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Canelo/Oscar's cunning plan...

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Post by Jermaine2015 on Sun 18 Sep 2016, 9:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

So now Canelo has won the WBO junior middleweight champion, according to the WBO rules, Canelo can get an immediate title shot at WBO middleweight titleholder Billy Joe Saunders - provided Canelo openly declares he is moving up to 160.

Everyone knows Gennady Golovkin is desperate to clean up the alphabet titles and is very eager to face Saunders next.

So could Golden Boy scupper GGG's plans again?

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Post by hazharrison on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 8:13 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:GGG v Lemieux 150,000
Alvarez v Khan 600,000

He didn't sell out the arena...Brook trying to make history did..

Give it a rest...

Alvarez had 51,000 in Texas..

More than the Macklin,Murray, Monroe and Geale attendances probably put together..

He's not PPV...end of story..

He's not even worth 10 million..



Golovkin has been breaking attendance records and selling out arenas - they could have done double the amount of tickets they did for the O2. Demand was through the roof.

Canelo is the draw here but a 90/10 split is ridiculous when you have an attraction in his own right as the B side. Let's hope they can agree a sensible split to reflect their respective drawing ability and we can talk about a fight rather than a business deal.

The sport needs this fight to happen quickly to avoid another Mayweather vs Pacquiao debacle (an atrocious "fight" that was good for business but terrible in a sporting sense).

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Post by hazharrison on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 8:15 am

laughing
Herman Jaeger wrote:Now we know why Canelo won't be fighting at 54 again:

http://www.boxingnewsresults.com/2016/09/canelo-inherits-new-problem-demetrius-andrade/

Back to 155 it is!

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 9:43 am

Canelo is a much bigger star than GGG. That isn't even up for discussion, is it??

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Post by hazharrison on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 9:53 am

AdamT wrote:Canelo is a much bigger star than GGG. That isn't even up for discussion, is it??

Who wants to discuss that?

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 9:56 am

AdamT wrote:Canelo is a much bigger star than GGG. That isn't even up for discussion, is it??

Haz isn't denying that at all.

He is taking umbrage with Truss' pathetic churlish contention that GGG is nothing more than a small hall fighter who can barely sell (based off one PPV versus a Canadian nobody really cares about and ignoring things like selling out arenas quicker than some big 'American stars').

If Canelo is twice the star GGG is (not an unreasonable contention) then that would still suggest a 67/33 split. Not 90/10.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 9:58 am

hazharrison wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:GGG v Lemieux 150,000
Alvarez v Khan 600,000

He didn't sell out the arena...Brook trying to make history did..

Give it a rest...

Alvarez had 51,000 in Texas..

More than the Macklin,Murray, Monroe and Geale attendances probably put together..

He's not PPV...end of story..

He's not even worth 10 million..



Golovkin has been breaking attendance records and selling out arenas - they could have done double the amount of tickets they did for the O2. Demand was through the roof.

Canelo is the draw here but a 90/10 split is ridiculous when you have an attraction in his own right as the B side. Let's hope they can agree a sensible split to reflect their respective drawing ability and we can talk about a fight rather than a business deal.

The sport needs this fight to happen quickly to avoid another Mayweather vs Pacquiao debacle (an atrocious "fight" that was good for business but terrible in a sporting sense).

Primetime Mayweather did 500k versus fellow Yank Berto. GGG does almost double in a lowly mid-afternoon slot fighting in another continent against a guy most Yanks have never heard of.

But yes, there's no interest in GGG.... Rolling Eyes

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 10:00 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
AdamT wrote:Canelo is a much bigger star than GGG. That isn't even up for discussion, is it??

Haz isn't denying that at all.

He is taking umbrage with Truss' pathetic churlish contention that GGG is nothing more than a small hall fighter who can barely sell (based off one PPV versus a Canadian nobody really cares about and ignoring things like selling out arenas quicker than some big 'American stars').

If Canelo is twice the star GGG is (not an unreasonable contention) then that would still suggest a 67/33 split. Not 90/10.

I believe a 65/35 cut would definitely be fair.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 10:02 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:GGG v Lemieux 150,000
Alvarez v Khan 600,000

He didn't sell out the arena...Brook trying to make history did..

Give it a rest...

Alvarez had 51,000 in Texas..

More than the Macklin,Murray, Monroe and Geale attendances probably put together..

He's not PPV...end of story..

He's not even worth 10 million..



Golovkin has been breaking attendance records and selling out arenas - they could have done double the amount of tickets they did for the O2. Demand was through the roof.

Canelo is the draw here but a 90/10 split is ridiculous when you have an attraction in his own right as the B side. Let's hope they can agree a sensible split to reflect their respective drawing ability and we can talk about a fight rather than a business deal.

The sport needs this fight to happen quickly to avoid another Mayweather vs Pacquiao debacle (an atrocious "fight" that was good for business but terrible in a sporting sense).

Primetime Mayweather did 500k versus fellow Yank Berto. GGG does almost double in a lowly mid-afternoon slot fighting in another continent against a guy most Yanks have never heard of.

But yes, there's no interest in GGG.... Rolling Eyes

Was Mayweather v Berto not ppv??

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 10:05 am

Doing good numbers on free to air is completely different to doing good numbers on PPV, people can spin the Brook fight all they want but he was the main selling point.

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Post by hazharrison on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 10:25 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Doing good numbers on free to air is completely different to doing good numbers on PPV, people can spin the Brook fight all they want but he was the main selling point.

Seems like Brook and Hearn really dropped the ball if Brook was the main attraction. They should have just fought Saunders or Jacobs.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 10:30 am

hazharrison wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:Doing good numbers on free to air is completely different to doing good numbers on PPV, people can spin the Brook fight all they want but he was the main selling point.

Seems like Brook and Hearn really dropped the ball if Brook was the main attraction. They should have just fought Saunders or Jacobs.

GGG is a draw. Uk boxing fans know who he is. In the end of the day his biggest wins are UK fighters.

Though Canelo is at the minute bigger draw. If GGG was Mexican, it would most likely be the other way around. In fact, if GGG was British, he would be absolutely massive over here.

I think Canelo should look for 65/35, but if GGG won't budge, then accept 60/40. I think if these guys fight, the ppv numbers will be very high in the states. Most certainly the highest since Mayweather vs Manny.

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Post by catchweight on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 10:43 am

Arguing about numbers only makes sense when the fight is seriously up for negotiation. Sometimes fights hit genuine snags a the negotiating table. Other times this rubbish is simply used as publicity stunts played out in the media to save face for avoiding fights. How anyone can believe Canelos team are seriously negotiating this fight after all thats happened is beyond me. They wont even fight at middleweight never mind fight Golovkin. Nothing more than stalling tactics on their part.

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Post by milkyboy on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 10:47 am

Obviously, if golovkin was british, US or mexican he'd be a huge star.  As it is, he doesn't draw particularly on his own.. he draws when there's an angle to sell for a fighter that can draw because of their nationality... lemieux in canada, Brook in Britain. He's a victim of passports in that sense.

Re the fairness of the split. Clearly he's worth more than $10m for this fight. You can entirely understand why he'd tell them where to go... but... $10m would be a career high purse for a fight he'd be strong favourite in. Personally, I think he should obviously try and get more... but if he can't, Call their bluff. See if they are prepared to have their golden goose slain for top bucks, or if its bluster. If they do mean business, knock the guy out... in a potentially transcending super fight. And then take that new found pulling power to be the bigger draw taking on the super middles or kovalev/ward.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 10:49 am


Does anybody on here give Canelo a chance, if they were to fight??

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Post by catchweight on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 10:54 am

Not really. Maybe 20% chance of a win. You would not want to let him hear the final bell if you were Golovkin (or anyone else) though.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 10:55 am

Canelo has already shared a ring with a far better boxer than GGG. He didn't win, but the experience wouldn't do any harm, plus Canelo looks much improved.

I think he has a chance.

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Post by catchweight on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 10:58 am

Lets wait for the second rounds of “negotiations” though. Where Golden Boy accuse Golovkin of not wanting the fight (for a lowball purse and a 155lb catchweight). And they line up Tim Bradley or someone like that.

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Post by milkyboy on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 10:58 am

Actually I do give him a chance. He's too slow on his feet to look good against slick boxers, but he always looks a lot better against guys who come at him. Obviously he usually has a size/weight advantage in the ring which he wouldn't on this occasion. Depends what canelo's punch resistance is like and whether his power commands some respect from golovkin.

Can't read much into sparring (but given we regularly hear how ggg knocks out cruisers) apparently their sparring 4 or 5 years ago was very competitive.

Golovkin firm favourite, obviously, but this would be his toughest test to date.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 10:59 am

There will be bullsh1t for sure. If this fight happens, it will happen next September. I really think it will.

These guys just want the highest payday available.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 11:00 am

Them sparring stories are a joke. It's not like he has knocked out Haye type Cruisers.

I never read into that. No a puncher like Thurman or Cotto could knock out journeymen middlewights/SMWs.

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Post by catchweight on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 11:08 am

Zero confidence now in Golden Boy being serious about this fight now. I mean they stalled it until they could literally stall no further. Even the pro Mexican WBC had to act. Then they just gave up the title and went off to fight Amir Khan and Liam Smith. They would be fighting at middleweight if they were really serious about it. They could have picked BJ Saunders instead of Liam Smith for example. They aren’t serious about though. They just have to try and save face because they are copping so much flak now.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 11:11 am

catchweight wrote:Zero confidence now in Golden Boy being serious about this fight now. I mean they stalled it until they could literally stall no further. Even the pro Mexican WBC had to act. Then they just gave up the title and went off to fight Amir Khan and Liam Smith. They would be fighting at middleweight if they were really serious about it. They could have picked BJ Saunders instead of Liam Smith for example. They aren’t serious about though. They just have to try and save face because they are copping so much flak now.  

Perhaps they aren't confident Canelo is ready yet. Oscar talked a lot of balls about another boxer ducking fights. He said Canelo will fight GGG, so hopefully he lives up to his word. I'm optimistic.

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Post by Coxy001 on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 11:11 am

Canelo doesn't stand much of a chance in my eyes. Odds reflect that too, SkyBet has GGG @ 1/4 whereas Paddy Power has him at 1/6.

Personally I thought Canelo looked overly average at the weekend, nothing I've seen from him suggests to me he's going to cause GGG problems and it's for that very reason that GBP haven't made the fight yet. If they knew their charge wasn't going to get splattered then they'd have made the biggest $$$$$$$$$ fight in boxing by now.


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Post by catchweight on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 11:18 am

AdamT wrote:
catchweight wrote:Zero confidence now in Golden Boy being serious about this fight now. I mean they stalled it until they could literally stall no further. Even the pro Mexican WBC had to act. Then they just gave up the title and went off to fight Amir Khan and Liam Smith. They would be fighting at middleweight if they were really serious about it. They could have picked BJ Saunders instead of Liam Smith for example. They aren’t serious about though. They just have to try and save face because they are copping so much flak now.  

Perhaps they aren't confident Canelo is ready yet. Oscar talked a lot of balls about another boxer ducking fights. He said Canelo will fight GGG, so hopefully he lives up to his word. I'm optimistic.

Take on some other middleweights then. Stop the 155lb catchweight rubbish. Whats the point of Khan and Smith in preparation for Golovkin? Its hard to take them seriously. They don’t want the fight.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 11:32 am

Well then, in that case GGG should lead by example. Step up and fight the winner of Ward and Kovalev.

If he bashes cruisers, these guys should be easy money.

Or if that's too big a jump, there some decent guys at 168.

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Post by catchweight on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 11:44 am

He could, but hes a middleweight. He fights at middleweight. Hes trying to accumulate all the belts and establish himself as a great middleweight champion. There shouldn’t be anything wrong with that. It worked for the likes of Hagler and Monzon.

If other middleweights don’t want to face him, or would prefer to invent their own weights – that should be on them. A champion who looks to establish himself as a champion of a weight class and beat everyone else in his weight class is a good thing. Champions being told to p1ss off because the rest of the division isn’t up for the fight is not.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 11:48 am

catchweight wrote:He could, but hes a middleweight. He fights at middleweight. Hes trying to accumulate all the belts and establish himself as a great middleweight champion. There shouldn’t be anything wrong with that. It worked for the likes of Hagler and Monzon.

If other middleweights don’t want to face him, or would prefer to invent their own weights – that should be on them. A champion who looks to establish himself as a champion of a weight class and beat everyone else in his weight class is a good thing. Champions being told to p1ss off because the rest of the division isn’t up for the fight is not.

So then, why did he call out Floyd Mayweather if he is a MW?

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Post by Coxy001 on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 11:54 am

AdamT wrote:Well then, in that case GGG should lead by example. Step up and fight the winner of Ward and Kovalev.

If he bashes cruisers, these guys should be easy money.

Or if that's too big a jump, there some decent guys at 168.

Why should he step up when the #1 fight us fans want is at 160? He's not exactly short of options around 160 either in the shape of Jacobs, Eubank Jr, Saunders etc.


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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 11:56 am

Coxy001 wrote:
AdamT wrote:Well then, in that case GGG should lead by example. Step up and fight the winner of Ward and Kovalev.

If he bashes cruisers, these guys should be easy money.

Or if that's too big a jump, there some decent guys at 168.

Why should he step up when the #1 fight us fans want is at 160? He's not exactly short of options around 160 either in the shape of Jacobs, Eubank Jr, Saunders etc.


Sure nobody wants to fight him at 160. So why not move up. People want to see him challenged. Plenty of ex pros want him to fight the winner of Ward/Kovalev.


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Post by catchweight on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:06 pm

AdamT wrote:
catchweight wrote:He could, but hes a middleweight. He fights at middleweight. Hes trying to accumulate all the belts and establish himself as a great middleweight champion. There shouldn’t be anything wrong with that. It worked for the likes of Hagler and Monzon.

If other middleweights don’t want to face him, or would prefer to invent their own weights – that should be on them. A champion who looks to establish himself as a champion of a weight class and beat everyone else in his weight class is a good thing. Champions being told to p1ss off because the rest of the division isn’t up for the fight is not.

So then, why did he call out Floyd Mayweather if he is a MW?

Money?

He is open for any middleweight challenger in his division. That's what matters. He has been actively trying to clean out the division and win all the belts. Whats wrong with that? If it wasn't for the ridiculous politics involved we could have one of the most dominant middleweight champions in history who had unified all the belts and systematically beaten all his competition.


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:12 pm

Coxy001 wrote:
AdamT wrote:Well then, in that case GGG should lead by example. Step up and fight the winner of Ward and Kovalev.

If he bashes cruisers, these guys should be easy money.

Or if that's too big a jump, there some decent guys at 168.

Why should he step up when the #1 fight us fans want is at 160? He's not exactly short of options around 160 either in the shape of Jacobs, Eubank Jr, Saunders etc.


Boxing fans want to see 90/10 fights instead of 60/40 scraps like GGG v Degale...

Boxing fans are pretty undemanding these days..

"If Mayweather had any balls he'd move up and fight Golovkin"...(130-160....).....I mean fancy feeding on Maidana and Canelo...Not like fighting the great Eubank jr is it ??? Cool

Some GGG fans are either hypocrites or plain retarded...Not sure which..


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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:13 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Coxy001 wrote:
AdamT wrote:Well then, in that case GGG should lead by example. Step up and fight the winner of Ward and Kovalev.

If he bashes cruisers, these guys should be easy money.

Or if that's too big a jump, there some decent guys at 168.

Why should he step up when the #1 fight us fans want is at 160? He's not exactly short of options around 160 either in the shape of Jacobs, Eubank Jr, Saunders etc.


Boxing fans want to see 90/10 fights instead of 60/40 scraps like GGG v Degale...

Boxing fans are pretty undemanding these days..

"If Mayweather had any balls he'd move up and fight Golovkin"...(130-160....).....I mean fancy feeding on Maidana and Canelo...Not like fighting the great Eubank jr is it ??? Cool

Some GGG fans are either hypocrites or plain retarded...Not sure which..


The worst fighters on Floyd or Manny's records, are better than 99% of GGG's opponents.

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Post by Coxy001 on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:14 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Coxy001 wrote:
AdamT wrote:Well then, in that case GGG should lead by example. Step up and fight the winner of Ward and Kovalev.

If he bashes cruisers, these guys should be easy money.

Or if that's too big a jump, there some decent guys at 168.

Why should he step up when the #1 fight us fans want is at 160? He's not exactly short of options around 160 either in the shape of Jacobs, Eubank Jr, Saunders etc.


Boxing fans want to see 90/10 fights instead of 60/40 scraps like GGG v Degale...

Boxing fans are pretty undemanding these days..

"If Mayweather had any balls he'd move up and fight Golovkin"...(130-160....).....I mean fancy feeding on Maidana and Canelo...Not like fighting the great Eubank jr is it ??? Cool

Some GGG fans are either hypocrites or plain retarded...Not sure which..


Go back to cheerleading your drug cheat hero RJJ!!!

Alvarez is the biggest fight out there for him. Batter him to pieces then take on Degale and potentially Ward or Kovalev (or both).

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:15 pm

He will never fight Ward. His team haven't the stones. He would be schooled pretty badly.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:20 pm

AdamT wrote:He will never fight Ward. His team haven't the stones. He would be schooled pretty badly.

If Ward was GGG...Some posters would be saying why fight Kovalev when you can fight Bute...

Got to laugh. .

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:23 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
AdamT wrote:He will never fight Ward. His team haven't the stones. He would be schooled pretty badly.

If Ward was GGG...Some posters would be saying why fight Kovalev when you can fight Bute...

Got to laugh. .

Ward is very ambitious and wants to prove he is the best since Floyd. Hasn't lost a fight since he was 12 years old and fought some very good fighters.

Not the easiest on the eye, but a class talent. I think he will out point Kovalev.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:26 pm

AdamT wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
AdamT wrote:He will never fight Ward. His team haven't the stones. He would be schooled pretty badly.

If Ward was GGG...Some posters would be saying why fight Kovalev when you can fight Bute...

Got to laugh. .

Ward is very ambitious and wants to prove he is the best since Floyd. Hasn't lost a fight since he was 12 years old and fought some very good fighters.

Not the easiest on the eye, but a class talent. I think he will out point Kovalev.

Like all disliked fighters he is running the gauntlet..

He loses he was all hype...

He wins Kovalev was a stiff who's best win was a Grandad..

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Post by catchweight on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:26 pm

The situations are not comparable.

Ward had a mechanism for getting the fights in his own weight class. He was given the opportunity to take on the top fighters in his division. Golovkin isn't. He has been denied the opportunity to take on the top middleweight names.

Rigondeuax is a better example. Systematically avoided in his own division. Maybe he should move to lightweight and beyond. (Insert some sort of comparison to Ward or Mayweather here)

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:31 pm

Double standard crap....He might lose at 168...

You like a fighter he should fight stiffs in the comfort zone.

You don't he needs to move up and get battered..


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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:36 pm

Are Brook/Macklin/Saunders etc even comparable to Froch/Kessler/Kovalev??

Brook is, but he had to climb two divisions.

GGG is a class MW, but I would like to see him in some good fights.

The fact that Eubank is even mentioned as a major player in the division, tells us what we need to know about MW.

I would like to see Chunky vs GGG. Probably make GGG favourite, but wouldn't bet my house on it.

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Post by Rowley on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:38 pm

I'm curious how many of us in our working lives would agree to work or do your job for a third of what we're realistically worth?

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:41 pm

Would hardly think 10million is a third of what GGG is worth.

Also to answer your question, I'd imagine none of us.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:42 pm

Rowley wrote:I'm curious how many of us in our working lives would agree to work or do your job for a third of what we're realistically worth?

Ask around the music section and come back and tell us..


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Post by Coxy001 on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:42 pm

Rowley wrote:I'm curious how many of us in our working lives would agree to work or do your job for a third of what we're realistically worth?

Truss wouldn't mind as daddy in law gives his missus handouts every day to live off.

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Post by milkyboy on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:43 pm

... depends if you're being offered double your salary when the going rate is quadruple your salary but no-one else is offering it.

It sucks but would you cut off your nose?

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Post by Rowley on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:44 pm

I meant worth in the sense of what a realistic purse would be for this fight Adam. If the estimates billing it as a 100m fight are correct I was working on the theory GGG must be worth 30% of that number.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:47 pm

Rowley wrote:I meant worth in the sense of what a realistic purse would be for this fight Adam. If the estimates billing it as a 100m fight are correct I was working on the theory GGG must be worth 30% of that number.

It's a very big fight, but I doubt there will be that much money at stake. I think Canelo will get about 25 and GGG would get around 15mill.

Anyway I do agree that GGG is worth at least 30%. I reckon 65/35 is a fair split.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:51 pm

Canelo doesn't need the fight..

Supply and demand....

Canelo gets loads regardless of the opposition..

GGG wants a big payday he'll have to compromise..

Where else does he get 10 million ??

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:51 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Canelo doesn't need the fight..

Supply and demand....

Canelo gets loads regardless of the opposition..

GGG wants a big payday he'll have to compromise..

Where else does he get 10 million ??

He can always call out Floyd again, or Manny!!

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Post by milkyboy on Wed 21 Sep 2016, 12:55 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Rowley wrote:I'm curious how many of us in our working lives would agree to work or do your job for a third of what we're realistically worth?

Ask around the music section and come back and tell us..


here's what they said (some big Jessie J fans on the music board):

It's not about the money, money, money
We don't need your money, money, money
We just wanna make the world dance,
Forget about the price tag
Ain't about the (uh) ch-ch-ching ch-ching
Ain't about the (yeah) bl-bling-bl-bling
Wanna make the world dance,
Forget about the price tag (OK)

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