NZ in India

First topic message reminder :

India has picked the squad and unfortunately promising all rounder Binny has been left out without a fair run...while Rohit gets picked with a promise of extended run.

Today NZ are playing Mumbai and promising swing bowler Balwinder singh Sandhu has picked both of NZ wickets

But India's chase not on track at the moment. They are 110-4 in 26 overs. They were 73-4 at 1 stage as Rohit Sharma, and for a change Virat Kohli during a chase, failed up top. Ajinkya Rahane then fell to a questionable catch and Manish Pandey, after looking good, got run-out by a fine bit of fielding.
Jadhav and the skipper at the crease. There is Hardik Pandya and Axar Patel to come. But at the moment, think its New Zealand ahead.

Kedar Jadhav, after looking really good for his 37 ball 41, got out to Henry just as it seemed he and Dhoni were resting control back for India. Axar Patel ahead of Hardik, that's an interesting call. With the old MS, this would have been fine, but Dhoni is not the Dhoni of old, so New Zealand pretty much ahead here.......

Dhoni hasn't seen it through. He didn't quite look like he would that today. And he got done in by a very sharp return catch from Southee for 39. Over to Pandya now.......
India need 65 in 10 overs. There is the handy with the bat Amit Mishra to come. Can Hardik Pandya, who had a fine debut with the ball in the first match, show his all-round credentials today?

Think that's it for India, the parttime offspin from Martin Guptill does for Axar Patel. India still a long way away at 180-7.

Poor from Mishra, without giving young Hardik a chance, he started swinging right away and ends up giving Guptill his 2nd wicket of the over.
At 183-8, this looks like a formality and a big defeat on the cards for India.

Pandya and Yadav did well to get India so close.......I think these 30s and 40s from Dhoni at a SR of 60% are NOT USEFUL  at all.
chokes the momentum...and gets out without accelerating

he is living purely on the reputation for last couple of years as a batsman..

Pandya India's most exciting talent now.... as I said before the start of first ODI

Axar another limited utility cricketer.......no great bowler and extremely limited as a batsman........inspite of his allrounder tag.....Mishra, Sami, Yadav, Bhivi all are much more capable with bat and ball than Axar

Shami and Yadav better bats than Axar, KPF? Must say that's a bit tough.
Yes I agree with the general point though, Axar is limited as a bowler, and not much of an all-rounder at the highest level. And I was surprised they send him in ahead of Pandya. That might just have cost India the game in the end.
Hopefully they'll pick Jayant Yadav for the next game in place of Axar. I was disappointed with Mishra's approach with the bat, he's close to being an all-rounder, and it was downright silly the shot he played, the very choice as well as the execution.......
And MS, certainly he's struggling. Unless he can find some spark, think the time to go is near. Just hope he finds a way to deal with the challenge. Giving up the captaincy might just free him up mentally, might just give him the energy to go on for a year or 2 till Samson or Pant are ready to take over. Saha is not a limited overs keeper, and there aren't any regular keeping options available other than Samson and young Panth. The parttime options of Uthappa or KL Rahul may not be the best choices with the gloves. Rahul can certainly belong to the top level with his batting, not sure about his keeping though....... And Uthappa is not likely to be that good with either discipline.......

Axar is yet to show me in even one inning that he has the ability to negotiate international quality bowling....especially fast medium or fast variety....he lacks the reflexes to handle such bowling .
Nor does he have tecqniue...just hoicks across the line through mid-wicket.

and i mean it earnestly that Yadav, shami, Buvi....all of them have better reflexes as batters.

I am amazed when i see Axar's batting average of 54 at FC level

Jayant Yadav should play.....but Dhoni is one of the worst captains in trying out new talent.

India really missed an opportunity of trying Kuldip Yadav......one who can make a difference as a wicket taking match winner...should Ashwin be indisposed or injured

Kuldeep is having a fine start to the domestic season. At least a bit of squad time could have been given, would have done his confidence a lot of good.
Axar is mediocre with the ball too. They say he's similar to Jadeja. But Jadeja has lots of suttle variations, and is slowly expanding his range as a bowler, he's been flighting the ball a lot more of late, and is seriously accurate. Axar, as Sunil Gavaskar ones put it, just rolls it, flat and quick....... Should not have been selected in the first place. Perhaps getting more FC bowling in Ranji, might just have helped him, as he would have had to do more than firing it in to get batsmen out. He does have time on his side, but he needs far more work to be a consistent option at the top level.

Now that the series is 1-1, MS is unlikely to go down the path of experiment. Raina was thankfully unavailable today as well. Hope Jadhav has done enough to stay in...... So wish he converted that 41 into something more substantive. Might have won the game for India, and and more in the longer term, that would have kept Raina out.......

to be honest...Yuvraj was a better left arm spinner than Axar....and inspite of his decline a far better batsman


If people like yuvraj and sehwag had taken their spin bowling more seriously....inspite of their decline they could have played a little bit longer in limited over cricket specially.

Jalaj Saxena got dumped without a fair run....was a decent Ranji allrounder...

Shreyas Gopal is a better bet than Axar ....a more potent leg break ( kumble styled) allrounder. He picked plenty of wickets in Duleep trophy recently on batsman friendly pitches..
you've gotta look for spinners... with X-factor, some mystery......who on their day can take 3 or 4 or 5 wickets an win you the game.

days of a plain , accurate, SLA or off-spinner  are finished.......and you are right.......Jadeja has much more variety and some X-factor deliveries every now and then.....and much more to offer as a batsman than Axar

Listless Dhoni plays an unchanged 11.
There is a lot of case for playing jayant
And dhoni must bat jadhav above him and if RRR too high then pandya also above him.

New Zealand got a good start, then lost their way in the middle, then fought back with a 9th wicket partnership of 84 of 67 at the end to post 285. Latham made 61 at the top, Neesham 57 of 47, and Matt Henry a run-a-ball 39 at 10.
They have already chipped out Rohit and Rahane. MS has promoted himself up the order to 4. Think it is a good move. And if it comes to it, Pandy most certainly should bat ahead of Axar.......
India 58-2 in the 13th over.

Ajinkya Rahane has potential, and he's a proven class act in test matches. But currently he is not doing enough to retain his ODI place. The moment KL Rahul is fit, he has to come back and take up the position at the top. Rohit has also failed in all the 3 games, but unlike Rahane, in this format, Rohit has some credit left in the bank, and on flattish tracks, he's more than a handful.

MS has hit a few big shots, but he has not been able to maintain the flow of 1s and 2s that used to be a major feature of his ODI batting.

That has got to a half century, his first in about a year.... He's finding more of the big hits today, has already gone over the boundary 3 times....... And now the singles are coming more regularly.

And cricinfo reports that MS has hit more 6s than any Indians in ODI cricket.

And now he has overtaken Virat.......

Just when Kohli and Dhoni seemed to ready to run away with the game, Henry forces open an opportunity for New Zealand as he gets Dhoni for 80.
Good knock from the skipper, coming in at 4, but there is a job to be done yet, and Kohli yet again will have to see the chase through.......

A walk in the park for India in the end. That's what happens when Virat Kohli takes charge of a chase as he so very often does. Finishes with 154 not out this time, and Pandey giving him good support at the end, ensure there was no further loss after the skipper had fallen....... It was that partnership between Kohli and MS that set things up. Dhoni has to keep batting up the order, he has to come in at 4 regularly now. Pandey is adaptable, can bat at 5.......
That is another reason why Rahane can't be part of the ODI side now. He is not a good middle order player. Rahul it has to be, and he has to open along with Rohit. At full strength with all fit and available.
Rohit Sharma
KL Rahul
Virat Kohli
Mahendra Singh Dhoni
Manish Pandey
Kedar Jadhav
Hardik Pandya
Ravindra Jadeja
Ravichandran Ashwin
Mohammed Shami
Jasprit Bumrah
Rahane the batting cover, Mishra the spin cover, Bhuvneshwar the seam bowling backup.

And a very honest bit of public introspection from the skipper at the end. He said he's losing the ability to freely rotate and keep the singles going from the outset and that he needs time to get into the groove and can then play the big shots. Well, Dhoni can't be the finisher of old, but he still can very well be one of the best ODI batsmen for India, batting up the order. And with the likes of Jadhav and Pandya at 6 and 7, there are other options who can play the big shots from the outset.

India has to show they can chase without contributions from Kohli

and India must set themselves the challenge to set a total and defend it also.

and Ind must use Jayatn Yadav in remaining 2 games

So India take the series in the final match, after inflicting an absolute thumping on New Zealand. 50s from Rohit Sharma 70 and Virat Kohli 65, and contributions from Mahendra Singh Dhoni 41 and Kedar Jadhav 39 not out helped them to a middling total of 270. And though they lost Martin Guptill right at the outset and Tom Latham a bit later, Kane Williamson and Ross Taylor looked like they would be able to put them back on track. Then suddenly, it all went south, Williamson got out Taylor got out, and the rest of them just followed in no time. They lost 8-16 at the end, to be bowled out for 79. Amit Mishra did most of the damage, taking 5 wickets. Bumrah, Umesh and debutant Jayant Yadav took 1 each, and Axar Patel took 2.

--India won their 3 games by a mile and  lost two close ones....and if they work a bit harder on their startegy, planning, captaincy issues....they could win these close games too.

--Mishra bowled a bamboozling, test match quality spell.....and had a great series with the ball all the way....I think he should be played as a third spinner vs. Eng in tests....how they get him in.....is a discussion for later.

---Axar scored some runs in the last 2 games and redeemed himself a bit as an allrounder......although I got the feeling his bowling action is changed and is bending his elbow...wasn't much chance to assess Jayant

--Jadhav I believe has nailed his spot with the bat and with his bonus bowling and wicket taking skills....while Pandey will rue his missed chance...his position is up for grabs....he has more talent than Jadhav...but doesn't give himself a chance to play in......
Umesh was standout with the ball.

--Rohit could have done more but his position won't be challenged for now.....Rahane should have done more

--Dhoni is well past his peak but still offfers a lot as a wK and batsman with exprience......it would be good if he gives up captaincy and plays as a pure batsman WK.
He eis stil quite conservative and defensive as a captain and should make room for Kohli to come in and settle ...world cup si still 2.5 years away

MS should give up captaincy and focus on his keeping and batting. He's the best keeper to spin, by a country mail. Nobody else currently going around, would come close to him. As a batsman he's the same any more, yet is capable of making a significant contribution, but only up the order.......
Agree on Rohit, won't be challenged as such, and to be fair, shouldn't be, at least as of now. Not my favorite player, but will have to live with him, and in limited overs, he can be a handful, particularly on flattish tracks, and most ODIs are played on such tracks these days.
Rahane just hasn't done enough. And when Rahul returns, he most certainly have to give way. Ajinkya can't bat in the middle order in ODIs, he doesn't rotate strike that well particularly against spin. And he's not a number 6 kind of material. If he bats 4, that would in addition means MS will have to move down to 5. He's more suited to bat 4 these days, and in that position, he's much better than Rahane.
Manish Pandey should be kicking himself. Got enough opportunities, just didn't make use of those. He was in great form coming into this series, for India, that too away in Australia. But he totally lost an opportunity to make the spot his own.
Think his competition is with Rahane and Rahul rather than Jadhav....... Jadhav would be v Raina, and the former has pretty much won it for now.
I still very much have my doubts about Axar, would like to see Jayant given more opportunities as the spinning all-rounder backup to Jadeja. And Mishra, like Imran Tahir and Adil Rashid looks a much better ODI bowler than a test one.

Tahir, Rashid, and Australia's Adam Zampa, all legspinners, all their first choice spinners in ODIs. Not quite making it at the test level. What could be the possible explanation?

Pakistan's Yasir Shah, seems to be the only current legspinner who is an all-format bowler.......

msp83 wrote:MS should give up captaincy and focus on his keeping and batting. He's the best keeper to spin, by a country mail. Nobody else currently going around, would come close to him. As a batsman he's the same any more, yet is capable of making a significant contribution, but only up the order.......
Agree on Rohit, won't be challenged as such, and to be fair, shouldn't be, at least as of now. Not my favorite player, but will have to live with him, and in limited overs, he can be a handful, particularly on flattish tracks, and most ODIs are played on such tracks these days.
Rahane just hasn't done enough. And when Rahul returns, he most certainly have to give way. Ajinkya can't bat in the middle order in ODIs, he doesn't rotate strike that well particularly  against spin. And he's not a number 6 kind of material. If he bats 4, that would in addition means MS will have to move down to 5. He's more suited to bat 4 these days, and in that position, he's much better than Rahane.
Manish Pandey should be kicking himself. Got enough opportunities, just didn't make use of those. He was in great form coming into this series, for India, that too away in Australia. But he totally lost an opportunity to make the spot his own.
Think his competition is with Rahane and Rahul rather than Jadhav....... Jadhav would be v Raina, and the former has pretty much won it for now.
I still very much have my doubts about Axar, would like to see Jayant given more opportunities as the spinning all-rounder backup to Jadeja. And Mishra, like Imran Tahir and Adil Rashid looks a much better ODI bowler than a test one.

Mishra is world class test spinner....same class as Danish Kaneria and not too diffrent from Yaser shah......just below Warne and significantly above Rashid , Tahir etal
remember Mishra's shows and some absolutely ripper of magical deliveries in lanka.... where against the run of play he plucked out wickets by sheer unplayable deliveries
Abd  he gave an OK good account of himself in WI and vs SA in the games he played.....India will need 3 spinners vs Eng...so he will play for sure.

there is Dhawan also in line for the openers slot.....and so Pandey, Rahane, Dhawan, Rahul and don't forget Raina wiill all be in the run for two positions

msp83 wrote:Pakistan's Yasir Shah, seems to be the only current legspinner who is an all-format bowler.......

Yasir isn't a limited overs bowler...rarely playes limited overs cricket, and when he does, he goes the distance..

Oh yeah, even Yasir isn't a limited overs regular....... Hasn't played the recent series against the WI.

KPF, think Mishra is far too inconsistent in tests. He was good in Sri Lanka, was decent against South Africa, wasn't really good in the West Indies, particularly in the 2nd test where he consistently bowled poor lengths and bowled himself out of the side. Jadeja would be my 2nd spinner any day. Yes I do note you mentioned the 3rd spinner, but that won't happen, as Kohli would want his chum in the side at any cost, and for ones, Rohit did looke like a semi decent test batsman. If the tracks are turning a mile from ball one, perhaps they can do with only 1 seamer, and that's the only way Mishra can make it as a 3rd spinner.

msp83 wrote:KPF, think Mishra is far too inconsistent in tests. He was good in Sri Lanka, was decent against South Africa, wasn't really good in the West Indies, particularly in the 2nd test where he consistently bowled poor lengths and bowled himself out of the side. Jadeja would be my 2nd spinner any day. Yes I do note you mentioned the 3rd spinner, but that won't happen, as Kohli would want his chum in the side at any cost, and for ones, Rohit did looke like a semi decent test batsman. If the tracks are turning a mile from ball one, perhaps they can do with only 1 seamer, and that's the only way Mishra can make it as a 3rd spinner.

One mediocre test match doesn't take away anything.
On non spinning pitches...Mishra produces more wicket taking deliveries...especially in the second inning.

we saw that vs NZ our spinners were bowling 150 overs between them and seamers only 40 overs.....in 4 innings....and 90% of the wickets were taken by spinners.
so we need 3 spinners given that it's a 5 test series...to keep all 3 of them going through all 5 tests.....

how they fit 3 spinners??? equation is simple...drop a batsman......one of the openers

And get Rohit the ODI opener to open? Else, it would mean Kohli batting at 3 a task he's not best suited for, Rahane at 4 and Sharma at 5....... Rohit is far too high at 5 when he's batting in the middle order, particularly when there would only be Ashwin Saha and Jadeja to follow as batting options. Such gimmicks can be pulled off against 4th rate West Indies test side, not against a proper side like England.
So either Umesh or Rohit will have to sit out. The 2nd won't happen with Kohli, and he usually wants the 2nd seamer.......

msp83 wrote:And get Rohit the ODI opener to open? Else, it would mean Kohli batting at 3 a task he's not best suited for, Rahane at 4 and Sharma at 5....... Rohit is far too high at 5 when he's batting in the middle order, particularly when there would only be Ashwin Saha and Jadeja to follow as batting options. Such gimmicks can be pulled off against 4th rate West Indies test side, not against a proper side like England.
So either Umesh or Rohit will have to sit out. The 2nd won't happen with Kohli, and he usually wants the 2nd seamer.......

I think out of 5 tests we will get about 1 or 2  pitches that will have something for seamers like the Kolkata pitch vs NZ
in those game 2 seamers for sure----in the remaining games it won't be unusual if India plays only one seamer.....like they did in one or two games vs SA last year.

it's less likely that they will play only 5 batters to acocomodate 5 bowlers.....however folllowing  would be my way to do it

1) Pujara to open and Kohli moves to 3 and so on.....
2) AND  5 bowlers are Pandya, Bhuvi, Mishra, Ashwin and Jadeja

batting all the way down to No. 11

Are you guys expecting "sporting" (ie spin friendly) wickets for this series or absolute pancakes?
The way I se it Ashwin is the trump card, you talk about spinners taking the wickets but really its been Ashwin. His recent record has been terriffying, especially given Englands record against quality spinners.
It seemed to work against NZ whos own spinners, much like englands, seemed to be picked from anyone who was available and willing to come along mixed with a desperate attemept to shore up the batting resources.

KPF I assume youve named the seamers there who can bat a bit rather than the ones youd seriously expect to get selected? Neither is exactly a Woakes/Stokes in either department, but India are less in need of those runs at 7/8/9 with their functioning top 5. I wouldve though Yadav and Shammi as attacking seamers would get the nod for some actual pace, certainly in a 4 man attack anyway.

Bangladesh though showed you can rely on a spin heavy attack against England and just two wicket takers (only 8 were taken by the supporting cast). Going by Ashwin and Jadejas similar dismantling of New Zealand having a 3 spinner attack seems sensible. Presumably 1 seamer and all rounder; the other as near to raw pace as they can muster.
The other approach would be to stack the side with 6 batsmen plus Saha, Jadeje and Ashwin adding real depth and the best two seamers they can find who can bowl long spells. Look to grind Englands seamers and morale into the dirt over a long back to back series on lifeless wickets. Ashwin you fancy could take wickets on anything right now.

The first and automatic seamer selection has to be that of Shami. He can reverse the ball, and can be effective with the new ball too. So I wouldn't go for someone like Pandya over Shami. Shami, if fit and available, plays .
Then for Umesh, it is debatable. He too can get the ball to reverse, but sometimes during the New Zealand series, Kohli was bowling him, just to justify his selection, and to give Ashwin and Jadeja a bit of rest. So Mishra can indeed come in for Umesh. Would add another challenge for England, who historically haven't been good players of legspin.

I just we have put it behind us, those flat roads of tracks on which they played test cricket. At least for the last 3 years, we have been getting those good for nothing monsters only for ODIs, though for this New Zealand series, the tracks demanded that the batsmen actually earn their runs.
Expecting and hoping the tracks to be lively throughout for spinners....... And reverse should also play a part....... so someone like Stokes and Shami can make an impact from time to time.

The Pitches--> at-least 1 or maybe 2 will assist seamers a bit means a cover of green grass and / seamer's bounce ( i.e hard surface).....Most likely Mohali and one of Mumbai or Chennai

and the remaining pitches will be huge turn and spinner's bounce( i.e jumping of a length) and at worst variable bounce.
While winning the toss against BD meant a win for Eng....India has skills and temperament to overcome a lost toss...bundle out Eng on D1 for 250 odd and still score 350+ in their first inning......taking the 4th inning largely out of the equation. 

each one of the 5 pitches  should offer reverse swing....which I think Anderson and Stokes can exploit the best and mark Wood would have had he been fit.
and Eng really would not need more than Anderson / Stokes bowling in those 3 to 4 tests when pitches offer nothing special to the seamers.
That's my view.....Eng could play those 2 seamers+ 3 spinning allrounders + an extra batsman...and I would highly recommend Butler as a batsman,


5th Bowler/ 6th batsman / allrounders


This is about India's only problem...not a grand gaping hole....but one of fine tuning the balance of the 11....we were not pushed to the limit by NZ....but should a stronger side push us to the limit the strength of the 11th man will make a difference.....

3 scenarios for India to ponder over...

1) 4 bowlers  comprising of 2 spinners and 2 seamers and 6 batsmen
the problem with this scenario.....spinners are over bowled and 1 seamer under bowled....and since India is looking at bowling Eng out 10 times in the series.....2 spinners may be too heavily over-worked.

2) 4 bowlers.....of which there are 3 spinners and 1 seamer except on the 1 or 2 pitches that have more help for seamers...resort to scenario-1

( this is my preference.....and an adequate balance)

Now there are a couple of radical scenarios also...that over-analysis can lead the management into:

3) 5 batsman, 2 seamers + 3 spinners
the problem is batting is flimsy and in a tight game 6th batsman will be missed

4) Variant of 3) is to have two bowlers who are good enough to play as specialist seamers but  are better batsman i.e Bhuvi and Pandya..
I would play both actually .....as the 2 seamers
but would accept msp's suggestion also of shami as the first choice seamer + Pandya. Shami can hold the bat a bit thouhg not an allrounder.

and neither of Bhuvi or Pandya is a stokes...for as I said about a year or more back... stokes is a once is a life time allrounder of the quality of BIG-4

Bhuvi is closer to Woakes as a comparison....a  lesser version of Woakes
and Pandya is a slightly lesser version of  Andre Russell I would say

I looked at the schedule closely and for T1 in Rajkot we should see India play 3 spinners and 1 seamer

Don't think they would be thinking of Pandya in tests at least as of now. And between Bhuvi and Umesh, I would actually go for the former though Kohli has this thing about pace....... Bhuvi can swing the new ball, and if he can nip Cook in particularly early, that would be job don. The England skipper is going to be the biggest batting threat for India along with Joe Root. And during the last tour, though KP played one of the innings of his life to turn the entire series around, Cook was just so immovable throughout the series for the Indian bowlers....... And Bhuvneshwar can most certainly hold a bat....... But again, the 3 spinners makes sense, just hope they give lively tracks. Rajkot can be anything, can even be a return to the bad days of the flat monster....... or a track were Ravindra Jadeja will just utterly destroy the opposition.......

Nope...they have relaid the Rajkot pitch since last season.....it's alomost bordering on under-prepared....look at the bucketful of wickets Jadeja picked there and innings  40s and 50s were big game changing ones.....

rajkot will be a 3 day game most likely