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IRFU Finances - with ecumenical matter.

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 12 Oct 2016, 3:50 am

First topic message reminder :

Ok - don't say you weren't warned.

If you've no interest in spreadsheets, balance sheets, profit and loss accounts, annual reports, etc., then this topic is not for you. (I'm looking at you, Fly)

If on the other hand, there are Irish fans who want to know more about how finances in Irish rugby work, courtesy of published Annual Reports, media articles and mutterings, AGMs, then feel free to join in.

The intent behind this Topic is  for contributors to talk through/explain or ask questions about how different aspects of the finances in Irish rugby operate from grassroots through to National Team.  

Updated 26 Oct 2020

ESTIMATE
IRFU Expenditure 2019/20 - 15 months

Men's Test Team Costs
National tours, camps and squads 299,398
National match costs 2,616,509
National Team Management & staff 15 months 2,500,000
Mgmt/Test Player bonuses/match fees/insurance 2,750,000
Central Contract Test Players 14-15 X €500k avg 7,500,000
Additional 3 months of Test player salaries 1,875,000

Provincial Support Costs
IRFU exceptional contribution grant split by 4 branches 1,750,000
80 players x €90,000 contribution across 4 professional teams 7,200,000
65 players x €50,000 contribution across 4 professional teams 3,250,000
Additional 3 months of provincial player salaries 2,562,500
Rebate of Provincial Competition Income (CI) 16,029,521

Total expenditure cost for 15 months on Professional Game - €48,327,540.

That's just to kick things off.  Feel free to contribute.


Last edited by Pot Hale on Mon 26 Oct 2020, 12:06 am; edited 6 times in total
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 22 Oct 2020, 9:27 am

You really want to avoid the point dont you?

Ok let's rephrase things. You're happy that Saracens broke the rules for several years with the PRL being a bit toothless the first time around?

Or are you happy about a league that ignored recommendations and relegated poor Saracens who were simply doing what they thought beat by hoarding players they couldn't afford?

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 22 Oct 2020, 9:59 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:You really want to avoid the point dont you?

Ok let's rephrase things. You're happy that Saracens broke the rules for several years with the PRL being a bit toothless the first time around?

Or are you happy about a league that ignored recommendations and relegated poor Saracens who were simply doing what they thought beat by hoarding players they couldn't afford?

Not sure this has anything to do with IRFU finances, Number Seven and a half.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2020, 9:59 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:You really want to avoid the point dont you?

Ok let's rephrase things. You're happy that Saracens broke the rules for several years with the PRL being a bit toothless the first time around?

Or are you happy about a league that ignored recommendations and relegated poor Saracens who were simply doing what they thought beat by hoarding players they couldn't afford?

I've told you the point.

What you're trying to paint on me with loaded questions just underlines that you've either not read my posts or you wish to deliberately misinterpret them. Either way, it's not interesting or a worthwhile way to spend your time.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2020, 10:00 am

Pot Hale wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You really want to avoid the point dont you?

Ok let's rephrase things. You're happy that Saracens broke the rules for several years with the PRL being a bit toothless the first time around?

Or are you happy about a league that ignored recommendations and relegated poor Saracens who were simply doing what they thought beat by hoarding players they couldn't afford?

Not sure this has anything to do with IRFU finances, Number Seven and a half.

Spot on.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 22 Oct 2020, 10:04 am

Pot Hale wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You really want to avoid the point dont you?

Ok let's rephrase things. You're happy that Saracens broke the rules for several years with the PRL being a bit toothless the first time around?

Or are you happy about a league that ignored recommendations and relegated poor Saracens who were simply doing what they thought beat by hoarding players they couldn't afford?

Not sure this has anything to do with IRFU finances, Number Seven and a half.

No it doesnt directly.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 22 Oct 2020, 10:05 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You really want to avoid the point dont you?

Ok let's rephrase things. You're happy that Saracens broke the rules for several years with the PRL being a bit toothless the first time around?

Or are you happy about a league that ignored recommendations and relegated poor Saracens who were simply doing what they thought beat by hoarding players they couldn't afford?

I've told you the point.

What you're trying to paint on me with loaded questions just underlines that you've either not read my posts or you wish to deliberately misinterpret them. Either way, it's not interesting or a worthwhile way to spend your time.

Fair enough. You don't want to answer because its awkward for you.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 22 Oct 2020, 10:10 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You really want to avoid the point dont you?

Ok let's rephrase things. You're happy that Saracens broke the rules for several years with the PRL being a bit toothless the first time around?

Or are you happy about a league that ignored recommendations and relegated poor Saracens who were simply doing what they thought beat by hoarding players they couldn't afford?

I've told you the point.

What you're trying to paint on me with loaded questions just underlines that you've either not read my posts or you wish to deliberately misinterpret them. Either way, it's not interesting or a worthwhile way to spend your time.

Fair enough. You don't want to answer because its awkward for you.

Another lie. When will you stop?? The questions have already been answered and you're just screwing up this thread
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 22 Oct 2020, 10:15 am

You havent answered but I'll respect Pots request. Hopefully this comes up again in a more relevant thread and you can have a go at answering it.

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Post by PhilBB Fri 23 Oct 2020, 2:45 pm

To return to the topic in hand:

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/philip-browne-warns-of-drastic-cuts-as-extent-of-covid-19-damage-on-irfu-finances-laid-bare-39660338.html -> drastic cuts ahead

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/french-and-english-clubs-on-alert-as-irfu-opt-to-delay-contract-renegotiations-in-light-of-covid-impact-39659775.html -> the IRFU suspends all contact negotiations.

"The IRFU and RPI confirm that we are in continuing dialogue about a range of Covid issues including how best to proceed with contracting of players in light of IRFU financial uncertainty,” it read."

As the IRFU are the sole contract holder, as noted previously, this is the result.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 23 Oct 2020, 2:52 pm

From the narrative:

"the movement in bad debt provision of just over €16 million, which arose due to the impact of Covid-19 on the four Provinces where restrictions around match attendances has left Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster unable to pay their share of the player salary costs paid by the Union"
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Post by PhilBB Fri 23 Oct 2020, 3:16 pm

And, just like that, they publish an Annual Report without any financial information.
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Post by Pot Hale Fri 23 Oct 2020, 3:58 pm

"Turning to expenditure one of the first things to note here is the movement in bad debt provision of just over €16m. This arises due to the impact of COVID-19 on the four Provinces where restrictions around match attendances has left them unable to pay their share of the player salary costs paid by the Union. It would be very important to note that this represents a movement on a provision and should not be interpreted as a forgiveness of any part or all of this debt."

So the provincial branches do contribute to the costs of the player salaries.  €16m worth in this accounting period of 15 months.

Interesting report.
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Post by Pot Hale Fri 23 Oct 2020, 4:36 pm

"No tour took place during the period due to Rugby World Cup and the preparation costs for the tournament are charged against Rugby World Cup income resulting in the €1.1m decrease in national tours, camps and squad costs in schedule 3. Match costs decrease due to fewer Guinness Series matches and the postponement of the Ireland v Italy match. Player and management costs increase by €4.8m due to additional three months of payroll less savings in relation to bonuses. A special grant of €1m was also paid out to the Branches in 2018/19."

So professional game costs reduced on logistics, match preparation, etc reduced costs from 5.02m last year to €3.9m.   Player and Management costs increased from €40.5m by near 5m for an extra 3 months of payroll less bonus savings of €400k per month.  

So in budgeting terms, the Union provides for an equal contribution amount to pay the players in each province based on receiving a share of the players' salaries each year from each province from their own revenues.   The amount that each province can afford from their own ticket revenues directly affects how much they can pay the players in their squad and consequently the quality of player.     Thus, Leinster is able to afford a more valuable and costly squad than say, Connacht.


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Post by PhilBB Fri 23 Oct 2020, 4:36 pm

Pot Hale wrote:"Turning to expenditure one of the first things to note here is the movement in bad debt provision of just over €16m. This arises due to the impact of COVID-19 on the four Provinces where restrictions around match attendances has left them unable to pay their share of the player salary costs paid by the Union. It would be very important to note that this represents a movement on a provision and should not be interpreted as a forgiveness of any part or all of this debt."

So the provincial branches do contribute to the costs of the player salaries.  €16m worth in this accounting period of 15 months.

Interesting report.

It was noted previously in this thread that the branches contribute by adding to the grant they are given centrally. That was already known.

Why do you think the IRFU has provided zero financial information with this narrative?
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Post by PhilBB Fri 23 Oct 2020, 4:38 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
So in budgeting terms, the Union provides for an equal contribution amount to pay the players in each province based on receiving a share of the players' salaries each year from each province from their own revenues.  

How have you arrived at this, please? What's the reference?
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Post by Pot Hale Fri 23 Oct 2020, 4:50 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:"Turning to expenditure one of the first things to note here is the movement in bad debt provision of just over €16m. This arises due to the impact of COVID-19 on the four Provinces where restrictions around match attendances has left them unable to pay their share of the player salary costs paid by the Union. It would be very important to note that this represents a movement on a provision and should not be interpreted as a forgiveness of any part or all of this debt."

So the provincial branches do contribute to the costs of the player salaries.  €16m worth in this accounting period of 15 months.

Interesting report.

It was noted previously in this thread that the branches contribute by adding to the grant they are given centrally. That was already known.

Eh no. The branches were allowed a few years ago to start topping up the salaries of the 15 central central contract players who are not included in the provincial branch budgets. For example, let's say the IRFU pays the central contract of Jonathan Sexton up to an agreed amount of €500k so they don't exceed their salary maximums. Separately, Leinster can now also pay him from their resources say an additional €150k.

Josh Murphy, also at Leinster, might have a provincial contract worth say €100k to which Leinster commit paying say 75% and IRFU contributes through their grant, the remaining 25%. The IRFU may pay the player the full €100k but based on receiving €75k from Leinster from their revenues. As the Annual Report notes, if Leinster can't pay their share this year due to no season tickets, it "should not be interpreted as a forgiveness of any part or all of this debt."

€16m is a lot of salaries to come from the provincial branches own resources towards paying their share of the salaries of the 160-odd contracted players on provincial contracts.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 23 Oct 2020, 4:57 pm

Pot Hale wrote:

Eh no.   The branches were allowed a few years ago to start topping up the salaries of the 15 central central contract players who are not included in the provincial branch budgets.   For example, let's say the IRFU pays the central contract of Jonathan Sexton up to an agreed amount of €500k so they don't exceed their salary maximums.  Separately, Leinster can now also pay him from their resources say an additional €150k.

Josh Murphy, also at Leinster, might have a provincial contract worth say €100k to which Leinster commit paying say 75% and IRFU contributes through their grant, the remaining 25%.    The IRFU may pay the player the full €100k but based on receiving €75k from Leinster from their revenues.   As the Annual Report notes, if Leinster can't pay their share this year due to no season tickets, it "should not be interpreted as a forgiveness of any part or all of this debt."  

€16m is a lot of salaries to come from the provincial branches own resources towards paying their share of the salaries of the 160-odd contracted players on provincial contracts.

That's not how Rúaidhrí O'Connor explained it to me. I remember reading before about how the IRFU allowed a contribution towards a salary but how the Branch could top it up: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/leinster-face-chill-financial-winds-if-denied-riches-from-europe-1.2438647 so I read that as the contribution came from the RFU and then the Branch could say "we'll send you €x this season to cover these wages"

e.g."Leinster have become increasingly self-sufficient, with an annual turnover of about €15 million, excluding monies from the IRFU towards the cost of provincially contracted players. The union pays €90,000 towards 17 of these contracts, and €50,000 toward the remainder."

So, in that example from that article, the IRFU would pay €90k but Leinster could add on what it wanted.

So that's why I'm not following your view on this.

What the IRFU Annual Report shows today is that Leinster, in the example above, couldn't meet what it promised to add on top of the €90k.
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Post by PhilBB Fri 23 Oct 2020, 4:58 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
€16m is a lot of salaries to come from the provincial branches own resources towards paying their share of the salaries of the 160-odd contracted players on provincial contracts.

Well, yes. It's been obvious to many for years how well the IRFU pays its players.

Some have been fighting that fact for a good while.
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Post by Pot Hale Fri 23 Oct 2020, 6:19 pm

Once again, you have provided the answers to your own questions.  From that article (admittedly from 2015 so figures not in date)

"Leinster have become increasingly self-sufficient, with an annual turnover of about €15 million, excluding monies from the IRFU towards the cost of provincially contracted players. The union pays €90,000 towards 17 of these contracts, and €50,000 toward the remainder.
In Leinster’s case, this amounts to 27 of their 34 fully contracted players, and the IRFU committee was informed that the €2.3 million the union contributes towards these contracts is about €300,000 down on the comparative figure in 2006-07."


So - in 2015 - Leinster only got €2.3m** from IRFU as a contribution towards the costs of most of their players.  The other 7 players being on central contracts and paid from central funds of the Union.

We've actually reached the same point.  A player's salary is paid from two sources of revenue - the majority of it from the province's own resources/ticket income, with a smaller grant contribution from IRFU.   In fact, from the above article quote, it would seem that Development Player contracts are paid entirely by Leinster - approx 10-12 players, and the remaining 34 are split - 7 on central contracts, and the other 27 on provincial full-time contracts.

In practical terms, as I've set out before in previous posts, let's say the following players are on senior high value contracts:

Sexton, Furlong, Healy, Ryan, Henshaw, Ringrose are all on IRFU central contracts - Category A.   To keep it simple, let's say that the IRFU agrees to pay each player a maximum of €500k each.  Sexton and Healy through their agents negotiate separate additional deals with their province that secures them being paid additional 150k and 50k respectively.  

Cost to Leinster that comes from their budget - €200k.  
IRFU pays most if not all of the central contract cost - 6 x 500k - €3m.  

Next tranche:   Tracy, Ruddock, Toner, Porter, Cronin, Fardy, VdF, Conan, Deegan, Leavy, McGrath, Gibson-Park, Ross Byrne, O'Loughlin, Larmour, D Kearney, Lowe.  
17 players provincially contracted (see wording in article)  negotiated with the Leinster branch with a range between 175k-250k - call it average 230k.  
Leinster Branch budget for 17 x 220k - €3.91m,
IRFU contribute 17 x 90k - 1.44m - 35% average of total cost
Cost to Leinster Branch budget - 2.47m - 65% of total cost.

Next tranche: Abdaladze, Bent, Dooley, Molony, Doris, Murphy, A Byrne, Keenan, C Kelleher, Penny, C O'Brien, O'Sullivan.  
12 players provincially contracted with a range between 75k-175k.  Call it average of €150k.  
Leinster Branch budget for 12 x 150k - 1.8m
IRFU contribute grant of 12 x 50k - €0.6m - 35% average of total cost.  
Cost to Leinster Branch budget - €1.2m. - 65% of total cost

Development Contracts: Osbourne, Frawley, H Byrne, T O'Brien, J O'Brien, R Kelleher, Sheehan, Baird, Dunne, Connors.   10 Development players x 65k average.
Cost to Leinster Branch budget - 650k

Total IRFU contribution to central contract players - €3m.
Total contribution from IRFU grant  - 1.44m + 0.6m - €2.04m.  
Total Contribution from Leinster budget - 0.2m +2.47 + 1.2m + 0.65m  - €4.52m.

The article notes that the contribution from IRFU was down 300k on a decade ago, and hence the need for Leinster to generate more revenues.    

Since the IRFU grant amount per player is fixed and in my example of guesstimate salaries, represent only 35% of total cost, then it is the province and its revenue generating capacity that ultimately determines what provincial contract players receive Since they have to pay the majority of it.  Thus the contrast in the quality of squads between Connacht and Leinster.

**The Ulster branch accounts refer to grant income of £2.4m received from IRFU for player salaries so this amount tallies with them being of this value and similar to other provinces.
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Post by Brendan Sat 24 Oct 2020, 3:08 pm

I think PhilBB is doing his usual reading what he wants.

Many corporations do what the IRFU do.  Each branch/department/company have to run their own accounts.  The money is all held in one fund but from an accounting point of view each entity only has a certain amount of funds in that pot.

As has been shown the provinces owe the IRFU €16m for player wages, the the provinces pay the player wages from their funds while the IRFU give a % for employing Irish. NIQ players are fully paid for by the Province which is why people say Munster are paying the 2 SA wages just signed. The person processing their wages will be the same person who is processing all the Munster wages.

The advantage as always is that this means that the provinces don't face cash flow issues like they would if they didn't pool resources.  It means one person can deal with the banks instead of each province and the IRFU employing 5 people to do the same job. Saves money and can pay more for the right person.

Hopefully the IRFU will be able to ride out the storm and get contracts sorted.
I wouldn't be to disappointed to see Sexton go (maybe Munster bias) as he breaks to much but others would be a bigger issue.  They can't go to England as the cap will be much lower so it will be France or Japan or like Rob Kearney the Force.

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Post by Pot Hale Sat 24 Oct 2020, 3:32 pm

Brendan wrote:I think PhilBB is doing his usual reading what he wants.

Many corporations do what the IRFU do.  Each branch/department/company have to run their own accounts.  The money is all held in one fund but from an accounting point of view each entity only has a certain amount of funds in that pot.

As has been shown the provinces owe the IRFU €16m for player wages, the the provinces pay the player wages from their funds while the IRFU give a % for employing Irish.  NIQ players are fully paid for by the Province which is why people say Munster are paying the 2 SA wages just signed.  The person processing their wages will be the same person who is processing all the Munster wages.

The advantage as always is that this means that the provinces don't face cash flow issues like they would if they didn't pool resources.  It means one person can deal with the banks instead of each province and the IRFU employing 5 people to do the same job.  Saves money and can pay more for the right person.

Hopefully the IRFU will be able to ride out the storm and get contracts sorted.
I wouldn't be to disappointed to see Sexton go (maybe Munster bias) as he breaks to much but others would be a bigger issue.  They can't go to England as the cap will be much lower so it will be France or Japan or like Rob Kearney the Force.

Let’s not personalise the discussion around Phil.

The provinces generate their own revenues to pay for salaries of staff, coaches, wider amateur branch requirements and players on provincial contracts incl foreign players.  

The monies are not all held in one fund.  Each branch has their own financial accounts, banking facilities, etc.
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Post by Brendan Sat 24 Oct 2020, 6:01 pm

If the IRFU do get into trouble financially would you rather the NZ & Aus model of trying to keep the internationals and lose the level below or do the Welsh model of let them go abroad while we have no money but their next contract will need to be back in Ireland.

I just hope if it does come to it that money is not wasted on the over 30s (except the very odd exception) so that we can get the most out of investments

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Sat 24 Oct 2020, 9:02 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Grass ain't greener on the other side either Phil! Where there are professional leagues there will be grumbles over ownership and money no matter what.

Untrue.

The grass is significantly greener where there is a ban on single ownership of multiple entrants, as proven by countless professional sports leagues across the world.
Is the grass greener when a foreign owner comes in buys your club, buys a bunch of foreign players and changes the colour of their kit and badge to appeal to a foreign market, like your beloved Cardiff FC?

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Post by Pot Hale Sun 25 Oct 2020, 1:37 am

Brendan wrote:If the IRFU do get into trouble financially would you rather the NZ & Aus model of trying to keep the internationals and lose the level below or do the Welsh model of let them go abroad while we have no money but their next contract will need to be back in Ireland.

I just hope if it does come to it that money is not wasted on the over 30s (except the very odd exception) so that we can get the most out of investments

Somehow I doubt the IRFU would use the WRU model of anything.

The IRFU have sufficient reserves to keep funding the game for another 12 months minimum. With the restart of PRO14 comps and Euro comps, some funds are beginning to flow again. The missing component is ticket revenue - at test level and provincial level. I reckon the IRFU would have to cut its cloth to suit. Probably a combination of keeping some experienced senior players and relying a lot more on youth - the academies continue to turn out players and cost a lot less. As ever, the middle rank will get squeezed. Except, will other clubs have spots open to take them?

Things could look very different 12 months from now with likely developments on vaccine and inoculation programmes being put in place. With one of the biggest pharma production concentrations globally, the country is probably better placed to access those vaccines early on in the programme.

But it's all a little too early to tell.
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Post by Pot Hale Sun 25 Oct 2020, 2:29 am

With the IRFU Accounts being published this week, and more recent figures provided on Income and Expenditure, the position for 2019/20 - a 15-month period to bring the union more into line with branch end of financial years looks like this in my estimation:

IRFU Expenditure 2019/20 - 15 months


Men's Test Team Costs
National tours, camps and squads 299,398
National match costs 2,616,509
National Team Management & staff 15 months 2,500,000
Mgmt/Test Player bonuses/match fees/insurance 2,750,000
Central Contract Test Players 14-15 X €500k avg 7,500,000
Additional 3 months of Test player salaries 1,875,000

Provincial Support Costs
IRFU exceptional contribution grant split by 4 branches 1,750,000
80 players x €90,000 contribution across 4 professional teams 7,200,000
65 players x €50,000 contribution across 4 professional teams 3,250,000
Additional 3 months of provincial player salaries 2,562,500
Rebate of Provincial Competition Income (CI) 16,029,521

Total expenditure cost for 15 months on Professional Game - €48,327,540.

From media reports and annual reports, it would appear that the IRFU contribute to salaries through grants of approx €2.5-3m per province - €10-12m total.  

Each individual provincial branch is required to come up with the balance of the salaries billed through Player Recharges by the IRFU.   This would normally be paid by the provincial branches though ticket income sales, merchandising, sponsorship from their own revenues.

The IRFU have made bad debt provision for €16m (€12.8m for 12 months pro rata) of Player Recharges not being paid by the provinces in current Covid environment for the accounting period of 15 months.  This figure would indicate:
Provincial branch contract player salary bill - €23-24.8m.  
Central contract test players salary bill - €7-7.5m
Total salary cost approx. - €30-32.3m.
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Post by Don Alfonso Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:09 am

Maybe if the WRU were as involved with their regions, someone in the Union could have explained to the Scarlets what "due diligence" is.

https://www.business-live.co.uk/professional-services/principal-shirt-sponsor-rugby-region-18697118

https://twitter.com/TheVietGwent/status/1320440742737838080

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Post by PhilBB Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:23 am

Pot Hale wrote:Once again, you have provided the answers to your own questions.  From that article (admittedly from 2015 so figures not in date)

"Leinster have become increasingly self-sufficient, with an annual turnover of about €15 million, excluding monies from the IRFU towards the cost of provincially contracted players. The union pays €90,000 towards 17 of these contracts, and €50,000 toward the remainder.
In Leinster’s case, this amounts to 27 of their 34 fully contracted players, and the IRFU committee was informed that the €2.3 million the union contributes towards these contracts is about €300,000 down on the comparative figure in 2006-07."


So - in 2015 - Leinster only got €2.3m** from IRFU as a contribution towards the costs of most of their players.  The other 7 players being on central contracts and paid from central funds of the Union.

We've actually reached the same point.  A player's salary is paid from two sources of revenue - the majority of it from the province's own resources/ticket income, with a smaller grant contribution from IRFU.   In fact, from the above article quote, it would seem that Development Player contracts are paid entirely by Leinster - approx 10-12 players, and the remaining 34 are split - 7 on central contracts, and the other 27 on provincial full-time contracts.

In practical terms, as I've set out before in previous posts, let's say the following players are on senior high value contracts:

Sexton, Furlong, Healy, Ryan, Henshaw, Ringrose are all on IRFU central contracts - Category A.   To keep it simple, let's say that the IRFU agrees to pay each player a maximum of €500k each.  Sexton and Healy through their agents negotiate separate additional deals with their province that secures them being paid additional 150k and 50k respectively.  

Cost to Leinster that comes from their budget - €200k.  
IRFU pays most if not all of the central contract cost - 6 x 500k - €3m.  

Next tranche:   Tracy, Ruddock, Toner, Porter, Cronin, Fardy, VdF, Conan, Deegan, Leavy, McGrath, Gibson-Park, Ross Byrne, O'Loughlin, Larmour, D Kearney, Lowe.  
17 players provincially contracted (see wording in article)  negotiated with the Leinster branch with a range between 175k-250k - call it average 230k.  
Leinster Branch budget for 17 x 220k - €3.91m,
IRFU contribute 17 x 90k - 1.44m - 35% average of total cost
Cost to Leinster Branch budget - 2.47m - 65% of total cost.

Next tranche: Abdaladze, Bent, Dooley, Molony, Doris, Murphy, A Byrne, Keenan, C Kelleher, Penny, C O'Brien, O'Sullivan.  
12 players provincially contracted with a range between 75k-175k.  Call it average of €150k.  
Leinster Branch budget for 12 x 150k - 1.8m
IRFU contribute grant of 12 x 50k - €0.6m - 35% average of total cost.  
Cost to Leinster Branch budget - €1.2m. - 65% of total cost

Development Contracts: Osbourne, Frawley, H Byrne, T O'Brien, J O'Brien, R Kelleher, Sheehan, Baird, Dunne, Connors.   10 Development players x 65k average.
Cost to Leinster Branch budget - 650k

Total IRFU contribution to central contract players - €3m.
Total contribution from IRFU grant  - 1.44m + 0.6m - €2.04m.  
Total Contribution from Leinster budget - 0.2m +2.47 + 1.2m + 0.65m  - €4.52m.

The article notes that the contribution from IRFU was down 300k on a decade ago, and hence the need for Leinster to generate more revenues.    

Since the IRFU grant amount per player is fixed and in my example of guesstimate salaries, represent only 35% of total cost, then it is the province and its revenue generating capacity that ultimately determines what provincial contract players receive Since they have to pay the majority of it.  Thus the contrast in the quality of squads between Connacht and Leinster.

**The Ulster branch accounts refer to grant income of £2.4m received from IRFU for player salaries so this amount tallies with them being of this value and similar to other provinces.  

The problem with that, of course, is that the article is 5 years out of date and the IRFU have pumped in significantly more funds since then.

And the other problem with your maths is that the IRFU just budgeted for a bad loss of over €16m, thus casting huge doubts on your g-estimate salaries

In a 15 month period when the spend on player and management wages was €45m, the bad debt provision was just €16m. That tells you that €29m came from somewhere else......
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Post by PhilBB Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:24 am

Brendan wrote: the provinces pay the player wages from their funds

No, they don't. The IRFU pay the players. We know this because the IRFU employ the players. You're not grasping something very, very, very simple.
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Post by PhilBB Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:26 am

Pot Hale wrote:

The provinces generate their own revenues to pay for TOWARDS salaries of staff, coaches, wider amateur branch requirements and players on provincial contracts incl foreign players.  

The monies are not all held in one fund.  Each branch has their own financial accounts, banking facilities, etc.

That's another misrepresentation as you missed out the word "towards", so I added it in for you for the sake of accuracy
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Post by PhilBB Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:27 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Grass ain't greener on the other side either Phil! Where there are professional leagues there will be grumbles over ownership and money no matter what.

Untrue.

The grass is significantly greener where there is a ban on single ownership of multiple entrants, as proven by countless professional sports leagues across the world.
Is the grass greener when a foreign owner comes in buys your club, buys a bunch of foreign players and changes the colour of their kit and badge to appeal to a foreign market, like your beloved Cardiff FC?

I don't follow soccer, mate, but that owner had to reverse his decision and Cardiff City FC now play in Blue.

Fan power, right?
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Post by PhilBB Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:30 am

Don Alfonso wrote:Maybe if the WRU were as involved with their regions, someone in the Union could have explained to the Scarlets what "due diligence" is.

https://www.business-live.co.uk/professional-services/principal-shirt-sponsor-rugby-region-18697118

https://twitter.com/TheVietGwent/status/1320440742737838080

Jeez, you've quoted Geraint Powell!! That's hilarious.

Powell is famously stupid, a man who failed at his career and a man whose legal knowledge has been ridiculed time after time by anybody with a basic understanding.

p.s. due diligence doesn't quite work here when you consider what the bankruptcy hearing may discover, so let's not tread on that legal eggshell.
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Post by PhilBB Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:33 am

Pot Hale wrote:With the IRFU Accounts being published this week, and more recent figures provided on Income and Expenditure, the position for 2019/20 - a 15-month period to bring the union more into line with branch end of financial years looks like this in my estimation:

IRFU Expenditure 2019/20 - 15 months


Men's Test Team Costs
National tours, camps and squads 299,398
National match costs 2,616,509
National Team Management & staff 15 months 2,500,000
Mgmt/Test Player bonuses/match fees/insurance 2,750,000
Central Contract Test Players 14-15 X €500k avg 7,500,000
Additional 3 months of Test player salaries 1,875,000

Provincial Support Costs
IRFU exceptional contribution grant split by 4 branches 1,750,000
80 players x €90,000 contribution across 4 professional teams 7,200,000
65 players x €50,000 contribution across 4 professional teams 3,250,000
Additional 3 months of provincial player salaries 2,562,500
Rebate of Provincial Competition Income (CI) 16,029,521

Total expenditure cost for 15 months on Professional Game - €48,327,540.

From media reports and annual reports, it would appear that the IRFU contribute to salaries through grants of approx €2.5-3m per province - €10-12m total.  

Each individual provincial branch is required to come up with the balance of the salaries billed through Player Recharges by the IRFU.   This would normally be paid by the provincial branches though ticket income sales, merchandising, sponsorship from their own revenues.

The IRFU have made bad debt provision for €16m (€12.8m for 12 months pro rata) of Player Recharges not being paid by the provinces in current Covid environment for the accounting period of 15 months.  This figure would indicate:
Provincial branch contract player salary bill - €23-24.8m.  
Central contract test players salary bill - €7-7.5m
Total salary cost approx. - €30-32.3m.

How on earth have you got to €10-12m?

You've completely ignored the furloughing of players and staff from your figures and the contribution from the Irish and Westminster governments towards those costs.

Hang on, are you using those 5 years out of date figures of €90k and €50k???!?! Ignoring the additional sums the IRFU have put in since and working on figures 5 years out of date?
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Post by PhilBB Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:35 am

Pot Hale wrote:
Total salary cost approx. - €30-32.3m.

So you reckon 25% of the player and management costs is "coaches"?
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Post by Don Alfonso Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:36 am

Let's hope all these Welsh rugby stars who've lost money don't eye up paydays in France.

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Post by PhilBB Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:37 am

Don Alfonso wrote:Let's hope all these Welsh rugby stars who've lost money don't eye up paydays in France.

If they do, the IRFU might win a fourth Grand Slam.
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Post by Don Alfonso Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:41 am

PhilBB wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Maybe if the WRU were as involved with their regions, someone in the Union could have explained to the Scarlets what "due diligence" is.

https://www.business-live.co.uk/professional-services/principal-shirt-sponsor-rugby-region-18697118

https://twitter.com/TheVietGwent/status/1320440742737838080

Jeez, you've quoted Geraint Powell!! That's hilarious.

Powell is famously stupid, a man who failed at his career and a man whose legal knowledge has been ridiculed time after time by anybody with a basic understanding.

p.s. due diligence doesn't quite work here when you consider what the bankruptcy hearing may discover, so let's not tread on that legal eggshell.


Geraint Powell is not the journo who investigated and broke the story. You're dismissing a story because of who subsequently shared it online. Geez, that's hilarious!

So here - https://twitter.com/_AlexBywater/status/1320369990768513024

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Post by Don Alfonso Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:42 am

PhilBB wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Let's hope all these Welsh rugby stars who've lost money don't eye up paydays in France.

If they do, the IRFU might win a fourth Grand Slam.

Going by Wales-France game at the weekend, i doubt it will really affect Ireland's chances.

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Post by PhilBB Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:44 am

Don Alfonso wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Maybe if the WRU were as involved with their regions, someone in the Union could have explained to the Scarlets what "due diligence" is.

https://www.business-live.co.uk/professional-services/principal-shirt-sponsor-rugby-region-18697118

https://twitter.com/TheVietGwent/status/1320440742737838080

Jeez, you've quoted Geraint Powell!! That's hilarious.

Powell is famously stupid, a man who failed at his career and a man whose legal knowledge has been ridiculed time after time by anybody with a basic understanding.

p.s. due diligence doesn't quite work here when you consider what the bankruptcy hearing may discover, so let's not tread on that legal eggshell.


Geraint Powell is not the journo who investigated and broke the story. You're dismissing a story because of who subsequently shared it online. Geez, that's hilarious!

So here - https://twitter.com/_AlexBywater/status/1320369990768513024

As I know Steff and Alex, I know who broke the story. What I was laughing at was you linking to his worthless tweet on the subject.
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Post by Don Alfonso Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:45 am

Easily amused. Fair enough.

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Post by PhilBB Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:46 am

Don Alfonso wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Let's hope all these Welsh rugby stars who've lost money don't eye up paydays in France.

If they do, the IRFU might win a fourth Grand Slam.

Going by Wales-France game at the weekend, i doubt it will really affect Ireland's chances.

And by the same measure, losing some of those players won't negatively affect Wales' chances.
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Post by PhilBB Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:47 am

Don Alfonso wrote:Easily amused. Fair enough.

Anybody that chooses to take Geraint Powell as somebody worthy of anything other than complete ridicule is an individual on the wrong path, "Don".
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Post by Don Alfonso Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:51 am

Why are you putting my name in quotation marks? How weird.

"An individual on the wrong path". Such drama.

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Post by PhilBB Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:53 am

Don Alfonso wrote:Why are you putting my name in quotation marks? How weird.

"An individual on the wrong path". Such drama.

I didn't think that Don Alfonso was what's used on your birth certificate.
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Post by Don Alfonso Mon 26 Oct 2020, 10:55 am

PhilBB wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Why are you putting my name in quotation marks? How weird.

"An individual on the wrong path". Such drama.

I didn't think that Don Alfonso was what's used on your birth certificate.

No, it's a deeply weird Mike Oldfield single from the seventies.

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Post by Don Alfonso Mon 26 Oct 2020, 11:00 am

Maybe you should become an investigative journalist yourself.

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Post by Pot Hale Mon 26 Oct 2020, 12:04 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:Maybe if the WRU were as involved with their regions, someone in the Union could have explained to the Scarlets what "due diligence" is.

https://www.business-live.co.uk/professional-services/principal-shirt-sponsor-rugby-region-18697118

https://twitter.com/TheVietGwent/status/1320440742737838080

Flame throwing.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Mon 26 Oct 2020, 4:46 pm

PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Grass ain't greener on the other side either Phil! Where there are professional leagues there will be grumbles over ownership and money no matter what.

Untrue.

The grass is significantly greener where there is a ban on single ownership of multiple entrants, as proven by countless professional sports leagues across the world.
Is the grass greener when a foreign owner comes in buys your club, buys a bunch of foreign players and changes the colour of their kit and badge to appeal to a foreign market, like your beloved Cardiff FC?

I don't follow soccer, mate, but that owner had to reverse his decision and Cardiff City FC now play in Blue.

Fan power, right?
That's strange as you have claimed before to have supported Cardiff long before Vincent Tan took over. The fact is, it did happen, you never know what you are going to get with private owners.

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Post by PhilBB Mon 26 Oct 2020, 4:57 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Grass ain't greener on the other side either Phil! Where there are professional leagues there will be grumbles over ownership and money no matter what.

Untrue.

The grass is significantly greener where there is a ban on single ownership of multiple entrants, as proven by countless professional sports leagues across the world.
Is the grass greener when a foreign owner comes in buys your club, buys a bunch of foreign players and changes the colour of their kit and badge to appeal to a foreign market, like your beloved Cardiff FC?

I don't follow soccer, mate, but that owner had to reverse his decision and Cardiff City FC now play in Blue.

Fan power, right?
That's strange as you have claimed before to have supported Cardiff long before Vincent Tan took over. The fact is, it did happen, you never know what you are going to get with private owners.

No, I wouldn't have done that as I've never been a soccer fan. You are confused.

The best way to ensure you'll get what you want with private owners is via a Golden Share or via a Heritage Share. It's very, very straightforward to do. My own club has Heritage Shares.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Mon 26 Oct 2020, 5:11 pm

PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Grass ain't greener on the other side either Phil! Where there are professional leagues there will be grumbles over ownership and money no matter what.

Untrue.

The grass is significantly greener where there is a ban on single ownership of multiple entrants, as proven by countless professional sports leagues across the world.
Is the grass greener when a foreign owner comes in buys your club, buys a bunch of foreign players and changes the colour of their kit and badge to appeal to a foreign market, like your beloved Cardiff FC?

I don't follow soccer, mate, but that owner had to reverse his decision and Cardiff City FC now play in Blue.

Fan power, right?
That's strange as you have claimed before to have supported Cardiff long before Vincent Tan took over. The fact is, it did happen, you never know what you are going to get with private owners.

No, I wouldn't have done that as I've never been a soccer fan. You are confused.

The best way to ensure you'll get what you want with private owners is via a Golden Share or via a Heritage Share. It's very, very straightforward to do. My own club has Heritage Shares.
Or Leinster could avoid the risk and remain a member of the IRFU branch and continue their on field success and remain one of the top spenders in world rugby?

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Post by Pot Hale Mon 26 Oct 2020, 5:38 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:With the IRFU Accounts being published this week, and more recent figures provided on Income and Expenditure, the position for 2019/20 - a 15-month period to bring the union more into line with branch end of financial years looks like this in my estimation:

IRFU Expenditure 2019/20 - 15 months


Men's Test Team Costs
National tours, camps and squads 299,398
National match costs 2,616,509
National Team Management & staff 15 months 2,500,000
Mgmt/Test Player bonuses/match fees/insurance 2,750,000
Central Contract Test Players 14-15 X €500k avg 7,500,000
Additional 3 months of Test player salaries 1,875,000

Provincial Support Costs
IRFU exceptional contribution grant split by 4 branches 1,750,000
80 players x €90,000 contribution across 4 professional teams 7,200,000
65 players x €50,000 contribution across 4 professional teams 3,250,000
Additional 3 months of provincial player salaries 2,562,500
Rebate of Provincial Competition Income (CI) 16,029,521

Total expenditure cost for 15 months on Professional Game - €48,327,540.

From media reports and annual reports, it would appear that the IRFU contribute to salaries through grants of approx €2.5-3m per province - €10-12m total.  

Each individual provincial branch is required to come up with the balance of the salaries billed through Player Recharges by the IRFU.   This would normally be paid by the provincial branches though ticket income sales, merchandising, sponsorship from their own revenues.

The IRFU have made bad debt provision for €16m (€12.8m for 12 months pro rata) of Player Recharges not being paid by the provinces in current Covid environment for the accounting period of 15 months.  This figure would indicate:
Provincial branch contract player salary bill - €23-24.8m.  
Central contract test players salary bill - €7-7.5m
Total salary cost approx. - €30-32.3m.

How on earth have you got to €10-12m?

You've completely ignored the furloughing of players and staff from your figures and the contribution from the Irish and Westminster governments towards those costs.

Hang on, are you using those 5 years out of date figures of €90k and €50k???!?! Ignoring the additional sums the IRFU have put in since and working on figures 5 years out of date?

Phil, instead of being the hurler on the ditch, why don't you provide your assessment of the breakdown of the total Player and Management costs as set out in the Annual Reports?

You know that it includes:
Salary costs of the National Management Team and their bonuses
Test team player salaries (15 central contract players), their bonuses and match fees
Insurance,
Contributions (grants) to the provinces
Competition Income.

You can deduct from that what the provincial branches pay in player recharges for use of the full-time provincial contract players.
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