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Dougie's Mailbag: Pryor vs the best at LWW

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Post by hazharrison on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 6:04 pm

Doug Fischer from RingTV gave his picks when asked about Aaron Pryor vs the best at 140. Which do you think would have made for the best fight?:

FLOYD FANBOYS

Hey Dougie,

I hope all is well.

Good response to the Floyd Fanboy on Monday. It makes me laugh how far Mayweather’s groupies will go to accuse other boxers of the very things they’ll deny Mayweather did.

I’m sure you’ve seen or heard about the video on fighthype, where he’s said he never had to use his A or B game… yeah, ok Floyd. You struggled to beat DeLaHoya, Castillo and Maidana because you weren’t trying. This actually lead to me arguing with a friend about how he would have done with the guys he avoided in 2007/ 2008, namely Cotto, Margarito and Paul Williams. I think Cotto would have been a hard fight but Floyd could win. Williams is an even harder fight. But Margarito? The guy who threw 100 punches a round and ate bombs from Cotto and Cintron and Clottey and Williams for breakfast? against a smaller, less hard punching Mayweather that was getting out worked, bullied and repeatedly pinned against the ropes by an old, part time dela hoya? I can’t see how Mayweather could have beaten him in 2007-2008. Specifically after he got beaten by Williams and realised his next loss could end him as a top tier welterweight, and pre leaving a part of himself in the ring vs Cotto.

What do you think?

Another funny thing; we’ve now got Floyd and Ward fanboys saying Brook exposed GGG and it shows why Floyd/ Ward would beat him, ignoring many different factors:

Brook is bigger than Floyd, hits harder, maybe has a better chin, and took the fight to GGG. The only thing offensively Floyd has on Brook (at this point) is hand speed. Other than that it’s a complete different fight. In that GGG would probably show Floyd even less respect than he showed brook and will go after him non stop.

The same way Ward is bigger than Brook and GGG, GGG would (probably) respect Ward’s power and strength more and not be so careless defensively, and not throw as many punches that could lead to him being countered or punching himself out. Ward would also fight a lot more cautiously than Brook did.

Anyways, keep up the good work!

Aaron Pryor Mythical match ups, all @ 140:

Pryor vs Chavez

Pryor vs Duran

Pryor vs Meldrick Taylor

Pryor vs Tszyu

Pryor vs Whitaker

Pryor vs Pacquaio

Pryor vs Mayweather

Pryor vs Mosley

Pryor vs De La Hoya

Also, how would he have done at 147 vs Hearns and Leonard?

Have a good weekend.

(PS – I’m a black fight fan, before anyone in the “demographic” gives me stick for being racist in going against the grain with Floyd

Your skin color won’t stop the members of the “dummy-graphic” from calling you a racist and a sellout and a hater. Welcome to my world.

Regarding Mayweather’s latest FightHype interview, no I haven’t seen it. I haven’t read or watched a Mayweather article in its entirety since he shared his screwy views on racism in boxing late last year. I’ve got better, more constructive things to do with my time (like clip my toenails).

Here’s the bottom line on Mayweather and his diehard fan boys: they’re dips__ts. It’s a complete waste of time debating or arguing with them. (By the way, I agree that Mayweather at his best at welterweight could have beaten the prime 147-pound version of Cotto, although it would have been a very tough fight; and I agree that Williams and Margarito were just too big, too rough and way too busy for him to outpoint.)

I also agree with the differences you pointed out in the styles of Brook, Mayweather and Ward. Such observations are completely wasted on Floyd-huggers and “the Mental Ward.”

Finally, if Mayweather’s and Ward’s devout followers believe GGG was “exposed” by Brook they should encourage their heroes to get in the ring with the unified middleweight champ. Easy money, right? LOL. And if Mayweather is truly retired, then he should have no problem putting his super middleweight titleholder Badou Jack in with GGG. If “little bitty” Brook supposedly gave Golovkin fits, a solid super middleweight should have his way with GGG. Right?

As for Ward, I don’t think Golovkin is the fighter he need concern himself with right now. I have no idea why he continues to indulge goof-ball interviewers that continue to bring up GGG when he’s got the fight of his career coming up on Nov. 19. I know why his diehard fans are obsessed with GGG. (I wonder if they do?)

Your Aaron Pryor mythical matchups (all at 140):

Pryor vs Chavez – Pryor by close, maybe maj./split decision (great fight)

Pryor vs Duran – Duran by close decision, maybe late TKO (great fight)

Pryor vs Meldrick Taylor – Pryor by late TKO

Pryor vs Tszyu – Pryor by late TKO

Pryor vs Whitaker – Pryor by close, maybe controversial decision

Pryor vs Pacquaio – Pryor by close, maybe split decision (great fight)

Pryor vs Mayweather – Pryor by competitive but clear decision

Pryor vs Mosley – Pryor by close, maybe split decision (great fight)

Pryor vs De La Hoya – De La Hoya by close but clear decision

Also, how would he have done at 147 vs Hearns and Leonard? Hearns avenges his amateur loss with a mid-round KO; SRL stops The Hawk late.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 6:16 pm

Fascinating as ever, oh wait it's just your standard anti Mayweather garbage deceptively titled.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 6:30 pm

If someone wants to think Mayweather is overrated or Ward...

That's fine by me....Freedom of speech..

It's only Boxing...Haz.

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Post by hazharrison on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 7:50 pm

Oh, I didn't notice that bit!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 7:59 pm

ok... thumbsup

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 8:00 pm

I feel quite sorry for you really Haz, genuinely very sorry for you.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 8:35 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I feel quite sorry for you really Haz, genuinely very sorry for you.


How touching

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Post by hazharrison on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 10:04 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I feel quite sorry for you really Haz, genuinely very sorry for you.


How touching

I know. Lovely sentiment.

Anyway. I'll go Pryor vs Mosley for best fight (black bottle, cream and clear all thrown in).

And NO WAY does Oscar beat him.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 11:17 pm

Oscar never lost below 147.............Except for Manny at 145 and that was a shell.

Certainly wouldn't right him off so readily..

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Post by milkyboy on Mon 17 Oct 2016, 11:30 pm

I loved Pryor as a fighter but given his standout wins were against a great but smaller man, I think the myth is sometimes better than the reality with these match ups. Bearing in mind I would want him to win all these fights, my best guess is:

Chavez W pts... Not JCC's best weight.
Duran, L ptd
Taylor W tko (behind on pts, few seconds left etc)
Tszyu w tko
Whitaker L pts
Pacquaio L pts bit of a coin toss, just think manny might be all wrong for him
Mayweather L pts
Mosley w pts
Oscar w pts ... Unlike haz I think this would be really close... Think Oscar looked at his best at 140

Frankly I wouldn't have wanted to bet on any of them... Some great fights in there.

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 11:37 am

I'd go:

Pryor vs Chavez – Chavez by close decision

Pryor vs Duran – Duran by close decision

Pryor vs Meldrick Taylor – Pryor by late TKO (what a war that would have been)

Pryor vs Tszyu – Pryor by wide decision

Pryor vs Whitaker – Pryor by close decision

Pryor vs Pacquaio – Pryor by late TKO

Pryor vs Mayweather – Pryor by clear decision

Pryor vs Mosley – Pryor by clear decision

Pryor vs De La Hoya – Pryor by clear decision

Pryor vs Leonard - Leonard by decision

Pryor vs Hearns - can't decide!!


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Post by AdamT on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 11:42 am

hazharrison wrote:I'd go:

Pryor vs Chavez – Chavez by close decision

Pryor vs Duran – Duran by close decision

Pryor vs Meldrick Taylor – Pryor by late TKO (what a war that would have been)

Pryor vs Tszyu – Pryor by wide decision

Pryor vs Whitaker – Pryor by close decision

Pryor vs Pacquaio – Pryor by late TKO

Pryor vs Mayweather – Pryor by clear decision

Pryor vs Mosley – Pryor by clear decision

Pryor vs De La Hoya – Pryor by clear decision

Pryor vs Leonard - Leonard by decision

Pryor vs Hearns - can't decide!!


I agree with most of your predictions, but nobody Floyd's size beats him in a clear decision. You underrate him massively. Anyway I have bit, but boredom has forced my hand lol

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 11:44 am

AdamT wrote:
hazharrison wrote:I'd go:

Pryor vs Chavez – Chavez by close decision

Pryor vs Duran – Duran by close decision

Pryor vs Meldrick Taylor – Pryor by late TKO (what a war that would have been)

Pryor vs Tszyu – Pryor by wide decision

Pryor vs Whitaker – Pryor by close decision

Pryor vs Pacquaio – Pryor by late TKO

Pryor vs Mayweather – Pryor by clear decision

Pryor vs Mosley – Pryor by clear decision

Pryor vs De La Hoya – Pryor by clear decision

Pryor vs Leonard - Leonard by decision

Pryor vs Hearns - can't decide!!


I agree with most of your predictions, but nobody Floyd's size beats him in a clear decision. You underrate him massively. Anyway I have bit, but boredom has forced my hand lol

Pryor would be the best man he ever faced. His chin, work rate and skill would prove a nightmare for Floyd. I think it's a great style match-up for Pryor.

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Post by AdamT on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 11:46 am

Floyd would be the best man Pryor faced as well. Floyd is very elusive and can out speed the hawk.

You are entitled to your opinion of course.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 12:14 pm

I saw Pryor defend against Montilla years ago and Pryor was wide open and looked ordinary against an often beaten journeyman.......Took him 12 to get rid..

People tend to forget performances like this when he's beating the crap out of Floyd, Oscar and all the other Boxers.... Posters don't like.....on threads like this..

Not going to predict anything because I can't picture the fights in my head........Only to say I'd love to watch any of them.......








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Post by AdamT on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 12:18 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I saw Pryor defend against Montilla years ago and Pryor was wide open and looked ordinary against an often beaten journeyman.......Took him 12 to get rid..

People tend to forget performances like this when he's beating the crap out of Floyd, Oscar and all the other Boxers.... Posters don't like.....on threads like this..

Not going to predict anything because I can't picture the fights in my head........Only to say I'd love to watch any of them.......

Exactly! Why judge fighters on their worst performances.

Sure if we do that. We will look at Ali vs Jones or Norton.

How about Lewis vs Mercer and Bruno?

Leonard vs Norris/Camacho

The great Hagler vs old small Duran?

Pick holes in anybody's record.








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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 12:23 pm

I look at the poor performances as well as the good ones.......

Why I'm not writing anybody off against him....A lot of those fights are hard to predict...

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Post by AdamT on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 12:24 pm

I don't know how Pryor would do against all fighters. He was a relentless fighting machine at 140. Though he has his flaws too.

I would love to see him vs Duran.

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Post by AdamT on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 12:28 pm

milkyboy wrote:I loved Pryor as a fighter but given his standout wins were against a great but smaller man, I think the myth is sometimes better than the reality with these match ups. Bearing in mind I would want him to win all these fights, my best guess is:

Chavez W pts... Not JCC's best weight.
Duran, L ptd
Taylor W tko (behind on pts, few seconds left etc)
Tszyu w tko
Whitaker L pts
Pacquaio L pts bit of a coin toss, just think manny might be all wrong for him
Mayweather L pts
Mosley w pts
Oscar w pts ... Unlike haz I think this would be really close... Think Oscar looked at his best at 140

Frankly I wouldn't have wanted to bet on any of them... Some great fights in there.

Great balanced post as usual Milky.

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Post by milkyboy on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 12:30 pm

Pryor v Leonard and hearns would be at welter. The fact he edged out a teenage lightweight Tommy in an amateur fight wouldn't help him that I can see. He might have had a good chin but he didn't worry too much about protecting it. Tomny's chin always gave a chance to someone good enough to reach it, but I think it would be a slim chance for Pryor.

Much as I loved watching him fight, I'm not sure how winning a close great fight against a blown up arguello, and a great win to win the title against an aging Cervantes gives such confidence he'd be close to a clean sweep against the fighters listed above. There's nothing but a string of stoppage wins over limited opposition other than that.

It's a case of 'what if' with Pryor, we really don't know how that force of nature style blends with other top class operators of similar size in their primes. Pretty confident there'd be some cracking fights though.

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 12:31 pm

AdamT wrote:Floyd would be the best man Pryor faced as well. Floyd is very elusive and can out speed the hawk.

You are entitled to your opinion of course.

There's an argument to be had for Arguello (in my head at least).

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Post by AdamT on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 12:33 pm

hazharrison wrote:
AdamT wrote:Floyd would be the best man Pryor faced as well. Floyd is very elusive and can out speed the hawk.

You are entitled to your opinion of course.

There's an argument to be had for Arguello (in my head at least).

Well there is an argument to be had that Manny is better than Pryor (in my head as well)

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 12:36 pm

AdamT wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
AdamT wrote:Floyd would be the best man Pryor faced as well. Floyd is very elusive and can out speed the hawk.

You are entitled to your opinion of course.

There's an argument to be had for Arguello (in my head at least).

Well there is an argument to be had that Manny is better than Pryor (in my head as well)

He has the better record, for sure.

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Post by AdamT on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 12:39 pm

These debates are fun and often people will differ. It's all good!

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Post by AdamT on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 12:40 pm

To be fair, do many modern boxers have a greater record than Manny??

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 12:43 pm

Ray Leonard....

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Post by AdamT on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 12:47 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Ray Leonard....

No doubt, maybe Duran too. Though Pac has an outstanding record of names.

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Post by milkyboy on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:07 pm

hazharrison wrote:
AdamT wrote:Floyd would be the best man Pryor faced as well. Floyd is very elusive and can out speed the hawk.

You are entitled to your opinion of course.

There's an argument to be had for Arguello (in my head at least).

In atg lists it's certainly a debate that could be had... But whilst Floyd matured into being a fully fledged light welter,  Arguello was chancing his arm.

Floyd had problems with Castillo at lightweight. At welter, albeit late in his career, maidana gave him trouble with a swarming style... Though he was able to use a significant weight advantage on the night to help him. Pryor v mayweather would certainly be an interesting clash of styles. Your counter punching has to be on the mark against guys throwing clusters so you don't get done by the second/third/fourth punch... Or 10th in Pryor's case.

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:10 pm

Ali, Duran, Leonard, Whitaker. Probably Jones, Hagler, Maybe Chavez.

Floyd and Pacquiao are in a similar ball park with the likes of Arguello and Jofre (for me).

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Post by AdamT on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:14 pm

Jones and Hagler? Jones didn't have many great names on his record.

Hagler's best names were smaller guys.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:17 pm

Hagler above Mayweather and Manny is a joke.....

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Post by milkyboy on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:19 pm

And as if by magic, an Aaron Pryor thread has morphed into Floyd v hagler

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:20 pm

milkyboy wrote:And as if by magic, an Aaron Pryor thread has morphed into Floyd v hagler

You obviously didn't read the OP....

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Post by AdamT on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:22 pm

Come off it Milky. The whole thread was designed to bash Floyd. Obviously it was going down this road.

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Post by milkyboy on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:24 pm

I saw it, but skipped through the Floyd slagging to get to the bit that was in the title... To no avail obviously.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:25 pm

milkyboy wrote:I saw it, but skipped through the Floyd slagging to get to the bit that was in the title... To no avail obviously.

Contradicting yourself then aren't you....when you said it was a Pryor piece... Wink

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:27 pm

AdamT wrote:Jones and Hagler? Jones didn't have many great names on his record.

Hagler's best names were smaller guys.

Jones? He had Hopkins and Toney at or close to their best (and at their best weight).

We've done Hagler to death. Yes, Hearns was probably at his best as a light middle, but not many middleweights would have been able to contend with him the night Hagler did. He was in superb form and proved post-Hagler that he could beat middleweights (Roldan, Shuler, Olajide) and light heavyweights (Andries, Hill). Had Hagler not been around, I'm confident he could have won the middleweight crown.

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Post by AdamT on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:27 pm

Doesn't matter though, does it?

Is Floyd good? Or is he useless compared to the old timers?

Everyone has their own opinions, or agendas. Though I find the haters are less impartial than the fans.

I'm a Floyd fan, but no way would I say he is the best ever. However I do believe, he should be in the conversation. Manny as well! Also imo both rate higher than Hagler.

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:30 pm

But yeah, dragging it back to Pryor. Which would have been the best fight?

I thought Mosley but I'm now leaning towards a Meldrick Taylor CompuBox exploding cracker.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:31 pm

hazharrison wrote:
AdamT wrote:Jones and Hagler? Jones didn't have many great names on his record.

Hagler's best names were smaller guys.

Jones? He had Hopkins and Toney at or close to their best (and at their best weight).

We've done Hagler to death. Yes, Hearns was probably at his best as a light middle, but not many middleweights would have been able to contend with him the night Hagler did. He was in superb form and proved post-Hagler that he could beat middleweights (Roldan, Shuler, Olajide) and light heavyweights (Andries, Hill). Had Hagler not been around, I'm confident he could have won the middleweight crown.

That's just bollox...

Every fighter you like beats everybody in their prime.............Every fighter you hate beats a guy with a valid excuse.......

"Hagler ruined Mugabi"....Of course he did because we can't have Marvin struggling with a guy who never beat a top fighter in the whole of his career..

Leave it out..


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Post by AdamT on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:33 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
AdamT wrote:Jones and Hagler? Jones didn't have many great names on his record.

Hagler's best names were smaller guys.

Jones? He had Hopkins and Toney at or close to their best (and at their best weight).

We've done Hagler to death. Yes, Hearns was probably at his best as a light middle, but not many middleweights would have been able to contend with him the night Hagler did. He was in superb form and proved post-Hagler that he could beat middleweights (Roldan, Shuler, Olajide) and light heavyweights (Andries, Hill). Had Hagler not been around, I'm confident he could have won the middleweight crown.

That's just bollox...

Every fighter you like beats everybody in their prime.............Every fighter you hate beats a guy with a valid excuse.......

"Hagler ruined Mugabi"....Of course he did because we can't have Marvin struggling with a guy who never beat a top fighter in the whole of his career..

Leave it out..


Wasting your time.

Hernandez
Castillo
Corrales
Marquez
Hatton
Mosley
De la hoya
Cotto
Pacquaio
Canelo

Not a bad list of names on a record.

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Dougie's Mailbag: Pryor vs the best at LWW Empty Re: Dougie's Mailbag: Pryor vs the best at LWW

Post by milkyboy on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:42 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
milkyboy wrote:I saw it, but skipped through the Floyd slagging to get to the bit that was in the title... To no avail obviously.

Contradicting yourself then aren't you....when you said it was a Pryor piece... Wink

It was a Floyd slagging Pryor thread... That reached its inevitable nadir when hagler's name cropped up!

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Dougie's Mailbag: Pryor vs the best at LWW Empty Re: Dougie's Mailbag: Pryor vs the best at LWW

Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:44 pm

Thread is all yours..You Winker. . Cool

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Dougie's Mailbag: Pryor vs the best at LWW Empty Re: Dougie's Mailbag: Pryor vs the best at LWW

Post by hazharrison on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:52 pm

AdamT wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
AdamT wrote:Jones and Hagler? Jones didn't have many great names on his record.

Hagler's best names were smaller guys.

Jones? He had Hopkins and Toney at or close to their best (and at their best weight).

We've done Hagler to death. Yes, Hearns was probably at his best as a light middle, but not many middleweights would have been able to contend with him the night Hagler did. He was in superb form and proved post-Hagler that he could beat middleweights (Roldan, Shuler, Olajide) and light heavyweights (Andries, Hill). Had Hagler not been around, I'm confident he could have won the middleweight crown.

That's just bollox...

Every fighter you like beats everybody in their prime.............Every fighter you hate beats a guy with a valid excuse.......

"Hagler ruined Mugabi"....Of course he did because we can't have Marvin struggling with a guy who never beat a top fighter in the whole of his career..

Leave it out..


Wasting your time.

Hernandez
Castillo
Corrales
Marquez
Hatton
Mosley
De la hoya
Cotto
Pacquaio
Canelo

Not a bad list of names on a record.

Good fighters. Only greats, though, were past their sell-by-date (Oscar, Mosley and Pacquiao) or at the wrong weight (Marquez).

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Post by AdamT on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:55 pm

Ok what greats (the same natural weight) did Hagler beat??

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Post by AdamT on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:57 pm

Pacquaio past his best? Was Floyd at his peak??

You're a fantastic fisherman Haz. I will give you that! I'm the biggest catch of the day Wink


Last edited by AdamT on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 1:57 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
AdamT wrote:Jones and Hagler? Jones didn't have many great names on his record.

Hagler's best names were smaller guys.

Jones? He had Hopkins and Toney at or close to their best (and at their best weight).

We've done Hagler to death. Yes, Hearns was probably at his best as a light middle, but not many middleweights would have been able to contend with him the night Hagler did. He was in superb form and proved post-Hagler that he could beat middleweights (Roldan, Shuler, Olajide) and light heavyweights (Andries, Hill). Had Hagler not been around, I'm confident he could have won the middleweight crown.

That's just bollox...

Every fighter you like beats everybody in their prime.............Every fighter you hate beats a guy with a valid excuse.......

"Hagler ruined Mugabi"....Of course he did because we can't have Marvin struggling with a guy who never beat a top fighter in the whole of his career..

Leave it out..


Or maybe you're assuming that every time I pick one guy to beat another (that you don't agree with) you assume I "like" the fighter I've picked to win?

Here's one: I'm not keen on De la Hoya but think he'd beat - I don't know - Meldrick Taylor, say, at 140. Do I now "like" Oscar and "dislike" Taylor?

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 2:00 pm

AdamT wrote:Ok what greats (the same natural weight) did Hagler beat??

Who did he miss at 160? Who didn't he fight at middleweight? Who did he wait out?

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Post by AdamT on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 2:02 pm

hazharrison wrote:
AdamT wrote:Ok what greats (the same natural weight) did Hagler beat??

Who did he miss at 160? Who didn't he fight at middleweight? Who did he wait out?

That is ridiculous. His best wins are small guys, one of them over the hill.

Marquez was small, but Floyd outclassed him. Didn't see Duran outclassed by Hagler.

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 18 Oct 2016, 2:02 pm

AdamT wrote:Pacquaio past his best? Was Floyd at his peak??

You're a fantastic fisherman Haz. I will give you that! I'm the biggest catch of the day Wink

I agree they were both past their best (even with all of the special help they had). And I hold that against both (and the colostomy of a "fight" they inevitably got round to).


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