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Wards Legacy!

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Post by AdamT on Thu 24 Nov 2016, 9:15 am

First topic message reminder :

http://www.boxingnews24.com/2016/11/andre-ward-can-surpass-mayweathers-pacquiaos-legacy/#more-221864

I normally go on boxing 24 for a laugh and thought no way can he surpass these guys. But the further I read into the article, the more I started to agree.

Light Heavyweight is becoming a very tough division. If Ward can somehow beat them all and cap it off with a win against GGG, he would be HUGE!

Now I am not saying Ward can do this. Perhaps Kovalev will knock his block off next. Who knows?

But if he finished his career in that style, he would be something else.

Ward is not a great puncher, so I can't imagine many ducking him. Lets just hope if his star grows, he doesn't do the high risk low reward road like Floyd and Manny. That is always a danger.

On the flipside, read the article and imagine Kovalev wins the rematch and takes out all comers. He won't have dominated 2 divisions, but he would be one of the most dominating light heavies ever. At least in the last 20-30 years.

There is no malice in this thread and I'm happy to discuss it with anyone. though a bit of banter is more than welcome. I won't wind anyone up.


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Post by Dylan1979 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:55 am

Back to the topic - Wards legacy.

Andre 'No Concessions' Ward does not have one.

simple.

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 9:06 am

Back to the topic, he has as much of a legacy as Floyd and Manny 'we'll pick who we want' have.

someones just had their balls stamped on as they don't know the rules Wink

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Post by 88Chris05 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 9:49 am

I don't think anyone could say with a straight face that Ward has no legacy of any kind. He gatecrashed most people's pound for pound lists five years ago by doing a number on Froch, not an easy thing to do, and is still there now, albeit there have been irksome spells of inactivity and tune ups in there. Like him or not, no fighter who can boast that is going to be totally airbrushed out of history. He's accumulated a win list featuring some excellent names, and only one of them has been up for debate.

I think we need to be careful not to go overboard in reacting to Ward's performance the other week. It wasn't great, or the kind of performance befitting a (potential)  pound for pound number one, but you've got to allow fighters the odd less-than-virtuoso performance every now a d then, no matter how good they are. Even in recent times where top fighters have only been fighting 2, maybe 3 times a year with plenty of tape of their opponents to study, we've seen Mayweather only just and controversially scrape by Castillo, Jones Jr. have a hard time against Griffin before the DQ, Golovkin going life and death with Ouma etc. At least in Ward's case you can say he had to face by far and a way the most dangerous opponent of his career before being 'exposed' as well, which ain't really the case for the other guys I've mentioned.

As fans we're regularly exasperated by top fighters avoiding each other, and we're starved of really significant super-fights. In a strange way I think this encourages us to obsess a little too much over one-off fights and makes our frustrations at another very rare 'big' fight failing to deliver the shot in the arm the sport needs boiler over, hence why we're now seeing an excessive backlash against Ward, not just over this result - where of course there is room for backlash - but over his whole career, his style, his rating in the sport etc. There are fair enough criticisms of Ward's career in some respects, eg. his lack of 'away' fights, but he's no different to a wave of other top Americans in that respect, and before the Kovalev fight there hasn't been anything to suggest that his career record would have looked any different at all had his fights taken place elsewhere.

Ward has a legacy. It's just a matter of how it'll look by the time he's done. He could convincingly beat Sergey in a rematch before cleaning up Stevenson and Beterbiev, then add a safety-first points win over a Cruiserweight titles and bow out as an all-time great. Maybe he'll get flattened by Sergey in a return and remain in that all-time very good bracket where he probably still is at the moment. Maybe he'll fall somewhere in the middle of all that.

But whatever happens, history should, and I think will, judge him as a top class fighter whose achievements are pretty damn impressive.
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Post by AdamT on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 9:54 am

A good post that will go wasted on here. The people have mad their minds up on Ward.

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 10:04 am

It won't Adam, Chris and Rowls are both well respected (I think) on here and most of us will read their stuff with an open mind with a view to learning something (I do anyway).

for some reason the Kov fight seems to have stirred up some really bad blood, me personally have just been taking the mick and having a laugh (i've said it before but it's one point, not a shutout).

Chris said it miles better than me, go read that :-)

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Post by AdamT on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 10:08 am

Derbymanc wrote:It won't Adam, Chris and Rowls are both well respected (I think) on here and most of us will read their stuff with an open mind with a view to learning something (I do anyway).

for some reason the Kov fight seems to have stirred up some really bad blood, me personally have just been taking the mick and having a laugh (i've said it before but it's one point, not a shutout).

Chris said it miles better than me, go read that :-)

I was meaning Dylan and Boxingfan88. They don't rate Ward as a boxer!

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 10:13 am

BF will really (c'mon you know you do). I think dyl's just on a mission to wind up (we all do it sometimes). Think he's taken over from me in the let's trash Wards legacy stakes :-)

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Post by milkyboy on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 10:15 am

His legacy will be judged after retirement. He'll split opinions even then, because of his style and spoiling reputation, a la bhop. He struggled with kovalev's reach and jab. No shame in that and he found a way to nullify it, which is a sign of greatness... however, he had to make it ugly to do so. Which may end up being ward's legacy. Ugly great. We'll have to wait and see.


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Post by Dylan1979 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:54 am

Derbymanc wrote:Back to the topic, he has as much of a legacy as Floyd and Manny 'we'll pick who we want' have.

someones just had their balls stamped on as they don't know the rules Wink

At least Floyd and Manny were never afraid to go on the road as a pro.

Ward? Nah, he will never do that cuz a ref in another country will not let him get away with constant fouling.

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:56 am

You do realise that yankee land isn't like Britain where everythings next to each other and i'm pretty sure he was on the road as an unbeaten amateur since 12.

I'm pretty sure as well that some people said the same about Floyd and fouling too Wink

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:04 pm

Dylan1979 wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Back to the topic, he has as much of a legacy as Floyd and Manny 'we'll pick who we want' have.

someones just had their balls stamped on as they don't know the rules Wink

At least Floyd and Manny were never afraid to go on the road as a pro.

Ward? Nah, he will never do that cuz a ref in another country will not let him get away with constant fouling.

Ward has fought abroad more times than Mayweather has, do you make it up as you go along?

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Post by Dylan1979 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:05 pm

Jeez, you guys take everything seriously.

He has some legacy but do not disrespect true ATG's like Floyd & Manny by putting Ward in their category.

America craves one of their own in and around the top spots of P4P.
With Floyd gone, they want to keep Ward up there. How do you think he stayed in the top 5 post Froch to Pre Kov with such little activity? The fights he did have during that time were against B- level fighters at best (I'm being generous)

At Ring magazine, there are a couple of voters who vote for Ward no matter what, even when he went a year without fighting.

Step out of the box that the mainstream media has you locked into, only then will you see the game for what it is.




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Post by Dylan1979 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:06 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Dylan1979 wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Back to the topic, he has as much of a legacy as Floyd and Manny 'we'll pick who we want' have.

someones just had their balls stamped on as they don't know the rules Wink

At least Floyd and Manny were never afraid to go on the road as a pro.

Ward? Nah, he will never do that cuz a ref in another country will not let him get away with constant fouling.

Ward has fought abroad more times than Mayweather has, do you make it up as you go along?

As a pro against top level fighters?
GTFOH!!!!

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Post by milkyboy on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:06 pm

Dylan1979 wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Back to the topic, he has as much of a legacy as Floyd and Manny 'we'll pick who we want' have.

someones just had their balls stamped on as they don't know the rules Wink

At least Floyd and Manny were never afraid to go on the road as a pro.

Ward? Nah, he will never do that cuz a ref in another country will not let him get away with constant fouling.

yep floyd was always prepared to get in his limo and head downtown to the mgm grand. No walking for floyd, that's why they called him the road warrior.

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Post by Dylan1979 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:07 pm

Dylan1979 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Dylan1979 wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Back to the topic, he has as much of a legacy as Floyd and Manny 'we'll pick who we want' have.

someones just had their balls stamped on as they don't know the rules Wink

At least Floyd and Manny were never afraid to go on the road as a pro.

Ward? Nah, he will never do that cuz a ref in another country will not let him get away with constant fouling.

Ward has fought abroad more times than Mayweather has, do you make it up as you go along?

As a pro against top level fighters?
GTFOH!!!!

Tell me who? Who did he fight outside of America as a pro?
Any top 10 ranked guys?

HELL NO!!!

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:10 pm

Now you're moving the goalposts because you've yet again been proven wrong, getting to be a habit for you.

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Post by Dylan1979 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:11 pm

milkyboy wrote:
Dylan1979 wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Back to the topic, he has as much of a legacy as Floyd and Manny 'we'll pick who we want' have.

someones just had their balls stamped on as they don't know the rules Wink

At least Floyd and Manny were never afraid to go on the road as a pro.

Ward? Nah, he will never do that cuz a ref in another country will not let him get away with constant fouling.

yep floyd was always prepared to get in his limo and head downtown to the mgm grand. No walking for floyd, that's why they called him the road warrior.

Floyd came to England for Hatton - Fact

Name me one guy Ward has fought outside of America as a pro who was a top 10 ranked fighter at the time they fought?

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Post by milkyboy on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:13 pm

Dylan1979 wrote:
milkyboy wrote:
Dylan1979 wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Back to the topic, he has as much of a legacy as Floyd and Manny 'we'll pick who we want' have.

someones just had their balls stamped on as they don't know the rules Wink

At least Floyd and Manny were never afraid to go on the road as a pro.

Ward? Nah, he will never do that cuz a ref in another country will not let him get away with constant fouling.

yep floyd was always prepared to get in his limo and head downtown to the mgm grand. No walking for floyd, that's why they called him the road warrior.

Floyd came to England for Hatton - Fact

Name me one guy Ward has fought outside of America as a pro who was a top 10 ranked fighter at the time they fought?

I think dylan is having a bit of fun with everyone. He got bored of smoking weed with ermintrude and zebedee, and decided to entertain us on here instead.

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Post by Dylan1979 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:14 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Now you're moving the goalposts because you've yet again been proven wrong, getting to be a habit for you.

FFS

You can't answer the question because he has NEVER done it

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 12:16 pm

I don't need answer the question Dylan, you lack the intellect to be a particularly good troll, Davidemore would be my guess.

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Post by milkyboy on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 1:14 pm

Dylan1979 wrote:

Floyd came to England for Hatton - Fact

I like the idea that travelling for a press tour makes you a road warrior, irrespective of where the fight takes place. I think that's a level up on emore. Not touching waingro's 'wlad is vitali's brother' level. But then what could. Credit where it's due, regardless.

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Post by 88Chris05 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 1:22 pm

Seeing as Ward was a guest pundit for Sky at ringside in the Froch-Kessler rematch, does that mean he travelled for both Carl and Mikel? It's confusing stuff!
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Post by AdamT on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 1:32 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GC_IvbzOL8

Can't be bothered to start a new thread. I had never seen this fight, but Chris's post intrigued me.

GGG has improved, but he didn't look like superman. Now I didn't post this video to give him a kicking. On the contrary, he was f....g possessed in this fight. Yes he struggled and didn't move his head much. But the c**ts head is made of Iron and he never stopped punching. Actually a very enjoyable fight.

For anyone that hasn't seen it, enjoy.

Now I'm in no means going to become a fanboy, but GGG is a tough f...er!!

Good watch and GGG's power shone through in the end.


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Post by BoxingFan88 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 1:48 pm

88Chris05 wrote:Seeing as Ward was a guest pundit for Sky at ringside in the Froch-Kessler rematch, does that mean he travelled for both Carl and Mikel? It's confusing stuff!

Haha

As much as I agree with what Dylan has said, Floyd never travelled for Hatton

And yes Ward was at Froch vs Kessler II doing commentary for HBO

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 1:53 pm

88Chris05 wrote:I don't think anyone could say with a straight face that Ward has no legacy of any kind. He gatecrashed most people's pound for pound lists five years ago by doing a number on Froch, not an easy thing to do, and is still there now, albeit there have been irksome spells of inactivity and tune ups in there. Like him or not, no fighter who can boast that is going to be totally airbrushed out of history. He's accumulated a win list featuring some excellent names, and only one of them has been up for debate.

I think we need to be careful not to go overboard in reacting to Ward's performance the other week. It wasn't great, or the kind of performance befitting a (potential)  pound for pound number one, but you've got to allow fighters the odd less-than-virtuoso performance every now a d then, no matter how good they are. Even in recent times where top fighters have only been fighting 2, maybe 3 times a year with plenty of tape of their opponents to study, we've seen Mayweather only just and controversially scrape by Castillo, Jones Jr. have a hard time against Griffin before the DQ, Golovkin going life and death with Ouma etc. At least in Ward's case you can say he had to face by far and a way the most dangerous opponent of his career before being 'exposed' as well, which ain't really the case for the other guys I've mentioned.

As fans we're regularly exasperated by top fighters avoiding each other, and we're starved of really significant super-fights. In a strange way I think this encourages us to obsess a little too much over one-off fights and makes our frustrations at another very rare 'big' fight failing to deliver the shot in the arm the sport needs boiler over, hence why we're now seeing an excessive backlash against Ward, not just over this result - where of course there is room for backlash - but over his whole career, his style, his rating in the sport etc. There are fair enough criticisms of Ward's career in some respects, eg. his lack of 'away' fights, but he's no different to a wave of other top Americans in that respect, and before the Kovalev fight there hasn't been anything to suggest that his career record would have looked any different at all had his fights taken place elsewhere.

Ward has a legacy. It's just a matter of how it'll look by the time he's done. He could convincingly beat Sergey in a rematch before cleaning up Stevenson and Beterbiev, then add a safety-first points win over a Cruiserweight titles and bow out as an all-time great. Maybe he'll get flattened by Sergey in a return and remain in that all-time very good bracket where he probably still is at the moment. Maybe he'll fall somewhere in the middle of all that.

But whatever happens, history should, and I think will, judge him as a top class fighter whose achievements are pretty damn impressive.

If he convincingly beats Kovalev without fouling then absolutely he does, but I don't think he can

There is a lot of evidence that his career could have turned out differently had he not had the officials on his side

Did you not see the Kessler fight?

5 accidental headbutts, oh come on! They were not accidental, could he have beaten Kessler without fouling? Probably, the point is he didn't

You cannot tell me with a straight face that they were "accidental" he also pretty much retired Kessler after that, his eye was never ever the same

Even the biased Showtime commentators called him out on it

And yes GGG looked less than stellar against Ouma, but at least he stayed within the rules

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Post by milkyboy on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 2:17 pm

88Chris05 wrote:Seeing as Ward was a guest pundit for Sky at ringside in the Froch-Kessler rematch, does that mean he travelled for both Carl and Mikel? It's confusing stuff!

Just another example of Ward trying to cheat the system, a 2 for 1 commentary gig hardly compares to an arduous press tour

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Post by 88Chris05 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 2:59 pm

I've said before, BF88: Ward should have had at least a point deduction against Kessler. But he was kicking Kessler's backside right from the very first bell and was miles ahead before the head clashes and cuts even occurred. I don't take the glib view that he'd have definitely been disqualified elsewhere, and definitely don't go along with the idea that Kessler might have had a chance without the cuts. He was comprehensively outclassed.

Would Mayweather have survived round two against Mosley had he not held and stopped Mosley from freeing up his right hand to buy himself a few vital seconds after being rocked? I think he would, but some might still ask the question. Fact is, there's a referee in there to enforce the rules and decide how long the fighters have to punch their way out of the clinches before he breaks them. Countless great fighters have utilised the dark arts to varying degrees. Nobody has to like it, but it is a part of the game.
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Post by AdamT on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 3:09 pm

.


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Post by BoxingFan88 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 3:12 pm

88Chris05 wrote:I've said before, BF88: Ward should have had at least a point deduction against Kessler. But he was kicking Kessler's backside right from the very first bell and was miles ahead before the head clashes and cuts even occurred. I don't take the glib view that he'd have definitely been disqualified elsewhere, and definitely don't go along with the idea that Kessler might have had a chance without the cuts. He was comprehensively outclassed.

Would Mayweather have survived round two against Mosley had he not held and stopped Mosley from freeing up his right hand to buy himself a few vital seconds after being rocked? I think he would, but some might still ask the question. Fact is, there's a referee in there to enforce the rules and decide how long the fighters have to punch their way out of the clinches before he breaks them. Countless great fighters have utilised the dark arts to varying degrees. Nobody has to like it, but it is a part of the game.

Holding to survive is allowed, excessive clinching is not, Ward is hitting and holding, which is something else entirely

I believe he would have won anyway, how can we call him great when he relies on dirty tactics and shockingly dirty tactics to win. Which is my point, his great atheltic skills are masking all the cheating he does

That last headbutt was absolutely ridiculous its basis for a DQ right there and then, its as blatant as you are ever going to see, he tried the same move with Kovalev multiple times but Kovalev was prepared for it

Had he not been that fight would not have made it to round 4


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Post by AdamT on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 3:14 pm

Not a fan of Ward then are you?

I hope it never comes out that Floyd or Manny were injecting PEDS (IMO they were) BF88. If that were the case you would have to brand them cheats as well.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 3:15 pm

AdamT wrote:Not a fan of Ward then are you?

I hope it never comes out that Floyd or Manny were injecting PEDS (IMO they were) BF88. If that were the case you would have to brand them cheats as well.


Everyone is cheating using PEDs, it already happens (at least the large majority)

Unlike most people I like Ward's personality everytime I hear him in interviews I like listening to him

But seeing what he did in that ring is unforgivable

So yes, I don't like him anymore

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Post by AdamT on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 3:16 pm

Yeah dirty druggy c..ts!!

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 3:28 pm

AdamT wrote:Yeah dirty druggy c..ts!!

lol

Testing hasn't caught up with the science

Probably never will

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Post by AdamT on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 3:29 pm

Floyd and Manny are definitely clean, that's all that matters! Cool

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 3:38 pm

AdamT wrote:Floyd and Manny are definitely clean, that's all that matters! Cool

Well according to the testing program, which is all we have to go on

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Post by AdamT on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 3:39 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:
AdamT wrote:Floyd and Manny are definitely clean, that's all that matters! Cool

Well according to the testing program, which is all we have to go on

Floyd has question marks over his tests!

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 4:05 pm

AdamT wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:
AdamT wrote:Floyd and Manny are definitely clean, that's all that matters! Cool

Well according to the testing program, which is all we have to go on

Floyd has question marks over his tests!

Haven't really read into it so can't really comment

I heard about the IV drip, but don't know much more than that

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Post by AdamT on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 4:05 pm

He used an illegal IV and it wasn't for hydrating.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 4:14 pm

As well as one of it's finest practitioners one of boxing's greatest conmen no doubt

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 10:33 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:As well as one of it's finest practitioners one of boxing's greatest conmen no doubt

Who Floyd?

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 11:38 pm

Floyd

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 30 Nov 2016, 8:33 am

Floyd postpones the Pacquaio fight over some seemingly righteous stance on peds and all along was using illegal drips to mask his own ped use..

We know about the lidocaine so he must have been buzzing on a cocktail of substances going into his fights

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Post by AdamT on Wed 30 Nov 2016, 9:22 am

Herman Jaeger wrote:Floyd postpones the Pacquaio fight over some seemingly righteous stance on peds and all along was using illegal drips to mask his own ped use..

We know about the lidocaine so he must have been buzzing on a cocktail of substances going into his fights

He postponed the fight the first time due to possible drug use. To be fair Manny had a freaky strength and fitness, he hasn't shown since he was accused. Also there was a sparring partner that claimed he used to inject Manny in the locker room.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 30 Nov 2016, 9:35 am

Complete hypocrite toe rag who endorses political mass murder why wouldn't he agree to drug testing if he was clean


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Post by horizontalhero on Wed 30 Nov 2016, 9:37 am

BoxingFan88 wrote:
AdamT wrote:Not a fan of Ward then are you?

I hope it never comes out that Floyd or Manny were injecting PEDS (IMO they were) BF88. If that were the case you would have to brand them cheats as well.


Everyone is cheating using PEDs, it already happens (at least the large majority)

Unlike most people I like Ward's personality everytime I hear him in interviews I like listening to him

But seeing what he did in that ring is unforgivable

So yes, I don't like him anymore

Fouling has been part and parcel of the game since it began- and plenty of the greats excelled at it, Marciano, Sandler, Hopkins, Holyfield, Zivic, Grebb, Duran and on and on. If we start discounting foulers from having a legacy we would be writing off some of histories greatest fighters.

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Post by Derbymanc on Wed 30 Nov 2016, 9:40 am

they're both as bad as each other for making the fans wait so long for the fight

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Post by AdamT on Wed 30 Nov 2016, 9:44 am

Derbymanc wrote:they're both as bad as each other for making the fans wait so long for the fight

Big time!

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Post by AdamT on Wed 30 Nov 2016, 9:50 am

http://www.thisis50.com/profiles/blogs/i-injected-pacquiao-with

Probably nonsense!

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Wed 30 Nov 2016, 10:05 am

Rightly or wrongly an IV drip and Lidocaine (not proven) can't be deemed illegal if they're accompanied by a TUE.

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Post by Dylan1979 on Wed 30 Nov 2016, 10:44 am

You got me - I was off the mark with Floyd v Hatton.

Where the f**k did I get that one from?...It's been a long few days.

Prob's the image of Floyd in a Utd shirt to wind up Ricky got me thinking something else

My bad

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