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Who Can Become Britain's Next Real World Champion?

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 3:36 am

I've attempted to list the Brits who were generally regarded as genuine world champions (rather than title claimants). Rather than debate whether Fitz and Lennox were British, or the legitimacy of McGuigan's claim (which I've only really seen disputed on here) the intention was to talk about which current fighters have the best chance of emulating the fighters below (tried to get them all but may have missed someone and was genuinely surprised at handful of Brits who succeeded Lynch at Flyweight - do I have that correct?).

Regardless, it shows how infrequently Britain has been able to boast of having a genuine champ:

Bob Fitzsimmons - Heavyweight, Light Heavyweight, Middleweight
Freddie Welsh - Lightweight
Jimmy Wilde - Flyweight
Bennie Lynch - Flyweight
Peter Kane - Flyweight
Jackie Paterson - Flyweight
Rinty Monaghan - Flyweight
Terry Allen - Flyweight
Ted "Kid" Lewis - Welterweight
Jack "Kid" Berg - Light Welterweight
Randy Turpin - Middleweight
Terry Downes - Middleweight
Ken Buchanan - Lightweight
John H. Stracey - Welterweight
Alan Minter - Middleweight
Barry McGuigan - Featherweight
Lloyd Honeyghan - Welterweight
Naseem Hamed - Featherweight
Lennox Lewis - Heavyweight
Ricky Hatton - Light Welterweight
Joe Calzaghe - Super Middleweight, Light Heavyweight * disputed
David Haye - Cruiserweight
Tyson Fury - Heavyweight

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Post by Rowley on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 7:53 am

Would we class Degale as legit was he to beat Jack? I would fancy him to win that one.

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Post by Guest on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:00 am

Whilst he'd have a decent shout at being considered SM top dog, would anyone care?

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Post by smashingstormcrow on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:16 am

hazharrison wrote:
Regardless, it shows how infrequently Britain has been able to boast of having a genuine champ

Any countries of a similar size which can boast a better list?

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Post by milkyboy on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:58 am

lineal, unified, undisputed, perceived best... suppose it depends on your criteria as legit these days... as lineal becomes harder to track and unified and undisputed are rarely achieved holy grails due to politics.

Degale in principle would have a good shout if he beats Jack... but there's ramirez with the WBO and some no mark italian guys holds the WBA.

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 10:11 am

DeGale would be deemed the top man at 168, yes. And should he win, he'd have to face Callum Smith (so he'd be the next in line for a crack at a legit championship).

I don't want to get too hung up on terms (lineal etc.) as some posters get a bit bent out of shape about it but if the number one and number two ranked fighters fight, the winner can deservedly be deemed the real champ (failing that, if they beat the man who beat the man).

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 10:24 am

Crolla depending on how fast he gets his rematch :-)

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Post by AdamT on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 10:26 am

Degale is the obvious choice.

Also Anthony Joshua for sure.

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 10:28 am

smashingstormcrow wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
Regardless, it shows how infrequently Britain has been able to boast of having a genuine champ

Any countries of a similar size which can boast a better list?

Good point! Well, we're talking Britain here, rather than a single country but Puerto Rico is my first thought:

Trinidad
Ortiz
Escobar
Torres
Serrano
Benitez
Solis
De Leon
Calderon
Cotto

Not sure what Danny Garcia classes himself as?

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 10:30 am

Derbymanc wrote:Crolla depending on how fast he gets his rematch :-)

I think that would defo sit in the dodgy pile!

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 10:37 am

DAVE667 wrote:Whilst he'd have a decent shout at being considered SM top dog, would anyone care?

Yeah, I've warmed to DeGale. Like the way he's gone on the road and responded positively to what must have been a real gut punch of a loss to Groves.

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 10:50 am

How about Jamie McDonnell for an outside bet? If he can beat Rau'shee Warren, he'd be well placed to take on the division's top man in Shinsuke Yamanaka.

McDonnell would take that fight, too (and travel). Real old school guy and very underrated.

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Post by Guest on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 11:17 am

hazharrison wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:Whilst he'd have a decent shout at being considered SM top dog, would anyone care?

Yeah, I've warmed to DeGale. Like the way he's gone on the road and responded positively to what must have been a real gut punch of a loss to Groves.
Ok, ONE person would care.....

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 11:40 am

hazharrison wrote:How about Jamie McDonnell for an outside bet? If he can beat Rau'shee Warren, he'd be well placed to take on the division's top man in Shinsuke Yamanaka.

McDonnell would take that fight, too (and travel). Real old school guy and very underrated.

Very good point this, I was umming and aaaahing with putting Jamie before Crolla but I let my heart rule my head

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 12:54 pm

Derbymanc wrote:
hazharrison wrote:How about Jamie McDonnell for an outside bet? If he can beat Rau'shee Warren, he'd be well placed to take on the division's top man in Shinsuke Yamanaka.

McDonnell would take that fight, too (and travel). Real old school guy and very underrated.

Very good point this, I was umming and aaaahing with putting Jamie before Crolla but I let my heart rule my head

Was also thinking of him

vastly under rated, travelled and beat Kameda twice, even though Kameda was clearly the house fighter

He would have to travel and beat Yamanaka to do it though

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 12:56 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:Whilst he'd have a decent shout at being considered SM top dog, would anyone care?

Yeah, I've warmed to DeGale. Like the way he's gone on the road and responded positively to what must have been a real gut punch of a loss to Groves.
Ok, ONE person would care.....

Pretty sure a lot of people would care if he comes #1 at Super middle then gets fights with Groves, Callum Smith and GGG when he moves up

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Post by Guest on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 2:13 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:Whilst he'd have a decent shout at being considered SM top dog, would anyone care?

Yeah, I've warmed to DeGale. Like the way he's gone on the road and responded positively to what must have been a real gut punch of a loss to Groves.
Ok, ONE person would care.....

Pretty sure a lot of people would care if he comes #1 at Super middle then gets fights with Groves, Callum Smith and GGG when he moves up
DeGale isn't a popular fighter, there's something about him that suggests his new found humility is nothing but an act and that five minutes in a room with Groves would see him revert back to his former obnoxious self

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 2:35 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:Whilst he'd have a decent shout at being considered SM top dog, would anyone care?

Yeah, I've warmed to DeGale. Like the way he's gone on the road and responded positively to what must have been a real gut punch of a loss to Groves.
Ok, ONE person would care.....

Pretty sure a lot of people would care if he comes #1 at Super middle then gets fights with Groves, Callum Smith and GGG when he moves up
DeGale isn't a popular fighter, there's something about him that suggests his new found humility is nothing but an act and that five minutes in a room with Groves would see him revert back to his former obnoxious self

To be fair, Groves has changed since the first fight. He's bloody weird now.

Met him at a card in Seaburn years ago and he was a nice guy back then. I was a big fan and hated Chunky.

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Post by Guest on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 2:40 pm

hazharrison wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:Whilst he'd have a decent shout at being considered SM top dog, would anyone care?

Yeah, I've warmed to DeGale. Like the way he's gone on the road and responded positively to what must have been a real gut punch of a loss to Groves.
Ok, ONE person would care.....

Pretty sure a lot of people would care if he comes #1 at Super middle then gets fights with Groves, Callum Smith and GGG when he moves up
DeGale isn't a popular fighter, there's something about him that suggests his new found humility is nothing but an act and that five minutes in a room with Groves would see him revert back to his former obnoxious self

To be fair, Groves has changed since the first fight. He's bloody weird now.

Met him at a card in Seaburn years ago and he was a nice guy back then. I was a big fan and hated Chunky.
He'd get right up Degale's nose and it would be fabulous to watch Chunky unraveling before our eyes

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 2:56 pm

I think DeGale would be a lot cooler - he knows he has GG's number (Groves, bizarrely, looks faded).

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Post by Guest on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 3:30 pm

hazharrison wrote:I think DeGale would be a lot cooler - he knows he has GG's number (Groves, bizarrely, looks faded).
Degale doesn't have Groves' number, remember, Groves is the guy who won last time out. irrespective of how their careers have panned out since, Groves will always up his game for Chunky who will allow his personal animosity for Groves to get in the way of a sound gameplan. He's like Eubank Jr vs BJS in that respect.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 3:43 pm

If anything Groves has Degales number, I doubt he'll be going into that fight overly confident after their first encounter.

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Post by milkyboy on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 5:17 pm

He's beaten him twice. I'm sure that rankles. Groves does look like he's regressed a bit to me, though... can't put my finger on it, but he doesn't seem as mobile/agile since Froch 2.

Can't stand degale... arrogant, thick and monosyllabic makes for a heady cocktail of punchability.

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 7:24 pm

milkyboy wrote:He's beaten him twice. I'm sure that rankles. Groves does look like he's regressed a bit to me, though... can't put my finger on it, but he doesn't seem as mobile/agile since Froch 2.

Can't stand degale... arrogant, thick and monosyllabic makes for a heady cocktail of punchability.

Same here. Can't tell if he's severely weight drained or has lost something after that big, big KO (it happens).

I think DeGale would rout him now.

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 7:27 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:I think DeGale would be a lot cooler - he knows he has GG's number (Groves, bizarrely, looks faded).
Degale doesn't have Groves' number, remember, Groves is the guy who won last time out. irrespective of how their careers have panned out since, Groves will always up his game for Chunky who will allow his personal animosity for Groves to get in the way of a sound gameplan.  He's like Eubank Jr vs BJS in that respect.

I meant he knows he has his number now. He sees what everyone else can see. He's improved to become world class. Groves looks damaged goods (which seems odd considering he was in both Froch fights until the end). I gather Groves has taken a few hidings in sparring, though (from Eubank, Golovkin and Dirrell to name a few). Maybe that played a part?

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Post by Rowley on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 7:54 pm

Lost a lot of time for Groves post the Jack fight. Storming out of the ring like a mardy child is bad enough, but thought his treatment of Fitzpatrick was shameful. If he feels Paddy was to blame he is within his rights to dump him, smacks of scapegoating a bit but so be it. However slagging him off to pretty much any journalist who will listen for months was bad form. You sacked him within two days, we can all pretty much work out you blame him, no need to tell every person willing to listen about it. Complete lack of class from Groves on that one.

As for another fight I fancy Degale next time around big time. Was not a lot in it last time round and just think Degale has improved more. Groves seems to have convinced himself he is a bit more powerful than he is, looks like he potshots a bit now rather than throwing in volume. Think putting Froch on his arse has made him fall in love with his own power a bit much.

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 8:19 pm

Rowley wrote:Lost a lot of time for Groves post the Jack fight. Storming out of the ring like a mardy child is bad enough, but thought his treatment of Fitzpatrick was shameful. If he feels Paddy was to blame he is within his rights to dump him, smacks of scapegoating a bit but so be it. However slagging him off to pretty much any journalist who will listen for months was bad form. You sacked him within two days, we can all pretty much work out you blame him, no need to tell every person willing to listen about it. Complete lack of class from Groves on that one.

As for another fight I fancy Degale next time around big time. Was not a lot in it last time round and just think Degale has improved more. Groves seems to have convinced himself he is a bit more powerful than he is, looks like he potshots a bit now rather than throwing in volume. Think putting Froch on his arse has made him fall in love with his own power a bit much.

I hadn't seen a lot of Groves after the Froch rematch but watched Groves vs Murray. Murray looked shot to smithereens and Groves a shadow of what he'd been.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 8:22 pm

You've got Abraham vs Murray 2 to look forward to in that case, the winner presumably gets a shot at Ramirez which is a sad thought.

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Post by AdamT on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:33 pm

I have Degale as a big favourite if they fight again. The last fight was close. I thought Degale edged ot.

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Post by milkyboy on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:37 pm

Haz, I think the Murray fight is sadly as good as groves has looked since Froch! He fights like an old man now, flat footed.

Agree with rowley, a bit of post fight petulance is understandable with the disappointment of defeat, but the buck passing was pretty poor.

Super middle seems to be a division of tossers.

I'd have degale favourite v groves... but you can guarantee he'd go to sleep for 5 rounds to keep it close.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Tue 11 Oct 2016, 9:58 pm

I think groves has looked good under Shane

But then I'm a groves fan so I am probably seeing what I want to see....

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Post by alanqlm on Sun 16 Oct 2016, 12:09 am

What about Frampton as a possible for next in line. Doesn't seem interested in keep busy fights anymore. Santa Cruz rematch will presumably be followed by Selby and wouldn't be surprised to see him gun for Russell Jr after that?

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Post by hazharrison on Sun 16 Oct 2016, 7:41 am

alanqlm wrote:What about Frampton as a possible for next in line. Doesn't seem interested in keep busy fights anymore. Santa Cruz rematch will presumably be followed by Selby and wouldn't be surprised to see him gun for Russell Jr after that?

I think the LSC is a dangerous fight. I'd be a lot more confident if it was in NI. I think he takes the other two - Selby no problem.

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