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Southgate's England and the next England manager

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler Sun 02 Oct 2016, 1:33 pm

First topic message reminder :

Get to close the Allardyce thread in record time, now caretaker manager Southgate has a chance to stake his claim for the job, whilst we all discuss almost anyone else as the thought of Southgate worries many.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:30 am

Crimey wrote:It's well deserved. Been in fantastic form this season and is the best suited person to captain in that squad. 

Michael Carrick has always been overrated, there has never been a time where he should have been in the first eleven for England.

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Post by Crimey Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:39 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Henderson hasn't earned that captaincy. Jesus Crimey, don't be such a stereotype

There are two club captains in the England squad, Rooney and Henderson. It makes perfect sense. He was the best player against Malta and has been in great form this season. He also captained England at youth level. It makes perfect sense. Like it or not, he's also the 6th most capped player in the squad. Gary Cahill can count himself unlucky, but he's not going to be in the squads for much longer you'd have thought.

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Post by Crimey Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:40 am

Scott is Back wrote:Michael Carrick has been one of the best passer of the ball for the last 5 years, rarely loses posession, yes he isnt flashy, and doesnt do a lot to light the world up, but he does the simple things that go un-noticed, he is in no way overated!

That's exactly why he is underrated. Okay he does the simple things well, but the way fans talk about him you'd have thought he was on the level of Pirlo or Xavi, when he never has been. I can't think of a tournament in the last ten years where Carrick would have changed anything.

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Post by Scott is Back Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:55 am

Crimey wrote:
Scott is Back wrote:Michael Carrick has been one of the best passer of the ball for the last 5 years, rarely loses posession, yes he isnt flashy, and doesnt do a lot to light the world up, but he does the simple things that go un-noticed, he is in no way overated!

That's exactly why he is underrated. Okay he does the simple things well, but the way fans talk about him you'd have thought he was on the level of Pirlo or Xavi, when he never has been. I can't think of a tournament in the last ten years where Carrick would have changed anything.

I beg to differ - if he would have played more regularly, instead of trying to shoehorn Gerrard and Lampard in, who knows what may have happened.

He wasnt a central player in the Utd team for 10 years, at the top level for nothing. He isnt Pirlo, or Xavi....but he is comfortably on the next ledge down!

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Post by Born Slippy Tue 11 Oct 2016, 11:05 am

Carrick is massively underrated. He should have been in the England team for 10 years, rather than the constant attempts to play Lampard and Gerrard together. Arguably, he's still better than the midfielders we are currently putting out!

As for Henderson, I just don't see him as international class. Possibly the worst player to ever captain England? Have to agree though, he's probably the best of a bad bunch as I don't see a realistic alternative.

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Post by Crimey Tue 11 Oct 2016, 11:10 am

There wasn't a tournament in the last ten years where Gerrard and Lampard were shoved together in the centre though. 

Two games at the 2006 World Cup, but the other games had Carrick and Hargreaves playing with or instead of them. Didn't qualify for Euro 2008. World Cup 2010, Gerrard was on the left and Barry and Lampard played in the middle. Euro 2012 Lampard didn't go. World Cup 2014 Lampard played one game. Euro 2016 neither Lampard or Gerrard were there.

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Post by Ent Tue 11 Oct 2016, 12:22 pm

This hype around the England captain and Rooney doesn't help, just creates problems.

New manager shouldn't have a fixed captain.

Rooney ain't starting for united so probably shouldn't for England. No drama to be seen.

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Post by Scott is Back Tue 11 Oct 2016, 12:26 pm

Southgate made a bit of a rod-for-his-own-back with making Rooney Captain in the last game, it would have likely have been easier to appoint a different captain prior to his first match...unless he expected something amazing from Rooney, which would render him undroppable. Those days are long gone.

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Post by Guest Tue 11 Oct 2016, 7:55 pm

How on earth did they not score. We look a shambles at the back

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 11 Oct 2016, 8:14 pm

Have we ever fielded a pair of worse more unthreatening wingers than Theo Walcott and Jesse Lingard

Both are woeful
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 11 Oct 2016, 8:30 pm

Our best move of the night has resulted in Gary Cahill shooting from 30 yards

More sideways passing plz Henderson and Dier - that'll do it
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Post by Hammersmith harrier Tue 11 Oct 2016, 8:31 pm

Henderson and Dier is one of the most depressing central midfield combinations I can remember, we don't need a ball winner against Slovenia for christ sake.

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Post by Guest Tue 11 Oct 2016, 8:32 pm

Pretty safe to say, that Southgate has officially made us worse & is half-way through his reign. Beyond awful

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 11 Oct 2016, 8:41 pm

Just John wrote:Pretty safe to say, that Southgate has officially made us worse & is half-way through his reign. Beyond awful

The more depressing thing? The FA will probably appoint him permanently
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Post by Hammersmith harrier Tue 11 Oct 2016, 8:49 pm

That is some save.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 11 Oct 2016, 8:50 pm

Hart literally keeping this from being 2/3-0 to Slovenia single handedly
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:11 pm

Everyone Bar Hart has been Sunday league
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Post by Guest Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:12 pm

Pretty much the reason why Rooney will play on until 2018

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:14 pm

Imagine leaving Henderson/Dier on the pitch and taking off Alli
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:32 pm

Was hoping the Slovenian player was gonna deck Lingard there tbf
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:34 pm

Henderson again all running but nothing else.

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Post by Hero Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:36 pm

Yeah the England team looks so much better without Rooney. Oh no wait it's still crap and we'll have to find a new scapegoat now.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:39 pm

It takes more than one game, Rooney's continued selection has set us back a fair bit as it has with United, continuity without him in the side should improve things long term.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:47 pm

They're all sh1t lads - Rooney, Henderson, whoever - absolute rubbish

Thoroughly outplayed by a team ranked the same level as Burkina Faso, only two goals against the mighty Malta and a lucky last minute winner against Slovakia

Awful, just awful.
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Post by Born Slippy Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:48 pm

England aren't suddenly going to look better without Rooney as the midfield and wingers just aren't good enough. Henderson should be no better than a squad player and Walcott just won't cut it internationally. We need a fit Wilshere to add some guile and should probably be playing Rashford and Townsend as the wide forwards.

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Post by NickisBHAFC Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:56 pm

Safe to say Southgate is no where near good enough for the job, as expected.

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Post by Ent Tue 11 Oct 2016, 10:00 pm

He doesn't have any players.

Mourinho, pep, sir Alex, Wenger etc wouldn't do any better.

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Post by Guest Wed 12 Oct 2016, 8:24 am

Ent wrote:He doesn't have any players.

Mourinho, pep, sir Alex, Wenger etc wouldn't do any better.
Agreed, silk purses, sows ears and all that.

Only way Southgate can come out of this with any credit is if he makes another big call and permanently drops Walcott from the England set up. At least he swapped Theo for Andros (albeit a whole game too late) but then left Lingard on and took off Sturridge when Rashford out wide is a much better option. Still think Lallana adds more creativity, but even he would have struggled to make sense of what we were watching last night.... it seemed to be a game of "who can drop the biggest clanger"

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Post by Crimey Wed 12 Oct 2016, 10:20 am

To be fair you'd have thought Sterling & Lallana would have normally been playing ahead of Walcott and Lingard normally, and that is a big improvement.

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Post by Guest Wed 12 Oct 2016, 10:25 am

Crimey wrote:To be fair you'd have thought Sterling & Lallana would have normally been playing ahead of Walcott and Lingard normally, and that is a big improvement.
Both playing 'well' for their clubs but are absolute gash for their country...it's John Barnes all over again...except neither are a patch on ol' Digger.

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Post by alfie Wed 12 Oct 2016, 11:23 am

NickisBHAFC wrote:Safe to say Southgate is no where near good enough for the job, as expected.

Give him a chance , maybe ? Doubt anyone could work miracles in two matches... and he hasn't exactly taken over at a "good" time.
I have no idea whether he can do a job with them ; but the last few managers haven't led them to the Promised Land either...
I think we can wait and watch a little longer.

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Post by Guest Wed 12 Oct 2016, 11:42 am

Game losing defensive mistakes by Dier and Henderson - leaving Hart on a one on one situation with a Slovenian striker.  Very poor from those two.  Up front the midfield - striker attack was not incisive enough, they lacked penetration and coordination.  The team is not functioning smoothly - but the major issue is careless defensive mistakes. Maybe England have too many players that can't read the game.

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Post by superflyweight Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:22 pm

Why does anyone give a flying f*ck who the captain is? It won't make England any better. It won't suddenly turn them from a dour, unimaginative tier 2/3 team into a bunch of free-wheeling troubadours who'll entertain and astonish the world for the next decade.

Give it to the person in the team with the most caps and move on.

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Post by wisden Wed 12 Oct 2016, 12:59 pm

captaincy in football is massively over-rated, the captain literally does zero in football, so who gives a crap who it is

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Post by Guest Wed 12 Oct 2016, 1:43 pm

wisden wrote:captaincy in football is massively over-rated, the captain literally does zero in football, so who gives a crap who it is

Shut up, you can't expect just anyone to hand over a pennant and shout "heads/tails"

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Post by dyrewolfe Wed 12 Oct 2016, 1:58 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
wisden wrote:captaincy in football is massively over-rated, the captain literally does zero in football, so who gives a crap who it is

Shut up, you can't expect just anyone to hand over a pennant and shout "heads/tails"

Lol!

I suspect at international level team captains are largely irrelevant...or should be...as everyone should be good enough to know what to do without being told. However, on recent performances, I think England are desperately in need of some strong, effective leadership on the pitch.

Only caught the last half hour of the match and watched the highlights, (such as they were), but god that was depressing! I agree with whoever said we have become even worse under Southgate.

Its a damning indictment of the team that the much-maligned Joe Hart was far and away our best player. Were it not for him (and the woodwork) England could...and probably should...have suffered a humiliating defeat. For an international team we are an absolute embarrassment! Tactically clueless, technically poor and lacking any real desire to win. I've rambled at length about England's numerous flaws before, so I'll just settle for saying we are SO bad it makes me want to cry.

We spent SO MUCH TIME fannying about in midfield, passing side to side or backwards, I wanted to break my TV. We were slow, predictable and easy to defend against. Gave the ball away cheaply and in dangerous positions, made the wrong decisions time after time going forward and were out-worked by Slovenia when it came to pressing and cutting out attacks. Utterly pathetic!

I'm desperately hoping we don't qualify as I don't think I can face another Rio.
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Post by Guest Wed 12 Oct 2016, 2:10 pm

Thought Slovenia pressed exceptionally well, gave us no time on the ball and forced us into making untold errors all over the pitch and it highlighted how few players we have who can remain cool under pressure.

Maybe it's time England were given an absolute f*cking hammering and we basically tore the building down and rebuilt from the foundations up.

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Post by dyrewolfe Wed 12 Oct 2016, 2:11 pm

alfie wrote:
NickisBHAFC wrote:Safe to say Southgate is no where near good enough for the job, as expected.

Give him a chance , maybe ?  Doubt anyone could work miracles in two matches... and he hasn't exactly taken over at a "good" time.
I have no idea whether he can do a job with them ; but the last few managers haven't led them to the Promised Land either...
I think we can wait and watch a little longer.

Managers don't usually take over during good times, do they? Most of the time they are taking over because the previous incumbent didn't do a good job.

And it doesn't get any easier than Malta, Slovenia and Scotland. If you can't steer England to comfortable victories in those fixtures, then I'm sorry, but you don't get the job permanently.

You can say he hasn't had a lot of time to prepare, but how much time do you actually need to realise the current system and players aren't working and switch to system that might yield better results (say a good old-fashioned 4-4-2)?

Its not like he's had to study videos or scout Spain, Germany or Italy, to come up with a clever, complex system to beat some of the world's best players. He should have been able to throw pretty much any team together and get both good performances and results.

On the flip side I do blame the players as much as the manager. They're simply too stupid and blinkered. Apparently if you ask them to do anything other than what they are used to doing for their clubs, they suddenly become complete donkeys...and I'm not sure there is a manager in the world that can fix that.
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler Wed 12 Oct 2016, 7:43 pm

I don't care in the team sense who is captain, but you know the players want to be captain and it is an achievement for them. And it goes to Hendo. Runs a lot though

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Post by Crimey Wed 12 Oct 2016, 8:55 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I don't care in the team sense who is captain, but you know the players want to be captain and it is an achievement for them. And it goes to Hendo. Runs a lot though

Your suggestion was Eric Dier which is a lot more ridiculous than the current Liverpool captain and multiple captain at youth international level.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler Wed 12 Oct 2016, 9:46 pm

Id give it to Joe Hart, but that was as an outside, build into the role pick. Dier should be playing in that team, arguably as a centre back, for a long time so it's no concern.

Henderson doesn't seem to need to earn his place. He plays for Liverpool, so he's great. Although you're right, Liverpool have shown great mental strength in recent years

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 12 Oct 2016, 9:53 pm

I can't imagine Henderson is exactly rallying the troops - seeing as he can barely string a coherent sentence together at the best of times

Captain should be someone who's gonna be there long term - and can grow into the role. John Stones would be my pick. Calm head on young shoulders already, and is going to be in the team for the next decade. Don't care if he hasn't done it through youth level or whatever
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Post by Born Slippy Thu 13 Oct 2016, 12:45 am

Our first team should be something like:

Hart

Clyne Stones Smalling Shaw

Dier Wilshere

Sterling Alli Lallana

Kane

That, to me, is a team at club level which would be challenging for champions league places and should therefore be competitive at top international level. I'd have reserves as follows:

Forster
Walker
Cahill
Jagielka
Rose
Noble
Drinkwater
Townsend
Rooney
Rashford
Sturridge
Vardy

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Post by Crimey Thu 13 Oct 2016, 10:52 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Id give it to Joe Hart, but that was as an outside, build into the role pick. Dier should be playing in that team, arguably as a centre back, for a long time so it's no concern.

Henderson doesn't seem to need to earn his place. He plays for Liverpool, so he's great. Although you're right, Liverpool have shown great mental strength in recent years

Apart from the fact that he definitely did his earn his place, he has been in fantastic form this season. 

I don't think it'd make sense to play Dier as a centre back for England unless he starts playing there consistently at club level. 

I can understand why they'd worry about putting it on Hart, it was only a couple of months ago where the questions were whether it would be justified to even include him in the squad.

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Post by dyrewolfe Thu 13 Oct 2016, 11:59 am

Born Slippy wrote:Our first team should be something like:

Hart

Clyne Stones Smalling Shaw

Dier Wilshere

Sterling Alli Lallana

Kane

That, to me, is a team at club level which would be challenging for champions league places and should therefore be competitive at top international level. I'd have reserves as follows:

Forster
Walker
Cahill
Jagielka
Rose
Noble
Drinkwater
Townsend
Rooney
Rashford
Sturridge
Vardy


I'd be seriously tempted to change your line up to:

------------------Hart-------------------

Clyne----Stones----Smalling----Shaw

Townsend....Dier....Wilshere----Lallana

-----------------------Alli-----------------

-------------Kane-------------------------


...so we don't have a lone striker isolated up front and players to make better use of the wings (less temptation to try and play through the middle all the time).
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler Thu 13 Oct 2016, 12:25 pm

See, to me Henderson is the most overrated midfielder in the country. He hasnt improved on the parts of his game that needed it, and for England he has lost the drive and verve that made him worthwhile in this system.

Were England to stop pretending to be someone else and just play to their strengths then I'd have him as a destroyer, but I don't want him with a lot of the ball

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Post by Crimey Thu 13 Oct 2016, 1:14 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:See, to me Henderson is the most overrated midfielder in the country. He hasnt improved on the parts of his game that needed it, and for England he has lost the drive and verve that made him worthwhile in this system.

Were England to stop pretending to be someone else and just play to their strengths then I'd have him as a destroyer, but I don't want him with a lot of the ball

Ridiculous. 

For me, he's had a horrible past 12 months where he wasn't fully fit the entire time. He's now adjusting to a new role at Liverpool, playing as a "six" and so far he's been phenomenal. 

In central midfield England don't have better - Dier is good, Alli has stopped playing deeper, Wilshere hasn't had a fit year in about 4-5 years. Who else is there? Drinkwater is very one dimensional. I think Noble's time has passed, he's 29 now and West Ham have been awful this year. Even if you think Henderson isn't good enough, he's better than his competition.

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Post by Scott is Back Thu 13 Oct 2016, 1:17 pm

Crimey wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:See, to me Henderson is the most overrated midfielder in the country. He hasnt improved on the parts of his game that needed it, and for England he has lost the drive and verve that made him worthwhile in this system.

Were England to stop pretending to be someone else and just play to their strengths then I'd have him as a destroyer, but I don't want him with a lot of the ball

Ridiculous. 

For me, he's had a horrible past 12 months where he wasn't fully fit the entire time. He's now adjusting to a new role at Liverpool, playing as a "six" and so far he's been phenomenal. 

In central midfield England don't have better - Dier is good, Alli has stopped playing deeper, Wilshere hasn't had a fit year in about 4-5 years. Who else is there? Drinkwater is very one dimensional. I think Noble's time has passed, he's 29 now and West Ham have been awful this year. Even if you think Henderson isn't good enough, he's better than his competition.

Crimey - are you Jordan Henderson? You seem very reluctant to let anyone have an opinion on him.


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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 13 Oct 2016, 1:19 pm

He struggles to pass the ball to teammates

A serious issue for a central midfielder
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Post by Crimey Thu 13 Oct 2016, 1:21 pm

I just think it's crazy, I feel like the last 5 years never happened to anybody else and the opinions on Henderson are really outdated. Fair enough last year he was poor, but he was crucial to Liverpool's title challenge in 2013/14, Liverpool's best player in 14/15 (maybe Sterling) and has been great in the first ten or so games this year. 

People are free to have their opinion on him, I just think they're misguided. I don't think he plays as well for England as he does for Liverpool, but what player does play as well? He was man of the match in the Malta game and then was poor (with the rest of the team) against Slovenia. Seems weird to mark him out as a weak link when his competition for those spots is so poor. He's not exactly keeping out any talent.

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