All Blacks to wear poppies v Italy

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11745945

Are we in danger of entering poppy overload? Has it not become a bit excessive and garish? I understand the significance and it is understandable that people want to respect war heroes and yes Dave Gallagher the first AB captain did die in world war one. However, do we really need to mix sport with politics?

It seems that every time I turn on the BBC rugby commentary someone is wearing a poppy. I mean there was a time that only vets wore them now all of a sudden everyone wants in on the act.

Thoughts?

It's not really a political move though, is it? I get that some Irish resent it though.

However, do we really need to mix sport with politics?

South Africa say no.

I don't think poppies are political.

I think some people have tried to make it political by objecting.

Respecting the sacrifice of brave soldiers is now excessive and garish?

Nothing wrong with showing respect to those who sacrificed so much for us all to have a better future.

Republic of Ireland was neutral during the 2nd world war and used the 1st world war as an opportunity to gain independence so I cannot say I have too much sympathy for your objection Gunsgerms.

Those who fought deserve respect. Those who stood on the sidelines? Not so much.

mikey_dragon wrote:It's not really a political move though, is it? I get that some Irish resent it though.

However, do we really need to mix sport with politics?

South Africa say no.

Its not that I resent it. I have worn a poppy before myself because my great grand uncle was blown up in the Somme when fighting for the South Staffordshire Regiment just like lots of Irish men at the time. I dont have an issue with it. I just think sport and politics shouldnt mix in general and I think the whole poppy wearing has reached overload at this stage.

His name was Stanislaus Bonaventure and he was a very proud Irishman.

rapidsnowman wrote:I don't think poppies are political.

I think some people have tried to make it political by objecting.

They pay tribute to war victims. Wars are political and dont have much to do with rugby.

Some wars are political.

Im not sure WW2 was.

beshocked wrote:Respecting the sacrifice of brave soldiers is now excessive and garish?

Nothing wrong with showing respect to those who sacrificed so much for us all to have a better future.

Republic of Ireland was neutral during the 2nd world war and used the 1st world war as an opportunity to gain independence so I cannot say I have too much sympathy for your objection Gunsgerms.

Those who fought deserve respect. Those who stood on the sidelines? Not so much.

Why do they deserve respect during a rugby match in Rome? What has that got to do with anything?

Embroidering a poppy onto jerseys is ridiculous IMO.

WW2 was about survival.

You could say it was politcal in that it was against facism - but I think that is pushing it a bit.

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:Respecting the sacrifice of brave soldiers is now excessive and garish?

Nothing wrong with showing respect to those who sacrificed so much for us all to have a better future.

Republic of Ireland was neutral during the 2nd world war and used the 1st world war as an opportunity to gain independence so I cannot say I have too much sympathy for your objection Gunsgerms.

Those who fought deserve respect. Those who stood on the sidelines? Not so much.

Why do they deserve respect during a rugby match in Rome? What has that got to do with anything?

Embroidering a poppy onto jerseys is ridiculous IMO.

They deserve respect all year every year. The Kiwi's haven't forgotten the ANZACs and the rest of the allies, but to show that they remember a poppy armband is worn. Italy were our enemies at that time of war so it goes to show what a respectful nation they are.

rapidsnowman wrote:WW2 was about survival.

You could say it was politcal in that it was against facism - but I think that is pushing it a bit.

Not as much as claiming it has anything to do with rugby though, right?

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:Respecting the sacrifice of brave soldiers is now excessive and garish?

Nothing wrong with showing respect to those who sacrificed so much for us all to have a better future.

Republic of Ireland was neutral during the 2nd world war and used the 1st world war as an opportunity to gain independence so I cannot say I have too much sympathy for your objection Gunsgerms.

Those who fought deserve respect. Those who stood on the sidelines? Not so much.

Why do they deserve respect during a rugby match in Rome? What has that got to do with anything?

Embroidering a poppy onto jerseys is ridiculous IMO.

13 All Blacks dying including the 1st AB captain is pretty relevant to rugby I would say.

Tell that to the families of those ABs who died....

beshocked wrote:13 All Blacks dying

and Ireland still only won by 11 points.

Cyril you shouldn't keep demeaning Ireland's victory. It was very impressive.

GunsGerms wrote:Not as much as claiming it has anything to do with rugby though, right?

But it isn't because it is rugby they are doing it.

But then there is no link with businesses, churches etc.
People in all walks of life wear them at this time to remember their lives are better because of the sacrifice of others.

beshocked wrote:

13 All Blacks dying including the 1st AB captain is pretty relevant to rugby I would say.

Tell that to the families of those ABs who died....

Not really. They didnt die playing rugby. The two events arent related at all really.

beshocked wrote:Cyril you shouldn't keep demeaning Ireland's victory. It was very impressive.

Indeed it was. Just because I'm not wearing a Guinness hat it doesn't mean I'm not impressed.

Re. the poppy thing. It's only really a problem if people get criticised for wearing them or not wearing them. That's when it becomes political.

Poppies are not political that is a simple fact although some people tend to judge others by their own standards and I know that here in Northern Ireland they've been politicized by those who simply go out of their way to do so.
The wearing of the poppy is to remember those who had their lives taken (nobody willingly gave their lives in any war) from them in all the wars to date including the ongoing conflicts. People from all backgrounds and beliefs were killed in world conflicts and it's a mark of respect to those people, not the politicians who sent them to their deaths.
It's also a personal thing and should always be so. Isn't that the kind of freedom we're told these people died for? I personally never wear one, that's my choice.

Cyril wrote:

beshocked wrote:Cyril you shouldn't keep demeaning Ireland's victory. It was very impressive.

Indeed it was. Just because I'm not wearing a Guinness hat it doesn't mean I'm not impressed.

Re. the poppy thing. It's only really a problem if people get criticised for wearing them or not wearing them. That's when it becomes political.

Not sure I'd describe it as a problem and I agree no one should be forced to wear one or not wear one. I just think these days it has become too much in general but mainly I'm not sure that rugby matches are the right stage for commemorating wars that happened a century ago. I dont see the relevance.

Pete330v2 wrote:Poppies are not political that is a simple fact although some people tend to judge others by their own standards and I know that here in Northern Ireland they've been politicized by those who simply go out of their way to do so.
The wearing of the poppy is to remember those who had their lives taken (nobody willingly gave their lives in any war) from them in all the wars to date including the ongoing conflicts. People from all backgrounds and beliefs were killed in world conflicts and it's a mark of respect to those people, not the politicians who sent them to their deaths.
It's also a personal thing and should always be so. Isn't that the kind of freedom we're told these people died for? I personally never wear one, that's my choice.

Thats fine Pete whether they are or not they dont have anything to do with rugby either. Thats my point.

rapidsnowman wrote:WW2 was about survival.

You could say it was politcal in that it was against facism - but I think that is pushing it a bit.

Nope WW2 was political, it was all based on trade agreements just like WW1

Fascism was fashionable in the 30s and seemingly again today so it wasn't against fascism

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:

13 All Blacks dying including the 1st AB captain is pretty relevant to rugby I would say.

Tell that to the families of those ABs who died....

Not really. They didnt die playing rugby. The two events arent related at all really.

Anthony Foley didn't die playing rugby either but still it was right to commemorate his death.

I feel like you are trying to trivialize the sacrifice made.

They were rugby players who fought because they had to.

It's something that you'd need to ask the Italian Rugby Union. If they are fine with it, then bash on!

In sport, if both teams agree to something, then there shouldn't be an issue. Like the soccerball where Scotland and England want to wear poppies! Let them! If someone in another country, or in Scotland and England themselves, find the poppy offensive, then don't go to the game or watch it on tele!

I can fully understand why it could upset someone in Italy so if the Italians objected then I'd say no to wearing them!

If an objection came in from, say the Irish union, I'd tell them to bolt as the game doesn't involve their nation!

beshocked wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:

13 All Blacks dying including the 1st AB captain is pretty relevant to rugby I would say.

Tell that to the families of those ABs who died....

Not really. They didnt die playing rugby. The two events arent related at all really.

Anthony Foley didn't die playing rugby either but still it was right to commemorate his death.

I feel like you are trying to trivialize the sacrifice made.

They were rugby players who fought because they had to.

He didnt die a hundred years ago and we wont be commemorating him every year. He also died while coaching an Irish rugby team so his death is actually very much linked to rugby.

Im not trying to trivialise anything. I commemorate my own family who died in WW1 but at appropriate occasions not rugby events.

GunsGerms wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Poppies are not political that is a simple fact although some people tend to judge others by their own standards and I know that here in Northern Ireland they've been politicized by those who simply go out of their way to do so.
The wearing of the poppy is to remember those who had their lives taken (nobody willingly gave their lives in any war) from them in all the wars to date including the ongoing conflicts. People from all backgrounds and beliefs were killed in world conflicts and it's a mark of respect to those people, not the politicians who sent them to their deaths.
It's also a personal thing and should always be so. Isn't that the kind of freedom we're told these people died for? I personally never wear one, that's my choice.

Thats fine Pete whether they are or not they dont have anything to do with rugby either. Thats my point.

If you're argument is that it has nothing to do with rugby, then what does it have anything to do with? You take that stance and people never wear one - much to the joy of Irish and Muslims, but I'll keep wearing mine like I am today because every day I walk past a monument where a WWI drill fort once stood - a lot of these guys didn't come back. I doubt they wanted to go to the Somme, but they did and I'm grateful they made the sacrifice as I might not have had the good life I've been given without that. The All Blacks agree with me and you disagree, that's that .

Pete330v2 wrote:Poppies are not political that is a simple fact although some people tend to judge others by their own standards and I know that here in Northern Ireland they've been politicized by those who simply go out of their way to do so.
The wearing of the poppy is to remember those who had their lives taken (nobody willingly gave their lives in any war) from them in all the wars to date including the ongoing conflicts. People from all backgrounds and beliefs were killed in world conflicts and it's a mark of respect to those people, not the politicians who sent them to their deaths.
It's also a personal thing and should always be so. Isn't that the kind of freedom we're told these people died for? I personally never wear one, that's my choice.

Putting in bold really makes it true

It has to do with war. Arent there enough war memorial ceremonies already?

2016 is the centenary of the Easter rising. Should the Ireland rugby team stitch an images of those executed for Ireland on their jerseys? No that would be ridiculous in my opinion as it has nothing to do with rugby.

Even though Francis Browning was president of the IRFU at the time and was killed during the Easter rising by a shot to the head.

GunsGerms wrote:It has to do with war. Isnt there enough war memorial ceremonies already?

Not until everyone accepts that sending another human being into a warzone is some how heroic and acceptable, so many like to show their support but very few are willing to stop more going the same way

GunsGerms wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Poppies are not political that is a simple fact although some people tend to judge others by their own standards and I know that here in Northern Ireland they've been politicized by those who simply go out of their way to do so.
The wearing of the poppy is to remember those who had their lives taken (nobody willingly gave their lives in any war) from them in all the wars to date including the ongoing conflicts. People from all backgrounds and beliefs were killed in world conflicts and it's a mark of respect to those people, not the politicians who sent them to their deaths.
It's also a personal thing and should always be so. Isn't that the kind of freedom we're told these people died for? I personally never wear one, that's my choice.

Thats fine Pete whether they are or not they dont have anything to do with rugby either. Thats my point.

It has nothing to do with rugby of course but try asking the players and fans if it means anything to them. It means something to the people involved in rugby and that's the wider point Guns. As I stated I don't wear a poppy despite my great grandfather, grandfather and uncle all having fought in WW1, WW2 and Korea respectfully. Me wearing a poppy doesn't mean anything to me but I respect others' rights to publicly display their feelings and respect for the dead.

marty2086 wrote:

rapidsnowman wrote:WW2 was about survival.

You could say it was politcal in that it was against facism - but I think that is pushing it a bit.

Nope WW2 was political, it was all based on trade agreements just like WW1

Fascism was fashionable in the 30s and seemingly again today so it wasn't against fascism

Exactly. All wars are political.

However people have a right to political expression, one form of wish is wearing a poppy, but this glorification of the poppy in recent years and demonstration of those who chose not to wear one amounts to the fascism we are led to believe poppy wearers stand against.

Sporting bodies should be politically neutral, therefore the poppy has no official place in my opinion but if someone individually wants to wear one then that shouldn't be an issue.

rodders wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

rapidsnowman wrote:WW2 was about survival.

You could say it was politcal in that it was against facism - but I think that is pushing it a bit.

Nope WW2 was political, it was all based on trade agreements just like WW1

Fascism was fashionable in the 30s and seemingly again today so it wasn't against fascism

Exactly. All wars are political.

However people have a right to political expression, one form of wish is wearing a poppy, but this glorification of the poppy in recent years and demonstration of those who chose not to wear one amounts to the fascism we are led to believe poppy wearers stand against.

Sporting bodies should be politically neutral, therefore the poppy has no official place in my opinion but if someone individually wants to wear one then that shouldn't be an issue.

The current bandwagon jumping is nothing but a PR stunt especially in football with these carefully orchestrated parades and teams having them the week before Remembrance Sunday because they are playing away from home that weekend.

Its funny how things ramped up since Afghanistan and Iraq when you had a govt wanting you not to criticise their god awful foreign policy

Pete330v2 wrote:

It has nothing to do with rugby of course but try asking the players and fans if it means anything to them. It means something to the people involved in rugby and that's the wider point Guns. As I stated I don't wear a poppy despite my great grandfather, grandfather and uncle all having fought in WW1, WW2 and Korea respectfully. Me wearing a poppy doesn't mean anything to me but I respect others' rights to publicly display their feelings and respect for the dead.

Thats fine Pete and like I have said I have wore one before specifically to commemorate a family member who we generally remember at a family dinner on his birthday every few years. I personally dont understand why they seem to be creeping in more and more into sport. Seems ridiculous to me.

GunsGerms wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:

It has nothing to do with rugby of course but try asking the players and fans if it means anything to them. It means something to the people involved in rugby and that's the wider point Guns. As I stated I don't wear a poppy despite my great grandfather, grandfather and uncle all having fought in WW1, WW2 and Korea respectfully. Me wearing a poppy doesn't mean anything to me but I respect others' rights to publicly display their feelings and respect for the dead.

Thats fine Pete and like I have said I have wore one before specifically to commemorate a family member who we generally remember at a family dinner on his birthday every few years. I personally dont understand why they seem to be creeping in more and more into sport. Seems ridiculous to me.

Fair enough Guns, each to their own, we're not entirely in disagreement

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:Respecting the sacrifice of brave soldiers is now excessive and garish?

Nothing wrong with showing respect to those who sacrificed so much for us all to have a better future.

Republic of Ireland was neutral during the 2nd world war and used the 1st world war as an opportunity to gain independence so I cannot say I have too much sympathy for your objection Gunsgerms.

Those who fought deserve respect. Those who stood on the sidelines? Not so much.

Why do they deserve respect during a rugby match in Rome? What has that got to do with anything?

Embroidering a poppy onto jerseys is ridiculous IMO.

Jeez man, if you dont like it then dont watch the game or buy the jersey, you appear to be overlooking the role that New Zealand played in the Italian campaign, and the fact that many New Zealanders travelled half way round the World and gave their lives in the pursuit of Hitler through Italy.

You need to understand what respect is before you start questioning it or who deserves it or not. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but consider it from a New Zealanders point of view in this instance.

Cyril wrote:

Re. the poppy thing. It's only really a problem if people get criticised for wearing them or not wearing them. That's when it becomes political.

Cyril gets the prize for most accurate post on the topic.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Jeez man, if you dont like it then dont watch the game or buy the jersey, you appear to be overlooking the role that New Zealand played in the Italian campaign, and the fact that many New Zealanders travelled half way round the World and gave their lives  in the pursuit of Hitler through Italy.

You need to understand what respect is before you start questioning it or who deserves it or not. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but consider it from a New Zealanders point of view in this instance.

You're missing the point. I am very much interested in watching the game. I'm not tuning in for a war memorial. If the ABs want to stitch poppies onto their jerseys that their business. It wont stop me from watching it however, nor will it stop me from thinking it is a bit garish and misplaced.

Are you saying its disrespectful that I think a rugby match isn't the right place for war memorials?

rapidsnowman wrote:I don't think poppies are political.

I think some people have tried to make it political by objecting.

On the flipside poppies have been used by right wing groups to spread their propaganda.

They honour the dead, the dead don't have political views - both sides should respect that.

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:

13 All Blacks dying including the 1st AB captain is pretty relevant to rugby I would say.

Tell that to the families of those ABs who died....

Not really. They didnt die playing rugby. The two events arent related at all really.

Foley didn't die playing rugby.

munkian wrote:

rapidsnowman wrote:I don't think poppies are political.

I think some people have tried to make it political by objecting.

On the flipside poppies have been used by right wing groups to spread their propaganda.

They honour the dead, the dead don't have political views - both sides should respect that.

You can always visit a graveyard or light a candle if you want to honour the dead. Why does it have to be at a rugby match?

beshocked wrote:Respecting the sacrifice of brave soldiers is now excessive and garish?

Nothing wrong with showing respect to those who sacrificed so much for us all to have a better future.

Republic of Ireland was neutral during the 2nd world war and used the 1st world war as an opportunity to gain independence so I cannot say I have too much sympathy for your objection Gunsgerms.

Those who fought deserve respect. Those who stood on the sidelines? Not so much.

Nothing neutral about refueling German U boats.

munkian wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:

13 All Blacks dying including the 1st AB captain is pretty relevant to rugby I would say.

Tell that to the families of those ABs who died....

Not really. They didnt die playing rugby. The two events arent related at all really.

Foley didn't die playing rugby.

He was coaching an Irish rugby team at the time of his death. Im sure the Irish rugby team wont be stitching his image into their jerseys every November for the next 100 years. Fail to see the connection.

GunsGerms wrote:

munkian wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:

13 All Blacks dying including the 1st AB captain is pretty relevant to rugby I would say.

Tell that to the families of those ABs who died....

Not really. They didnt die playing rugby. The two events arent related at all really.

Foley didn't die playing rugby.

He was coaching an Irish rugby team at the time of his death. Im sure the Irish rugby team wont be stitching his image into their jerseys every November for the next 100 years. Fail to see the connection.

So why sing Soldiers song at rugby matches ?

Its our national anthem and it is tradition to sing it at international games because it represents the country playing.

I personally dont like it. Much prefer Ireland's call because it isnt political, it isnt out dated, it isnt a terrible song and yet it does still evoke a modern sense of national pride.

My skin also crawls when I hear GSTQ. Mainly because it is also really outdated and the words are dire and it is an all round horrible song.

GunsGerms wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Jeez man, if you dont like it then dont watch the game or buy the jersey, you appear to be overlooking the role that New Zealand played in the Italian campaign, and the fact that many New Zealanders travelled half way round the World and gave their lives  in the pursuit of Hitler through Italy.

You need to understand what respect is before you start questioning it or who deserves it or not. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but consider it from a New Zealanders point of view in this instance.

You're missing the point. I am very much interested in watching the game. I'm not tuning in for a war memorial. If the ABs want to stitch poppies onto their jerseys that their business. It wont stop me from watching it however, nor will it stop me from thinking it is a bit garish and misplaced.

 GG all war is garish, but to say it is misplaced is just being insulting to those that paid the ultimate sacrifice in both wars, it probably doesnt matter one little jot to you the number of New Zealanders that made that sacrifice or the importance that they should be remembered. The promise is that by remembering them we will not repeat the killing that occurred during the two World Wars or else they died in vain. Do you really think thats a bad thing? It wasnt called "the Great War" for nothing.

Armistice day is on November 11.

The All Blacks want to pay tribute and recognise the sacrifice made, and they do that through Rugby, What better homage can they pay? If you dont like it or agree with it then you could always keep your disrespectful and insulting thoughts to yourself.

GunsGerms wrote:

munkian wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:

13 All Blacks dying including the 1st AB captain is pretty relevant to rugby I would say.

Tell that to the families of those ABs who died....

Not really. They didnt die playing rugby. The two events arent related at all really.

Foley didn't die playing rugby.

He was coaching an Irish rugby team at the time of his death. Im sure the Irish rugby team wont be stitching his image into their jerseys every November for the next 100 years. Fail to see the connection.

You say every November for the next 100 years, the article says "They will wear embroidered poppies on their sleeves this weekend". Maybe you meant every 100-year anniversary. Is every 100 years too often?

Odd thread.

munkian wrote:

So why sing Soldiers song at rugby matches ?

Only some of the matches. It's a National Anthem for some of us. Anthems get played.

GunsGerms wrote:

I personally dont like it. Much prefer Ireland's call because it isnt political, it isnt out dated, it isnt a terrible song and yet it does still evoke a modern sense of national pride.

Oh Dear. Phil Coulter schmaltz is what I hear. Funny how our ears are all different.

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

I personally dont like it. Much prefer Ireland's call because it isnt political, it isnt out dated, it isnt a terrible song and yet it does still evoke a modern sense of national pride.

Oh Dear.  Phil Coulter schmaltz is what I hear.  Funny how our ears are all different.

I don't know a single Irish person that likes it.

mikey_dragon wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:Respecting the sacrifice of brave soldiers is now excessive and garish?

Nothing wrong with showing respect to those who sacrificed so much for us all to have a better future.

Republic of Ireland was neutral during the 2nd world war and used the 1st world war as an opportunity to gain independence so I cannot say I have too much sympathy for your objection Gunsgerms.

Those who fought deserve respect. Those who stood on the sidelines? Not so much.

Why do they deserve respect during a rugby match in Rome? What has that got to do with anything?

Embroidering a poppy onto jerseys is ridiculous IMO.

They deserve respect all year every year. The Kiwi's haven't forgotten the ANZACs and the rest of the allies, but to show that they remember a poppy armband is worn. Italy were our enemies at that time of war so it goes to show what a respectful nation they are.

It may be worth noting that the poppy was originally conceived as a symbol of remembrance of those killed in WW1, when Italy and New Zealand (as part of the British Empire) were allies.  And in my view its a personal choice, or one for organisations.  I wear a poppy, but respect the views of people who don't.  Although I don't have a lot of respect for people who try to attach the symbol to their particular political ends.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

 GG all war is garish, but to say it is misplaced is just being insulting to those that paid the ultimate sacrifice in both wars, it probably doesnt matter one little jot to you the number of New Zealanders that made that sacrifice or the importance that they should be remembered. The promise is that by remembering them we will not repeat the killing that occurred during the two World Wars or else they died in vain. Do you really think thats a bad thing? It wasnt called "the Great War" for nothing.

Armistice day is on November 11.

The All Blacks want to pay tribute and recognise the sacrifice made, and they do that through Rugby, What better homage can they pay? If you dont like it or agree with it then you could always keep your disrespectful and insulting thoughts to yourself.

Its not being insulting at all. Im not saying New Zealanders cant celebrate their dead I'm just arguing that a rugby match is a odd stage for such a display. You seem to be taking that argument very personally for some reason.

I have my own relative that died in WW1 that I honour. I just don't do it at rugby matches. That's my point.