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England's Autumn selections

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Post by kingelderfield Wed 14 Sep 2016, 9:30 pm

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 12th November
England vs South Africa
Twickenham

Saturday 19th November
England vs Fiji
Twickenham

Saturday 26th November
England vs Argentina
Twickenham

Saturday 3rd December
England vs Australia
Twickenham

Obviously we're not playing New Zealand, but it's the other 3/4 of the Rugby Championship plus Fiji for good measure.

So given form and fitness who's going to make our starting 15 / 23?

No Haskell, but we will have Hughes. Neither Farrell, Tuilagi and Brown have played yet and injuries are certain to intervene for others to lose out or benefit as happens.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 11 Oct 2016, 10:28 am

He's already had that first cap vs Argentina last time and the trouble is it'll be the saem response. Arg were weak, it doesn't prove anything, too much of a risk vs SA etc.

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Post by Cyril Tue 11 Oct 2016, 10:30 am

The current injury situation with wingers makes Ashton's (latest) moment of stupidity all the more galling. This really could have been his chance to get back in the squad.

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Post by propdavid_london Tue 11 Oct 2016, 10:45 am

Argentina are anything by weak at the moment - England will have to pick as strong a team as they can when they play them in November.

The tour to Argentina during the Lions next season is another matter - largely a developmental squad will tour for England and I would expect Wade to travel then.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 11 Oct 2016, 10:53 am

Yes sorry was thinking it was meant as the tour. We have Figi before the Argies as well?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 11 Oct 2016, 10:54 am

And not too convinced by Argentina yet.

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Post by beshocked Tue 11 Oct 2016, 11:05 am

yappysnap wrote:Yep Goode is injured also.

Couldn't we play Wade next summer on the tour to Arg? Getting his first cap against SA seems slightly unfair, and Eddie isn't forgiving, we don't want him going the way of Harrison/Burrell.

Burrell hasn't been helped by Saints (Jim Mallinder) who still believe their best centre partnership is Burrell-Pisi not Mallinder-Burrell.

England needs a top class 12, H.Mallinder's development is being hampered by his own father.

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Post by Gooseberry Tue 11 Oct 2016, 11:15 am

beshocked wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Yep Goode is injured also.

Couldn't we play Wade next summer on the tour to Arg? Getting his first cap against SA seems slightly unfair, and Eddie isn't forgiving, we don't want him going the way of Harrison/Burrell.

Burrell hasn't been helped by Saints (Jim Mallinder) who still believe their best centre partnership is Burrell-Pisi not Mallinder-Burrell.

England needs a top class 12, H.Mallinder's development is being hampered by his own father.

Burrell was mostly not helped by being selected at 12 and being rubbish at 12.
He did only get his chance in the first place as injury cover and was never really a "first name on the team sheet" kinda guy, more a handy squad guy to cover for Tuillagi and JJ

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Post by beshocked Tue 11 Oct 2016, 11:20 am

Gooseberry wrote:
beshocked wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Yep Goode is injured also.

Couldn't we play Wade next summer on the tour to Arg? Getting his first cap against SA seems slightly unfair, and Eddie isn't forgiving, we don't want him going the way of Harrison/Burrell.

Burrell hasn't been helped by Saints (Jim Mallinder) who still believe their best centre partnership is Burrell-Pisi not Mallinder-Burrell.

England needs a top class 12, H.Mallinder's development is being hampered by his own father.

Burrell was mostly not helped by being selected at 12 and being rubbish at 12.
He did only get his chance in the first place as injury cover and was never really a "first name on the team sheet" kinda guy, more a handy squad guy to cover for Tuillagi and JJ  

I would say that Burrell was more than just a squad guy to cover Tuilagi in the 2014 6 nations, I thought he was one of the best English players at 13.

He seems better suited to 13. Especially if he partnered Mallinder.

He ran excellent lines and showed good physicality at 13.

JJ wasn't even in the mix at the time.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 11 Oct 2016, 11:46 am

Think Joseph was injured wasn't he? From memory he was called up for the AIs before dropping out. Was that where Tomkins was tried disastrously?

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Post by beshocked Tue 11 Oct 2016, 12:22 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think Joseph was injured wasn't he? From memory he was called up for the AIs before dropping out. Was that where Tomkins was tried disastrously?

Well Joseph still wasn't proven. As for Tomkins he was the initial RL recruit to be tried by Lancaster then unceremoniously drop out of rugby union and return to rugby league... before Lancaster's even greater gamble - Burgess.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 11 Oct 2016, 12:27 pm

Still wish he'd stuck around, would be nailing that 6 shirt by now.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 11 Oct 2016, 1:12 pm

Wade would certainly get tested physically v Fiji...put him in for that game. Up against that monster...Nadolo...but the mistakes might not quite be so costly....if he makes any!

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Post by TightHEAD Tue 11 Oct 2016, 1:22 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Still wish he'd stuck around, would be nailing that 6 shirt by now.

who?
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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 11 Oct 2016, 1:48 pm

Sam Burgess....

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Post by TightHEAD Tue 11 Oct 2016, 1:56 pm

I guess that's who he meant, If so he didn't want to play No6.
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Post by Fluxy Tue 11 Oct 2016, 2:05 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Wade would certainly get tested physically v Fiji...put him in for that game. Up against that monster...Nadolo...but the mistakes might not quite be so costly....if he makes any!

I agree, put in him against Fiji, not too much to lose in this game. If his form warrants it from the Fiji fixture, maintain Wade in the shirt for the Argentina game and then likewise with Australia.

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Post by propdavid_london Tue 11 Oct 2016, 2:25 pm

Is Wade even in the EPS? How much wiggle room is there for EJ?

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Post by beshocked Tue 11 Oct 2016, 2:44 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Still wish he'd stuck around, would be nailing that 6 shirt by now.

Not convinced by that.

Robshaw has been maligned but he has staying power in the England backrow. Contenders have come on and gone and yet Robshaw is still there.


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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 11 Oct 2016, 2:50 pm

That's because Robshaw is both class and underrated!

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Post by king_carlos Tue 11 Oct 2016, 2:51 pm

Jonny May
Jack Nowell
Semesa Rokoduguni
Anthony Watson
Marland Yarde

Those are the wingers in the 45-man EPS. Nowell and Watson are already out for the AIs with May yet to return after more than year injured.

EJ will need to call up injury replacements and I'd presume that Wade will be high up the list having gone on the Saxons tour with Roko (now promoted) and Alex Lewington (now playing in the Championship).

Lewington could be an interesting test of EJ picking players he 'sees something in' rather than just on their performances in club rugby. Lewington seems like more his type of winger than Wade so if he views him as good enough he might call him up despite not playing Prem rugby at the moment.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 11 Oct 2016, 2:58 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:That's because Robshaw is both class and underrated!

Agreed GF. With the flanker options left I'd happily see Robshaw-Itoje playing left-right respectively.

1.Mako 2.George 3.Cole 4.Launchbury 5.Kruis 6.Itoje 7.Robshaw 8.Billy

For the Fiji game I'd be interested to see EJ trial Launchbury and Itoje in the second row with Itoje calling the line-out (Kruis on the bench) to see how it functions. If Hughes or Beaumont were in the back row they'd offer an extra jumper to take some pressure off, as well as getting to see how they go around the field as well.

1.Marler 2.George 3.Hill 4.Launchbury 5.Kruis 6.Robshaw 7.Kvesic 8.Hughes/Beaumont

I can't see that happening but just thinking out loud because it's a slow day!!

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Post by beshocked Tue 11 Oct 2016, 3:02 pm

Geordiefalcon not sure Robshaw is underrated, just the media have been fixated on two captaincy decisions by Robshaw when he did the opposite in the 2nd one and was still panned for his decision.

Also a decent player doesn't necessarily make a decent captain (he was okay but there are better options).

I'd like to see Wade get a go too. Sure I'd worry the SA team would run him over but then again English wingers aren't generally famed for their defence.

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Post by Poorfour Tue 11 Oct 2016, 3:05 pm

I thought Eddie had told Beaumont he was a lock? An Itoje/Beaumont combination would be very handy, if a little light on bulk.

Robshaw divides opinion, but I find it telling that everyone who's actually coached him is a strong supporter - even people like Eddie who have been negative about him before coaching him.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 11 Oct 2016, 3:06 pm

TightHEAD wrote:I guess that's who he meant, If so he didn't want to play No6.

Did he not? Didn't hear or read that. He looked very good at 6, and very mediocre at 12.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 11 Oct 2016, 3:07 pm

beshocked wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Still wish he'd stuck around, would be nailing that 6 shirt by now.

Not convinced by that.

Robshaw has been maligned but he has staying power in the England backrow. Contenders have come on and gone and yet Robshaw is still there.


At 7 maybe. Though no one really got a chance. Same as at 6 currently, but Burgess ain't here anymore.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 11 Oct 2016, 3:19 pm

Poorfour wrote:I thought Eddie had told Beaumont he was a lock?

If he has then Diamond doesn't seem to agree!

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Post by beshocked Tue 11 Oct 2016, 3:24 pm

Why on earth would Beaumont need to play lock when there's Launchbury,Kruis,Itoje and Lawes who can all play there?

Back up for Billy on the other hand is still up for grabs.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue 11 Oct 2016, 4:08 pm

beshocked wrote:Why on earth would Beaumont need to play lock when there's Launchbury,Kruis,Itoje and Lawes who can all play there?

Back up for Billy on the other hand is still up for grabs.

We have some crazy options at lock. But im not convinced by Beaumont to be honest. Think we have better options at 8/6

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 11 Oct 2016, 4:32 pm

I'm not predicting this, because it's borderline absurd, but it'd be amusing if Jones decided to cover wing and inside centre options by calling up Banahan.

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Post by beshocked Tue 11 Oct 2016, 4:38 pm

Rugby fan with the lack of options at 12 and the injuries to wingers it's not that absurd.

Banahan is in good form at least, I'd pick him over Teo.

Plus you never know - just as Jones and co made the most out of Haskell's physicality, Jones and co might well be able to use Banahan's size as a strength.

The amusing thing is that Teo is yet another RL player fast tracked into England RU to play centre.

History repeating itself.

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Post by yappysnap Tue 11 Oct 2016, 6:38 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:I'm not predicting this, because it's borderline absurd, but it'd be amusing if Jones decided to cover wing and inside centre options by calling up Banahan.

I thought you were going To suggest him for 6/8 cover! Now that would be absurd...

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Post by lostinwales Tue 11 Oct 2016, 7:56 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Wade would certainly get tested physically v Fiji...put him in for that game. Up against that monster...Nadolo...but the mistakes might not quite be so costly....if he makes any!

Nadolo might struggle to tackle Wade too...

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Post by beshocked Wed 12 Oct 2016, 9:52 am

It would show a lack of faith in Wade if he's not picked with all the injuries on the wings.

As you all probably know I think both Yarde and May are overrated and it's a sad state of affairs if either starts vs SA.

England selection can be brutal. Especially on players like Ksevic and even Garvey.

Looking at the inside centre situation, Barritt could warrant a recall. Yes I think he's a better 12 than a crocked Farrell,Burrell or T'eo.

Especially as it looked like he wasn't fully fit during the RWC. I am not suggesting Barritt coming back as a long term solution but as a stop gap.

I still think Ford-Barritt-Joseph could work. This combination was not tried.

Slade is still unproven and would be a risk vs SA.

I want to be convinced by him but at the moment I see parallels with Twelvetrees.

If H.Mallinder was trusted by Saints, he would clearly be my long term 12 solution.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Wed 12 Oct 2016, 10:01 am

Ford's success under EJ has been with a second playmaker at 12. Personally I'd say that starting an unproven Slade who needs experience at Int level is much less of a risk than discarding the way the team has played up to this point and picking an entirely different form of 12 without much lead in.
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Post by beshocked Wed 12 Oct 2016, 10:32 am

Chequeredjersey do you think Ford's success is down to another player? You don't think it's down to his own good form?

Ford and Farrell played together in the RWC and yet it was a failure.

There is no guarantee either that Slade will be a success. I would of course want to succeed but it's his big match form since his injury which worries me.

I wouldn't say it's discarding the way a team is playing because the team is playing Saracens-esque rugby.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Wed 12 Oct 2016, 10:51 am

Ford's form last season, at club level, was not good! And he showed flaws at Int level that clearly benefitted from having Farrell outside him
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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 12 Oct 2016, 10:54 am

Have to agree with CJ, Ford was pretty poor most of last season, even with Farrell beside him. He only really picked up in Aus with kicking duties not with him.

Ford seems to be very much a confidence type of player and quite fragile at that. If he goal kicking suffer, it seems to affect other parts of his game.

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Post by beshocked Wed 12 Oct 2016, 11:23 am

Chequeredjersey fair point about Ford's club form but the issue is that Farrell is currently crocked. There's been issues with Farrell's foot before - I don't think it's something that will be fixed by partnering him with Ford.

Slade is not a top class proven goal kicker like Farrell. Plus Ford needs to take the training wheels off at some point. Biggar did it for Wales and knocked England out of the RWC with his goal kicking.

Sgt Pooly Maybe Slade is the right man to step up but I am worried that he's not a safe pair of hands. Is Slade even comfortable at 12?

The best performance I've seen from England 12s since Greenwood were Noon vs Ireland and Barritt vs NZ.

Now I am not advocating a return to a battering ram at 12 but I still do not mind the notion of a bruiser to balance out the fragility of Ford.

As I said before - if England were in a strong position at 12 I wouldn't consider recalling Barritt but with the current situation it's not far fetched for the defensive organiser to come back temporarily.

Whether you like Barritt or not he's a leader.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 12 Oct 2016, 11:30 am

I think we need to move on from Barritt personally, he's too limited as a 12.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 12 Oct 2016, 11:45 am

So you have a brilliant player with a couple of weak spots, bring someone in who covers those weak spots (and bring some strengths of their own) and somehow the combination works! Amazing

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Post by beshocked Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:02 pm

lostinwales wrote:So you have a brilliant player with a couple of weak spots, bring someone in who covers those weak spots (and bring some strengths of their own) and somehow the combination works! Amazing

Didn't work in the RWC or indeed the 2014 AIs... (didn't help that one of the players was crocked, wait.... what does that remind me of? You're telling me that same player has exactly the same injury issues? Let's fast track him in!)

Anyway we'll see, I'd love Slade to be a big hit in the AIs. Would be ideal if Ford-Slade forge an excellent 10-12 combo. I just have my doubts.

Sgt Pooly of course Barritt has his limitations and I agree we should move on but when our only options are a crocked Farrell (who are firmly believe is not fully fit) and Slade I am hesitant. Of course there's T'eo too but I think he's a less credible candidate than the likes of Banahan,Burrell and Mallinder as well as Barritt.

You won't see me advocating Wigglesworth because he's simply not good enough. I'd like to see Spencer overtaking him.

Robson is the 9 I want to see playing for England.

To be honest I'd take Cipriani over Lozoskwi at the moment too. Lozowski will probably surpass Cipriani in aspects of his game like temparament,goalkicking etc but Cipriani has shown touches of class this season which could well warrant a bench spot.

Though I still think the area where Farrell Jr has the trump card over all other 10 and 12 contenders is his goal kicking.

Though saying that I would still give Farrell Jr a rest, leave him out of the AIs.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:13 pm

Theres plenty of other options I hope we go with before Barrett. Devoto is playing well at Exeter. There's Hill, Te'o, Mallinder etc

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Post by beshocked Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:29 pm

Sgt Pooly it's simply the lack of good alternatives which in my mind has elevated Barritt as a potential to recall.

If Mallinder was getting good game time for Saints I would agree. He's being given scraps of gametime. He's not trusted.

He's the player I would want to see but cannot justify fast tracking him into England when he can't even get past Burrell. Saints centres have been floundering and yet Jim hasn't made the obvious changes.

T'eo - yet to see anything to suggest he's good enough. Ditto - Devoto and Hill.

In contrast Barritt is the captain of Saracens, Saracens have only conceded 4 tries in 6 matches, Barritt can't take all the credit but he's played his part for sure. He's the defensive organiser of the backline after all. Currently top of the table. They've scored 21 tries too.

He's clearly a better 12 than those you suggest currently.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:32 pm

beshocked wrote:
lostinwales wrote:So you have a brilliant player with a couple of weak spots, bring someone in who covers those weak spots (and bring some strengths of their own) and somehow the combination works! Amazing

Didn't work in the RWC or indeed the 2014 AIs... (didn't help that one of the players was crocked, wait.... what does that remind me of? You're telling me that same player has exactly the same injury issues? Let's fast track him in!)

Anyway we'll see, I'd love Slade to be a big hit in the AIs. Would be ideal if Ford-Slade forge an excellent 10-12 combo. I just have my doubts.

Sgt Pooly of course Barritt has his limitations and I agree we should move on but when our only options are a crocked Farrell (who are firmly believe is not fully fit) and Slade I am hesitant. Of course there's T'eo too but I think he's a less credible candidate than the likes of Banahan,Burrell and Mallinder as well as Barritt.

You won't see me advocating Wigglesworth because he's simply not good enough. I'd like to see Spencer overtaking him.

Robson is the 9 I want to see playing for England.

To be honest I'd take Cipriani over Lozoskwi at the moment too. Lozowski will probably surpass Cipriani in aspects of his game like temparament,goalkicking etc but Cipriani has shown touches of class this season which could well warrant a bench spot.

Though I still think the area where Farrell Jr has the trump card over all other 10 and 12 contenders is his goal kicking.

Though saying that I would still give Farrell Jr a rest, leave him out of the AIs.

In the RWC we hardly saw it, given the starting 10/12 combo was mostly Ford/some big guy from League. For all Farrell's strengths (and they are many) he isn't a Mike Catt - not yet anyway.

Players roles and responsibilities change over time as do their skills and experience. For instance it is entirely possible that Mallinder will be at 12 for England in the future even though he's not playing there all the time at the moment...

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Post by beshocked Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:38 pm

lostinwales we saw enough sadly for Wales to score their winning try and for Farrell to get himself sin binned for his petulance vs Australia. Neither incident will go down as successes. Both hugely costly actually and contributed to Lancaster leaving.

Lancaster's handling of certain players in the RWC was a disaster.

I'd like Mallinder to make it, I really do. Maybe a switch in club might help him. Whistle

Mallinder needs game time.

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Post by Gooseberry Wed 12 Oct 2016, 1:00 pm

lostinwales wrote:

For all Farrell's strengths (and they are many) he isn't a Mike Catt - not yet anyway.

Not gifting the opposition a try every game by doing something daft and/or incompetent isn't a bad thing though.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 12 Oct 2016, 1:02 pm

I'd really like to see Slade step into 12 this AIs, especially if Farrell is unfit. He's much further along with his development than Mallinder. Harry's going to be great but there's times in the summer and this season where we've seen he's not quite ready for international rugby as yet.

As for barritt...well I'd prefer Banahan.

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Post by nlpnlp Wed 12 Oct 2016, 1:39 pm

I think you have Barritt a good club player, but limited at international level and unlikely to develop new skills; Slade has proven himself at u21 International level and at club level, but unproven at full International level, but has the potential to be a top player with a bit of x factor; and Mallinder a success at u21 International level but unproven at club level.

To me Barritt would be a short term choice, which would only limit Slade's opportunities at International level. Mallinder would be a big gamble, with the chance of a Matt Tait result. So I hope that EJ goes with Slade and lets see how he gets on over 3 games.

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Post by beshocked Wed 12 Oct 2016, 1:41 pm

no 7 & 1/2 I remember you having high hopes for 36. The hype was unfounded sadly.

I just hope Slade isn't the next Billy Twelvetrees. Hailed as a saviour who will fill the elusive 12 slot since then has fallen apart.

nlplp sadly Slade buckled under the pressure in the AP final and for me that's a factor. I still think Slade needs to do more at club level. We'll see how he does vs Clermont.

Certain players buckle - Cipriani is another player who at international level had a tendency to not handle the pressure. Maybe Cipriani deserves another go though.


Last edited by beshocked on Wed 12 Oct 2016, 1:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 12 Oct 2016, 1:45 pm

You remember incorretly beshocked, at least after a season. I said that as a playmaking 12, which Lancaster and now eventually Joens seem to prefer he was the best holding option. Jones has gone with Farrell as (seemingly) the stop gap. You seem to be falling into the same trap seeing Slade/Mallinder etc as a saviour.

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