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Ward vs Kovalev - Who've you got?

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Post by Rowley on Tue 15 Nov 2016, 6:03 pm

First topic message reminder :

I can’t let a fight as big as this weekend pass without a thread asking for folks thoughts. For me this is one of those odd fights that I am looking forward to enormously but suspect might well fail to ignite. I suspect intriguing rather than exciting may accurately describe it. Got to say since this has been announced I have been picking Ward. I rate both of them highly but just think Ward is a special talent, a lot more rounded and like Mayweather one with an exceptional ability to shut opponents down and neutralise them.
 
That being said Kovalev is no underdog or no hoper, this is a genuinely close fight, and one in which you can make an argument either way. Whilst people rightly wax lyrical about Kovalev’s power his boxing ability should not be underplayed, few since Jones have solved the numerous riddles Hopkins poses so effectively. Also he is a natural big hitting light heavy, something Ward has never faced, whilst his defence has always looked solid at super middle he is not completely unhittable. Froch had his moments where he was able to land, so one would assume Sergey will be able to do likewise. How Ward stands up to that is one of the big questions in this one.
 
Also whilst Ward is hardly an old man his career post Super six has had more stops and starts than me attempting to run a marathon. Being in the ring with Kovalev would not be a place I would want to be blowing off a dose of ring rust. Despite that, I still think Ward will be victorious, he is smart at tying up/holding on the inside and fast enough that he will score with plenty when the fight is at range. If the ref is pretty easy going when it comes to his holding inside, and thus far he has tended to get away with it, I think he will secure the win on points.
 
All of this almost certainly guarantees you can put your house on Kovalev, but irrespective of the outcome I cannot wait for this fight. A genuine talent moving up to take on the best the division above him has to offer, this is the sort of fight the sport needs more of.

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Post by Atila on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 1:41 pm

Pedro147 wrote:
Atila wrote:
Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:People need to get over the fact that Ward won a close fight.

Its not the end of the world. I disagree with Merchant and I enjoyed watching the fight and would definitely watch the rematch
With the suspense of seeing 2 top fighters go at it, I would have enjoyed seeing it live, but I only saw a replay. However, when I saw it, I didn't actually think it was that exciting a fight. Take away who was fighting and the controversy over the decision and it was a scrappy, untidy fight, with not enough punches landed by either man.

Do you think a different ref could make for a better fight? The ref in his defence was trying to let the fighters work out from the holding but I think it was perhaps allowed to go on too often.
A good question and one I have no definitive answer to.

Watching the fight, I wasn't thinking that the referee should do more. I was more thinking that the fighters should more, especially Ward.

Some don't like the idea that the close rounds should go to the champion, but it might help if the challengers thought that way. It seems that these days fighters are more than happy to try and nick rounds rather than go out and make a statement by winning them clearly. Ward, in my view, only tried to nick rounds, and I don't think he nicked enough for a win.

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Post by JabMachineMK2 on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 1:44 pm

Urgh, I wish people wouldn't quote that little bluebottle so I don't have to see his immature antics. I put him on my foe list for a reason Pedro!

Anyway, fully agree with what you're saying regarding the rounds he pointed out. Apparently I'm not allowed an opinion in his eyes, despite him banging a similar drum about how he scored the fight. Don't think those that scored it to Ward scored it properly, personally. When you call them out on it, some people (Chris) put up strong, logical and thoughtful arguments that can potentially change your thought process. Others... do what he did. There's a reason I've been keeping away. Anyway, getting back to the topic.

I've stated before I actually like Ward and coming into the fight i wanted him to win as it'd be better for boxing, I feel he could go back down to 168 and take on GGG, and he could in reality go up to cruiser and feed Bellews kids. Think there's more in him than there would be Kovalev who would stagnate the division like Klitschko did at heavyweight.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 1:51 pm

AdamT wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:One thing we can all agree on

Kovalev is the better BOXER

Not trolling, why do you say this?

If it's because he should of got the decision, then surely you rate Marquez over Pacquiao.

Please be consistent.

Totally misunderstand my point

Boxing is the sport of punching

When they had a boxing match Kovalev clearly got the better, which is why Ward couldn't stand in the center of the ring and have a boxing match with Kovalev

When they went dirty and mauled on the inside Ward was doing better

When Ward tried to fight on the outside he got beaten

If nothing else you must be able to see that

Ward had to lunge forward after throwing one punch

Are you telling me that Marquez didn't stand in the center of the ring and go blow for blow with Pacquiao (ie BOXING)

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 1:55 pm

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Urgh, I wish people wouldn't quote that little bluebottle so I don't have to see his immature antics. I put him on my foe list for a reason Pedro!

Anyway, fully agree with what you're saying regarding the rounds he pointed out. Apparently I'm not allowed an opinion in his eyes, despite him banging a similar drum about how he scored the fight. Don't think those that scored it to Ward scored it properly, personally. When you call them out on it, some people (Chris) put up strong, logical and thoughtful arguments that can potentially change your thought process. Others... do what he did. There's a reason I've been keeping away. Anyway, getting back to the topic.

I've stated before I actually like Ward and coming into the fight i wanted him to win as it'd be better for boxing, I feel he could go back down to 168 and take on GGG, and he could in reality go up to cruiser and feed Bellews kids. Think there's more in him than there would be Kovalev who would stagnate the division like Klitschko did at heavyweight.

Rather be a bluebottle than a compulsive liar. I wouldn't put you on my foe list. I want to hear how you got on with Brook!!

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 1:56 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:
AdamT wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:One thing we can all agree on

Kovalev is the better BOXER

Not trolling, why do you say this?

If it's because he should of got the decision, then surely you rate Marquez over Pacquiao.

Please be consistent.

Totally misunderstand my point

Boxing is the sport of punching

When they had a boxing match Kovalev clearly got the better, which is why Ward couldn't stand in the center of the ring and have a boxing match with Kovalev

When they went dirty and mauled on the inside Ward was doing better

When Ward tried to fight on the outside he got beaten

If nothing else you must be able to see that

Ward had to lunge forward after throwing one punch

Are you telling me that Marquez didn't stand in the center of the ring and go blow for blow with Pacquiao (ie BOXING)

Stop deflecting the question. I asked you about Marquez. You said Kovalev won, so he is better.

Marquez also should beat Manny 3 times, is he better??

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:04 pm

Look boxing88 it doesn't matter. I am not trying to upset no one else. Was a genuine question.

Don't throw the dummy out of the pram. I can debate sensibly, when I respect the poster.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:06 pm

AdamT wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:
AdamT wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:One thing we can all agree on

Kovalev is the better BOXER

Not trolling, why do you say this?

If it's because he should of got the decision, then surely you rate Marquez over Pacquiao.

Please be consistent.

Totally misunderstand my point

Boxing is the sport of punching

When they had a boxing match Kovalev clearly got the better, which is why Ward couldn't stand in the center of the ring and have a boxing match with Kovalev

When they went dirty and mauled on the inside Ward was doing better

When Ward tried to fight on the outside he got beaten

If nothing else you must be able to see that

Ward had to lunge forward after throwing one punch

Are you telling me that Marquez didn't stand in the center of the ring and go blow for blow with Pacquiao (ie BOXING)

Stop deflecting the question. I asked you about Marquez. You said Kovalev won, so he is better.

Marquez also should beat Manny 3 times, is he better??

You do know I'm a Marquez FAN BOY, he is my favourite fighter of all time, so of course I think he is a better boxer

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:08 pm

He's a better boxer. Manny is a better puncher/fighter??

Anyway I enjoy debating with you. I will only troll those that provoke me. If everyone is sensible, then so shall I.

I said sorry to decent posters like yourself and Herman earlier and meant it.


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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:12 pm

Just thinking about it I could see the fight anywhere from 8-4 Sergy to 115-113 Ward

Therefore going on the mean average have to give it to Kov

If I could see it 116-114 either way then a draw would be fairest

Likewise if I could see it 115-113 Sergy or 116-112 Ward then no doubt I'd give it to Andre

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:13 pm

haha, I have no issue with debating people

As you know yourself I've debated with you a lot on here

If it means I learn more about the sport as a consequence, then that's even better

I'm here to learn as long as someone can give me reasons rather than insulting me, thankfully that only happens on the YTBC and not here

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:18 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:haha, I have no issue with debating people

As you know yourself I've debated with you a lot on here

If it means I learn more about the sport as a consequence, then that's even better

I'm here to learn as long as someone can give me reasons rather than insulting me, thankfully that only happens on the YTBC and not here

Too many on here take them selves too seriously. I just say what I think. There are more subtle trolls like Haz, who don't get called out, because they bash the right fighters.

Anyway, I have never insulted no one on here, unless I was provoked first. I was a genuine pster on here and for months I was called an alias, because I agreed with Trussman on the Floyd issue.

I didn't cry about it or foe anyone then. It is what it is.

Sensible boxing post from now on.

Oh and one last little thing. Show Jabmachine some love. He used to be a regular sparring partner of Brook and others.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:21 pm

That was a typo

Meant to type I could see it anywhere from 8-4 Sergy to 114-113 Ward couldn't see 115-113 Andre that's too wide

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Post by hazharrison on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:26 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:That was a typo

Meant to type I could see it anywhere from 8-4 Sergy to 114-113 Ward couldn't see 115-113 Andre that's too wide

Especially as he didn't win!

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Post by sittingringside on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:28 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:
AdamT wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:One thing we can all agree on

Kovalev is the better BOXER

Not trolling, why do you say this?

If it's because he should of got the decision, then surely you rate Marquez over Pacquiao.

Please be consistent.

Totally misunderstand my point

Boxing is the sport of punching

When they had a boxing match Kovalev clearly got the better, which is why Ward couldn't stand in the center of the ring and have a boxing match with Kovalev

When they went dirty and mauled on the inside Ward was doing better


When Ward tried to fight on the outside he got beaten

If nothing else you must be able to see that

Ward had to lunge forward after throwing one punch

Are you telling me that Marquez didn't stand in the center of the ring and go blow for blow with Pacquiao (ie BOXING)

I agree with you in the sense we use 'boxer' and 'boxing' when when we characterise fighters i.e 'he's the boxer in this match', 'he might be powerful but will be able to cope with Jones' boxing'. However, I find the comment I highlighted to be problematic, as it implies that they were no longer engaging in a boxing match. Although it would be bizarre to suggest that punching is not the central component of the sport of boxing, clinching and wrestling of some form are also valid elements of the sport. Obviously there are limitations on this, hence you can't use your head or elbows, throw your opponent to the floor, or clinch excessively, but you couldn't have boxing without clinching and mauling and they have been a part of the sport since time immemorial. Kovalev winning the long range exchanges was something I didn't expect at all, and I'm looking forward to seeing if he can do it again in the rematch!

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:28 pm

hazharrison wrote:
Herman Jaeger wrote:That was a typo

Meant to type I could see it anywhere from 8-4 Sergy to 114-113 Ward couldn't see 115-113 Andre that's too wide

Especially as he didn't win!

Did he not?? Funny I thought he was called the winner.

Ladies and gentleman the above is the greatest troll in 606 history.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:30 pm

hazharrison wrote:
Herman Jaeger wrote:That was a typo

Meant to type I could see it anywhere from 8-4 Sergy to 114-113 Ward couldn't see 115-113 Andre that's too wide

Especially as he didn't win!


I know it, you know it, but try telling that to some of the other posters round here

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:35 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
Herman Jaeger wrote:That was a typo

Meant to type I could see it anywhere from 8-4 Sergy to 114-113 Ward couldn't see 115-113 Andre that's too wide

Especially as he didn't win!


I know it, you know it, but try telling that to some of the other posters round here

We are all wrong Wink

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Post by hazharrison on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:37 pm

sittingringside wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:
AdamT wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:One thing we can all agree on

Kovalev is the better BOXER

Not trolling, why do you say this?

If it's because he should of got the decision, then surely you rate Marquez over Pacquiao.

Please be consistent.

Totally misunderstand my point

Boxing is the sport of punching

When they had a boxing match Kovalev clearly got the better, which is why Ward couldn't stand in the center of the ring and have a boxing match with Kovalev

When they went dirty and mauled on the inside Ward was doing better


When Ward tried to fight on the outside he got beaten

If nothing else you must be able to see that

Ward had to lunge forward after throwing one punch

Are you telling me that Marquez didn't stand in the center of the ring and go blow for blow with Pacquiao (ie BOXING)

I agree with you in the sense we use 'boxer' and 'boxing' when when we characterise fighters i.e 'he's the boxer in this match', 'he might be powerful but will be able to cope with Jones' boxing'. However, I find the comment I highlighted to be problematic, as it implies that they were no longer engaging in a boxing match. Although it would be bizarre to suggest that punching is not the central component of the sport of boxing, clinching and wrestling of some form are also valid elements of the sport. Obviously there are limitations on this, hence you can't use your head or elbows, throw your opponent to the floor, or clinch excessively, but you couldn't have boxing without clinching and mauling and they have been a part of the sport since time immemorial. Kovalev winning the long range exchanges was something I didn't expect at all, and I'm looking forward to seeing if he can do it again in the rematch!

Good post and there was very definitely characterisation at play here. How often have we heard about Ward being a "master boxer"? And so when he started to stem the tide in round 7, there were some who decided he was being "masterful" when in fact, he was being a bit dirty and getting off with more left hooks.

A similar thing happened in the Floyd vs Maidana fight. Floyd was given far too much credit over the second half of that fight in my book (in some of the rounds, Maidana's whirling dervish routine pipped Mayweather's jabbing but wasn't scored as such - the idea that the master boxer has turned the tide had taken hold). At least Floyd had presence, though, and so I can understand that. Ward doesn't have that (or maybe he does?).

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:40 pm

Still think Maidana beat Floyd Haz? Come on man!

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Post by hazharrison on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:40 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
Herman Jaeger wrote:That was a typo

Meant to type I could see it anywhere from 8-4 Sergy to 114-113 Ward couldn't see 115-113 Andre that's too wide

Especially as he didn't win!


I know it, you know it, but try telling that to some of the other posters round here

Some good boxing people scored 114-113 Ward and on repeat viewing, some of the rounds looked closer than on first watch.

Others have their little agendas (Ward being the riposte to anyone giving Golovkin praise, who in turn winds up the Floyd fans as he's the anti-Floyd - all very complicated and extremely childish).


Last edited by hazharrison on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by hazharrison on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:42 pm

AdamT wrote:Still think Maidana beat Floyd Haz? Come on man!

First fight, yes, thought he nicked it (or nicked a draw, can't quite remember how I had it).

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:42 pm

hazharrison wrote:
Herman Jaeger wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
Herman Jaeger wrote:That was a typo

Meant to type I could see it anywhere from 8-4 Sergy to 114-113 Ward couldn't see 115-113 Andre that's too wide

Especially as he didn't win!


I know it, you know it, but try telling that to some of the other posters round here

Some good boxing people scored 114-113 Ward and on repeat viewing, some of the rounds looked closer than on first watch.

Others have their little agendas (Ward being the riposte to anyone giving Golovkin praise, which in turn winds up the Floyd fans - all very complicated and extremely childish).

I scored it 114-113 too.

Is it childish when you bash Floyd?

Genuine question and I'm very curious.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:44 pm

hazharrison wrote:
AdamT wrote:Still think Maidana beat Floyd Haz? Come on man!

First fight, yes, thought he nicked it (or nicked a draw, can't quite remember how I had it).

Well surely your scoring for that fight is in the minority, similar to me with Ward. So you should understand that different people like different things.

I do grant you, that Maidana ran him very close that night.

Castillo did beat him. He is the only boxer to beat Floyd!

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:49 pm

hazharrison wrote:
sittingringside wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:
AdamT wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:One thing we can all agree on

Kovalev is the better BOXER

Not trolling, why do you say this?

If it's because he should of got the decision, then surely you rate Marquez over Pacquiao.

Please be consistent.

Totally misunderstand my point

Boxing is the sport of punching

When they had a boxing match Kovalev clearly got the better, which is why Ward couldn't stand in the center of the ring and have a boxing match with Kovalev

When they went dirty and mauled on the inside Ward was doing better


When Ward tried to fight on the outside he got beaten

If nothing else you must be able to see that

Ward had to lunge forward after throwing one punch

Are you telling me that Marquez didn't stand in the center of the ring and go blow for blow with Pacquiao (ie BOXING)

I agree with you in the sense we use 'boxer' and 'boxing' when when we characterise fighters i.e 'he's the boxer in this match', 'he might be powerful but will be able to cope with Jones' boxing'. However, I find the comment I highlighted to be problematic, as it implies that they were no longer engaging in a boxing match. Although it would be bizarre to suggest that punching is not the central component of the sport of boxing, clinching and wrestling of some form are also valid elements of the sport. Obviously there are limitations on this, hence you can't use your head or elbows, throw your opponent to the floor, or clinch excessively, but you couldn't have boxing without clinching and mauling and they have been a part of the sport since time immemorial. Kovalev winning the long range exchanges was something I didn't expect at all, and I'm looking forward to seeing if he can do it again in the rematch!

Good post and there was very definitely characterisation at play here. How often have we heard about Ward being a "master boxer"? And so when he started to stem the tide in round 7, there were some who decided he was being "masterful" when in fact, he was being a bit dirty and getting off with more left hooks.

A similar thing happened in the Floyd vs Maidana fight. Floyd was given far too much credit over the second half of that fight in my book (in some of the rounds, Maidana's whirling dervish routine pipped Mayweather's jabbing but wasn't scored as such - the idea that the master boxer has turned the tide had taken hold). At least Floyd had presence, though, and so I can understand that. Ward doesn't have that (or maybe he does?).

It was all part of the build up, Kovalev was the "puncher" and ward was the "boxer"

Sky were repeatidly harping on about Kovalev being a puncher and then made a side remark to the fact that he "can box as well"

Kovalev is an excellent boxer, I told anyone who would listen that

His footwork and jab are really something


Last edited by BoxingFan88 on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:51 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
sittingringside wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:
AdamT wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:One thing we can all agree on

Kovalev is the better BOXER

Not trolling, why do you say this?

If it's because he should of got the decision, then surely you rate Marquez over Pacquiao.

Please be consistent.

Totally misunderstand my point

Boxing is the sport of punching

When they had a boxing match Kovalev clearly got the better, which is why Ward couldn't stand in the center of the ring and have a boxing match with Kovalev

When they went dirty and mauled on the inside Ward was doing better


When Ward tried to fight on the outside he got beaten

If nothing else you must be able to see that

Ward had to lunge forward after throwing one punch

Are you telling me that Marquez didn't stand in the center of the ring and go blow for blow with Pacquiao (ie BOXING)

I agree with you in the sense we use 'boxer' and 'boxing' when when we characterise fighters i.e 'he's the boxer in this match', 'he might be powerful but will be able to cope with Jones' boxing'. However, I find the comment I highlighted to be problematic, as it implies that they were no longer engaging in a boxing match. Although it would be bizarre to suggest that punching is not the central component of the sport of boxing, clinching and wrestling of some form are also valid elements of the sport. Obviously there are limitations on this, hence you can't use your head or elbows, throw your opponent to the floor, or clinch excessively, but you couldn't have boxing without clinching and mauling and they have been a part of the sport since time immemorial. Kovalev winning the long range exchanges was something I didn't expect at all, and I'm looking forward to seeing if he can do it again in the rematch!

Good post and there was very definitely characterisation at play here. How often have we heard about Ward being a "master boxer"? And so when he started to stem the tide in round 7, there were some who decided he was being "masterful" when in fact, he was being a bit dirty and getting off with more left hooks.

A similar thing happened in the Floyd vs Maidana fight. Floyd was given far too much credit over the second half of that fight in my book (in some of the rounds, Maidana's whirling dervish routine pipped Mayweather's jabbing but wasn't scored as such - the idea that the master boxer has turned the tide had taken hold). At least Floyd had presence, though, and so I can understand that. Ward doesn't have that (or maybe he does?).

It was all part of the build up, Kovalev was the "puncher" and ward was the "boxer"

Kovalev is an excellent boxer, I told anyone who would listen that

His footwork and jab are really something

His jab is awesome. It is quite a weapon. He doesn't look like he can adapt well. It could be his only weakness.

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Post by hazharrison on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:53 pm

AdamT wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
AdamT wrote:Still think Maidana beat Floyd Haz? Come on man!

First fight, yes, thought he nicked it (or nicked a draw, can't quite remember how I had it).

Well surely your scoring for that fight is in the minority, similar to me with Ward. So you should understand that different people like different things.

I do grant you, that Maidana ran him very close that night.

Castillo did beat him. He is the only boxer to beat Floyd!

You don't score on what you like. You score on what's happening.

Most scored Floyd a 7-5 winner over Maidana. I gave one round the other way (may have scored another even). I thought Floyd's work was overstated (as I said on a previous post).

Here, there was only one winner - regardless what score you put together. Close but clear.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:56 pm

Man I disagree. I think nearly everyone scored Floyd over Maidana.

He was a close but clear winner too.

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Post by hazharrison on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:56 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
sittingringside wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:
AdamT wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:One thing we can all agree on

Kovalev is the better BOXER

Not trolling, why do you say this?

If it's because he should of got the decision, then surely you rate Marquez over Pacquiao.

Please be consistent.

Totally misunderstand my point

Boxing is the sport of punching

When they had a boxing match Kovalev clearly got the better, which is why Ward couldn't stand in the center of the ring and have a boxing match with Kovalev

When they went dirty and mauled on the inside Ward was doing better


When Ward tried to fight on the outside he got beaten

If nothing else you must be able to see that

Ward had to lunge forward after throwing one punch

Are you telling me that Marquez didn't stand in the center of the ring and go blow for blow with Pacquiao (ie BOXING)

I agree with you in the sense we use 'boxer' and 'boxing' when when we characterise fighters i.e 'he's the boxer in this match', 'he might be powerful but will be able to cope with Jones' boxing'. However, I find the comment I highlighted to be problematic, as it implies that they were no longer engaging in a boxing match. Although it would be bizarre to suggest that punching is not the central component of the sport of boxing, clinching and wrestling of some form are also valid elements of the sport. Obviously there are limitations on this, hence you can't use your head or elbows, throw your opponent to the floor, or clinch excessively, but you couldn't have boxing without clinching and mauling and they have been a part of the sport since time immemorial. Kovalev winning the long range exchanges was something I didn't expect at all, and I'm looking forward to seeing if he can do it again in the rematch!

Good post and there was very definitely characterisation at play here. How often have we heard about Ward being a "master boxer"? And so when he started to stem the tide in round 7, there were some who decided he was being "masterful" when in fact, he was being a bit dirty and getting off with more left hooks.

A similar thing happened in the Floyd vs Maidana fight. Floyd was given far too much credit over the second half of that fight in my book (in some of the rounds, Maidana's whirling dervish routine pipped Mayweather's jabbing but wasn't scored as such - the idea that the master boxer has turned the tide had taken hold). At least Floyd had presence, though, and so I can understand that. Ward doesn't have that (or maybe he does?).

It was all part of the build up, Kovalev was the "puncher" and ward was the "boxer"

Sky were repeatidly harping on about Kovalev being a puncher and then made a side remark to the fact that he "can box as well"

Kovalev is an excellent boxer, I told anyone who would listen that

His footwork and jab are really something

Too true. The narrative had already been established: Kovalev would do well early but then Ward would figure him out with his "masterful boxing".

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 2:59 pm

He did kind of figure him out after a rough start. Regardless of the decision Ward finished the fresher man and would of won a 15 round fight. Kovalev was definitely fading towards the end. Granted he kept throwing, but not near as hard or precise as the previous rounds.

This is how I saw it.


Last edited by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : .)

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Post by hazharrison on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 3:02 pm

AdamT wrote:He did kind of figure him out after a rough start. Regardless of the decision Ward finished the better man and would of won a 15 round fight. Kovalev was definitely fading towards the end. Granted he kept throwing, but not near as hard or precise as the previous rounds.

This is how I saw it.

Kovalev finished stronger (he won the 10th and 12th - I also gave him the 11th but may have erred there). He hurt Ward in the final round to the body. I don't think you could tell who would have won rounds 13-15. It was that type of fight.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 3:03 pm

Not sure I'm happy with this Ward would have won a fifteen rounder assumption

We've never seen either in a fifteen rounder and sadly probably never will either

Echo the thought though, you can bring back fifteen rounders for championship bouts tomorrow far as I'm concerned

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 3:14 pm

Sergy's got that wirey frame also makes me think he's got good stamina

To be honest impossible to say who would have lasted better saw no signs of either fighter wilting

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 3:17 pm

haha just want to say this has turned into some debate

And for once its not

"This guy is an ATG"

"No he isn't"

Its actually about a fight and one that happened recently

+1 Karma for EVERYONE

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 3:23 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:haha just want to say this has turned into some debate

And for once its not

"This guy is an ATG"

"No he isn't"

Its actually about a fight and one that happened recently

+1 Karma for EVERYONE

It's a pity some posters couldn't keep their toys in their prams. I actually thought I debated ok. A bad reputation is ones downfall lol

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Post by Dylan1979 on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 3:27 pm

Look at the face of Ward post fight compared to Kov. Ward suffered alot more damage in this fight than Kov. 1-6 were all Kov. 7-12 were split.

There is a reason why the crowd booed once the scores were read out.


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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 3:29 pm

Dylan1979 wrote:Look at the face of Ward post fight compared to Kov. Ward suffered alot more damage in this fight than Kov. 1-6 were all Kov. 7-12 were split.

There is a reason why the crowd booed once the scores were read out.


Ok this a fair point. I think Diaz scored more strikes in his rematch with Conor, but the damage he had was shocking. The damage and knockdowns are what McGregor fans use to justify the win. Even though Diaz landed more shots.

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Post by JabMachineMK2 on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 3:31 pm

AdamT wrote:It's a pity some posters couldn't keep their toys in their prams. I actually thought I debated ok. A bad reputation is ones downfall lol

You're the one who acted like a moron when I asked you a simple question. Everyone else has moved on from the old jokes - you weren't even around, recycling jokes from other people? Toys in prams? Pull the other one kid.

Other people have no problem debating with me.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 3:32 pm

JabMachineMK2 wrote:
AdamT wrote:It's a pity some posters couldn't keep their toys in their prams. I actually thought I debated ok. A bad reputation is ones downfall lol

You're the one who acted like a moron when I asked you a simple question. Everyone else has moved on from the old jokes - you weren't even around, recycling jokes from other people? Toys in prams? Pull the other one kid.

Is the foe button broke??

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 3:34 pm

Jabmachine lighten up. I won't mention silly stuff again. You have my word.

Join in the debate, I will play nice and not be a bluebottle or whatever.

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Post by Dylan1979 on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 3:36 pm

Nobody has mentioned Roc Nation. Let's not forget the Hooker v Perez fight on the same card. Perez was robbed! Hooker, a Roc Nation figher was gifted that decision. It set the tone for things to come.

And people wonder why PPV numbers are down?

They are sick to death of blatant corruption in boxing.

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Post by JabMachineMK2 on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 3:36 pm

I thought I'd click "display this post" out of curiosity given that BF was handing out karma for good debate and noticed you couldn't resist one last dig. Given you are about 50% of this entire forums posts with your double posting and excitable nature I'd rather crap in my hands and clap than debate with you. I'll wait for someone who doesn't confess to being a troll.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 3:39 pm

JabMachineMK2 wrote:I thought I'd click "display this post" out of curiosity given that BF was handing out karma for good debate and noticed you couldn't resist one last dig. Given you are about 50% of this entire forums posts with your double posting and excitable nature I'd rather crap in my hands and clap than debate with you. I'll wait for someone who doesn't confess to being a troll.

Hit the foe button loser.




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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 3:41 pm

JabMachineMK2 wrote:I thought I'd click "display this post" out of curiosity given that BF was handing out karma for good debate and noticed you couldn't resist one last dig. Given you are about 50% of this entire forums posts with your double posting and excitable nature I'd rather crap in my hands and clap than debate with you. I'll wait for someone who doesn't confess to being a troll.

Also just want to point out, no matter how pathetic I am, or supposed to be, I have never claimed to be someone I am not.

A d1ckhead is better than a liar. I will take that any day. Tell Kell I was asking for him! Cool

Also I was around. I used to read this and the old bbc forum. It gave me a laugh!


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Post by Dylan1979 on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 5:26 pm

Factoring in the 2nd rd knock down, Kovalev would have taken the fight based on :

Total punches landed
Total punches thrown
Power punches landed
Power punches thrown
Accuracy of power punches or jabs thrown

Scoring based on jabs landed would have resulted in a draw.

The only metric that gives Ward a victory is accuracy, but he was only more accurate in throwing jabs on a round by round basis.

The judges gave every close round to the challenger instead of the champion, including the tenth which WAS NOT EVEN CLOSE!

(Stats all available on Compubox)

Numbers do not lie, judges however...

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 5:42 pm

I never like to use Compubox though, its proven to be awful

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Post by Atila on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 7:04 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:I never like to use Compubox though, its proven to be awful
It wouldn't surprise me at all if one day Compubox was used to score a title fight. After all, barring knockdowns, it is the amount of punches landed that wins a fighter a round.

All this stuff about making the other fighter miss, controlling the fight doesn't mean much unless you actually throw and land punches yourself.

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Post by milkyboy on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 7:38 pm

As we proved earlier in the thread, that I subconsciously score by counting punches i can only agree with you fella!

Seriously though, it doesn't allow for any assessment of quality of punch even if it were accurate.

I agree with your assessment though... for all this ring generalship malarkey the aim of the game is to hit without being hit, so all this controlling the fight,  dictating the pace, controlling distance etc is all ballcocks if you don't land more meaningful punches than the other guy.

As it goes, this fight was even on a round by round Compubox, and kovalev would win with the knockdown.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 8:43 pm

Yeah but punch quality matters and compubox counts punches that sometimes don't even land

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Post by Atila on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 8:50 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:Yeah but punch quality matters and compubox counts punches that sometimes don't even land
I know that quality matters but does one big left hook to the jaw cancel out ten jabs that hit you in the face?

Also, it news to me that Compubox counts punches that don't even land. Unless you mean that they count what they think are punches by mistake.

Don't get me wrong BF88, I don't want fights to be decided by Compubox, I'm just saying that it might happen one day.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 23 Nov 2016, 9:25 pm

Apparently compubox counted Mayweather shots that didn't land. Also it didn't count the shots Manny landed. Therefore Manny should of won.

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