Eng in India

by KP_fan Tue 01 Nov 2016, 6:49 am

First topic message reminder :

England tour of India, 2016-17

Nov 09, Wed - Nov 13, Sun
India vs England, 1st Test
Saurashtra Cricket Association Stadium, Rajkot

Nov 17, Thu - Nov 21, Mon
India vs England, 2nd Test
Dr. Y.S. Rajasekhara Reddy ACA-VDCA Cricket Stadium, Visakhapatnam

Nov 26, Sat - Nov 30, Wed
India vs England, 3rd Test
Punjab Cricket Association Stadium, Mohali

Dec 08, Thu - Dec 12, Mon
India vs England, 4th Test
Wankhede Stadium, Mumbai

Dec 16, Fri - Dec 20, Tue
India vs England, 5th Test
MA Chidambaram Stadium, Chennai

Jan 15, Sun
India vs England, 1st ODI
Maharashtra Cricket Association Stadium, Pune

Jan 19, Thu
India vs England, 2nd ODI
Barabati Stadium, Cuttack

Jan 22, Sun
India vs England, 3rd ODI
Eden Gardens, Kolkata

Jan 26, Thu
India vs England, 1st T20I
Green Park, Kanpur

Jan 29, Sun
India vs England, 2nd T20I
Vidarbha Cricket Association Ground, Nagpur

Feb 01, Wed
India vs England, 3rd T20I
M.Chinnaswamy Stadium, Bengaluru

by Gooseberry Wed 30 Nov 2016, 8:48 am

alfie wrote:Hey Goose ....Yes I admit I was indeed oversimplifying re Gilchrist - as you have shown he did play 23 Test Innings in top 6 (you did mean Innings not Tests , right ? Although given Australia won a few without batting twice around that time it might not have been much different )
And you are correct to point out Flower , Sangakkara etc , have shown keepers can bat up the list for a prolonged period. I am not so sure it is ideal though ; certainly SA seem to prefer to let AB concentrate on batting. I guess it depends on the player , and the situation...I am happy enough for Bairstow to bat higher in India at present if they have to squeeze in that extra bowler ; but I don't like it as a long term deal.

Which is , I think , where we fundamentally disagree. You see Bairstow at 7 as a luxury which current
England , unlike turn of the century Australia , cannot afford. I see him as an Insurance Policy - which current England sorely need . At least until the top four can be properly fixed and firing.
I am not suggesting England go with four bowlers ; and they don't have to - Stokes looks pretty sound at six , would you not agree ?
If and when England produce a fully functioning top four , I might be open to letting YJB bat five and relinquish the gloves to , say , Foakes (I am sure the Surrey Mafia would not object either ) ; but I do not think now is the time to be making that move.

There is also the question of the effect on Bairstow : he seems pretty keen to do the job behind the stumps , and is clearly improving - though he can improve further ; and returning him to a role as batsman only might adversely affect his mindset and game. Given he has probably been England's best all round player this year that is not something I'd want to risk !

Anyway I guess this is one of those issues on which people will always have differing views. I am sure you and I will discuss it further through the coming months....

No worries Alfie ...

Couple more points though : England just got royally bumhumped by a team with their keeper opening. But yes in an ideal world your keeper would concetrate on keeping and bat down the order, runs being a bonus.
As you say where we differ is I see it as more importnat to try and fix the top 4 /5 than to have an insurance policy and plan (assume) things are going to go tits up. Otherwise you may as well go down the road of opening with Batty and Anderson and having Root and Cook at 10/11 incase they dont come off.
The way I see it Bairstow is one of our top 4 bats (or indeed 3, certainly now Hameeds is bunked) and has the potential to be even better if he concentrated on that. Had England got 5 genuinely good test batsmen (as we thought/hoped) then Id be all for Bairstow as an extra at 6/7 with the all rounders to come after. On paper thats an incredibly strong batting line up, unfortunately theres been a consitent failure to fill those 5/6 batting slots above him.
Relying n the patch/insurance policy of Bairstow Woakes hasnt been working, fixing the top batting spots has to be prioirty. I have little fairth that theres 2-3 high quality test batsmen ready to jump straight in knocking about the county scene who have so far been ignored, I have some faith that the many guys the selectors tried ahead of them were better or equal to anything else thats available. Dragging up the 8th choice mid order bat to cover 4 isnt IMO going to add much that hasnt been tried already, moving a proven test quality batsman up and freeing him from the burden of keeping could. Even in the short term (this series) moving him to 5/6 is viable without placing too much of an additional burden on him. Someones gonna have to play in that top 5, and in this current squad we are lacking players who are doing it there.
Its really the complete opposite of how you see it, Id have Foakes in (this summer) exactly because we dont have a functioning top 4 and we should be looking to use one of the best 4 batsmen available there rather than ones who have already been deemed not good enough to get selected ahead of ones who werent good enough.

As you say this will blow up again in the summer, and if we can find 4 - 5 batsmen who actually deserve a place in the top 5 then it kinda goes away (although Id still have him above Stokes but meh)

The other option is to go full on Australia and just sack everyone.

by Gooseberry Wed 30 Nov 2016, 8:50 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Seems an announcement on "replacements" is to be made at 9am.

Woakes has a chipped bone in his hand, and Ansari has a back injury

At least they have an excuse for the rest of the tour being a disaster now.

Calling up Jennings seems a must, although it may be a bit late for the next test.
With two all rounders out the case for 5 bowlers gets stronger. All in its going to be a very difficult selection though.

by KP_fan Wed 30 Nov 2016, 9:07 am

msp83 wrote:The bowling unit worked very much as a unit with all 5 bowlers chipping in with significant contributions. Kohli, Pujara and Ashwin got terrific support from Patel, Jadeja and Jayant Yadav as far as the batting department is concerned. Parthiv Patel absolutely taking his chance with the bat with a very fine innings that too batting out of position. Parthiv we knew is a better bat than Saha. We also knew he's an inferior keeper. But Does Parthiv's abilities with the bat and Saha's not entirely safe disposition behind the stumps with his ongoing batting struggles mean Parthiv keep his place for the next game? Will Saha be fit for the next game? Same with Rahul too.
There are some concerns as well. The catching standards have been poor. Murali Vijay is becoming a major concern. So long as the team is winning it can be swept aside, but he has been the one stable half of India's opening partnership after the disintegration of the Sehwag-Gambhir partnership, the most prolific opening combination in India's test history. Vijay had injury issues from the Sri Lanka tour onwards last year, but made significant contributions in the 1 test he played there, was important through the South Africa series. Then he got undone by a short ball from Shannon Gabriel in the West Indies, got injured, was dropped, and on return, just hasn't looked the same player. He didn't have trouble with the short ball in South Africa, England or Australia. But now he's failing to get out of the way of those short balls, and even when he plays an innings of substance like the hundred in the series opener, the fluency hasn't quite been there. Parthiv Patel or someone else might be able to do a job for now, and KL Rahul is set to return for the next game. But Rahul himself is finding his way around test cricket and is very hit or miss at this stage of his career. India need Vijay to find his touch very soon.
Rahane also, his problems are discussed already. He would have been relieved that he didn't have to come in to finish the chase today!

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2016-17/engine/match/1034809.html

--here is scorecard of T1 of this series as a reminder that Murali Vijay made 126 and 31 in the 2 innings there and made 20 in the first inning of T2

and has failed 3 innings in a row.....

so it's not like he has been out of form for a long long time

I have a feeling its just focus.....after a good innings or two...he relaxes mentally...it's not form or skill

--He has to be talked to and asked to focus especially on not committing himself to the front foot too much..because then he is in a tangle, when the short one is delivered..
and so should be Rahul....asked to focus and leave, leave , leave a lot outside the off stump...no need to feel pressured to score runs too quickly, which he was trying to show when competing with Dhawan for a place....the objective given to him should be bat through one sessions before opening up with your strokes....

--although Kohli in the press conference said something that indicated Karun Nair would play next game again...
that means Rahul won't be available for Mumbai.....
that means they will have to play Parthiv as opener cum WK

--On short pitch handling it's not just Vijay...but Chris Woakes and Adil Rashid that were exposed too...
Woakes rather brutally hit by bounce close to 90mph pace...stuff from helmet flying off...and out next ball to a bouncer, fending awkwardly for his life...those two deliveries brought out the little traces tailender in him
Just like after being hit by a bouncer (from Aaron I think)and his face blackened...Broad has not been the same batsman.....he backs off from the line of fast and short deliveries

and Rashid two innings in a row...have shown he has neither reflexes to get out of the line nor technique to hook a sharp bouncer at high speed
and I have a feeling Moeen has the same problem too.

Speed is a big differentiation....an extra yard or two of pace and the ability to bend back and dig it in can make a lot of difference....though a lot of modern day experts / coaches underplay ....but pace in the region of and upwards of 90mph makes everyone uncomfortable and exposes the chinks that are not visible at even 85mph.

Eng surprisingly have not bent their back and used the short pitch much at all

by jimbohammers Wed 30 Nov 2016, 9:49 am

Jennings and Dawson called up.

I know i am biased but i think Dawson could add something to this side. He has control with his bowling, can graft with the bat and he's a top fielder.

by CaledonianCraig Wed 30 Nov 2016, 9:56 am

KP_fan wrote:
msp83 wrote:The bowling unit worked very much as a unit with all 5 bowlers chipping in with significant contributions. Kohli, Pujara and Ashwin got terrific support from Patel, Jadeja and Jayant Yadav as far as the batting department is concerned. Parthiv Patel absolutely taking his chance with the bat with a very fine innings that too batting out of position. Parthiv we knew is a better bat than Saha. We also knew he's an inferior keeper. But Does Parthiv's abilities with the bat and Saha's not entirely safe disposition behind the stumps with his ongoing batting struggles mean Parthiv keep his place for the next game? Will Saha be fit for the next game? Same with Rahul too.
There are some concerns as well. The catching standards have been poor. Murali Vijay is becoming a major concern. So long as the team is winning it can be swept aside, but he has been the one stable half of India's opening partnership after the disintegration of the Sehwag-Gambhir partnership, the most prolific opening combination in India's test history. Vijay had injury issues from the Sri Lanka tour onwards last year, but made significant contributions in the 1 test he played there, was important through the South Africa series. Then he got undone by a short ball from Shannon Gabriel in the West Indies, got injured, was dropped, and on return, just hasn't looked the same player. He didn't have trouble with the short ball in South Africa, England or Australia. But now he's failing to get out of the way of those short balls, and even when he plays an innings of substance like the hundred in the series opener, the fluency hasn't quite been there. Parthiv Patel or someone else might be able to do a job for now, and KL Rahul is set to return for the next game. But Rahul himself is finding his way around test cricket and is very hit or miss at this stage of his career. India need Vijay to find his touch very soon.
Rahane also, his problems are discussed already. He would have been relieved that he didn't have to come in to finish the chase today!
http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2016-17/engine/match/1034809.html

--here is scorecard of T1 of this series as a reminder that Murali Vijay made 126 and 31 in the 2 innings there and made 20 in the first inning of T2

and has failed 3 innings in a row.....

so it's not like he has been out of form for a long long time

I have a feeling its just focus.....after a good innings or two...he relaxes mentally...it's not form or skill

--He has to be talked to and asked to focus especially on not committing himself to the front foot too much..because then he is in a tangle, when the short one is delivered..
and so should be Rahul....asked to focus and leave, leave , leave a lot outside the off stump...no need to feel pressured to score runs too quickly, which he was trying to show when competing with Dhawan for a place....the objective given to him should be bat through one sessions before opening up with your strokes....

--although Kohli in the press conference said something that indicated Karun Nair would play next game again...
that means Rahul won't be available for Mumbai.....
that means they will have to play Parthiv as opener cum WK

--On short pitch handling it's not just Vijay...but Chris Woakes and Adil Rashid that were exposed too...
Woakes rather brutally hit by bounce close to 90mph pace...stuff from helmet flying off...and out next ball to a bouncer, fending awkwardly for his life...those two deliveries brought out the little traces tailender in him
Just like after being hit by a bouncer (from Aaron I think)and his face blackened...Broad has not been the same batsman.....he backs off from the line of fast and short deliveries

and Rashid two innings in a row...have shown he has neither reflexes to get out of the line nor technique to hook a sharp bouncer at high speed
and I have a feeling Moeen has the same problem too.

Speed is a big differentiation....an extra yard or two of pace and the ability to bend back and dig it in can make a lot of difference....though a lot of modern day experts / coaches underplay ....but pace in the region of and upwards of 90mph makes everyone uncomfortable and exposes the chinks that are not visible at even 85mph.

Eng surprisingly have not bent their back and used the short pitch much at all

Good post.

I get the impression that the squad have come into this series with it fixed in their mind what the wickets are/were going to be like on the assumption of recent tours of India. They automatically took it as set in stone that the pitches would be lifeless and of no real help to seamers before turning into raging turners after two or three days. They have selected teams with that pre-misconception in mind and bowled with that misconception in mind. In other words they have not even recognized what is needed on these pitches so far as they have not been like what they were expecting and have not adjusted accordingly whereas India have been pretty much spot on.

by sirfredperry Wed 30 Nov 2016, 9:56 am

OK, sometimes you have to send for extra players if there are numerous injuries to your tourists. But today's call ups suggest that those still out there should not have been chosen in the first place.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Wed 30 Nov 2016, 9:58 am

Tad surprised they didn't replace Zaf with a batsman rather than another all rounder - I can't really see Dawson playing? (Which is why I imagine leach wasn't called up so he can stay with the lions and play)

Jennings was fairly obvious

by alfie Wed 30 Nov 2016, 10:21 am

guildfordbat wrote:Cheers, Olly.

That's news to me about Woakes - did that happen yesterday? Didn't see much of the play then.

Ansari had back problems off and on last season and know things flared up again during the second Test.

The announcement should be interesting. I'm betting Alfie's pension pot on Keaton Jennings!

You win !

So he will open and if Duckett is to get back in it will be at four again... Jennings certainly had form this season so I can't complain about this selection. If he does well this could lead to good things for the top four in the summer. Only thing wrong is he's another left hander.

I don't share the Goose's pessimism re finding some proper batsmen. We've seen in the past that you cannot really know who has it for Tests and who hasn't until they try them...sometimes the "obvious" ones - like Hick and Ramps - never quite live up to what is expected ; while apparently more "hopeful" choices like Vaughan turn out to be gems...
In fairness to the selectors , it is just not possible to be certain in advance. And once a player is chosen he has to have a decent try unless he is obviously out of his depth. Unfortunately in recent times several players have flattered to deceive : Robson , Ballance - even Lyth - scored hundreds early in their careers , before falling victim to their weaknesses. And since you cannot try them all at once we are still waiting for the Right One.
Doesn't mean they should stop searching : the injury to Hameed is a great pity ; but the silver lining may be a chance to look at Jennings.
I don't want to put pressure on him , mind . But I rather doubt he reads this forum Smile

by KP_fan Wed 30 Nov 2016, 12:09 pm

so ansari has been replaced by Dawson an allrounder?
Is he a seam bowling allrounder?...How fast can he bowl?

and Jennings replaces Hameed as opener

and the issue of "having Ballance and Duckett in the squad but not willng to play them at all...so why keep them".... has been evaded.

CI reports Woakes has cracked his thumb apparently from the second bouncer that got him out...I hope he recovers enough to bat and ball...I know from experience bowling with a cracked thumb is possible but catching and batting ain't easy.....especially if the ball hits / jarrs that finger / thumb.

Eng need Woakes' 30s and 40s as much as they need the bowling

by VTR Wed 30 Nov 2016, 1:23 pm

Dawson is a bits and pieces non-spinning left-arm spinner. As such, is a like for like replacement for Ansari, i.e. a very, very poor man's Jadeja

by KP_fan Wed 30 Nov 2016, 2:32 pm

VTR wrote:Dawson is a bits and pieces non-spinning left-arm spinner. As such, is a like for like replacement for Ansari, i.e. a very, very poor man's Jadeja

you don't like him much Very Happy

So the list of players who Eng would not like to select from the squad in the playing 11 includes:

1)Ducket 2) Ballance 3) Ansari/ Dawson 4) Batty 5) Finn

wow Shocked

by CaledonianCraig Wed 30 Nov 2016, 2:44 pm

KP_fan wrote:
VTR wrote:Dawson is a bits and pieces non-spinning left-arm spinner. As such, is a like for like replacement for Ansari, i.e. a very, very poor man's Jadeja

you don't like him much

So the list of players who Eng would not like to select from the squad in the playing 11 includes:

1)Ducket 2) Ballance 3) Ansari/ Dawson 4) Batty 5) Finn

wow

Well if I may this is perhaps why those in your list are not shoo ins for a match right now:-

1. Duckett has not shone in his outings on the tour so far.

2. Ballance was probably one of the last on the list for the tour due to recent bad form and it has continued this winter.

3. Ansari has a back injury but Dawson may play if England decide they want a third spinner.

4. Batty has been given a couple of chances this winter and hasn't really done much.

5. Finn is one pace bowler too far it would seem as far as the selectors are concerned and may NOT replace Woakes as he isn't as handy with the bat as Woakes.

England are at the point of no return in the series so they can't afford anymore mess ups in selection and those five names for one reason or another are too big a risk to take in a must win test. By bringing in Jennings the hope is he'll shine like Hameed did whereas Duckett and Ballance have shown already they are unlikely to be the answer just now.

by king_carlos Wed 30 Nov 2016, 3:23 pm

1.Cook
2.Jennings
3.Root
4.Moeen
5.Bairstow (wk)
6.Stokes
7.Buttler
8.Woakes
9.Rashid
10.Broad/Ball
11.Anderson

Reckon we are looking at that for the 4th test. With 2 all rounders and a keeper still batting above a 'specialist batsmen' it looks extremely messy.

by VTR Wed 30 Nov 2016, 3:27 pm

KP_fan wrote:
VTR wrote:Dawson is a bits and pieces non-spinning left-arm spinner. As such, is a like for like replacement for Ansari, i.e. a very, very poor man's Jadeja

you don't like him much

So the list of players who Eng would not like to select from the squad in the playing 11 includes:

1)Ducket 2) Ballance 3) Ansari/ Dawson 4) Batty 5) Finn

wow

He is probably ok in ODIs but in Tests, I can't see it - he averaged about 45 with the ball in FC cricket last season - not exactly the stuff of nightmares for the Indian line up. Definitely bits and pieces rather than genuine all rounder, would be surprised if he played and if we saw Batty again. Jake Ball is an option that could come into the pace attack. I think the next Test line up will be:

1) Cook 2) Jennings 3) Root 4) Ali 5) Bairstow 6) Stokes 7) Buttler 8) Woakes 9) Rashid 10) Broad 11) Anderson

Ball comes in if one of the seamers is injured

EDIT: carlos posted the same team as I was typing, great minds and all that!

by king_carlos Wed 30 Nov 2016, 5:05 pm

With the number of inexperienced players who have played or been involved in the squads on these tours I do have to question why Jack Leach wasn't touring.

He turns the ball more than all the spinners involved but Dilly. Plus he offers the left arm angle, has a good economy rate and offers control. All made more impressive by bowling on the Taunton roads with tiny boundaries.

Judging by Dawson and Ansari being on tour I can only guess the selectors wanted to shorten the tail and get more players involved in both one day and test squads.

Very much feels a case of selectors needing to pick their best bowlers first.

by msp83 Wed 30 Nov 2016, 5:12 pm

Has this Dawson guy started bowling regularly in the last couple of seasons or what? Otherwise, a fairly pedestrian selection by the look of things. Another county type player who should be left alone there screams his overall record!!

by msp83 Wed 30 Nov 2016, 5:14 pm

Wasn't Graeme Swann talking about a proper spinner who should have been given a go? Can't remember his name now, why is he not picked? Strange! Another bits and pieces spinner.......

by msp83 Wed 30 Nov 2016, 5:16 pm

Yeah, Jack Leach....... Has a much better record, looks like a regular, proper spin option. If they are playing a 3rd spinner, it should be someone like him.......

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Wed 30 Nov 2016, 5:36 pm

king_carlos wrote:With the number of inexperienced players who have played or been involved in the squads on these tours I do have to question why Jack Leach wasn't touring.

He turns the ball more than all the spinners involved but Dilly. Plus he offers the left arm angle, has a good economy rate and offers control. All made more impressive by bowling on the Taunton roads with tiny boundaries.

Judging by Dawson and Ansari being on tour I can only guess the selectors wanted to shorten the tail and get more players involved in both one day and test squads.

Very much feels a case of selectors needing to pick their best bowlers first.

Taunton most definitely was not a road this season (the only one Leach has done anything in) - The English Dhaka I believe it was dubbed (Batty took 10 wickets there didn't he?).

I can definitely see why they didn't pick him this winter - give him a go with the lions to prove the season wasn't a fluke (remember Simon Kerrigan anyone)

by LivinginItaly Wed 30 Nov 2016, 5:37 pm

Hopefully Jennings can take advantage of these two tests and make a case for a permanent place. Most of us on here might, through an unfortunate injury to hameed, get our wish of Root batting at 4 by the start of the summer.

by wisden Wed 30 Nov 2016, 6:07 pm

Hmmm but will Bayliss and CO, want a top three of Cook,Hameed,Jennings?

Im happy with that but not sure they will go that way

by JDizzle Wed 30 Nov 2016, 6:28 pm

msp83 wrote:Yeah, Jack Leach....... Has a much better record, looks like a regular, proper spin option. If they are playing a 3rd spinner, it should be someone like him.......

Whilst some of the less experienced (at Test level anyway) Somerset guys have been championing him - both Trescothick and Chris Rogers who played with him this year and have been there and done that, cast doubts on how ready he was for Test cricket.

by Gooseberry Wed 30 Nov 2016, 9:03 pm

Slate dawson all you like but they won the series with Fatel playing some tests last time

by king_carlos Thu 01 Dec 2016, 4:15 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
king_carlos wrote:With the number of inexperienced players who have played or been involved in the squads on these tours I do have to question why Jack Leach wasn't touring.

He turns the ball more than all the spinners involved but Dilly. Plus he offers the left arm angle, has a good economy rate and offers control. All made more impressive by bowling on the Taunton roads with tiny boundaries.

Judging by Dawson and Ansari being on tour I can only guess the selectors wanted to shorten the tail and get more players involved in both one day and test squads.

Very much feels a case of selectors needing to pick their best bowlers first.

Taunton most definitely was not a road this season (the only one Leach has done anything in) - The English Dhaka I believe it was dubbed (Batty took 10 wickets there didn't he?).

I can definitely see why they didn't pick him this winter - give him a go with the lions to prove the season wasn't a fluke (remember Simon Kerrigan anyone)

Not to the same extent as in the past but 5 out of 8 county championship games at Taunton still had first innings scores over 350. 2 of those first innings totals were over 500 and another 490 odd so the old Taunton roads were far from gone.

The Durham and Warks games were the two which gave it that moniker of the English Dhaka. In both all 4 innings were short and the ball turned from the start. Leach (as well as pretty much all spinners on show) tore through innings in both games taking 17 wickets between the 2 matches.

Given he took 65 CC wickets over the course of the summer, taking wickets throughout the season from May to September I think it's fair to say he proved himself adaptable and talented though.

He's certainly a better spinner than Ansari or Dawson are. He also obviously has a lot more potential than Batty possibly has at 39.

by KP_fan Thu 01 Dec 2016, 9:11 am

I heard Mark Butcher explain in a podcast that this guy Jack Leach as off field behavior problem because of which they cannot trust bringing him on a tour and that too in a culturally so prominently different sub-continent

Yeah makes sense after all Monty lost his international and FC career also because of off field behavior...Monty's story is tragicomic Rolling Eyes

by Gooseberry Thu 01 Dec 2016, 9:59 am

That puts a different spin on the Jack Leach selection KPF. Hes hardly a world beater though, and it wasnt massively controversial that he didnt come from a playing perpective anyway.

The other "ignored" player would be Borthwick, not as a spinner (but test average *cough*) but as a top order bat. The guy is class, but unlike Leach didnt even get a look in with the Lions. Instead youve got Tom Westley, the classic county bits and pieces non batsman non spinner.

Just to really slate the Lions squad theres 3 keepers in there, which seems a bit much when we already have 2 who make a fair case for selection in all formats. All in its not just the touring side that lacks proper batsmen ... the Lions is pretty bereft in that department too aside from a handfull of raw youngsters. It really does suggest that the selectors are running out of ideas of where to go. Id also say this adds weight to the theory that Bairstow could be asked to relinquish the gloves and concentrate on his batting in the long term.

Hildreth is a name being bandied about, but he would be a real stop gap to bolster the mid order in the short term. Hes obviously a good conty pro ...but at 32 it would be another Batty selection and I just dont see it being on the cards no matter how short on options England are getting.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 01 Dec 2016, 12:56 pm

I too am confused at how Borthwick has been ignored

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Thu 01 Dec 2016, 1:32 pm

In other news the lions won their first match today - a one dayer against UAE.

Stuart Meaker took 4 wickets and Jennings scored 101* the standout performers

by Gooseberry Thu 01 Dec 2016, 1:40 pm

Well thats great news on Jennings, hope hes on the plane over to India now!

Rewinding to earlier discussion ... I have been reading that Bayliss hasnt watched any County Games since he took charge and has been entirely reliant on the rest of the selectors to put forward names to make up the squads from which they then pick the playing sides based on what they show at camps, training and in England games.
That perhaps better explains how you can end up with several players that the head coach and captain have no faith in.
And aso reiterates the low regard that the county game is held in by the international staff.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 01 Dec 2016, 2:44 pm

How can the coach not watch the premier domestic competition?!

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Thu 01 Dec 2016, 2:58 pm

Because he's the coach. His job is to coach the players selected.

It's the selectors job to watch the county games and select the players

by ChequeredJersey Thu 01 Dec 2016, 3:00 pm

But you lose vital information on how the players you are coaching play!

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Thu 01 Dec 2016, 3:10 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:But you lose vital information on how the players you are coaching play!

Well as said above, he'll get notes, and obviously they do a lot of training too.

Considering how much cricket England actually play during the summer, it'd be pretty much impossible for him to take in anything worthwhile anyways. Would imagine his wife wants to see him sometimes at least! Smile

by king_carlos Thu 01 Dec 2016, 3:22 pm

KP_fan - I hadn't heard that about Leach with off field issues. As always stuff like that needs to be taken with a pinch of salt because it tends to get very exaggerated down the grapevine. May well be some truth in it though.

Gooseberry - At 32 Hildreth still has a few good years in him, especially with the form he's still showing. Just look at how much Chris Rogers added to Australia for a couple of years. Hildreth may not be in Rogers class but with 39 first class centuries and an average of 44 he is a hell of a lot better batsmen than Buttler, Moeen and Stokes in that current middle order.

As for Scott Borthwick. The guy has finally taken the advice that many have been giving for years and moved county to a ground he will bowl at. I expect the selectors wanted him to get a winter to settle and get a rhythm back in his bowling. It is odd that he's been left out of the Lions squad though.

by VTR Thu 01 Dec 2016, 3:55 pm

Can't agree that Hildreth is a hell of a lot better than Stokes, Ali and Buttler - truth is we don't know and clearly the selectors are not seeing an international player in him as he has been around for years and never got that close to a call up

Stokes is definitely an international quality player with bat and ball and is developing into a consistent player. Doesn't really matter that he doesn't have a nice average built on thrashing medium pacers around on flat decks at Taunton

by king_carlos Fri 02 Dec 2016, 3:39 am

Absolutely agree Stokes is international class with bat and ball VTR. He is an excellent 1st change seamer and very good with the old ball. He's also a cracking and dangerous bat to have coming in at 6. I wouldn't want him above 6 in tests though. As dangerous as he is when on song, building an innings in trying conditions isn't his forte.

For the bulk of Hildreth's career he has had very good middle order batsmen in his way. Trott, Pietersen and Bell was a very settled and successful middle order for a long time. Although there were definitely bumps along the way and at the end! Collingwood was also a rock for a long time.

As those guys have phased out we have had many coming in and out for various reasons. Morgan, Taylor, Ballance, Vince and now Duckett. Through those only Root has stuck whilst coming in around the same time. Buttler is now being tried as a batsmen of course, and Moeen is bouncing around the order.

I have understood Hildreth not getting a chance when there were talented younger batsmen deserving of a chance with their CC records. Now that those guys have largely fallen by the wayside for the time being I think the selectors could do worse than select Hildreth when he's had such a consistently good record for a long time.

by king_carlos Fri 02 Dec 2016, 3:50 am

Whichever way the selector go with choices in the middle order, I hope the side moves to better structured XI over next summer.

Bairstow needs to be given a clear role to concentrate on between staying at 7 and keeping or concentrating on batting and moving up the order.

Moeen also needs to be given a clear role with a choice made about where he will bat. If the selectors want him to be a top 5 batsman then the bloke needs to be given a batting position and allowed a chance to settle there. If he is in the top order then I'd like Dilly to stay in the side to take pressure of Moeen's bowling though. If Moeen isn't deemed a strong enough batsman to stay in the top 5 then he will need to compete with Rashid as sole spinner on most decks in England.

I.e. pick a structure between:

1.Cook 2.Hameed 3.Root 4.Batsman 5.Moeen 6.Stokes 7.Bairstow (wk) 8.Woakes 9.Rashid 10.Broad 11.Anderson

Or

1.Cook 2.Hameed 3.Root 4.Batsman 5.Bairstow 6.Stokes 7.Foakes (wk) 8.Moeen/Rashid 9.Woakes 10.Broad 11.Anderson

At the moment the XI is messy and certain players are taking on far more of the workload than they should be. Giving Bairstow and Moeen a role to nail down will be best for both and the side in the long run. As will moving back to a top 5 made up of batsmen, Stokes at 6, keeper at 7 and our best 4 bowlers as the match demands.

That structure still allows 5 bowling option with a choice between 4 seamers and spinner or 3 seamers and 2 spinner. That's the balance that Stokes at 6 allows.

Obviously another option for the top 5 will hopefully present itself in these 2 tests with Keaton Jennings making runs. Then the potential to have Cook/Hameed/Jennings as a top 3 with Root moving back to 4 is available.

by KP_fan Fri 02 Dec 2016, 8:50 am

Last night I saw the highlights of Duleep Trophy finals that happened a couple of months back just before the NZ series...and what stood out was the high quality of spin bowling in a premier FC tournament final...

Mishra and Kuldeep Yadav the Chinaman bowler on one side
were the main spinners
Jadeja and Karn sharma on the other

all these 4 are very high quality international spinners in the final of FC match...
3 of them are a cut below jadeja and ashwin but not in skill only in control....which they can gain with exposure.
Shreyas Gopal not playing that game is another one in this category of international quality spinners hat our FC system posseses..

supporting spinners in the game were Parvez Rasool, Gurkeerat singh, Yuvraj.....all of whom are +/- the quality Eng has as their main spinners currently

there is just a big difference in the standard of top spinners in India FC vs English counties and its showing in this series.

CI wrote that youngsters sent into international cricket are recommended by Andy Flower ( coach of A side) to the selectors....

In principal Dravid is doing exactly the same in India-A setup..

in practice Flower seems to recommend spinners for international selection for their batting/ fielding capabilities as was explained in case of Dawson...can bat, can bowl tight overs, good fielder, level head and discipline......attritional and not aggressive qualities

even in his days as main coach Flower wasn't a big fan of Monty for the lack of aforesaid qualities...

by VTR Fri 02 Dec 2016, 8:52 am

Probably going to have to agree to disagree on Hildreth - opinions and all that. I don't feel he's ever really got that close to selection regardless of who was or wasn't in his way, sadly for him the selectors just aren't seeing what they want in him. Reminds me of David Sales in a lot of ways

Do agree with your second post though - time for the selectors to decide where Bairstow and Ali fits in. Bairstow has a fair claim to be the best Test batsman in the world at the moment, so is a valuable asset and needs to be given a role that gets the most out of him. Ali is a really valuable player and I think taking away his lower order runs for inconsistent higher order returns hasn't helped the team

by Gooseberry Fri 02 Dec 2016, 9:50 am

Ballance has a first class average noticebaly higher than Hildreths, its really not that great a guide is it. Ill say it again, at best he would be a temporary stop gap and do little to address the long term concerns of the team. As was Chris Rogers for Aus. Hes clealry a good county player, but as said above plundering runs on a road against teenage club cricketers and 40 year old former test players isnt the same as coming to India and batting against the world best spinner. Saying he has a better county average than Moeen and Stokes if anything just proves the point about how poor a guide county cricket is, several of the England team have higher test avergaes than they do first class ones. And if Hildreth were able to operate as a front 5 bowler then he might be able o compete with them for spots. Buttler though ... yes I can see a real argument for that spot, but Bayliss seems to have real faith in Buttlers ability to transition to test bat. It may be misguided but its a thing hes talked about since he took the job.

Just as a thing Root has been Cooks most succesful partner (judging by average runs scored for their own wicket) by some distance ... averaging 41 and loose change (Strauss averaged less over his career). He is presumably going to get bumped back down (and people are pressing for him at 4) but that is certainly a THING. Obviously his runs down the order have been far bigger, but he is the nearest thing to a succesful test opener we actually have... and all his games were against good sides. I just find it quite depressing that he will get "sacked" twice from a job hes done better than anyone else has managed.

There does seem to be a lot of expectation on Jennings but lets wait and see. If he does pan out ( I mean he got a century against the UAE he must be genius right?) then suddenly England have depth at the top and we can start moaning aboing about them being slow scoring. Harking back to County stats his first class record is overall pretty appalling, but he seems to but on a purple patch of form right now broken out of nowhere this season. hes obviously a player on an upward trajectory ( or a one season wonder ).
Hildreth conversly is just ploddinga long doing what he does, and you wonder how much more a guy that age has to give in improvements.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Fri 02 Dec 2016, 1:21 pm

VTR wrote:Probably going to have to agree to disagree on Hildreth - opinions and all that. I don't feel he's ever really got that close to selection regardless of who was or wasn't in his way, sadly for him the selectors just aren't seeing what they want in him. Reminds me of David Sales in a lot of ways

Do agree with your second post though - time for the selectors to decide where Bairstow and Ali fits in. Bairstow has a fair claim to be the best Test batsman in the world at the moment, so is a valuable asset and needs to be given a role that gets the most out of him. Ali is a really valuable player and I think taking away his lower order runs for inconsistent higher order returns hasn't helped the team

Yep I think Moeen at 8 long term makes sense - but he would be under pressure from Rashid who is proving himself to be a much better bowler than this time last year, for that 8 spot (and spinner role).

I think Bairstow at 5 and bringing a keeper in actually weakens our batting. Keep him at 7, bring in a batsman. (Bairstow has also developed into a very good WK, and is only getting better)

by VTR Fri 02 Dec 2016, 2:35 pm

Bairstow at 7 would be a hell of a strength. Does mean that we need to find two new top 5 batsmen, and that's all assuming that Hameed is actually the best thing since sliced bread. A Stokes/Bairstow/Ali/Woakes combination would be massively strong, as long as they aren't coming in at 80-4 every single time!

by Gooseberry Fri 02 Dec 2016, 3:30 pm

Right now Id have Rashid over Ali for a home series if there were only room for one in the side.

To be fair on him in this series hes part of a 3 man spin attack and not the prime bowler, his selection is as a batsman. He was scoring a lot of runs through start of the year whilst his bowling has dipped and stayed down. Previously he was picked as a batsman and took a lot of wickets but didnt socre enough runs so got bumped to 8.

Now hes not taking wickets or scoring runs its a problem to know where top pick him when theres a player who is taking them. For this series his ocntinued selection is garaunteed given the paucity of options in both batting and spin bowling. For the summer he could lose out. After 3 centuries and 3 halfs and 3 n/o's in 15 innings he looked to have turned a corner and become a viable top 5 test batsman; thats looking increasingly dodgy now.

Ithink if Ali was ever going to devleop into a real test class spinner then he wouldve done so by now. Its 35 tests in and still his average is knocking around the 40 mark after a pretty poor 18 months. Rashids career figures are hardly breathtaking either, but marginaly better in both average and strike rate (before someone pops up with that word remarkable again)....and unlike Ali hes improving rather than fading. Since his retun to the side hes taken 25 wickets @29

I do feel for Ali but hes struggled to establish a real role in the side whilst being mucked about with. Hes not a good enough batsman to be a luxury 2nd spinner, and not a good enough spinner to be relied upon as a first and only choice. England are lucky that when stokes and woakes are both fit they have "all rounder" covered.

Theres stil two tests left of course but the way the wind is blowing at the moment Im not sure if Ali has a long term future at all with the test side.
I cant see him being moved out of his current spot for this series, but come summer it will likley be a different story

by alfie Sat 03 Dec 2016, 10:12 am

Provocative from Gooseberry...

Is Moeen under such a threat ? Well yes and no. Rashid has indeed done well on this tour of the subcontinent. And he isn't a total rabbit with the bat ; so a challenge at eight is on the cards. But on the other hand , Moeen has been jerked around up and down the order to fill holes ...I would imagine , just in fairness , he'd be given some chance back at his old spot at eight to start the summer .

Whatever is done with Bairstow and the gloves , it seems certain they will line up in the home season with a top seven of five bats , 1 keeper and Stokes ; so the last four spots will go to the spinner plus three of Anderson Broad Woakes and Wood.

So : a couple of questions . 1 /. Who is more likely to make a hundred at eight ? Moeen or Rashid ?
2/ If the pace men are the main attacking weapons - as they have been at home for the last fifty years (acknowledging some fine contributions from Underwood , Emburey/Edmonds , Tufnell , Swann and Panesar , at times) : but for the most part ; then who is more likely to hold up an end for the overs required to spell the quicks ? (This one is perhaps harder to answer )

I don't think this choice is written in stone by any means ; but I think Moeen (also the better fieldsman , by the way) is still in front despite the welcome development by Rashid.

Actually will be good to have competition for the spot. And an option in the remote possibility that England might find occasion to pick two spinners in a home Test ...

by Hammersmith harrier Sat 03 Dec 2016, 10:17 am

I'm not too concerned by the spinners ability to bat or hold up an end, Rashid is the most likely to take wickets and that's all that really matters.

by alfie Sat 03 Dec 2016, 10:50 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm not too concerned by the spinners ability to bat or hold up an end, Rashid is the most likely to take wickets and that's all that really matters.

Is it , though , Hammers ?

Rashid has picked up wickets on this tour (and good for him) but he hasn't taken them early enough , or cheaply enough , to bowl England to a win . And will he find conditions as helpful to his style of bowling a home ?
I really don't want to be too critical of him , as he has clearly improved ; but I am still not sure he is going to be able to win Tests at home for England with the ball. Maybe Moeen won't either - at least not on his own - but that is where the rest of his allround game comes in.

If Rashid were a Warne : no problem . But he ain't . And unless he starts taking serious first innings wickets and/or bowling lots of maidens , he cannot be an automatic choice as the sole spinner.

He is in the mix , sure. But IMHO he has a bit more to do to overtake Moeen. Makes for an interesting match up early summer though...

by Jetty Mon 05 Dec 2016, 1:30 am

Later today the ODI and 20/20 squads are annnounced. Don't know why they don't wait until the Tests have finished. Wonder if anyone is rested or anyone from the Lions get a call ...like Tom Curran.

by Gooseberry Mon 05 Dec 2016, 3:12 pm

Stokes is a due a rest given how much is asked of him in tests. Woakes may need to manage the injuries. Ali has played pretty much everything since forever.

by KP_fan Mon 05 Dec 2016, 6:07 pm

the first report on pitch --> it appears like the Mohali pitch
Rahul is fit and will open and Parthiv will continue to be the WK
Saha should have recovered but it appears his injury has been extended as a matter of convenience by team management
http://indianexpress.com/article/sports/cricket/india-vs-england-wankhede-pitch-will-be-a-slow-turner-say-mca-groundsmen-4412052/
Contrary to popular perceptions that Wankhede Stadium pitch for the fourth Test will be a rank turner, one of the MCA groundstaff actively involved with the preparation of the 22-yard strip stated that it is expected to assist slow bowlers only from the third day.
“The wicket will be normal. It won’t turn on the first day and it can slowly start turning (assisting spin) from day three,” a source told PTI today.
England are down 0-2 in the five-game series after the draw in the series opener at Rajkot and losses in the next two games at Vishakapatnam and Mohali.
The visiting team must win the game here in order to have a chance to square the series at Chennai, slated to host the final match from December 16-20.
“No special preparations are being made. The World T20 and Ranji matches have happened here. We have to prepare well for an international match and we have done that,” he added.

by king_carlos Mon 05 Dec 2016, 7:44 pm

England ODI squad

Eoin Morgan (capt), Moeen Ali, Jonathan Bairstow, Jake Ball, Sam Billings, Jos Buttler, Liam Dawson, Alex Hales, Liam Plunkett, Adil Rashid, Joe Root, Jason Roy, Ben Stokes, David Willey, Chris Woakes

Morgan and Hales return after opting out of Bangladesh. Root returns after being rested for the Bangladesh ODIs. Duckett misses out as do Vince and Finn. Tough on Duckett after he looked good in the ODIs.

Bayliss has stated plainly that Billings and Bairstow are the 'spare batsmen' which makes the side easier to predict for the start of the series at least. He's also hinted that Moeen and Stokes are due a rest during the series which is good news.

1.Hales
2.Roy
3.Root
4.Morgan (c)
5.Stokes
6.Buttler (wk)
7.Moeen
8.Woakes
9.Rashid
10.Plunkett/Willey
11.Ball

I'd guess that Stokes and Moeen won't be rested in the same games. When Moeen is rested Dawson will come straight in like for like. When Stokes is rested, Moeen will push up the order with Dawson filling the gap he vacates lower down.

by Sponsored content