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Ward vs Kovalev - Who've you got?

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Post by Rowley on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 6:03 pm

First topic message reminder :

I can’t let a fight as big as this weekend pass without a thread asking for folks thoughts. For me this is one of those odd fights that I am looking forward to enormously but suspect might well fail to ignite. I suspect intriguing rather than exciting may accurately describe it. Got to say since this has been announced I have been picking Ward. I rate both of them highly but just think Ward is a special talent, a lot more rounded and like Mayweather one with an exceptional ability to shut opponents down and neutralise them.
 
That being said Kovalev is no underdog or no hoper, this is a genuinely close fight, and one in which you can make an argument either way. Whilst people rightly wax lyrical about Kovalev’s power his boxing ability should not be underplayed, few since Jones have solved the numerous riddles Hopkins poses so effectively. Also he is a natural big hitting light heavy, something Ward has never faced, whilst his defence has always looked solid at super middle he is not completely unhittable. Froch had his moments where he was able to land, so one would assume Sergey will be able to do likewise. How Ward stands up to that is one of the big questions in this one.
 
Also whilst Ward is hardly an old man his career post Super six has had more stops and starts than me attempting to run a marathon. Being in the ring with Kovalev would not be a place I would want to be blowing off a dose of ring rust. Despite that, I still think Ward will be victorious, he is smart at tying up/holding on the inside and fast enough that he will score with plenty when the fight is at range. If the ref is pretty easy going when it comes to his holding inside, and thus far he has tended to get away with it, I think he will secure the win on points.
 
All of this almost certainly guarantees you can put your house on Kovalev, but irrespective of the outcome I cannot wait for this fight. A genuine talent moving up to take on the best the division above him has to offer, this is the sort of fight the sport needs more of.

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Post by AdamT on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 7:47 pm

Kov takes his head clean off.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 8:01 pm

Ok I just watched 3-6 again and what I've realised is I scored to the aggressor because there was absolutely nothing in the rounds

I can sort of see where people are coming from

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Post by AdamT on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 8:03 pm

Close fight. Look forward to watching I closely tomorrow. You can miss things first time around, especially at stupid o'clock.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 8:07 pm

AdamT wrote:Close fight. Look forward to watching I closely tomorrow. You can miss things first time around, especially at stupid o'clock.

Haha I have no excuse I watched it this morning

I can literally see any score in this fight, from 114-113 (Ward) to 116-111 (Kovalev)

But again Ward was extremely negative

He was holding and hitting constantly and lunging in with the head, I'm not sure if you are allowed to score the shots that get landed when you clamp the opponents arm?

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Post by rapidringsroad on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 8:13 pm

I heard the result before I watched the fight which was a shame really but I was surprised when Warde got the nod. It was a close fight with many rounds too close to call and I was being influenced by Lederman's scoring at the end of each round. Why have three American Judges and an American Ref ? there's bound to be a bit of an advantage there.I don't know what Kovalev could do to win the rematch.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 8:15 pm

Ward too negative to get that for me but admired hid heart thought he might get overwhelmed after the kd

Those are two atg fighters for me though would do well in any era

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Post by AdamT on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 8:39 pm

They would do well, but not sure atg. Maybe I'm being harsh.

As good as Ward is, he does look a tad overrated. I'm guilty as anyone of that. I understand Kovalev is a fantastic fighter, but peak Jones or Spinks would of dealt with him.

Ward Is fantastic, but he isn't as good as peak Manny or Floyd p4p.

He is probably as good as young Hopkins, maybe Toney (still great company). He isn't quite as good as the very best in history.


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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 8:48 pm

Oh come now Jones never faced a light heavy like Kovalev I could see Sergy finding Jones chin up at 175

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 8:48 pm

AdamT wrote:They would do well, but not sure atg. Maybe I'm being harsh.

As good as Ward is, he does look a tad overrated. I'm guilty as anyone of that. I understand Kovalev is a fantastic fighter, but peak Jones or Spinks would of dealt with him.

Ward Is fantastic, but he isn't as good as peak Manny or Floyd p4p.

He is probably as good as young Hopkins, maybe Toney (still great company). He isn't quite as good as the very best in history.


Ward would have to move up to Heavyweight to even be in the conversation of a Pacquiao or Mayweather

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 8:51 pm

Not sure about that boxingfan, don't forget it's much easier to move through the lighter weights

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Post by AdamT on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 9:21 pm

Watched it again, still think Ward nicked it.

Still won't argue with the majority. I am probably wrong, but f..k it I'm not a judge and I see it for Ward.

Don't know what my old man is watching. 9-3? Senile like that idiotic creature Merchant.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 9:30 pm

Will definitely watch this one again with the sound down he definitely had a better second half even if it was 6-6 though surely the knock down tips it in Sergy's favour?

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 9:34 pm

I had it 7 5 on rewatch for kovalev

9 could be a ward round but I think kovalev takes it pretty clearly

There is nothing in most of the rounds I gave to ward

Hbo did a way better Job than sky

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 9:40 pm

Sky commentary was too pro Ward too for me they kept ignoring Sergy's less eye catching shots came if Ward landed even a jab

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 9:45 pm

They pick their guy and cheerlead for him

They always do it

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Post by AZZJ44 on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 9:52 pm

I scored it to Ward also. Big Kovalev fan and he's probably my favourite boxer at the minute and he put in a good performance but Ward nicked it. Either Kovalev slowed down or Ward worked him out. Really tight fight tho, nothing much in it.

With that said I don't think Ward is the same fighter as he was a few years ago. Could be the weight has slowed him down or he's just getting old but he's not the same.
Only seemed to throw the right hand as a slap to Kovalevs body too. Maybe the knockdown made him fearful of throwing it? Or he hurt it?
Either way, injured or not I had him winning but can see how it could have been scored to Kovalev. Kovalev deserves an immediate rematch too. My father said watch Stevenson go after Ward now but I can't see Kovalev allowing that before a rematch.

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Post by milkyboy on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 9:57 pm

Re the sky bias. Any particular reason why they would all pull for Ward. He's not a house fighter.

Here's an alternate theory. Most people lack a bit of confidence in their own opinion. A lead commentator takes a view, not only does this impact on the audience watching but on fellow pundits at ringside/studio. They might be a little undecided on a round so go with the commentator... he's highlighting the work of the fighter he thinks is winning/prefers, so this impacts them too.

Paulie scored the kameda McDonnell 2 fight wide for kameda. Almost everyone in America including his fellow commentators (Virgil hunter being one) screamed robbery. We in the uk watched a fight with a different US commentary team who had it a shut out for McDonnell and couldnt understand the fuss. That's the most extreme example I could think of.

i try to ignore commentary, (some watch with the sound off for that reason) but I think it often impacts on audiences subconsciously, including fellow pundits. Sheep mentality, comfort in numbers etc. I'm happy to say I thought McDonnell won easily, and that paulie was on acid. He generally likes one showy punch over 10 matter of fact ones (made a big point about none effective aggression last night). He makes some valid and interesting observations but I'm not sure he's a great judge.

Last night he did have a point, as Ward started to neutralise kovalev's aggression - but he neutralised it without offering a lot in return.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 9:58 pm

Ward has to do the rematch it's in the contract

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Post by Jermaine2015 on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 9:58 pm

Thought Ward edges it, Kovalev faded in the second half of the fight. Kovalev should've finished Ward when he dropped and continuously hurt the superb American in the early rounds. After round 6 Kovalev's power wasn't there any more. Ward's targeting of the body took it from Kovalev. I had Ward by 1 round.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 9:59 pm

Sky cheerlead for one guy

They picked ward before the fight started

Just as they picked mayweather before the Pacquiao fight

Just listen to the build up its so obvious who they are pulling for

Re commentary you are absolutely right

It's near impossible to see everything that happens in the ring especially if they exchange blows at the same time

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 10:02 pm

Let's all be honest for a second Ward was lucky to get it

There'd be far less debate if they'd given it to Sergy

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 10:12 pm

Definitely

I had it closer on a rewatch buy still kovalev won

Some of those rounds are hard to score

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Post by Atila on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 10:20 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:Let's all be honest for a second Ward was lucky to get it

There'd be far less debate if they'd given it to Sergy
From what I've read so far online, there would indeed be less debate if Kovalev had got the decision. Although, I did see one 'expert' who had Ward winning 116-111.

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here. Some don't like the old adage that the challenger has to take the title from the champ, and that close rounds that could go either way should go to the champion, but it might make for better fights if that was the case. Challengers would have to make more of an effort to actually win rounds, rather than try to nick them.

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Post by Jermaine2015 on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 10:23 pm

Sky are obviously gonna favour Ward as its protects their love child Carl Froch. The self proclaimed warrior can now say he lost to a two division champion...

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 10:30 pm

Jermaine2015 wrote:Sky are obviously gonna favour Ward as its protects their love child Carl Froch. The self proclaimed warrior can now say he lost to a two division champion...

You're delusional.....

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 10:46 pm

I liked the referee in the fight let them wrestle it out allowed just enough so as not to spoil the flow imagine how those wannabes Cortez and Weeks might have ruined that fight

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Post by Jermaine2015 on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 11:25 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Jermaine2015 wrote:Sky are obviously gonna favour Ward as its protects their love child Carl Froch. The self proclaimed warrior can now say he lost to a two division champion...

You're delusional.....
Back to boxing today Mr Soccer?

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Sun 20 Nov 2016, 11:26 pm

http://www.boxingscene.com/video-sergey-kovalev-wants-payback-very-upset-with-loss--110937

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Post by Atila on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 12:21 am

OK, I just watched the fight on youtube. It was indeed a close fight.

Shame for me that I didn't see it live, I think I would have enjoyed it a lot more. As it was, I was a little disappointed in the action. It wasn't for me, a great fight.

I scored the fight 115-112 Kovalev.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 8:38 am

Atila wrote:OK, I just watched the fight on youtube. It was indeed a close fight.

Shame for me that I didn't see it live, I think I would have enjoyed it a lot more. As it was, I was a little disappointed in the action. It wasn't for me, a great fight.

I scored the fight 115-112 Kovalev.

Same as me after I watched it a second time, also taking into account all the comments made about missing Ward's body shots, which I did the first time because I got so annoyed with his mauling

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Post by ShahenshahG on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 8:48 am

Usurers

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Post by hogey on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 10:19 am

Have watched it twice and had it 115-112 for Kovalev, on second viewing with less tired eyes i thought it was a even more clear win for him. I can barely make a case for any of the first 6 being Ward rounds and it seems Sky were giving him rounds for just staying out of trouble and not getting blown away. If Ward had put up that performance in front of those judges he would have been given a wide decision win. Clinching and the odd pop shot and a few decent body shots should not be enough to outscore an aggressive fighter who is throwing and landing punches for the full 12 rounds. I said it to my mates before the first bell that i suspected all Ward has to do is hear the final bell and any the fight be perceived as close and he will get the belts.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 10:22 am

John David Jackson the star of the whole event for me really enjoyed him the last couple of months

Going back to the fight again for a second I read somewhere that the 114-113 scorecards smacked of collusion and wondered if anybody else felt the same?

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Post by JabMachineMK2 on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 10:27 am

Ok, just stop. I get that some people want to defend their predictions and that some people are completely and utterly blinded by patriotism but lets look at this rationally. Most of you didn't watch this live. If you did, you'd have commented more here. You didn't - meaning you probably found out the result and then watched the fight with that in your mind.

Ward lost 1 - 4. He got knocked down too. Meaning that the scorecard at that point was 40 - 35. I gave 4 to Ward personally, because I felt like he showed true grit and heart to fight back, but realistically the round should have gone to Kovalev if you're unbiased and go by activity. The proper fightback started in the 5th, and you can give that to Ward. Then 6, 7 and 8 because he was just spoiling and landing the better shots. So that makes the scorecard 76 - 75 to Kovalev. You can toss a coin over 9, so at that point you can have it evens or you can have it for Kovalev. I had it 86 - 84. Still Ward behind. Then 10, if you've scored that for Ward then you need to reassess your hobby, because you don't know what you're seeing. 11 and 12 should have gone to kovalev for actually wanting to fight too, the last round was clearly his. Meaning the final scorecard was (for me) 116 - 111. If you go by me giving Ward the 4th generously and the flip a coin 9th, you've got 114 - 113 to Kovalev. Thats generous to Ward.

To have it any other way is ridiculous. lets face it though. World championships on the line, Russia vs America.

Where's it held?

America.

What nationality are the judges?

American.

Poor Kovalev didn't have a hope in hell.

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Post by AdamT on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 10:51 am

There we go. The man has spoke.

Kov won!

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Post by ShahenshahG on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 10:52 am

Blasphemers

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:09 am

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Ok, just stop. I get that some people want to defend their predictions and that some people are completely and utterly blinded by patriotism but lets look at this rationally. Most of you didn't watch this live. If you did, you'd have commented more here. You didn't - meaning you probably found out the result and then watched the fight with that in your mind.

Ward lost 1 - 4. He got knocked down too. Meaning that the scorecard at that point was 40 - 35. I gave 4 to Ward personally, because I felt like he showed true grit and heart to fight back, but realistically the round should have gone to Kovalev if you're unbiased and go by activity. The proper fightback started in the 5th, and you can give that to Ward. Then 6, 7 and 8 because he was just spoiling and landing the better shots. So that makes the scorecard 76 - 75 to Kovalev. You can toss a coin over 9, so at that point you can have it evens or you can have it for Kovalev. I had it 86 - 84. Still Ward behind. Then 10, if you've scored that for Ward then you need to reassess your hobby, because you don't know what you're seeing. 11 and 12 should have gone to kovalev for actually wanting to fight too, the last round was clearly his. Meaning the final scorecard was (for me) 116 - 111. If you go by me giving Ward the 4th generously and the flip a coin 9th, you've got 114 - 113 to Kovalev. Thats generous to Ward.

To have it any other way is ridiculous. lets face it though. World championships on the line, Russia vs America.

Where's it held?

America.

What nationality are the judges?

American.

Poor Kovalev didn't have a hope in hell.

clap

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Post by JabMachineMK2 on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:10 am

AdamT wrote:There we go. The man has spoke.

Kov won!

You've been asked multiple times to explain how you think Ward won and you've not answered it once.

How did you have a man who was 5 points down going into the 5th round winning the fight when he lost the last 3 rounds?

Can you please explain that?

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Post by aja424 on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:10 am

I thought Kovalev just edged it, although Ward was making some in roads down the stretch. All the boxers and exboxers have it for Ward, at least what I've read and heard anyway, so I'm more than happy to accept that Ward won. Very close fight and Ward was impressive the way he carried on after the knock down. Not a fan of his style though, effective but boring.

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Post by JabMachineMK2 on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:24 am

I don't debate that Ward was coming back and nicked a few rounds - but can you honestly say he won his rounds as clearly as Kovalev? Can you say that he did enough to recover the point he lost from being knocked down? Did he ever have Kovalev in trouble? Did he ever connect the same number of punches in a round? Don't give me percentages, give me the actual number.

This wasn't like his previous fights where he's outclassed and it's been clear. It isn't like vs Froch where the gulf was clear to see and even the lack of activity, you saw that he was the better fighter, he didn't win his rounds like Kovalev did. Kovalev is the champion and won more rounds, knocking Ward down on the way.

I can't believe that Chris of all people are claiming a straw man argument about 3 American judges in America giving the nod to the American gold medalist over the Russian Wrecking Machine. Boxing should never be like that. They should have had 3 impartial judges from around the world.

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Post by AdamT on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:29 am

Only If you tell me of your sparring stories. Deal?

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Post by JabMachineMK2 on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:31 am

AdamT wrote:Only If you tell me of your sparring stories. Deal?

You're not winding me up kid. You're like a woman, deflecting away because your actual opinion is empty and baseless. Run along and let the bigger boys troll me, you're not good enough.

Also, recycling other peoples jokes from a time you weren't even around? Nice one.


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Post by AdamT on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:31 am

He won every round after the 4th. In fact he probably edged the third too.

Kovalev hit a lot of shoulders gloves.

Now, how did you get on with Brook? Did he punch really hard? How fast was he?

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Post by JabMachineMK2 on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:32 am

AdamT wrote:He won every round after the 4th. In fact he probably edged the third too.

Kovalev hit a lot of shoulders gloves.

Now, how did you get on with Brook? Did he punch really hard? How fast was he?

Foe list for you, mini Truss.

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Post by AdamT on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:33 am

Yes they may be bigger boys. I may be a pathetic troll. But at Least I don't pretend I'm something I'm not.

You're absolutely pathetic and it was very weird lying like that.

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Post by AdamT on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:33 am

Lol

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Post by lfc91 on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:39 am

JabMachineMK2 wrote:
AdamT wrote:Only If you tell me of your sparring stories. Deal?

You're not winding me up kid. You're like a woman, deflecting away because your actual opinion is empty and baseless. Run along and let the bigger boys troll me, you're not good enough.

Also, recycling other peoples jokes from a time you weren't even around? Nice one.

More than a tad sexist?

On the point, I to had Ward winning the fight by the smallest of margins and when the 3 scores were announced before the winner, I was relatively happy. IMO I had witnessed a close fight and was happy to see that it was scored as such. If the score had been reversed in Kovalev's favour I would have been equally as happy. (Maybe more so as Kovalev is a more entertaining fighter to me).

Either way I will happily watch a rematch of this fight! Preferably on neutral ground to try to avoid as much controversy with the result.

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Post by AdamT on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:42 am

You see the problem I have with Brooks mate, is he thinks his opinion is absolute.

Like him saying Ward lost the last 3 is gospel.

It was a close fight and I never had a problem with anyone siding with Kov.

He certainly has a case for winning, I just think Ward edged more rounds. I'm nota judge and neither is anyone else on here.

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Post by milkyboy on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:45 am

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Ok, just stop. I get that some people want to defend their predictions and that some people are completely and utterly blinded by patriotism but lets look at this rationally. Most of you didn't watch this live. If you did, you'd have commented more here. You didn't - meaning you probably found out the result and then watched the fight with that in your mind.

Ward lost 1 - 4. He got knocked down too. Meaning that the scorecard at that point was 40 - 35. I gave 4 to Ward personally, because I felt like he showed true grit and heart to fight back, but realistically the round should have gone to Kovalev if you're unbiased and go by activity. The proper fightback started in the 5th, and you can give that to Ward. Then 6, 7 and 8 because he was just spoiling and landing the better shots. So that makes the scorecard 76 - 75 to Kovalev. You can toss a coin over 9, so at that point you can have it evens or you can have it for Kovalev. I had it 86 - 84. Still Ward behind. Then 10, if you've scored that for Ward then you need to reassess your hobby, because you don't know what you're seeing. 11 and 12 should have gone to kovalev for actually wanting to fight too, the last round was clearly his. Meaning the final scorecard was (for me) 116 - 111. If you go by me giving Ward the 4th generously and the flip a coin 9th, you've got 114 - 113 to Kovalev. Thats generous to Ward.

To have it any other way is ridiculous. lets face it though. World championships on the line, Russia vs America.

Where's it held?

America.

What nationality are the judges?

American.

Poor Kovalev didn't have a hope in hell.

Nice of you to drop by and tell everyone how to score a fight.

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Post by milkyboy on Mon 21 Nov 2016, 11:57 am

My card having now watched the 6th and 7th.

10-9
10-8
9-10
10-9
9-10
10-9
9-10
9-10
10-9
9-10
10-10

115-114 kovalev

A lot of close rounds, you're going to get a wide discrepancy of cards, without the scorer necessarily being incompetent.


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