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England v Argentina, 26 November

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Post by George Carlin Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:06 pm

England v Argentina, 26 November Englan10     England v Argentina, 26 November Mini_p10
ENGLAND v ARGENTINA
26 November 2016
14:30 GMT (UTC+0)
Twickenham Stadium, London

Live on Sky Sports 1

Referee: Pascal Gauzère (France)
Assistant Referees: Marius Mitrea (Italy), Ian Davies (Wales)
TMO: Gareth Simmonds (Wales)

A. Head to Head

19 Played 19
14 Won 4
1 Drawn 1
4 Lost 14
488 Points 282

B. Recent Form

9 November 2013
Twickenham, London
31 – 12 to England

15 June 2013
Estadio José Amalfitani, Buenos Aires
26 – 51 to England

8 June 2013
Estadio Padre Ernesto Martearena, Salta
3 – 32 to England

10 September 2011
Otago Stadium, Dunedin, New Zealand
13 – 9 to England

14 November 2009
Twickenham, London
16 – 9 to England

13 June 2009
Padre Ernesto Martearena, Salta
24 – 22 to Argentina

6 June 2009
Old Trafford, Manchester
37 – 15 to England

11 November 2006
Twickenham, London
18 – 25 to Argentina

C. Teams

ENGLAND 
England v Argentina, 26 November Bulldo10
15 Mike Brown, 14 Jonny May, 13 Jonathan Joseph, 12 Owen Farrell, 11 Elliot Daly, 10 George Ford, 9 Ben Youngs, 8 Billy Vunipola, 7 Tom Wood, 6 Chris Robshaw, 5 George Kruis, 4 Courtney Lawes, 3 Dan Cole, 2 Dylan Hartley (c), 1 Mako Vunipola

Replacements: 16 Jamie George, 17 Joe Marler, 18 Kyle Sinckler, 19 Charlie Ewels, 20 Teimana Harrison,, 21 Danny Care, 22 Ben Te’o, 23 Henry Slade

ARGENTINA
England v Argentina, 26 November Puma11
15 Joaquín Tuculet, 14 Matías Orlando, 13 Matías Moroni, 12 Santiago González Iglesias, 11 Santiago Cordero, 10 Juan Martín Hernández, 9 Tomás Cubelli, 8 Leonardo Senatore, 7 Javier Ortega Desio, 6 Pablo Matera, 5 Matías Alemanno, 4 Guido Petti, 3 Ramiro Herrera, 2 Agustín Creevy (c), 1 Lucas Noguera

Replacements: 16 Julián Montoya, 17 Santiago García Botta, 18 Enrique Pieretto, 19 Facundo Isa, 20 Tomas Lezana, 21 Martin Landajo, 22 Jerónimo De la Fuente, 23 Juan Pablo Estelles


Last edited by George Carlin on Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:23 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:17 pm

Well it starts with Launchbury missing the rest of the AIs through suspension which is a big blow. Let's hope Kruis can recapture his form from the 6Ns.

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Post by doctor_grey Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:46 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well it starts with Launchbury missing the rest of the AIs through suspension which is a big blow. Let's hope Kruis can recapture his form from the 6Ns.
Not a good way to start. One thing we can count on Argentina is to have a good set piece. So who partners with Lawes?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:24 pm

Is he banned? Ah man that's harsh! And he has been very good as well. A big loss in my opinion.

I don't like the idea of rushing Kruis back in. Let him recover properly. Surely we have another lock who can come in. Attwood, Kitchener, Slater, Barrow??

Ewells is in the squad also.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:31 pm

Whover i fittest out of Kruis an Attwood with the other on the bench.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:34 pm

I just don't like the idea of Kruis being rushed straight back in after an operation when lock is a strong position of ours.

Go with Lawes and Attwood...the combo a few years ago we thought was going to be our combo for the next 10 years.....

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:35 pm

And Roko or May?
JJ or Daly?
Brown or Goode?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:02 pm

Attwood is also coming back from injury so swings and roundabouts. And May and Rokoduguni, Daly and Slade on the bench. Brown.

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Post by doctor_grey Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:12 pm

For the back three, pick the best catching kicks in heavy traffic. Argentina will launch more bombs against England on Saturday than they did in the whole Falklands War.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:19 pm

Slightly bad taste? But it would still be Brown, May and Rokoduguni.

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Post by doctor_grey Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:24 pm

If that is the best group catching kicks, then so be it. I have no problem with Roko.........

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:25 pm

Ah my mistake I didn't realise Attwood had been carrying an injury aswell.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:59 pm

Attwood is back

Nowell also back training

And Kruis


If we go that way, (countering te high ball), Brown, Nowell, May is best but I'd go Goode (see if he can hack it, last chance), May, Roko and give Quins back Brown
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Post by king_carlos Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:28 am

1.Marler
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Attwood
5.Lawes
6.Robshaw (left)
7.Hughes (right)
8.Vunipola

9.Youngs
10.Ford

11.May
12.Farrell
13.Daly
14.Roko
15.Brown

16.George
17.Mako (rotate where we have strength in depth)
18.Sinckler
19.Kruis
20.Harrison
21.Care
22.Slade
23.Joseph

That's what I'd go for. Mako has continued his good form but I'd like to see how Marler goes with a start and give Mako a break before the Oz game. Joseph on the bench is tough but I think Daly has played really well and deserves to start again.

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Post by George Carlin Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:42 am

Come on England. Administer a good old fashioned Christmas stuffing and Scotland will be in the second pool of seeds for the RWC draw in May. kiss
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Post by mid_gen Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:43 am

I've been impressed with Daly in an England shirt, I think he deserves to start at the moment. Smart player, really like to see attackers turning players inside out instead of just going into contact, his try was lovely.

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Post by Gooseberry Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:12 am

I think Daly pretty much has a medium term spot in the 23 sewn up ...even if its as the dreaded utility back.

Where he settles in long term may well be dictated by injuries to others and Browns ability to keep up post 30, but hes a fine option to have around for sure.

England are looking pretty blessed in the 3/4's all of a sudden. Indeed theres no position where they dont have two or more strong contenders for a starting shirt, except I guess full back.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:27 am

I do not like the sound of Kruis starting on the back of no matches for several weeks, so guess we have to trust Ewells to do the job.

Not sure I expect a huge amount of high balls from Argentina, they seem to have evolved their game appreciably from the style that served so well in RWC2007. Impact of playing in the 4Ns I guess, but they seem to try and play a very high tempo game with a large number of offloads.

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Post by beshocked Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:42 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:I just don't like the idea of Kruis being rushed straight back in after an operation when lock is a strong position of ours.

Go with Lawes and Attwood...the combo a few years ago we thought was going to be our combo for the next 10 years.....

Really? You thought Attwood would be in the England team for the next 10 years?

I still think he's a player who hasn't been able to fully utilise his bulk. Was treading water till superior locks came along.

Though saying that Jones has managed to get Haskell using his brawn so maybe he can get similar from Attwood?


Lawes has had remarkable staying power in that 2nd row - 51 caps and he's 27 years old. Despite the emergence of the likes of Launchbury,Itoje and Kruis he's there again starting for England.

I think the U20s and academies don't get enough credit for their work. England are in a much stronger position compared to the post 2003 slump because of them.

England should be emerging as a challenger to NZ at senior level because England challenge NZ at U20s level now.

I'd rather not go over old ground - done it too many times so Whose a player you are most excited to see in the future? Who do you think will emerge?

I might be wrong but I think Nick Isiekwe looks like a promising player who might follow in the footsteps of other 2nd rows. I am looking further along the line. Maybe in 2-3 years.

I still have high hopes for Nick Tompkins but sometimes, youngsters just need a run of game time. Only 21 so his time might well come.

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Post by BamBam Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:44 am

What clubs do those 2 youngsters play for beshocked? I've not seen anything of them?

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Post by beshocked Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:48 am

You know who they play for. Wink

Tompkins scored a nice try vs the Scarlets in the ERCC. Isiekwe is in the U20s now.

Of course I have high hopes for Harry Mallinder too but he's in an underperforming Saints side.

Will be interesting to see who emerges as a bolter in the next few seasons.


Matt Ksevic seems to be the forgotten man of English rugby. He seems to be doomed to be not picked.

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Post by tazfalklands Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:31 am

George Carlin wrote:Come on England. Administer a good old fashioned Christmas stuffing and Scotland will be in the second pool of seeds for the RWC draw in May. kiss

Unfortunately England Have nearly 10 ranking points on Argentina so there are no changes for a win, but that isn't any reason not to hand the Argies a spanking (Please!)

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Post by George Carlin Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:03 pm

beshocked wrote:You know who they play for. Wink

Tompkins scored a nice try vs the Scarlets in the ERCC. Isiekwe is in the U20s now.

Of course I have high hopes for Harry Mallinder too but he's in an underperforming Saints side.

Will be interesting to see who emerges as a bolter in the next few seasons.


Matt Ksevic seems to be the forgotten man of English rugby. He seems to be doomed to be not picked.
Matt Kvesic seems very much to be the Matt LeTissier of the England (rugby) set-up.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:04 pm

Lazy and fat?

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:31 pm

beshocked wrote:You know who they play for. Wink

Tompkins scored a nice try vs the Scarlets in the ERCC. Isiekwe is in the U20s now.

Of course I have high hopes for Harry Mallinder too but he's in an underperforming Saints side.

Will be interesting to see who emerges as a bolter in the next few seasons.


Matt Ksevic seems to be the forgotten man of English rugby. He seems to be doomed to be not picked.

Mallinder is out with a problimatic ankle, after surgery he is out until the new year at least.

Saints do have a monster of a second row coming through, 2.07m and 123kg and only just turned 20. Came through the England U18, but didn't seem to make the U20s. Whatch out for the name Alex Moon.
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Post by HongKongCherry Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:53 pm

Kvesic can't get a start for Glaws, so he stands no chance with England. The suggestion is that with the rule changes he's become a penalty machine in training, hence his constant bench warming and he is living up to this slightly when he malkes an appearance by giving away some silly penalties. I think this year will be a right off for him, but hopefully the move to Exeter will re-invigorate him and he'll get the recognition that his form from the last 2 seasons so richly deserved.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:58 pm

beshocked wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I just don't like the idea of Kruis being rushed straight back in after an operation when lock is a strong position of ours.

Go with Lawes and Attwood...the combo a few years ago we thought was going to be our combo for the next 10 years.....

Really? You thought Attwood would be in the England team for the next 10 years?

.

When they both first came on the scene...we ALL thought they would be the combo to take us on for the next ten years potentially. Attwood the physical man and Lawes the athlete.

Im sure if I go back through the threads ill find everyone gushing over them.

Just shows that potential can be lost of achieved!

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:02 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:Kvesic can't get a start for Glaws, so he stands no chance with England.  The suggestion is that with the rule changes he's become a penalty machine in training, hence his constant bench warming and he is living up to this slightly when he malkes an appearance by giving away some silly penalties.  I think this year will be a right off for him, but hopefully the move to Exeter will re-invigorate him and he'll get the recognition that his form from the last 2 seasons so richly deserved.

Or with the continued development of Clifford, Harrison, Chisholm, Hughes, Sam Jones etc etc he wont get a look in!

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Post by beshocked Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:51 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
beshocked wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I just don't like the idea of Kruis being rushed straight back in after an operation when lock is a strong position of ours.

Go with Lawes and Attwood...the combo a few years ago we thought was going to be our combo for the next 10 years.....

Really? You thought Attwood would be in the England team for the next 10 years?

.

When they both first came on the scene...we ALL thought they would be the combo to take us on for the next ten years potentially. Attwood the physical man and Lawes the athlete.

Im sure if I go back through the threads ill find everyone gushing over them.

Just shows that potential can be lost of achieved!

Speak for yourself perhaps. I've always thought that Attwood was a bit overrated. Just didn't see enough of Attwood the physical man. Still haven't seen enough.

You can be big and tall but need to use that bulk well.

Plus being big means you rely on your size instead of developing the rest of your game.

This is especially something that can affect youngsters.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:27 pm

beshocked wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
beshocked wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I just don't like the idea of Kruis being rushed straight back in after an operation when lock is a strong position of ours.

Go with Lawes and Attwood...the combo a few years ago we thought was going to be our combo for the next 10 years.....

Really? You thought Attwood would be in the England team for the next 10 years?

.

When they both first came on the scene...we ALL thought they would be the combo to take us on for the next ten years potentially. Attwood the physical man and Lawes the athlete.

Im sure if I go back through the threads ill find everyone gushing over them.

Just shows that potential can be lost of achieved!

Speak for yourself perhaps.

Nope speaking for most actually....but I really cant be a$$ed to go back through all the archives.

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Post by LondonTiger Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:31 pm

You would need to go back 6 years or so. When MJ first took Attwood to Australia, then when Lawes was first selected for the AIs that followed most felt they could become mainstays of the team. With 50 caps since then Lawes has fulfilled that potential - even if the emergence of Itoje has dulled our enthusiasm for the Saint, but Attwood has never quite lived up to that early potential.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:36 pm

Absolutely spot on LT

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Post by HongKongCherry Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:38 pm

Ever since Attwood left Glaws I've thought he's rubbish Wink

His early promise showed he had the potential to be an outstanding international, sadly through ill-discipline, injury and arguably being overweight he has failed to fulfill his potential. The last 2 years, outside of injury, he has started to show some good form again, but the role of a lock has changed and less teams need the enforcer.
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Post by uncle_nigel Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:42 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
beshocked wrote:You know who they play for. Wink

Tompkins scored a nice try vs the Scarlets in the ERCC. Isiekwe is in the U20s now.

Of course I have high hopes for Harry Mallinder too but he's in an underperforming Saints side.

Will be interesting to see who emerges as a bolter in the next few seasons.


Matt Ksevic seems to be the forgotten man of English rugby. He seems to be doomed to be not picked.

Mallinder is out with a problimatic ankle, after surgery he is out until the new year at least.

Saints do have a monster of a second row coming through, 2.07m and 123kg and only just turned 20. Came through the England U18, but didn't seem to make the U20s. Whatch out for the name Alex Moon.

Does he have a Welsh granny?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:22 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:Ever since Attwood left Glaws I've thought he's rubbish Wink

His early promise showed he had the potential to be an outstanding international, sadly through ill-discipline, injury and arguably being overweight he has failed to fulfill his potential. The last 2 years, outside of injury, he has started to show some good form again, but the role of a lock has changed and less teams need the enforcer.

Absolutely...massive locks aren't the call of the day.

6'5 - 6'6 mobile backrow style locks are seemingly the way forward. Itoje, Brad Thorn etc.

That's why im very disappointed we've lost Launchbury as I rate him so highly.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:38 pm

With Liam Williams off to Saracens you'd imagine Goodes ship really is sailing. Could Farrell be off with McCall moving Goode to 10?

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Post by ChequeredJersey Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:50 pm

beshocked wrote:You know who they play for. Wink

Tompkins scored a nice try vs the Scarlets in the ERCC. Isiekwe is in the U20s now.

Of course I have high hopes for Harry Mallinder too but he's in an underperforming Saints side.

Will be interesting to see who emerges as a bolter in the next few seasons.


Matt Ksevic seems to be the forgotten man of English rugby. He seems to be doomed to be not picked.

Tompkins is nearly there. With Daly and JJ, then injured Manu as a possibility, Slade at 13 and then Marchant and Tompkins as young pretenders, 13 is a position of strength, like lock.

Think we have to try to make Slade a 12 alongside Mallinder as 12 still is not. Farrell is doing well there, but if Ford get injured or goes to France, then Farrell is the next 10 (though I would not be overly upset with Burns or Cips at 10 with Farrell at 12)
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Post by ChequeredJersey Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:50 pm

Or LOzowski at 10 a bit later on
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Post by ChequeredJersey Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:52 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:With Liam Williams off to Saracens you'd imagine Goodes ship really is sailing. Could Farrell be off with McCall moving Goode to 10?

Think Goode, struggling to start for England, more likely to be off than Farrell, if he doesn't take Brown's shirt for Australia, I could see why he'd consider a move to France and wouldn't hold it against him. Would excel for several French set ups
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Post by ChequeredJersey Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:54 pm

HongKongCherry wrote:Kvesic can't get a start for Glaws, so he stands no chance with England.  The suggestion is that with the rule changes he's become a penalty machine in training, hence his constant bench warming and he is living up to this slightly when he malkes an appearance by giving away some silly penalties.  I think this year will be a right off for him, but hopefully the move to Exeter will re-invigorate him and he'll get the recognition that his form from the last 2 seasons so richly deserved.


Looking forward to how he plays with Ewers/Armand/Waldrom

Also looking forward to seeing if Fearns power and graft can help improve Morgan's play at Gloucester. Would Rowan be your 7?
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Post by Poorfour Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:01 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Or LOzowski at 10 a bit later on

And Theo Brophy-Clews a little after that.

Tim Swiel (EQP through his mother) is starting to look good at Quins, too. Need to see if he can sustain it over a season but could be an outside bet for honours longer term.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:09 pm

Roko and Goode left out.

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Post by stub Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:21 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Roko and Goode left out.

Jones seems to know what he wants.

I'm happy enough with Brown and May..

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Post by little_badger Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:41 pm

Retained:

Forwards (14)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), George Kruis (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints).

Backs (10)
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Big compliment to Daly there providing he starts on the wing, that he needs to be included in the team, even if out of position.

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Post by HongKongCherry Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:47 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Also looking forward to seeing if Fearns power and graft can help improve Morgan's play at Gloucester. Would Rowan be your 7?

I'm not convinced Fearns will improve Morgan, as he hasn't improved with Moriarty playing so well. Rowan has been our 7 so far and I'd expect him to continue, unless we want to field a monster back row with Fearns at 7! I do wonder if Fearns fits Jones' view of a 7 in the style of Haskell?
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Post by doctor_grey Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:50 pm

According the an article on the BBC, there are only 24 in the game day roster. Only one to leave out. And there are three locks: Ewels, Lawes, Kruis.

Can Eddie bring in someone else at this juncture if Kruis fails a late fitness test? Or you think he would have Wood as cover for the second row?

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Post by ChequeredJersey Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:31 am

Hope we don't need a reserve and use Wood or Robshaw if utterly necessary? :/
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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:31 am

Poorfour wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:Or LOzowski at 10 a bit later on

And Theo Brophy-Clews a little after that.

Tim Swiel (EQP through his mother) is starting to look good at Quins,  too. Need to see if he can sustain it over a season but could be an outside bet for honours longer term.

I had hoped to include Willis and Connon from us in that list for the future, but sadly Dean Richards doesn't know his a$$ from his elbow!!

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England v Argentina, 26 November Empty Re: England v Argentina, 26 November

Post by GeordieFalcon Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:34 am

HongKongCherry wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:

Also looking forward to seeing if Fearns power and graft can help improve Morgan's play at Gloucester. Would Rowan be your 7?

I'm not convinced Fearns will improve Morgan, as he hasn't improved with Moriarty playing so well. Rowan has been our 7 so far and I'd expect him to continue, unless we want to field a monster back row with Fearns at 7! I do wonder if Fearns fits Jones' view of a 7 in the style of Haskell?

If he plays to the level we know he can and the physicality then there is little doubt he would be on the radar. Hes a wrecking ball when in full flow...

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Post by lostinwales Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:23 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:Hope we don't need a reserve and use Wood or Robshaw if utterly necessary? :/

Hughes has done a few shifts playing at lock

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