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England's Autumn selections

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Post by kingelderfield Wed 14 Sep 2016, 9:30 pm

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 12th November
England vs South Africa
Twickenham

Saturday 19th November
England vs Fiji
Twickenham

Saturday 26th November
England vs Argentina
Twickenham

Saturday 3rd December
England vs Australia
Twickenham

Obviously we're not playing New Zealand, but it's the other 3/4 of the Rugby Championship plus Fiji for good measure.

So given form and fitness who's going to make our starting 15 / 23?

No Haskell, but we will have Hughes. Neither Farrell, Tuilagi and Brown have played yet and injuries are certain to intervene for others to lose out or benefit as happens.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Thu 20 Oct 2016, 4:43 pm

Chis can play flanker as well though!
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 20 Oct 2016, 4:44 pm

Yup his speed is his major assest, quality players both.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Thu 20 Oct 2016, 4:45 pm

Chisholm is also like Itoje in how good he looked below age in the U20s and then how exceptional he was when he captained the side
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Post by beshocked Thu 20 Oct 2016, 5:38 pm

Do you think this will be Chisholm's breakthrough year then?

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Post by ChequeredJersey Thu 20 Oct 2016, 6:17 pm

beshocked wrote:Do you think this will be Chisholm's breakthrough year then?

I think with Clifford injured and Robshaw away at least for the AIs, yes. His chance has come for Quins and I'm confident he can take it
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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 20 Oct 2016, 8:39 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Problem is CJ that he is in a very competitive position!
 

Yes but they're seemingly dropping like flies or ridiculously out of form!


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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 20 Oct 2016, 8:45 pm

[quote="beshocked"]
Poorfour wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Eddie Jones has been in charge less than a year as I said before. E.Jones should be looking to use this AIs to blood some more options. Especially in the easier matches - Fiji and Argentina.

Tosh. You repeatedly demand that whomever is the England Head Coach "bloods new players" in any game that's even marginally less than a fiercely competitive game. It's nonsense.

Jones has already blooded Hill, Itoje, Harrison, Clifford and effectively George, plus included a host of younger players in the EPS and training squad. I've posted the list somewhere recently, perhaps even in this thread, and the list is surprisingly long and surprisingly young.

His stated aim is dominance, and it seems pretty clear from selection so far that he's not going to give out caps easily (but will reward performance in the shirt by anyone who wins one).

My guess is that the furthest he's likely to go is not risking anyone carrying a niggle against Fiji. But he's not going to risk a loss just to try people out. Injury will force his hand often enough that there will be plenty of chances to try new players out of necessity.

Only Itoje is a starter. The others have had merely scraps of game time.

Throwing Harrison in did not work, if anything it might have potentially damaged the player's confidence. Jones quickly realised his mistake and yanked him off
.
You really do just pick and choose your arguments dependant on how others correct you don't you.

You constantly push for "new players to be blooded" but then seemingly criticise the cr@p out of them when they don't perform to world class standards????

And You belittle any player who isn't in a top 4 side...and even top 4 isn't a great position if Saracens have a good player in that specific position....



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Post by beshocked Fri 21 Oct 2016, 10:32 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Eddie Jones has been in charge less than a year as I said before. E.Jones should be looking to use this AIs to blood some more options. Especially in the easier matches - Fiji and Argentina.

Tosh. You repeatedly demand that whomever is the England Head Coach "bloods new players" in any game that's even marginally less than a fiercely competitive game. It's nonsense.

Jones has already blooded Hill, Itoje, Harrison, Clifford and effectively George, plus included a host of younger players in the EPS and training squad. I've posted the list somewhere recently, perhaps even in this thread, and the list is surprisingly long and surprisingly young.

His stated aim is dominance, and it seems pretty clear from selection so far that he's not going to give out caps easily (but will reward performance in the shirt by anyone who wins one).

My guess is that the furthest he's likely to go is not risking anyone carrying a niggle against Fiji. But he's not going to risk a loss just to try people out. Injury will force his hand often enough that there will be plenty of chances to try new players out of necessity.

Only Itoje is a starter. The others have had merely scraps of game time.

Throwing Harrison in did not work, if anything it might have potentially damaged the player's confidence. Jones quickly realised his mistake and yanked him off
.
You really do just pick and choose your arguments dependant on how others correct you don't you.

You constantly push for "new players to be blooded" but then seemingly criticise the cr@p out of them when they don't perform to world class standards????

And You belittle any player who isn't in a top 4 side...and even top 4 isn't a great position if Saracens have a good player in that specific position....



I push for new players generally to be blooded in the right way at the right time. Not just randomly picking and choosing to throw in players at a bad time.

A player is unlikely to perform at world class standards if thrown in the deep end. It's not surprising when a player sinks.

I don't belittle every player not in a top 4 side but generally the best teams do have the best players, not always of course.

Quins aren't a top 4 side at the moment but I'd likely have Robshaw,Brown and Marler in the 23. Robson instead of Care, sorry.

I'd also be open to the possibility of blooding Chisholm vs Fiji if he's as good as others think.

I've said that Cipriani is an unlucky guy.

Saints currently aren't a top 4 side but I'd find room for Hartley and Lawes in the 23. Maybe Hill or Brookes on the bench.

Exeter aren't top 4 at the moment either but would have Nowell as starter if he was fit. I'd try Slade at 12 vs Fiji.


My choice of team I doubt is much different to yours.


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Post by BamBam Fri 21 Oct 2016, 12:10 pm

Kruis is apparently out for "a number of weeks"


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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 21 Oct 2016, 12:12 pm

Hmm, return of Lawes and Launchbury?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 21 Oct 2016, 12:23 pm

Randomly picking beshocked? You think any coach does that?

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 21 Oct 2016, 12:58 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm, return of Lawes and Launchbury?

Would EJ do that, it would leave the bench bereft of experienced 2nd row cover. I know he hasn't had many caps, but Maro Itoje has a very old head on young shoulders, so I suspect would return to the second row and Harrison of AN Other start at 7. That would leave one of the Laesbury partnership to give experience to the bench.

I suspect Harrisons near term international carear will depend on how he performs tomorrow against Castres
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Post by Cumbrian Fri 21 Oct 2016, 1:11 pm

BamBam wrote:Kruis is apparently out for "a number of weeks"


Christ, this getting like the bad old days when we had whole swathes of first team players out injured for every tour/ tournament. There is a month until the Boks match, 'A number of weeks' doesn't sound particularly hopeful. All you can say is that lock is a position that we have very good depth in. The pack still looks decent:


04. Launchbury
05. Lawes
06. Robshaw
07. Itoje
08. Vunipola

So does Eddie need to bring another lock in, or does he go with what he has?
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Post by king_carlos Fri 21 Oct 2016, 1:29 pm

Charlie Ewels is the other lock in the squad.

If Itoje is being considered in the back row then I wouldn't be surprised if Mike Williams replacement was another second row. Clifford and Haskell are still to be replaced as well.

Question then is who will be brought in. Attwood, Lees, Ewels and James Craig were the Saxons locks. Jones did make a point at the time of saying they weren't necessarily next in line though, just players he wanted a closer look at.

Kitchener would offer line-out calling and primary jumper cover for Kruis. Attwood has already called the line-out at international level as well I believe.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 21 Oct 2016, 1:54 pm

king_carlos wrote:Charlie Ewels is the other lock in the squad.

If Itoje is being considered in the back row then I wouldn't be surprised if Mike Williams replacement was another second row. Clifford and Haskell are still to be replaced as well.

Question then is who will be brought in. Attwood, Lees, Ewels and James Craig were the Saxons locks. Jones did make a point at the time of saying they weren't necessarily next in line though, just players he wanted a closer look at.

Kitchener would offer line-out calling and primary jumper cover for Kruis. Attwood has already called the line-out at international level as well I believe.

Beaumont from the bench? Or could look for a 6/7 with Itoje moving into the 2nd row

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Post by propdavid_london Fri 21 Oct 2016, 1:55 pm

This is going to be a case of the last man standing will get an England cap!

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Post by Poorfour Fri 21 Oct 2016, 1:55 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm, return of Lawes and Launchbury?

Would EJ do that, it would leave the bench bereft of experienced 2nd row cover. I know he hasn't had many caps, but Maro Itoje has a very old head on young shoulders, so I suspect  would return to the second row and Harrison of AN Other start at 7. That would leave one of the Laesbury partnership to give experience to the bench.

I suspect Harrisons near term international carear will depend on how he performs tomorrow against Castres

Not sure he would do that. Itoje could start in the back row and move to lock, or just lead the lineout with someone else coming in at lock. I don't think with Kruis out you'd start with a less experienced player just to have more experience on the bench. Barring another serious injury, there's experience everywhere in the pack apart from the replacement lock, so I don't think the risk is too great. It's not that long ago that Kruis was the inexperienced little lamb set to be eaten alive by the mighty Welsh lineout in Cardiff, and look how that turned out.

Eddie's also said he sees Beaumont as a lock not an 8, so he could be the bench option, which would make for a very mobile back 5. Leaves England a bit short of lineout callers, though. Does Itoje ever call the lineout?
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Post by beshocked Fri 21 Oct 2016, 2:24 pm

no 7 & 1/2 I thought Lancaster did that on occasion.


Poorfour You want Itoje to play 7 and call the lineout? What next? Drive the team bus? Take over from Jones as head coach?

One would expect someone like Lawes or Launchbury to shoulder some responsibility as the two more experienced locks.

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Post by propdavid_london Fri 21 Oct 2016, 2:25 pm

Lawes was calling the lineouts before Kruis wasn't he?

Lets hope that there aren't any more injuries over the next few weeks - especially to Lawes, Launchbury and Itoje

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Post by BamBam Fri 21 Oct 2016, 2:28 pm

It's the same every year before the Autumn Ints - these 2 Euro fixtures just inflict carnage on squads, the games are just that physical

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 21 Oct 2016, 2:30 pm

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 I thought Lancaster did that on occasion.


Poorfour You want Itoje to play 7 and call the lineout? What next? Drive the team bus? Take over from Jones as head coach?

One would expect someone like Lawes or Launchbury to shoulder some responsibility as the two more experienced locks.

No you don't. You obviously see Nowell is quality or you wouldn't pick him in the side. You disagreed initially as you wanted Ashton that was always your problem.

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Post by Poorfour Fri 21 Oct 2016, 2:34 pm

beshocked wrote:Poorfour You want Itoje to play 7 and call the lineout? What next? Drive the team bus? Take over from Jones as head coach?

No, that's not what I want or what I said.

I don't particularly want Itoje to play 7, but Eddie, George Smith and even McCall seem to have weighed in saying that he could (and therefore very possibly will) play there.

On the assumption he does and that Launchbury and Lawes start at lock, there's a question about who the replacement lock is. It looks like it would have to be another lineout caller, given that Lawes is the only recognised one. England would have more options if there were someone else on the pitch with experience at calling lineouts.

So I asked - with no prejudice or expectation of what the answer would be - whether Itoje ever calls the lineout for Saracens. He's exceptional at reading and disrupting other team's lineouts, especially given his age and relative lack of height, so I thought it might be a possibility. If he does, it increases England's options. That's all.

I don't see why playing at 7 would stop someone from calling the lineout if they were competent at it. It's not as if the 7 has a specialist job at lineout time.
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Post by beshocked Fri 21 Oct 2016, 2:37 pm

Nowell improved.

Relatively poor 2014 6 nations, good 2015 and onwards.

It's not just because I wanted Ashton, I want the better player at the time.

If May becomes a decent winger I'll support him too.

My stance on players isn't set in stone.

If a player improves I will give credit where it's due.

Poorfour it's because you put more responsibilities on a player who will already be playing out of position.

Just because people have said Itoje can play there doesn't mean he's proven there or a long term solution at 7.

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Post by Poorfour Fri 21 Oct 2016, 2:44 pm

No, I don't think he's a long term solution at 7 either. I don't even think Haskell's a long term solution. If I were in charge, I'd probably do something else. But I'm not.

My best guess is that if Itoje plays 7 Eddie will ask him to do the job Haskell did: hit lots of stuff and hit it hard. That's under-utilising Itoje in open play, but the upside is that it's not so mentally taxing that it would preclude him doing a bit more at the lineout.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 21 Oct 2016, 2:47 pm

Of course Nowell improved, it's what you expect to see with talented and focused kids; suggests the pick wasn't done at random! May is already better than ok.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 21 Oct 2016, 2:49 pm

I think with Kruis out he may revert back to Itoje at lock where he's settled and we know what he can do. He's also a lineout jumper.
That leaves Launchbury v Lawes for his partner. Personally I think Launchbury is a better alround player and suits the way Jones wants to play the game. But Lawes offers athleticism and lineout ability.

I think he may go Launchbury and Itoje

That leaves the space on the back row.

6 Robshaw
7 Hughes
8 Billy

Hughes offers a physical game like Haskell and is also an extra lineout option.

1 Mako
2 Hartley or George (George is Hartley is not match fit)
3 Cole
4 Itoje
5 Launchbury
6 Robshaw
7 Hughes
8 Billy


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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 21 Oct 2016, 2:54 pm

Just can't see Hughes as ready to start on the flank.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 21 Oct 2016, 2:58 pm

I know 7.5 but I just think he most resembles Haskell....offers the lineout option and can help with additional carrying. And is a beast at the rucks.

Not ideal but has the skills required.

AND most importantly leaves Itoje to just continue his progress and education at Lock.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 21 Oct 2016, 3:01 pm

Hughes might start but he won't finish. We still need to define a backup with the expectation that they will play 30 mins (and maybe 50 if EJ decides Hughes isn't working)

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 21 Oct 2016, 3:04 pm

Yeah that's true, maybe he'll look at Harrison again , although hasn't he been mostly a bench warmer at Saints this year?? Hardly a great option.

Maybe the new fad of the month James Chisholm will get a call up?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 21 Oct 2016, 3:05 pm

MATT GARVEY!!!!! Very Happy Yahoo Run

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Post by king_carlos Fri 21 Oct 2016, 3:50 pm

I don't understand the thought process behind Jones not backing Lawes and Launchbury personally. Both are players he has kept around his squads since coming in and has given game time to. Both are playing well for their clubs. They work as a partnership. Lawes can call the line-out and be primary jumper, with 3 other jumping options and Hartley throwing to his club partner.

If he does feel that Itoje is his best option at 7 without Haskell and Williams (we're yet to see if that's the case) then I don't see why he'd change that with two experienced locks available to come in.

Personally I'd pick Kvesic at 7, not for his ruck work either which I think could do with work. It's his tackling and line-speed that I'm interested to see in the England pack. I think he could do a similar job to Haskell in defence by standing him 5-10m outside the ruck, telling him to lead the fringe defence rushing up and tackling any forward who tries to carry around the corner. Kvesic always splits opinion though.

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Post by B91212 Fri 21 Oct 2016, 4:06 pm

king_carlos wrote:I don't understand the thought process behind Jones not backing Lawes and Launchbury personally. Both are players he has kept around his squads since coming in and has given game time to. Both are playing well for their clubs. They work as a partnership. Lawes can call the line-out and be primary jumper, with 3 other jumping options and Hartley throwing to his club partner.
100% agree with that. England are lucky to have 4 proven international standard locks in the squad. EJ obviously rates them as he often has selected all 4 in the 23.

Not sure if it's already been mentioned as I only went back to where it mentioned Kruis being out for a few weeks started but Hartley returns for Saints tomorrow. Goes straight into the starting 15.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 21 Oct 2016, 4:13 pm

king_carlos wrote:I don't understand the thought process behind Jones not backing Lawes and Launchbury personally. Both are players he has kept around his squads since coming in and has given game time to. Both are playing well for their clubs. They work as a partnership. Lawes can call the line-out and be primary jumper, with 3 other jumping options and Hartley throwing to his club partner.

If he does feel that Itoje is his best option at 7 without Haskell and Williams (we're yet to see if that's the case) then I don't see why he'd change that with two experienced locks available to come in.

Personally I'd pick Kvesic at 7, not for his ruck work either which I think could do with work. It's his tackling and line-speed that I'm interested to see in the England pack. I think he could do a similar job to Haskell in defence by standing him 5-10m outside the ruck, telling him to lead the fringe defence rushing up and tackling any forward who tries to carry around the corner. Kvesic always splits opinion though.

Interesting thought .....but seemingly neither Lancaster nor Jones rates him. So there must be a flaw with him somewhere.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Fri 21 Oct 2016, 4:49 pm

Kvesic's physicality and numerous amount of pens he concedes has always been his issue.

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Post by mid_gen Fri 21 Oct 2016, 5:37 pm

Wallace is in fine form...not sure he's EJs idea of a flanker but he's a very good classic 7.

Chisholm is more EJs model of a backrow.

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Post by Poorfour Fri 21 Oct 2016, 5:57 pm

mid_gen wrote:Wallace is in fine form...not sure he's EJs idea of a flanker but he's a very good classic 7.

Chisholm is more EJs model of a backrow.

I think Wallace may lack the physicality that Eddie's looking for. Chisholm prefers 8 but physically is a similar size and shape to Underhill and very powerful.
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Post by yappysnap Fri 21 Oct 2016, 10:28 pm

Why are we making this so difficult?


4. Lawes
5. Launchbury
6. Itoje
7. Robshaw
8. Vunipola

Not perfect but requires the least change, so the systems can stay the same. Itoje does Haskells jobs if needed.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 21 Oct 2016, 11:04 pm

Logical.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 22 Oct 2016, 5:33 pm

Because Robshaws not a 7 Very Happy Wink

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Post by Cumbrian Sun 23 Oct 2016, 11:01 am

Any word on Itoje's injury? This is getting beyond a joke.
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Post by lostinwales Sun 23 Oct 2016, 11:51 am

Cumbrian wrote:Any word on Itoje's injury? This is getting beyond a joke.

I had heard it's a hand injury and they were waiting to get in x-rayed. Surely he can still play one handed. We have to make it fair somehow

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Post by maestegmafia Sun 23 Oct 2016, 11:57 am

How high is the injury count now?

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Post by yappysnap Sun 23 Oct 2016, 12:51 pm

Definitely out:
Manu
Kruis
Haskell
Watson
Nowell
LCD
Clifford

Maybe out:
Hartley
Itoje


Last edited by yappysnap on Sun 23 Oct 2016, 8:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sun 23 Oct 2016, 4:48 pm

Add Clifford
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Post by yappysnap Sun 23 Oct 2016, 8:19 pm

Ah yes

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Post by BamBam Sun 23 Oct 2016, 10:09 pm

Itoje has a broken hand Sad

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sun 23 Oct 2016, 10:11 pm

Frak
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Post by ChequeredJersey Sun 23 Oct 2016, 10:12 pm

Oh well. At least the locks are sorted Now and we can focus on who plays 7
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Post by Rugby Fan Sun 23 Oct 2016, 11:44 pm

I know Ewels and Attwood are in line for bench spots with Kruis and Itoje down, but Slater and Kitchener both had good games yesterday. Slater could also be a useful experienced head if we find ourselves looking light in that regard.

The bench split is going to look intriguing this autumn. One reason we had four locks in the matchday squad is that Kruis, Itoje, Launchbury and Lawes were among our best players, and it was worth having them all playing.

You could still try to mimic that strategy with the remaining locks, or else Jones could now have a different list of his best players, and shape the squad accordingly. He could, for instance, play a host of number eights, with Hughes, Vunipola, Morgan and Beaumont covering lock and flanker. Not sure I'd like that, mind you.

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