England's Autumn selections

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 12th November
England vs South Africa
Twickenham

Saturday 19th November
England vs Fiji
Twickenham

Saturday 26th November
England vs Argentina
Twickenham

Saturday 3rd December
England vs Australia
Twickenham

Obviously we're not playing New Zealand, but it's the other 3/4 of the Rugby Championship plus Fiji for good measure.

So given form and fitness who's going to make our starting 15 / 23?

No Haskell, but we will have Hughes. Neither Farrell, Tuilagi and Brown have played yet and injuries are certain to intervene for others to lose out or benefit as happens.

Who else is there?

So you're going back on Mallinder and any bench option needs to be good enough to come on straight away if someone was injured. Just wish you'd play with a straight bat; just say you rate player x more than y rather than reasons you don't carry through to thye next time. The fact you have written off Harrison already bemuswes me as much as calling for a debutant you haven't seen. And yes I'd be more than happy for Harrison or Wood to get games. Just for the record Chisholm does look v good but he isn't ready as yet and no need to rush him.

Sgt Pooly well that’s the issue, we are scraping the barrel, I guess that means Hughes at 7.

no 7 and 1/2 I am worried that Harrison is the next Calum Clark, basically not good enough for international rugby. Not every player makes the step up to international level.



Well that’s a bit worrying if we are expecting players to always come off the bench early.

Attwood as a 2nd row replacement doesn’t exactly feel me with confidence either.

Of course there’s an element of I think player X is better than player Y but it’s not that simple.

I wouldn’t ideally want to start Chisholm vs SA, yes perhaps he is not yet ready but I am not jumping for joy at the prospect of Harrison or Wood in the team.

You know I don’t like it when players are promoted when I feel they don’t deserve it. I do believe that players have to be in good form to warrant selection.

The most unlucky player is Robson.

Mallinder isn’t ready yet sadly plus he has to perform well enough to challenge Farrell Jr and Slade.


I am not a champion of mediocrity. I want England to win.

It does take me more than a game and a quarter to judge and yes you do have to think what would happen if a player getss injured after a minute which is what can make a bench challenging. I wouldn't be considering Chisholm yet as despite his great showings there are still questions on him as he's so new. Hughes is slightly further on but I'd prefer him as the bench option. I'd go Harrison until the next injury takes someone out.

Recall for Calum Clark then?

If Harrison was in great form then there might be a justification for giving him another chance but he's not.

I know form means nothing to you though....

Don't think Clark is ready to be considered again yet. What did you make of Harrison vs Castres; Jones seemed to like what he saw? What's your team and bench for SA? And no I wouldn't chase the form players around, there needs to be a bit of consistency and backing of core players to an extent.

beshocked wrote:Recall for Calum Clark then?

If Harrison was in great form then there might be a justification for giving him another chance but he's not.

I know form means nothing to you though....

EJ would appear to disagree with you BS

Lawes has now to be considered a big doubt, didn't play today due to not having recovered sufficiently to train properly.

Who is next in line?

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Lawes has now to be considered a big doubt, didn't play today due to not having recovered sufficiently to train properly.

Who is next in line?

Attwood, Ewels on bench

Josh Beaumont into the squad as injury cover for Lawes...

Dropping like flies.......I believe the squad were all flying out to Portugal training camp today or last night.
Ordinarily I would think that those starters that have made it this far are likely to make it to the first test at least.
However, if they get another crack at EJs high intensity training, then get a standard hammering fixture with the Saffas then we could be looking at a completely different squad come the Oz fixture!

Feelings from the weekends fixtures -
Rokko has to be starting.
Marlan Yarde didn't do himself many favours.
Care has to move in front of Youngs
Farrell will start...likely to continue at 12
Mako V will start ahead of Marler
Brown is back in some form
Harrison at 7 still doesn't fill me with confidence - did he even play on weekend
Hartley?

My feelings from the games I watched -

Spencer outplayed Youngs. If he can become first choice 9 for Sarries might be able to push for international honours. Seems foolish decision to leave out Robson now.

Neither Cole or Mako impressed particularly in their battle. Mako foolishly got himself deservedly YCed.
If Burns can maintain some consistency he could put himself back into England contention.
Ford will not assure Jones that he is capable of taking kicks for England though showed his creativity with ball in hand.
T.Youngs doesn't look likely to feature again soon for England bar freak injuries at hooker.
George was reliable at set piece time.
Attwood was industrous though unspectacular.
Roko well shackled by Short until Short went off then he made the decisive difference vs Exeter. Excellent finish. Looks set to start.
Billy is still the go to no 8.
Slade looked assured and should get some gametime in the AIs, likely against Fiji.
Slater and Kitchener have more to do to challenge for England honours. Had a golden opportunity to lay a marker against a Sarries side missing their 2 first choice locks. Didn't capitalise.

Farrell is still the best goal kicker in England and controlled the game well vs Leicester.

Thought Kitchener was a bright spark in that Leicester pack myself. Carried well, made his tackles, took lineout ball. Had a thought on your team and bench selection yet beshocked?

I cannot see that Ford will ever get chosen without Farrell inside him at 10.

Kitchener has been excellent this season. Playing consistently at his best.

His biggest weakness compared to Kruis, Itoje and Launchbury is that he doesn't offer much of a breakdown threat on opposition ball. Something that Jones seems very keen for his whole pack to do. Perhaps Jones shares many peoples frustration that for a man with his size and speed that he doesn't make significant line breaks such as Itoje will. His carrying around the fringes and in the tight is very solid though, as much so as most our locks I think.

His set-piece work is great. He's an excellent jumper in attack or defence, runs the line-out well, defends mauls well and given his sheer size he locks the scrum out well. Similar to what Attwood does these days really - hence it wasn't a huge surprise when he got called up given his international experience.

Given the number of no8's EJ is picking, could we be looking at Hughes as a second row? He is certainly big enough at 19st+. Beaumont can get away at second row at club level, but would at just over 17st be an emergency option only. I can't say I particularly fancy Ewels and Attwood hasn't been good enough for EJ so far, so I struggle to see one of them as a starter.

Up against Hamilton and Rhodes, Kitchener should be doing better. Tigers struggled at set piece time and a 2nd row plays an important part in that.

Tigers needed a better platform.

king carlos not every 2nd row necessarily needs to make line breaks if they are anchoring a dominant scrum and helping their team with a dominant lineout. You have to impose your will on the opposition.

Itoje's strength isn't in his scrummaging, he's just a nuisance for the opposition.

nlplp who would want to lift Hughes?

What in particular do you think Kitchener struggled with? What would be your team adn bench for SA, don't be limited to Jones' squad.

I am limiting it to Jones' squad because that's what we've got. Look at the other thread.

Kitchener struggled to oppose his will on the game. Burns came on and galvanised Leicester. Leicester needed a leader in the forwards to do like wise. Rhodes imposed his will on Leicester, leading by example for Saracens in the forwards. That should not be happening.

You should be outplaying your opposite numbers, especially when they are depleted. Barritt for example capitalised on the injuries to Toomua and Manu in the centre battle. It's not surprising but he did it nonetheless.

Many Tigers players had tougher assignments than Kitchener.

Pietersen was a bit unfortunate as the Sarries SA players targeted and bullied him, Burger was fortunate not to be penalised for a neck roll.

Hmm, not sure what you mean by imposing his will though.

Leading by example, helping Leicester have a solid set piece and lineout. Settling nerves. Taking responsibility. Not letting Burns have to almost singlehandedly galvanise Leicester into a fight back.

Saracens were in complete control of the match till Burns' intervention, sure Leicester had their moments of building phases but there wasn't enough pressure exerted. Saracens were allowed to relieve pressure and effectively counter by the combination of poor set piece and poor tactical kicking. Leicester did not make that many handling errors but I didn't feel like Kitchener was spearheading the Leicester assault. I felt the most influential forward carrying wise was Genge who at least tried to cause Saracens problems. Technically he's a bit suspect but he's a strong bloke.

For me he did that though. Kitchener was their best forward, the rest of that applies to Leicester as a team fair enough, but not on Kitchener as an individual.

beshocked wrote:king carlos not every 2nd row necessarily needs to make line breaks if they are anchoring a dominant scrum and helping their team with a dominant lineout. You have to impose your will on the opposition.

To be honest I thought that Kitchener did a good job of those things, beshocked.

I thought our scrum struggled because Sarries worked better as a unit in the scrum and Jamie George is fantastic at leading that unit. Some will use that to knock Tom Youngs as always but I think it's more indicative of how good George is there. He's a rare hooker who seems to relish set-piece and it really shows. He'd be my starter for England if we had another obvious choice as captain.

Similar in the loose where I thought Kitchener threw his weight around well in attack and defence but Sarries efficiency in both smothered Tigers.

The main thing that killed us was aimless kicking from hand throughout the game.

Kitch is a very good player and showing better consistency at the moment. For line-out locks Kruis is ahead of the lot due to consistency, work rate and his breakdown work. I think Kitch and Attwood perform at a very similar level though and think he's unfortunate to have had Beaumont called up ahead of him.

no 7 & 1/2 you the Champion of mediocrity strikes again.... Sorry but Kitchener was not good enough. Imagine how painful it could be if Kitchener and Slater faced Kruis and Itoje.....

2nd row was one of the key areas, Tigers should have targeted and been successful at.

Another area was no 9. When you hold the advantage you have to make it count.

The difference IMO is that where Saracens should have been weaker they weren't and where they held the advantage they made it count.

If I was SA in the AIs I would be wanting to get the upper hand in the 2nd row and backrow, a lack of success there would be a big disappointment.

If you allow the opposition to settle they'll punish you.

King carlos you are entitled to your opinion. I just want a 2nd row to impose their will. Rhodes did that. Kruis and Itoje do that. It's about stamping your authority.

I don't blame Ayerza and Cole/Genge. It's much harder packing down with T.Youngs than George agreed.

George anchors that Saracens scrum, something I've said many times. Mako is fortunate to scrum down with him.

Rhodes is not normally a 2nd row and yet he put his mark on the game.

Are you saying that to avoid explaining beshocked? How was the player in question mediocre?

nlpnlp wrote:Given the number of no8's EJ is picking, could we be looking at Hughes as a second row?  He is certainly big enough at 19st+.  Beaumont can get away at second row at club level, but would at just over 17st be an emergency option only.  I can't say I particularly fancy Ewels and Attwood hasn't been good enough for EJ so far, so I struggle to see one of them as a starter.

Jones has said he sees Beaumont as a second row.
I reckon Hughes will play flanker, there's only 3 of them in the squad and Wood seems to be a direct replacement should Robshaw get injured. 

Attwood will start. Ewels or Beaumont will bench. You want some experience vs SA in the starting pack. Also, you need someone used to calling the lineout! That's not Launch's ideal role so Attwood it is.

Pending further injuries:

Brown
Yarde
Joseph
Farrell
Roko
Ford
Youngs
Vunipola
Harrison
Robshaw
Attwood
Launchbury
Cole
Hartley
Vunipola

Marler, George, Sinckler, ???, ???, Care, ???, ???

Hard to call the bench, can see the arguments for either lock, for Hughes vs Wood (or just both the locks as both cover backrow too), for any 2 of Te'o vs Slade vs Daly vs Goode vs May (though would like one of Daly or May in there)

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 you the Champion of mediocrity strikes again.... Sorry but Kitchener was not good enough. Imagine how painful it could be if Kitchener and Slater faced Kruis and Itoje.....

2nd row was one of the key areas, Tigers should have targeted and been successful at.

Another area was no 9. When you hold the advantage you have to make it count.

The difference IMO is that where Saracens should have been weaker they weren't and where they held the advantage they made it count.

If I was SA in the AIs I would be wanting to get the upper hand in the 2nd row and backrow, a lack of success there would be a big disappointment.

If you allow the opposition to settle they'll punish you.

King carlos you are entitled to your opinion. I just want a 2nd row to impose their will. Rhodes did that. Kruis and Itoje do that. It's about stamping your authority.

I don't blame Ayerza and Cole/Genge. It's much harder packing down with T.Youngs than George agreed.

George anchors that Saracens scrum, something I've said many times. Mako is fortunate to scrum down with him.

Rhodes is not normally a 2nd row and yet he put his mark on the game.

At 9, Youngs isn't that much better on form than Spencer though

I already told you. He wasn't good enough on the day. He is not good enough for England.

He was emphatically outplayed by a non 2nd rower, even made Hamilton whose best days behind him seem stellar.

Tigers needed to win key head to heads - won of those was the 2nd row battle. Of course kicking battle was key - Youngs and Williams in particular should have done better but then again Williams was up against Farrell.

Rugby isn't just about playing well yourself, if you can stop the opposition too then it goes a long way to winning, disrupting is important.

Chequeredjersey B.Youngs has the experience though over Spencer. B.Youngs is one of Eddie Jones favoured 9s. Spencer is probably 5th or 6th choice.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm, not sure what you mean by imposing his will though.

Acting to the Nietzscherian ideal of an Ubermensch with the application of Will To Power. Obviously.

beshocked wrote:Sorry but Kitchener was not good enough. Imagine how painful it could be if Kitchener and Slater faced Kruis and Itoje.....

Kruis and Itoje are England's best locks and 2 of the best performing locks in the world over the last year so that's not surprising.

Rhodes played extremely well but was part of a better team, working better as a unit and playing at home.

I'm not arguing that Kitchener is England's best lock. Just that with all of Kruis, Itoje and Lawes injured he'd have been my next pick over Beaumont.

I also think he did better at the weekend than you are giving him credit for. He was playing in the side under pressure, who were giving away what ball the forwards did win with aimless kicking, which made them play in the wrong parts of the field.

king carlos I am not saying that Kitchener was rubbish, he was okay but Leicester needed more than okay. Even you believe that Kitchener put in a 7/10 performance it's not good enough if one of his opposite numbers puts in a 9/10 shift. Especially from a non lock. Yes it helps playing in a better team at home but if you have aspirations to play for your country you have to outperform an opposition's 3rd and 4th choice locks.

If a side is under pressure you have a job to relieve that pressure. It wasn't just the poor kicking. The Leicester set piece was not good enough, the poor kicking cannot be blamed for that.

Hamilton and Rhodes did well but they are not Kruis and Itoje. That's my point.

When facing easier opposition you have to try and make the most of it.

Surely Cockerill will be happy that his players aren't being picked though? Do you think that his attitude to England might have contributed to players like Kitchener not being picked?

No I don't think Cockerill's attitude has affected selection - Cole and B.Youngs generally get picked irrespective of form. Manu generally gets in when fit.

I think Cockerill like any coach wants his players to be recognised at international level.

Tigers certainly have changed their player policy in the last few years though. Going from predominantly English to more foreign, so have Quins. It's obviously down to player availability. Having players available all year round is important.

It does seem though that once you get to a certain age though it's harder to get recognised if you lack experience. Seems to be a trend to pick the younger man over the older one if both have the same experience.

Beaumont is 23 and Ewels 21.

Our first XV is still 73% English! And the 23 around 74-83% (arguably on backup 10 and backup outfield player, but probably Swiel and Alofa, so 78%)
But fair enough, with the salary cap changes it's madness not to have a few quality foreign players and cover for the England losses in 6N and AI time

ChequeredJersey wrote:Surely Cockerill will be happy that his players aren't being picked though? Do you think that his attitude to England might have contributed to players like Kitchener not being picked?

As all club coaches are to an extent. Good DORs, such as Cockers IMO, also understand that they will struggle to attract top players if they don't have internationals. Cockers frequently talks up his players and also isn't shy to encourage others around the club to do so. Brad Thorn being very outward with his views that Kitch would be an All Black are a good example.

Cockers hasn't so much got an attitude towards England as international rugby as a whole. There is simply too much of it and players can't cope with how short a break they get these days. It's no coincidence that the current injuries have come after an extremely successful tour down under in which Jones didn't rotate at all.

Kitch not getting picked has been down to two things IMO. Inconsistency from himself and strength in depth in that second row.

Chequeredjersey I agree it's a sign of the times but your team used to have barely any foreigners a few years ago.

You've gone from not many to 18....

In 2011-12 final you had 19 English players out of 23.

beshocked wrote:Chequeredjersey I agree it's a sign of the times but your team used to have barely any foreigners a few years ago.

You've gone from not many to 18....

In 2011-12 final you had 19 English players out of 23.

To be fair, our starting 23 now would probably have 18 EQ players (Swiel being EQ but not English) out of 23

But certainly we have more NEQ squad players than we used to, and more NEQ starters (it used to be just 2... or one if we picked Wallace over Mo)

beshocked wrote:I already told you. He wasn't good enough on the day. He is not good enough for England.

He was emphatically outplayed by a non 2nd rower, even made Hamilton whose best days behind him seem stellar.

Tigers needed to win key head to heads - won of those was the 2nd row battle. Of course kicking battle was key - Youngs and Williams in particular should have done better but then again Williams was up against Farrell.

Rugby isn't just about playing well yourself, if you can stop the opposition too then it goes a long way to winning, disrupting is important.

Chequeredjersey B.Youngs has the experience though over Spencer. B.Youngs is one of Eddie Jones favoured 9s. Spencer is probably 5th or 6th choice.

For me Kitchener was pick of the locks and best Leicester forward and probably player. How was he outplayed? Not the pack or the team; where did his performance falter or fail?

ChequeredJersey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm, not sure what you mean by imposing his will though.

Acting to the Nietzscherian ideal of an Ubermensch with the application of Will To Power. Obviously.

Ta, I'll google that to get the joke shortly!

Of course you would say that. If I think a player is overrated, you champion them.

Champion of mediocrity.....

I've already said how his performance faltered/failed. I am not repeating myself anymore.

How was he outplayed? It's obvious, just watching the match would make that obvious. Did you even watch the game?

Next you'll be saying Kitchener deserved the man of the match award.....

Quite liked Kitchener for a fair while and was hoping he would be involvved under Jones but alas no. I've yet to read why you feel he was mediocre bar the poor performance of Leicester in general. What for instance did Hamilton do which was better than Kitchener. For me I generally don't comment on a players performance and call for them to be in or out of an England squad; seen someone do that twice recently with Harrison and Chisholm!