round the back of the 'tackle' to help, and on that basis it appeared there was cover. Which is not the way the law should be applied.

RDW_Scotland wrote:So is the game worth watching in full or just the highlights?

Who played well for Edinburgh?

I'd give it a miss if I was you.

Hardie looked ok, front row did their job, weir was OK. No real standouts.

Well I decided to watch the game anyway!

There is certainly a lot of work to do but I thought across the board there was a big step up in performance. Not difficult I know...

Two huge work ons for this week though - lineout and rucks. The lineout was a total shambles and even when we win the ball it was rarely clean ball. The drill just wasn't working and at times it looked like the Scarlets had thrown in, not us!

And I know we were up against 2 of the best fetchers in the league but our rucking technique was poor and we should have had a strategy to deal with it.

Individually Weir had a good game and Burleigh brought the extra control that we were hoping for.

Gilchrist I thought had a good game - he looked up for it and more like his former self. The young backrows also really stepped up which was good to see.

So if last week was a 2/10 this week was probably a 6 - much better but still a long way to go. I'm yet to see anything to persuade me that we're going to be a Top 6 team though.

Final word on the Scarlets - it was a very close game and 2 real howlers lost them the game! Our try just before halftime will have driven the coaches crazy - madness not to kick it out.